@TNDS I dont think that eidolon of rhetoric is that good vs vizier company. If they have druid out, they cast vizier, in our turn fetch duskwatch, in their turn kill us. Just like ad nauseam, but at least vs ad nauseam eidolon stops them from chaining cantrips. Did your testing reveal something different?
I think that the card is really overrated vs burn. Almost everything they have is instant speed, so they can virtually play 2 spells per turn - that's almost no restriction for that deck, 2 spells per turn is what they're doing anyway.
@calebCalhoun For me, finks is a card I include whenever I want to be attacking, blocking and having great companies. When you cast it for 3 mana on turn 3 it's usually bad, but if you reveal reflector mage and finks out of a company the story is different. Of course great synergies with gavony township. I side it in vs dredge, burn, death and taxes, bant eldrazi, control...
@PastorCF I recently played vs UW control (beautiful games by the way) and while selfless is a nice card, they can just path it and next turn wrath the board. I wrote a long post some weeks ago about my vision on how to play that pairing.
Mana dorks are essential and I'm happy playing eight. I would play all the way up to 10 if there was another one with the power level of birds and hierarch. Hands without acceleration are so much worse than the ones with it. And don't count dorks for company purposes. Optimal number of hits is 20, and most lists play that number of 2 drops + 3 drops.
@dreadnaught33 I think that, for this deck, sideboards filled with creatures are more effective than the spell heavy ones. And there are some good spells for our SB: stony silence, explosives, blessed alliance, planeswalkers... but most of those functions can be covered effectively by creatures. Also, when sideboarding, if you have many noncreatures, the correct thing to do is boarding out some companies (so the remaining ones are more powerful) and that feels so bad... I don't want to put myself in that situation.
Retreat has been discussed a lot and for me it stays maindeck, as a 2 of, in every list I play. This deck is so good at winning good matchups game one (like, other midrange decks, some kinds of control and aggro) that you don't really mind having two dead cards vs them. It's like playing pre boarded games vs tron/valakut/ad nauseam, so at least we have more chances of stealing game one. And it isn't a completely dead card either, you can get some scry value, untap your creatures after attacking, tap opposing creatures with fetchlands, tap opposing elesh norns to swing for lethal
I think that the correct number of reflector mage MD is either 3 or 4. It's too good. It's as awkward as path.
Third ooze is reasonable, I had to cut it to fit the fourth reflector mage but it is a good card. I often boarded out the third ooze when I played that many, so playing only two didn't feel wrong. I don't like bojuka, feels narrow and low power level. I prefer having higher numbers of the good sideboard creatures (like teeg or staticaster). The third staticaster was something that I added today for this tournament and as you can see in the report, that card was perfect.
Any changes... I'm thinking about changing the 1 flooded strand for 1 green fetchland. Not being able of fetching my red source vs dredge tilted me really hard, but I'm unsure if it's what I should do. Other than that, the list was okay. I'll update my thoughts after playing more tournaments
I just finished top 4 at a local PPTQ. Lost the semifinals to a good matchup, but well variance happens. Other than that, I'm pretty happy with the list and my performance.
Round 1 vs Affinity won 2-0
G1 Double reflector mage was able to make me gain lots of tempo, while my opponent was stuck on 1 land.
G2 Nothing noteworthy
SB: +1 burrenton +2 finks +3 staticaster -2 retreat -3 voice -1 tracker
Round 2 vs Abzan midrange won 2-1
G1 lost to gideon ally of zendikar. Too good.
G2/3 Rough games, with some mulligans on my side, but I found a decent number of cocos to keep traction. Staticaster was a beast, killing lingering tokens and bob.
SB: +2 finks +1 tracker +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -2 birds of paradise
Round 3 vs Vizier Knightfall won 2-0
G1 My opponent wasn't able to assemble the combo, so it played like a mirror while I had queller and his creatures were weaker than mine (vizier for example). That situation favors me, and I won
G2 Kind of the same situation, but I had to kill some devoted druids.
SB: +2 negate +2 gaddock +1 finks +1 vendilion +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -3 voice -2 queller (I sided out queller and voice because it's awful when facing reflector mage)
Round 4 vs Abzan vizier won 2-0
G1 managed to path and reflect away some creatures and hit for the win
G2 kind of the same, but with way more tools. One sweet play: I managed to kill 3 birds of paradise with staticaster, with gavony activation on the stack.
SB: +2 negate +2 gaddock +1 vendilion +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -3 voice -1 flooded strand
Draw rounds 5 and 6, I finish first in the swiss, good tiebreakers.
Quarterfinals vs Goryo's Esper Gifts won 2-0
G1 he cast cantrips, lingering and reanimated jace VP. I casted creatures bigger than lingering, killed jace and left my opponent at three. He hardcasted Elesh norn, killed some of my creatures but not all of them. Next turn I drew retreat to coralhelm, tapped elesh norn and swung for the win
G2 was grindier, my board was wrathed a few times but I was able to attack my opponent until he was at 3. He reanimated elesh norn again, and killed some more creatures. I activated gavony few turns in a row because most of the creatures in my hand died immediately when hitting the field (like tracker and teeg). I then drew spell queller, flashed it end of turn, untapped, activated gavony and hit him for 1. Winning vs elesh norn, TWICE, felt good.
