Those were my suspicions... Too bad they can't just print counterspell again. What's your counterspell breakdown?
I'm currently playing 4 Remand 2 Cryptic + 2 Vendilion (not really counters but fulfil a similar role) maindeck, I wanted all cycling counters in the case that I topdecked them when I didn't need them, and as Paradox Omega just pointed out I run a heavy counterspell suite in the sideboard to compensate against combo decks (3 counterflux 2 flashfreeze).
I just found that in my metagame I'm more likely to stumble upon aggro/midrange/creature based combo decks than spell based combo so I'm less inclined to play a lot of counters maindeck.
I've been thinking of replacing my Leaks for Cryptics but the triple blue seems a bit scary as well as the fact that it only turns on T4+. Is it truly worth it? I feel like Cryptics may be rather underwhelming in this metagame. Maintaining tempo with cheaper spells may be more important than pure card advantage.
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I've recently been thinking about how to deal with my counterspell suite and I recently cut Spell Snare. It's usually the best against aggro or burn or hitting a tarmogoyf but our deck has pretty good ways of dealing with those decks anyways (Lightning Helix/Bolt and Path to Exile) so I cut Spell Snare entirely. Currently I'm running 4 Remand and 2 Mana Leak, while replacing my two new open slots with two new cards for the grindy matchups (1 Rev and a 3rd Electrolyze, still subject to change). I've left my heavy counterspells in the SB (2 Counterflux, 1 Negate, 1 Dispel) for the combo/control matchups. Yes, having only 6 relatively weak and not necessarily permament counterspells in the main might make us weak to combo but if we're not running Cryptics we don't have much other choice. That's why we may need to run a counterspell heavy SB while having a better grindy matchups for the mainboard. Still testing, though, and in the end it may very well be meta dependent.
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Timely reinforcements was brilliant for me against burn. It's also great versus Affinity. I would play an extra EE if bogles is big.
I reckon supreme verdict is sideboard material in this deck, as it won't help you if you're beating down with geists/restos.
If you want spell snares, it's not bad to cut a mana leak, a remand and/or a 5drop for 1 or 2
@Paradox
I have a small write-up of my previous tournament a few pages back. It's not much, but hey...
Ajani from the sideboard was amazing for me against a GB rock deck, and against affinity. The three times I cast it in the post-sideboard games it completely took over and won me the game. Burn is also popular now, and it's very good against them. I swapped Ajani for a Cryptic as Cryptic kinda underperformed for me. I don't think you need the 4rd helix per se, it's quite bad against junk/jund type decks, and you have quite a lot of removal already with 4 paths/4 bolt/2electrolyze!
I was thinking of changing the rev slot to a stony silence or wrath effect for the affinity matchup. I changed stony silence to timely before, since it's also good against affinity and burn is so prevalent. I don't foresee myself taking relics out of the sideboard though, as they have been amazing for me in a lot of matchups and I side them in a lot. Vjeran Horvat (well-known UWR player), also frequently said that relic from the side was amazing!
I've been playing lists similar to this for quite some time, and it's performing quite well! You have a decent matchup against most decks, no real stinkers in there. Then again also no real easy matchups :). The sideboard plan is the most integral part of the whole deck. You can't just add some hate cards to the shell and expect to win, a lot of matchups stand or break depending on how many answers you have to reply to their gameplan. This is especially true because you are basically a worse aggro deck than affinity/zoo, you are a worse control deck than UWR, and you are a worse midrange deck than junk. Finding the proper role in each matchup, or even each turn, is really tricky!
If you play basically the same sideboard, can you put your sideboard plan against mine and suggest changes for me based on your experience?
Fair enough, I'll go ahead and test the Ajani for the Helix and see how it works.
Batterskull is self explanatory. Stony Silence for affinity. 2 Wear // Tear for their versatility, 1
Celestial Purge for blood moon/Abzan. 2 Negates for control/combo, as is Counterflux. Wrath of God for Zoo and Affinity, a relic for graveyard hate, Reinforcements for burn/Aggro/affinity and engineered explosives for affinity/Aggro, boggles, and especially BW tokens. X = 2 or x = 0 feel equally good against them.
Things I've thought about: Kor Firewalker or Timely Reinforcements? Maybe swap 1 Negate for 1 dispel? Any room for a Sowing Salt for Tron? And on that topic, is Sowing Salt even worth it? Open to other suggestions.
EDIT: didn't see you wanted suggestions for change. Honestly I don't have specific criticisms. Only things I'm not convinced for you are the Rev and 2nd relic, but if they work for you I can't say otherwise. I tried both and I never found the relics highly relevant. Rev usually got taken away by discard vs Abzan although the games I popped it off if felt great. It just feels too narrow of a SB card to really carry its own weight.
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Basically -1 Cryptic command as they underperformed during the previosu PPTQ. Added Ajani to the mainboard as it overperformed. Added a Sphinx's Revelation in the sideboard as a replacement for the matchups where cryptic is great (rock decks, twin, uwr control), mostly as a test because GreatNate likes it. After losing against affinity's etched champion two games in the PTQ it's quite possible this should be a supreme verdict or wrath of god though.
I'll be playing two local tournaments this week, and a few more rounds of PPTQs the following week.
Me and you have nearly identical lists. I run the same creature base, but run a full set of Remands instead of a 2-2 split with Cryptic and run the 4th Helix over Ajani Vengeant. How has Vengeant done for you? I'm very interested in swapping out the 4th Helix for it but I'm afraid the lack of instant speed as well as being 4 mana might not be worth it. Is the +1 and potential re-usability of the -2 worth it? How do you fair against Burn or Aggro without the 4th Helix?
Our sideboards are nearly identical as well except I choose 2 Stony Silence over the Rev and 2nd Relic because we need something to combat tron and affinity.
How has the list worked for you? What worked and what didn't?
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I've found Cryptic Command to be strong in topdeck wars, tapping for getting Geist damage through, and plain strong permission/card advantage in general. Also cycling is nice. But it's hard on the manabase, I'd run at least 3 basic islands in the list. I'd run 2 Cryptics max, any more is clunky and too control-y. I'm not even convinced 2 is the right number in my list, might go down to 1 or 0. But so far it's been okay.
For 5 drops, Thundermaw Hellkite is strong in an Abzan heavy meta as is Batterskull. I've never tested Baneslayer Angel, but I'd imagine it's too vulnerable. No impact when it hits the board like Thundermaw and no persistency like Batterskull. But it could be really strong in the right meta. Just too vulnerable and slow for my tastes. Keranos, God of Storms can be good in the right situation, especially if you're maintaining tempo. Unfortunately, when you're behind, you generally stay behind which is why I don't like it at 5cmc.
Batterskull > Thundermaw > Baneslayer >= Keranos in my opinion, but it'll vary per list. Keranos is probably better in a more control-oriented list. So in the end it just sort of depends on what you're trying to do.
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Leaks and Snares are bad in this deck. Remand and Cryptic are fine because in the worst case they just cycle.
I personally disagree. There are a lot of problematic 2-drops as well as the 2-mana counter spells. I've snarred plenty of goyfs and counters targeting a Geist. I guess it's relevant that it doesn't cycle but it's cheap and it removes the tempo loss from being on the draw against an aggressive deck.
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I'm not convinced on Valorous Stance because even though it has two solid modes, it can be a dead card in some match ups. We already run 4 Path maindeck (usually) which can also be a dead card in some match ups so committing a 5th card similar in the maindeck is not my intention. I'm simply not convinced that it deserves spots on the SB either. I could be completely wrong, but I'd personally only put 1 Stance at most in the SB, there's just some other cards that deserve the space more. It is rather efficient against the big butts in Abzan, I admit, but we already run 4 Path and an assortment of burn spells. Overloading on creature removal will make you weaker in other match ups. But hey, if it works for you it works for you.
Decided against Mana Leaks because they're horrible topdecks even though they're strong early game. No Valorous Stance either as I'd like to see that card's result in some tournaments before I commit to it.
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With Lilly around, wouldn't it be a good idea to start playing Blade Splicers in geist's slot? Extra value with Resto blinks
It's been discussed at great length earlier in this thread so you can go back and take a look.