SB: +2 negate +2 teeg +1 vendilion +2 finks +1 tracker -2 retreat -2 qasali -4 reflector
Semifinals vs Dredge lost 1-2
G1 my opponent had a slow start and I had the retreat combo (in an already controlled board though, I didn't really need it but it was something to end the game fast)
G2 I kept a suuuper slow hand of 4 lands 2 knights 1 company. At that point in time it seemed like a good idea, but it's stupid don't keep hands that do nothing until turn 3 vs dredge please. I died and did literally zero damage to my opponent
G3 variance strikes. Mull a hand similar to the one in G2, keep a hand with 2 lands birds path staticaster company. Company got thoughtseized away and I just drew non red lands (unable to cast my staticaster).
SB: +1 burrenton +2 finks +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -1 tracker -1 queller
I'm a bit unsure on the dredge sideboard. I thought about siding gaddock teeg to stop conflagrate (which is one of dredge's main ways of dealing with our creatures or just closing the game. Anyway, they don't block well and die to collective brutality, which they play 4. Also, it really makes no sense, the dredge player oversideboarded vs me (sided black leyline, thoughtseize and more cards) and still managed to dredge consistently. Whatever, bad beats, but it was a fun day
List was okay, only thing that I would change would be to put all reflector mages mainboard. So many games were decided by him, I think 4 maindeck is necessary even though it's lackluster vs UW control and similar decks.
My performance in the main event wasn't impressive, at 2-3 drop. Two of the rounds were 1-2 losses, where the first two games I play perfectly but then I keep a sketchy hand and lose. I really need to be careful with my keeps.
Glad that my critique was useful and well received
This weekend I'm playing at a big tournament here in Spain (I met Trasno from this thread, good times) and even though the legacy part went really bad, I managed to win a trial (which grants me a Snapcaster and a Bye for the main event tomorrow). Knight of the reliquary is treating me better in modern than in legacy, that's for sure.
About the trials, First one I went 1-1. Won vs zooicide (grixis shadow with kiln fiend and lots of temur battle rage), lost vs tribal flames zoo (which is a better deck than I expected, I might try it sometimes). Second trial I won 3-0. First vs grixis control, then infect and finally eldrazi and taxes. As you can see, all five pairings were amazing for maindeck reflector mages.
Hopefully I can do well tomorrow at the main event. I'll post my list afterwards.
Lately I've felt like Eli is a much better player than deckbuilder (he has tons of finishes but his lists are all over the place) and that article just confirms my suspicions. It starts with many half-true statements and ends with a messy (to say the least) brew, I would take anything from that article with a grain of salt.
As I don't want to leave this post as unconstructive rant, I'll mention some of the things that are wrong (in my opinion, of course, but they seem so obvious to me that I don't think they're much debatable)
To play Collected Company, your relevant creature count (Birds of Paradise doesn't count) needs to be around 24
The number of hits isn't "around 24", it's exactly 20 and I already shared the math in this post.
Mackenzie Doyle recently finished in second place at an SCG Invitational Qualifier with an iteration of my favorite deck. After the list, I'll talk about some of the things I liked and didn't like about his version, and what we might want to try out in the new Modern metagame.
Many creatures in knightfall come down to personal preference, but I feel like right now 3-4 reflector mage is mandatory. This list has zero.
Do we really need artifact or enchantment destruction in the maindeck in Modern anymore?
If your plan isn't winning before turn 4, yes, no discussion. You just have to see any modern midrange/control deck. Jund and abzan play multiple maindeck decays, BG rock has even played the full set, GW value company has qasali and dromoka's command, UW has detention sphere and cast out, the list goes on and on. Of course we need qasali. Vizier knightfall lists move them to the sideboard because they're much faster, same as abzan company.
my argument would be that, in order to be effective against those decks, we would need a higher count of those effects to consistently bring them to the table effectively.
Each creature in this deck does something, and all of our one/two ofs combine to make a cohesive gameplan. We also have company to fetch our tools. To put things into perspective, let's say that you have 2 qasali pridemage in your deck and look at some probabilities.
33% Of finding one qasali since initial hand to the first four turns
51% Of finding one qasali "" if you mulligan a first hand without it
And let's say that you haven't found one yet. You cast your first company on turn 4, you have around 25% chance of finding one qasali.
I don't even know why this is being discussed in the article. Are we going to jam 4 copies of every important card just to "bringing them consistently to the table?" No, we play a few copies and have enough tools to find them. And as I said before, you don't need qasali in order to win vs ad nauseam, it's just one more tool to fight the matchup, and when we combine all of our one/two ofs we have big percentages of seeing relevant cards.
I don't have many other complaints about this list besides Tireless Tracker, which I've found to be a win more card. It's not very effective at helping this decks weaker matchups and it may be a little too mana-intensive for the speedy format that Modern is.
Tireless tracker isn't any faster than courser of kruphix or eternal witness. As all those cards, it's late game value, it helps you pick up with what other grindy decks are doing. I wouldn't call kolaghan/cryptic+snapcaster recursion "win more" in grixis control, neither sphinx's revelation in UW control, all those cards are what gives those decks the ability to come back and win in the late turns of the game, even when the opponent is ahead. Of course if the format was pushed towards combo/aggro you could win with fewer copies of those cards, but right now you need to grind a lot to win (games go very long vs both grixis shadow and eldrazi tron, which are top decks in the format) so those extra late game power is necessary.
This deck's weaknesses traditionally have been Eldrazi Tron, Kiki Chord, and TitanShift.
Some of the best cards vs eldrazi tron are reflector mage and tireless tracker, which eli isn't playing. TitanShift is bad, but many tech cards have been mentioned in this thread which have helped the matchup immensely in our favor (vendilion, teeg, burrenton, unified will), again cards that eli isn't playing. And since when has kikichord been a bad pairing? I've never had a problem there.
G/W Hatebears by Eli Kassis
As it has already been mentioned, it makes no sense to put knight in a deck with no fetchlands and leonin arbiter. This deck should really play ramunap excavator too, I don't know if it was legal at the time Eli played it. For the manabase, why 4 temple garden? I guess that it's for kotr, but both knight and the set of shocklands are bad ideas for many reasons.
I have only done one competitive League with it so far, but I had a 4-1 start.
This is where we go full circle. As I said before, Eli is a really good player and can pilot this deck to a good finish no matter the card choices. Anyway, I seriously think he should reevaluate his card choices and decissions overall, because the things I point out here are not even personal choices, are straight up wrong, and people reading that article are getting little benefit from it.
Went 2-0 vs merfolk, 2-1 vs UR storm, 2-0 vs grixis DS, 2-1 vs 4c humans
I really like how well tuned this version is. While vizier decks are cool, I feel like no one "broke" the archetype and the most optimal configuration is yet to be found (I think that four colors and reflector mage are steps in the right direction, but still don't know many other card choices).
Comments about card choices:
Selfless wasn't missed. It would be great in the humans matchup (you have the inevitability and selfless gives you turns to stabilize) and vs control, but those two slots were better occupied by voice and reflector mage.
The reflector mage maindeck crazyness. They're awesome in the current metagame, and maindecking them is correct. I could see coming back to selfless, courser and witness at some point in the future. In the end, both reflector and those cards are there to grind, just different ways to do so.
I'm splitting reflector mage and tracker 3/1 maindeck and 1/1 sideboard, which might seem weird, but there's a reason. Since we cut courser and witness we're pretty low on card advantage MB. Reflector mage is good most of the time, but there are matchups where it's dead or you don't need all 4 copies. The first copy of tracker has much more impact than the second one, and gives us that card advantage that we lost. Thus, I feel like 1 tracker has more value than the fourth reflector mage. Post sideboard, we have one more copy of each to adjust numbers as needed.
I'm pretty happy with the sideboard as it is now, but kitchen finks and eldritch evolution could be other cards. I really don't want to be vulnerable to grafdiggers cage.
One last comment on the humans matchup, as it's pretty new. I'll explain my view on the matchup, if someone disagrees or has any tips please let me know
On the play/on the draw matters a lot. Going first, playing a dork and then playing any three drop is really important. Best cards in the matchup are reflector mage, path and knight, followed up by voice and queller. Knight and fliers are what gives us the inevitability. Their best cards are reflector mage, champion of the parish and thalia's liutenant, those are the ones that allow their aggressive and tempo positive starts.
I would sideboard this way vs them:
-2 qasali (no targets other than RIP)
-2 ooze (leave only one copy, you want to draw it late in the game not early)
-2 retreat (they have RIP and we have inevitability, this isn't needed)
+2 kitchen finks (nice blocker)
+1 reflector mage +1 tireless tracker (grindy) On the play: +2 izzet staticaster (T2 staticaster on the play kills important pieces of their deck: their turn one dork, lieutenant, champion of the parish. On the draw it's too slow, and their creatures grow out of staticaster range) On the draw: +2 negate (Counters their collected company, which will come online faster than ours, and path. Also fringe stuff like worship in case they play that)
It's because her value is way under from a value engine perspective. You might as well play Domri, which CAN generate insane value from +1, kill their creatures, and an ultimate that offers a more reliable method of killing your opponent as opposed to making 2 5/5s that can just die.
True. Indeed, I ultimated nissa vs bant eldrazi and still lost. Effect is too temporary, definitely not one of the best ultimates out there.
I'm reading domri again and wow that card is soo close to being good. Changing his +1 just slightly (seeing 2 cards instead of one, or letting you choose if you put the card on top or bottom) would have made it great.
Just tested nissa a bit today (vs a friend, playing post board games of regular knightfall vs bant eldrazi, grixis shadow and jeskai control)
While I understimated the card, I feel like it's still not good enough. It's more of a silver bullet vs shadow decks than a real card for the deck to be honest. In the end, it doesn't solve any of the problems that the deck has. Quick overview.
+2 is unsynergistic with all the shuffling that this deck tends to do (I often had to fetch mainphase before +2). Courser of kruphix scry works better with what this deck does.