My perspective on it is that while Geist of Saint Traft lacks in the Abzan or heavy creature/Aggro match ups, he more than makes up for in every other match up. If you expect an extreme creature heavy meta then you can go the Blade Splicer route and also go heavier on the Restoration Angels. However, through personal experience, I have won off the back of an unanswered Geist more times than I can count. He simply can't be removed without a board sweep or a sac effect (or chump block, but the deck is designed to make sure that never happens). Splicer shines in a grindy meta while Geist shines in a noncreature meta. I think we can know for a fact that combo is still very much alive (Twin, Amulet) and while Abzan stops Geist in its tracks at times, it's just not worth losing in every other matchup.
But that's just my personal opinion and experience. I think both have their advantages and disadvantages and it's up to the player to decide how they want to take the deck. You can't just replace Geist with Splicer, the deck does need to accommodate each to some extent. Splicer likes Resto more than Geist (also opens up other ETB shenanigans), while Geist likes a bigger burn suite to back him up.
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Hi everyone. I just picked up this deck recently. I was hoping to get some advice on my SB/MB numbers. Currently I want to run without cryptics and go for a more aggressive version. For reference, my meta has lots of burn, lots of aggro (affinity,mono-green,soul sisters,hatebears), some twin, some junk, some U tron, and a few storm/ad nauseam. Still trying out Valorous Stance.
I may be wrong because of course I haven't tested out your list, but from a glance, 4 Restos with very little ways to abuse her seems like a bad, clunky plan. They're strong, resilient creatures but they have too little impact in my opinion. At T4 you're not racing Aggro with them and combo just doesn't care. I'd suggest swapping 1-2 of them for more interaction based cards that still interact with the opponent like a Vendilion Clique (or two) which are still strong, evasive clocks.
I'm personally hesitant on overloading on Mana Leaks because they are horrible topdecks and when you play 4 Path to Exile they get even worse as the game goes on. I know you prefer to go without Cryptic Command, so maybe try Spell Snare. Tons of 2 drops in the format that it hits (burn, affinity, goyf, remand/leak to name a few).
Also, why Wurmcoil Engine over Batterskull in the side? While Wurmcoil nets some value when it dies, Batterskull just doesn't die and can even equip to a Geist/Snap/Resto/anything.
Can't say much about the Valorous Stance in SB but I still think 4 in your 75 is way too much.
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What do people think of Vendilion Clique in the current meta? Worth a slot or too vulnerable without enough upside? What about Sphinx's Revelation, or is it too slow to maindeck in a non-control build?
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1x o 2x Thundermaw Hellkite?
I see some list runnin 2x on main, and others runnin 1x main and 1x sideboard
Others decks just run 1x on main
Whats the good idea? I dont know if buy 1x or 2x of
I personally run 1 main. Running 2 main seems clunky, you never want to see it early because it will get stuck in your hand. 2 in the main vs Abzan might be good but vs the combo or aggro decks out there you'd wish you had something else.
Abzan, which is our worst match up, the Geists all get sided out and it turns more into control. I think that's our only option vs Abzan. Bring in the Celestial Purge, Wrath of God, Rest in Peace, and Batterskull, maybe even Counterflux for more hard counters.
Our other match ups seem solid.
-Affinity is okay pre-sideboard if you can hit the right cards (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile) and they're not going crazy.
-Twin is tough, we just have to never tap out. Post-SB gets easier w/ Celestial Purge, Combust, Counterflux, etc.
-Burn is also tough, Kor Firewalker comes in from the side and hope to hit your Helix's and counter some burn spells while racing with a Geist
-Have yet to play an Amulet deck
-Abzan...well, it's tough. Not unwinnable, but tough.
-Tron is raceable with a Geist, if you don't see any Geists, control them until you do. Post-SB gets easier.
-Scapeshift, try to drop a Geist and race them. Play counter spells to stop them, hope they don't get the combo too quick.
There are others but those are gonna be the big decks in my opinion.
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Had to cut my Digs and the deck was definitely lacking. I decided to squeeze in 4 Serum Visions and a 3rd Electrolyze while upping Remand to 4 copies so the deck can run a lot more smoothly. I decided to cut Forked Bolt entirely from the 75 because I don't suspect Delver will be as rampant. However, I did find them useful for handling T1 dorks.