0 requires setup and grafdiggers cage shuts it off (and that card is boarded a lot vs this deck). In my experience, tireless tracker has been better for the card advantage
Removing her from the battlefield is quite easy. She has low starting loyalty and doesn't protect herself like gideon or elspeth. In addition to that, explosives for 2 kills her, and explosives is boarded vs us a lot too.
As soon as you face a grafdiggers cage, she turns into a slow scry engine, and that's definitely not what I want out of a planeswalker.
I can understand arguments for playing her in the vizier version since courser and tracker are not good cards there. But I don't think that it's worth it for regular knightfall.
A general comment, when checking lists from MTGO we should keep in mind that the online meta is super skewed towards death shadow. Some are playing nissa maindeck, mindcensor maindeck and even mirran crusader. That doesn't mean that those cards are good here, it just means that they are playing pre sideboarded games.
I was checking mtggoldfish and it seems like the abzan blue idea that I had yesterday already went 5-0 (it splashed the wrong 1UW card though). Don't want to discuss it a lot here since it's not knightfall and I don't want to go off topic but maybe someone is interested in checking interesting ideas.
Sideboard discussion
2x Path to Exile Versus decks that you need to remove creatures, you really need this, 2 seams little.
2x Izzet Staticaster Really wanted 3 of those, but wanted to try out some other cards as well.
1x Unified Will Awesome vs Tron, should have at least 2.
1x Negate Would want 2 of these as well. Missing the control from the ordinary Knightfall.
2x Worship I love this card, or I rather want to love it. It can really lock down some games, but I still don't know if it deserves its slots.
1x Kor Firewalker Burn silver bullet vs no burn. Haven't got a Burrenton Forge-Tender yet. Gonna change it for that later.
2x Blessed Alliance I really like this card, but I can't say that I had any use for it that day.
2x Nissa, Steward of Elements Kevin Chew recommended this vs Deaths Shadow. Didn't face it and only played it once. He had Pithing Needle. Still don't know if it's worth playing.
1x Mirran Crusader Expecting Jund decks, never got to use it versus them. Worth playing this silver bullet? Might still have to sac it because of Liliana.
1x Reclamation Sage vs Qasali Pridemage - The thing I like with the Sage is that you get to keep it after destroying the artifact or entchantment. Versus decks with much removal and aggro, I tend to like her more than the Pridemage.
Path here is different than in regular knightfall. This is first a combo deck, path is just to stay alive and remove hate pieces. You don't need too many of those. 2-3 are enough. You are not casting path "for value" here, you don't try to dominate the board.
Unified will is better than negate here. Kind of the same argument as path, counters are not there "for value", you have them to save whatever tries to disrupt your combo.
Worship does nothing. You can play one in regular knightfall (even though it's slow and most decks have outs to it) but here you don't need it. It just doesn't go with your gameplan.
Matchup discussion
Me and 9 friends are going to have our own Modern torunament and we have already locked in archetypes, the thing is that I don't know if I dare to play the Vizier combo with so much removal.
So my big question is do you play Knightfall or Vizier Knightfall versus these decks? I assume that many will be siding in Grafdigger's Cage and Rest in Peace, what is the best tactics versus that card? It makes me want to use Qasali Pridemages instead. Please come with your input.
Instant Reanimator I've got nothing versus this deck, how do you beat it? Counterspells, which they remove on turn one doesn't solve anything? Feels so consistent. Knightfall feels better here for more control?
Mono Black Control Vizier Knightfall better at outvalueing?
BW Lifegain Probably no bigger threat vs Vizier with infinity dmg.
Grixis Control Okey, this is my nightmare. So much removal and then Snapcaster Mage to pick it up again.
Blue Moon Also Snapcaster Mages, I really fear them for some reason.
Cheeri0s What is best, fast clock with Reflector Mage or trying to control him with the regular build? Eidolon of Rhetoric feels like a must here.
Eldra Tron I also kinda dread this deck, I assume a fast deck is better versus it and hope for little removal? What should I have in the SB or even MB versus this? Worth playing Magus of the Moon?
Elves Should be no problems with Vizier Knightfall.
Abzan Company Vizier Knightfall should have the edge here, because even if they get infinity life, I can do infinity dmg. 4 Reflector Mage main here also seams very important.
Vs instant reanimator, hope that they have a slow start. Many cards are relevant here but they are often slow, so if they go T2 combo you are usually dead. Otherwise, unified will can be useful. Regular knightfall is better in this matchup (more SB counters, queller, vendilion, better control deck overall than vizier)
What is mono black control, 8 rack? smallpox? devotion?
Vs lifegain decks, the combo version is a bit better (but not a lot).
Vs grixis control regular knightfall is way better than the combo.
Don't fear snapcaster, ooze is a good card. And play around blood moon, fetch basics or something and you're good to go.
Vs cheerios, regular knightfall is better (again, because it's a better control deck).
Don't fear eldrazi, reflector mage swings the matchup in your favor.
Agree that elves should be no problem with vizier. Regular knightfall has game too, but it depends a lot on how many staticasters your sideboard.
Abzan company matchup was discussed a lot some pages earlier, check it if you want.
Played vizier knightfall to a 4-0 finish in my local FNM, vs monoW d&t, abzan vizier and two affinity. Playing chew's list except for rhonas instead of ballista and 1 card in the SB (1 nissa steward instead of meddling mage). Some thoughts on the deck:
Reflector mage and izzet staticaster are absurd. With time I convinced myself on the power of reflector mage but I was hesitant on maindecking them. They overperformed today. They're really good at buying turns, and that's exactly what I wanted to do most games. Staticaster, when sided in, is super impactful (vs most affinity creatures and hate like aven mindcensor)
I have to agree with what kelvin said about ghost quarter and queller. This new deck is faster so you don't need to mess with quarter slowing tron or killing manlands. Queller wasn't needed either - since games are faster, there are less threats that worry you. The things that this deck cares about are dealt better with reflector mage.
Knight/retreat were lackluster. I did combo twice with retreat, but I feel like they're too unrelated to vizier combo that we shouldn't be playing them together.
After playing both abzan vizier and this version, I think that four colors is one step in the right direction, but the sideboard had many things which made no sense and knight+retreat don't belong here. Trying to think about what to add to the deck instead of those cards but I can't decide on which ideas are good or bad. I'll put some of them here in case someone wants to try them or reply why they are good/bad. Constructive criticism is welcome!
-2 retreat -2 knight for some combination of finks/tracker/tamiyo field researcher. Finks buys some turns and is good with vizier even without the sac outlet. It's really bad vs grafdiggers cage though, which is played a lot this days. Tracker is great because it fuels our hand and we have tons of mana to spare in the lategame (20 lands + 12 dorks). It fits a similar role to duskwatch, while duskwatch is also a combo piece, so it's probably not worth it. Tamiyo is a nice way to draw cards and/or prevent damage, I like her more than nissa steward of elements (which is slower and less powerful overall)
Splashing blue in the abzan shells. That would allow playing both combos (life and mana) and reflector mage. Red splash isn't needed since there's no knight to fetch for kessig and orzhov pontiff plays as a different staticaster.
So, I've been on an absolute tear with Kelvin's Vizier Knightfall mashup deck lately, putting up a 33-7 (!) result over the past 8 leagues
That's amazing. One question, do you think that the retreats are still useful in that deck? Both combos are a bit unrelated and it seems weird to run them together.
So I took a look at hour of devastation spoilers and I came across Ramunap Excavator. What do you think about it?
It's a great card, I have no doubt about it. I already bought two azusa for the reasons you mentioned. Anyway, I don't think it does that much for knightfall as it does for GW company (the one that Todd Stevens played). That deck already ran crucible and azusa, and has way more utility lands than we do (4 quarters and 2 horizon canopy).
A bit offtopic but I want to mention it. Trasno, I'll be going to Impact Returns at Naron. I guess that you will go there too (your description says that you live there) so we might be able to meet and talk about knightfall
How has the (eldrazi tron) matchup been in your experience? Any advice for me?
As Malko said, I feel like it's slightly favored. Reflector mage is a good card, same for blessed alliance. I want to discuss how to sideboard against them because I'm not totally sure. Advice is welcome.
-3 Birds of paradise (they usually keep the chalices because of path to exile, so maybe cutting some dorks is fine)
-1 Spell Queller (There are some targets, but not a lot of them. I usually want it as a flash flier, and vendilion is better for that)
-2 Selfless Spirit (does absolutely nothing)
-2 Retreat to Coralhelm (they usually run 4 relics in the 75, and combo is bad vs TKS)
-1 Courser -1 witness (not impactful enough)
+1 Gaddock Teeg (Stops karn, all is dust and late game chalices)
+3 Reflector mage
+2 Blessed alliance
+1 vendilion clique
+2 Unified will (I want to counter all is dust. This are okay, negate is probably too narrow)
+1 eldritch evolution
Looking for a bit of help with board. currently running 2 negate, 3 leyline, 2 Ref mage, 2 RIP, 2 Stony silence, 1 finks, 1 blessed alliance, 1 courser, and cant remember the last card atm. Local meta has a lot of burn , fish, and tron. Looking for some input if possible.
You could put a second ghost quarter and some unified wills for tron, one worship for merfolk and some anti burn card (courser/burrenton/rhox war monk) instead of leyline and RIP, which are mediocre cards in this deck.
How do you guys feel about the affinity matchup? I used to think that it was favorable but after losing a lot to them I'm starting to think otherwise. Currently have 2 staticaster and 1 eldritch evolution in the sideboard, in addition to 2 stony silence. Playing regular knightfall, no vizier.
Yes, the crucible creature is great for sure. I'll test him in GW company with 4 ghost quarters.
I was going to ask the same about the humans lists that I saw on mtggoldfish. Tribals are obviously powerful but how is that deck better than knightfall? If someone can give some insight it would be awesome
I think that the card is really overrated vs burn. Almost everything they have is instant speed, so they can virtually play 2 spells per turn - that's almost no restriction for that deck, 2 spells per turn is what they're doing anyway.
L: Maverick
@PastorCF I recently played vs UW control (beautiful games by the way) and while selfless is a nice card, they can just path it and next turn wrath the board. I wrote a long post some weeks ago about my vision on how to play that pairing.
Mana dorks are essential and I'm happy playing eight. I would play all the way up to 10 if there was another one with the power level of birds and hierarch. Hands without acceleration are so much worse than the ones with it. And don't count dorks for company purposes. Optimal number of hits is 20, and most lists play that number of 2 drops + 3 drops.
L: Maverick
Retreat has been discussed a lot and for me it stays maindeck, as a 2 of, in every list I play. This deck is so good at winning good matchups game one (like, other midrange decks, some kinds of control and aggro) that you don't really mind having two dead cards vs them. It's like playing pre boarded games vs tron/valakut/ad nauseam, so at least we have more chances of stealing game one. And it isn't a completely dead card either, you can get some scry value, untap your creatures after attacking, tap opposing creatures with fetchlands,
tap opposing elesh norns to swing for lethalI think that the correct number of reflector mage MD is either 3 or 4. It's too good. It's as awkward as path.
Third ooze is reasonable, I had to cut it to fit the fourth reflector mage but it is a good card. I often boarded out the third ooze when I played that many, so playing only two didn't feel wrong. I don't like bojuka, feels narrow and low power level. I prefer having higher numbers of the good sideboard creatures (like teeg or staticaster). The third staticaster was something that I added today for this tournament and as you can see in the report, that card was perfect.
Any changes... I'm thinking about changing the 1 flooded strand for 1 green fetchland. Not being able of fetching my red source vs dredge tilted me really hard, but I'm unsure if it's what I should do. Other than that, the list was okay. I'll update my thoughts after playing more tournaments
L: Maverick
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Reflector Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spell Queller
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Negate
2 Unified Will
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Izzet Staticaster
Round 1 vs Affinity won 2-0
G1 Double reflector mage was able to make me gain lots of tempo, while my opponent was stuck on 1 land.
G2 Nothing noteworthy
SB: +1 burrenton +2 finks +3 staticaster -2 retreat -3 voice -1 tracker
Round 2 vs Abzan midrange won 2-1
G1 lost to gideon ally of zendikar. Too good.
G2/3 Rough games, with some mulligans on my side, but I found a decent number of cocos to keep traction. Staticaster was a beast, killing lingering tokens and bob.
SB: +2 finks +1 tracker +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -2 birds of paradise
Round 3 vs Vizier Knightfall won 2-0
G1 My opponent wasn't able to assemble the combo, so it played like a mirror while I had queller and his creatures were weaker than mine (vizier for example). That situation favors me, and I won
G2 Kind of the same situation, but I had to kill some devoted druids.
SB: +2 negate +2 gaddock +1 finks +1 vendilion +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -3 voice -2 queller (I sided out queller and voice because it's awful when facing reflector mage)
Round 4 vs Abzan vizier won 2-0
G1 managed to path and reflect away some creatures and hit for the win
G2 kind of the same, but with way more tools. One sweet play: I managed to kill 3 birds of paradise with staticaster, with gavony activation on the stack.
SB: +2 negate +2 gaddock +1 vendilion +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -3 voice -1 flooded strand
Draw rounds 5 and 6, I finish first in the swiss, good tiebreakers.
Quarterfinals vs Goryo's Esper Gifts won 2-0
G1 he cast cantrips, lingering and reanimated jace VP. I casted creatures bigger than lingering, killed jace and left my opponent at three. He hardcasted Elesh norn, killed some of my creatures but not all of them. Next turn I drew retreat to coralhelm, tapped elesh norn and swung for the win
G2 was grindier, my board was wrathed a few times but I was able to attack my opponent until he was at 3. He reanimated elesh norn again, and killed some more creatures. I activated gavony few turns in a row because most of the creatures in my hand died immediately when hitting the field (like tracker and teeg). I then drew spell queller, flashed it end of turn, untapped, activated gavony and hit him for 1. Winning vs elesh norn, TWICE, felt good.
SB: +2 negate +2 teeg +1 vendilion +2 finks +1 tracker -2 retreat -2 qasali -4 reflector
Semifinals vs Dredge lost 1-2
G1 my opponent had a slow start and I had the retreat combo (in an already controlled board though, I didn't really need it but it was something to end the game fast)
G2 I kept a suuuper slow hand of 4 lands 2 knights 1 company. At that point in time it seemed like a good idea, but it's stupid don't keep hands that do nothing until turn 3 vs dredge please. I died and did literally zero damage to my opponent
G3 variance strikes. Mull a hand similar to the one in G2, keep a hand with 2 lands birds path staticaster company. Company got thoughtseized away and I just drew non red lands (unable to cast my staticaster).
SB: +1 burrenton +2 finks +3 staticaster -2 retreat -2 qasali -1 tracker -1 queller
I'm a bit unsure on the dredge sideboard. I thought about siding gaddock teeg to stop conflagrate (which is one of dredge's main ways of dealing with our creatures or just closing the game. Anyway, they don't block well and die to collective brutality, which they play 4. Also, it really makes no sense, the dredge player oversideboarded vs me (sided black leyline, thoughtseize and more cards) and still managed to dredge consistently. Whatever, bad beats, but it was a fun day
L: Maverick
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Reflector Mage
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spell Queller
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eldritch Evolution
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Unified Will
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Negate
1 Reflector Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
List was okay, only thing that I would change would be to put all reflector mages mainboard. So many games were decided by him, I think 4 maindeck is necessary even though it's lackluster vs UW control and similar decks.
My performance in the main event wasn't impressive, at 2-3 drop. Two of the rounds were 1-2 losses, where the first two games I play perfectly but then I keep a sketchy hand and lose. I really need to be careful with my keeps.
L: Maverick
This weekend I'm playing at a big tournament here in Spain (I met Trasno from this thread, good times) and even though the legacy part went really bad, I managed to win a trial (which grants me a Snapcaster and a Bye for the main event tomorrow). Knight of the reliquary is treating me better in modern than in legacy, that's for sure.
About the trials, First one I went 1-1. Won vs zooicide (grixis shadow with kiln fiend and lots of temur battle rage), lost vs tribal flames zoo (which is a better deck than I expected, I might try it sometimes). Second trial I won 3-0. First vs grixis control, then infect and finally eldrazi and taxes. As you can see, all five pairings were amazing for maindeck reflector mages.
Hopefully I can do well tomorrow at the main event. I'll post my list afterwards.
L: Maverick
As I don't want to leave this post as unconstructive rant, I'll mention some of the things that are wrong (in my opinion, of course, but they seem so obvious to me that I don't think they're much debatable)
The number of hits isn't "around 24", it's exactly 20 and I already shared the math in this post.
Many creatures in knightfall come down to personal preference, but I feel like right now 3-4 reflector mage is mandatory. This list has zero.
If your plan isn't winning before turn 4, yes, no discussion. You just have to see any modern midrange/control deck. Jund and abzan play multiple maindeck decays, BG rock has even played the full set, GW value company has qasali and dromoka's command, UW has detention sphere and cast out, the list goes on and on. Of course we need qasali. Vizier knightfall lists move them to the sideboard because they're much faster, same as abzan company.
Each creature in this deck does something, and all of our one/two ofs combine to make a cohesive gameplan. We also have company to fetch our tools. To put things into perspective, let's say that you have 2 qasali pridemage in your deck and look at some probabilities.
33% Of finding one qasali since initial hand to the first four turns
51% Of finding one qasali "" if you mulligan a first hand without it
And let's say that you haven't found one yet. You cast your first company on turn 4, you have around 25% chance of finding one qasali.
I don't even know why this is being discussed in the article. Are we going to jam 4 copies of every important card just to "bringing them consistently to the table?" No, we play a few copies and have enough tools to find them. And as I said before, you don't need qasali in order to win vs ad nauseam, it's just one more tool to fight the matchup, and when we combine all of our one/two ofs we have big percentages of seeing relevant cards.
Tireless tracker isn't any faster than courser of kruphix or eternal witness. As all those cards, it's late game value, it helps you pick up with what other grindy decks are doing. I wouldn't call kolaghan/cryptic+snapcaster recursion "win more" in grixis control, neither sphinx's revelation in UW control, all those cards are what gives those decks the ability to come back and win in the late turns of the game, even when the opponent is ahead. Of course if the format was pushed towards combo/aggro you could win with fewer copies of those cards, but right now you need to grind a lot to win (games go very long vs both grixis shadow and eldrazi tron, which are top decks in the format) so those extra late game power is necessary.
Some of the best cards vs eldrazi tron are reflector mage and tireless tracker, which eli isn't playing. TitanShift is bad, but many tech cards have been mentioned in this thread which have helped the matchup immensely in our favor (vendilion, teeg, burrenton, unified will), again cards that eli isn't playing. And since when has kikichord been a bad pairing? I've never had a problem there.
As it has already been mentioned, it makes no sense to put knight in a deck with no fetchlands and leonin arbiter. This deck should really play ramunap excavator too, I don't know if it was legal at the time Eli played it. For the manabase, why 4 temple garden? I guess that it's for kotr, but both knight and the set of shocklands are bad ideas for many reasons.
This is where we go full circle. As I said before, Eli is a really good player and can pilot this deck to a good finish no matter the card choices. Anyway, I seriously think he should reevaluate his card choices and decissions overall, because the things I point out here are not even personal choices, are straight up wrong, and people reading that article are getting little benefit from it.
L: Maverick
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Instants
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
//Creatures
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Reflector Mage
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spell Queller
1 Tireless Tracker
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Eldritch Evolution
2 Negate
2 Unified Will
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Reflector Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
Went 2-0 vs merfolk, 2-1 vs UR storm, 2-0 vs grixis DS, 2-1 vs 4c humans
I really like how well tuned this version is. While vizier decks are cool, I feel like no one "broke" the archetype and the most optimal configuration is yet to be found (I think that four colors and reflector mage are steps in the right direction, but still don't know many other card choices).
Comments about card choices:
One last comment on the humans matchup, as it's pretty new. I'll explain my view on the matchup, if someone disagrees or has any tips please let me know
On the play/on the draw matters a lot. Going first, playing a dork and then playing any three drop is really important. Best cards in the matchup are reflector mage, path and knight, followed up by voice and queller. Knight and fliers are what gives us the inevitability. Their best cards are reflector mage, champion of the parish and thalia's liutenant, those are the ones that allow their aggressive and tempo positive starts.
I would sideboard this way vs them:
-2 qasali (no targets other than RIP)
-2 ooze (leave only one copy, you want to draw it late in the game not early)
-2 retreat (they have RIP and we have inevitability, this isn't needed)
+2 kitchen finks (nice blocker)
+1 reflector mage +1 tireless tracker (grindy)
On the play: +2 izzet staticaster (T2 staticaster on the play kills important pieces of their deck: their turn one dork, lieutenant, champion of the parish. On the draw it's too slow, and their creatures grow out of staticaster range)
On the draw: +2 negate (Counters their collected company, which will come online faster than ours, and path. Also fringe stuff like worship in case they play that)
L: Maverick
True. Indeed, I ultimated nissa vs bant eldrazi and still lost. Effect is too temporary, definitely not one of the best ultimates out there.
I'm reading domri again and wow that card is soo close to being good. Changing his +1 just slightly (seeing 2 cards instead of one, or letting you choose if you put the card on top or bottom) would have made it great.
L: Maverick
While I understimated the card, I feel like it's still not good enough. It's more of a silver bullet vs shadow decks than a real card for the deck to be honest. In the end, it doesn't solve any of the problems that the deck has. Quick overview.
I can understand arguments for playing her in the vizier version since courser and tracker are not good cards there. But I don't think that it's worth it for regular knightfall.
A general comment, when checking lists from MTGO we should keep in mind that the online meta is super skewed towards death shadow. Some are playing nissa maindeck, mindcensor maindeck and even mirran crusader. That doesn't mean that those cards are good here, it just means that they are playing pre sideboarded games.
L: Maverick
Path here is different than in regular knightfall. This is first a combo deck, path is just to stay alive and remove hate pieces. You don't need too many of those. 2-3 are enough. You are not casting path "for value" here, you don't try to dominate the board.
Unified will is better than negate here. Kind of the same argument as path, counters are not there "for value", you have them to save whatever tries to disrupt your combo.
Worship does nothing. You can play one in regular knightfall (even though it's slow and most decks have outs to it) but here you don't need it. It just doesn't go with your gameplan.
Vs instant reanimator, hope that they have a slow start. Many cards are relevant here but they are often slow, so if they go T2 combo you are usually dead. Otherwise, unified will can be useful. Regular knightfall is better in this matchup (more SB counters, queller, vendilion, better control deck overall than vizier)
What is mono black control, 8 rack? smallpox? devotion?
Vs lifegain decks, the combo version is a bit better (but not a lot).
Vs grixis control regular knightfall is way better than the combo.
Don't fear snapcaster, ooze is a good card. And play around blood moon, fetch basics or something and you're good to go.
Vs cheerios, regular knightfall is better (again, because it's a better control deck).
Don't fear eldrazi, reflector mage swings the matchup in your favor.
Agree that elves should be no problem with vizier. Regular knightfall has game too, but it depends a lot on how many staticasters your sideboard.
Abzan company matchup was discussed a lot some pages earlier, check it if you want.
L: Maverick
L: Maverick
That's amazing. One question, do you think that the retreats are still useful in that deck? Both combos are a bit unrelated and it seems weird to run them together.
It's a great card, I have no doubt about it. I already bought two azusa for the reasons you mentioned. Anyway, I don't think it does that much for knightfall as it does for GW company (the one that Todd Stevens played). That deck already ran crucible and azusa, and has way more utility lands than we do (4 quarters and 2 horizon canopy).
A bit offtopic but I want to mention it. Trasno, I'll be going to Impact Returns at Naron. I guess that you will go there too (your description says that you live there) so we might be able to meet and talk about knightfall
As Malko said, I feel like it's slightly favored. Reflector mage is a good card, same for blessed alliance. I want to discuss how to sideboard against them because I'm not totally sure. Advice is welcome.
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
1 Spellskite
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Eldritch Evolution
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Unified Will
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Negate
3 Reflector Mage
2 Izzet Staticaster
-3 Birds of paradise (they usually keep the chalices because of path to exile, so maybe cutting some dorks is fine)
-1 Spell Queller (There are some targets, but not a lot of them. I usually want it as a flash flier, and vendilion is better for that)
-2 Selfless Spirit (does absolutely nothing)
-2 Retreat to Coralhelm (they usually run 4 relics in the 75, and combo is bad vs TKS)
-1 Courser -1 witness (not impactful enough)
+1 Gaddock Teeg (Stops karn, all is dust and late game chalices)
+3 Reflector mage
+2 Blessed alliance
+1 vendilion clique
+2 Unified will (I want to counter all is dust. This are okay, negate is probably too narrow)
+1 eldritch evolution
You could put a second ghost quarter and some unified wills for tron, one worship for merfolk and some anti burn card (courser/burrenton/rhox war monk) instead of leyline and RIP, which are mediocre cards in this deck.
L: Maverick
L: Maverick
I was going to ask the same about the humans lists that I saw on mtggoldfish. Tribals are obviously powerful but how is that deck better than knightfall? If someone can give some insight it would be awesome
L: Maverick