What are people's opinions on Forked Bolt in the upcoming meta? Also, is 4 Lightning Helix the right play for this metagame? How about the 3 copies of Path to Exile, should we be expecting a more creature-focused meta or is 4 overkill due to decks like Scapeshift?
I'm running a list that's a bit lower on the curve than some of the decks I've seen people post here. Running 23 lands isn't a problem with all my cantripping. Unfortunately, I do miss out on running even a singleton copy of Sphinx's Revelation because that's too much of a risk while only playing 23 lands. Also, I'm probably going to cut 1 Sacred Foundry for a 3rd Steam Vents once I can get my hands on one. Also looking for an Eiganjo Castle as well, do you all think that cutting a Glacial Fortress for one of those is a good idea? If not, what other land should be cut? Also thinking about finding room for a single Vendilion Clique instead of 1 Restoration Angel, thoughts?
My SB is still pre-ban and it's mostly geared toward combo but I may have to change that as the metagame develops. I've heard people talking about the usefulness of cards like Combust. Is it the real deal? Worth a spot in the SB? Any other SB cards that I should be thinking about?
Any suggestions for the MB or SB are very welcome.
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I've been thinking of replacing my Leaks for Cryptics but the triple blue seems a bit scary as well as the fact that it only turns on T4+. Is it truly worth it? I feel like Cryptics may be rather underwhelming in this metagame. Maintaining tempo with cheaper spells may be more important than pure card advantage.
Fair enough, I'll go ahead and test the Ajani for the Helix and see how it works.
1 Batterskull
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
2 Negate
1 Wrath of God
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Counterflux
2 Engineered Explosives
Batterskull is self explanatory. Stony Silence for affinity. 2 Wear // Tear for their versatility, 1
Celestial Purge for blood moon/Abzan. 2 Negates for control/combo, as is Counterflux. Wrath of God for Zoo and Affinity, a relic for graveyard hate, Reinforcements for burn/Aggro/affinity and engineered explosives for affinity/Aggro, boggles, and especially BW tokens. X = 2 or x = 0 feel equally good against them.
Things I've thought about: Kor Firewalker or Timely Reinforcements? Maybe swap 1 Negate for 1 dispel? Any room for a Sowing Salt for Tron? And on that topic, is Sowing Salt even worth it? Open to other suggestions.
EDIT: didn't see you wanted suggestions for change. Honestly I don't have specific criticisms. Only things I'm not convinced for you are the Rev and 2nd relic, but if they work for you I can't say otherwise. I tried both and I never found the relics highly relevant. Rev usually got taken away by discard vs Abzan although the games I popped it off if felt great. It just feels too narrow of a SB card to really carry its own weight.
Me and you have nearly identical lists. I run the same creature base, but run a full set of Remands instead of a 2-2 split with Cryptic and run the 4th Helix over Ajani Vengeant. How has Vengeant done for you? I'm very interested in swapping out the 4th Helix for it but I'm afraid the lack of instant speed as well as being 4 mana might not be worth it. Is the +1 and potential re-usability of the -2 worth it? How do you fair against Burn or Aggro without the 4th Helix?
Our sideboards are nearly identical as well except I choose 2 Stony Silence over the Rev and 2nd Relic because we need something to combat tron and affinity.
How has the list worked for you? What worked and what didn't?
For 5 drops, Thundermaw Hellkite is strong in an Abzan heavy meta as is Batterskull. I've never tested Baneslayer Angel, but I'd imagine it's too vulnerable. No impact when it hits the board like Thundermaw and no persistency like Batterskull. But it could be really strong in the right meta. Just too vulnerable and slow for my tastes. Keranos, God of Storms can be good in the right situation, especially if you're maintaining tempo. Unfortunately, when you're behind, you generally stay behind which is why I don't like it at 5cmc.
Batterskull > Thundermaw > Baneslayer >= Keranos in my opinion, but it'll vary per list. Keranos is probably better in a more control-oriented list. So in the end it just sort of depends on what you're trying to do.
I personally disagree. There are a lot of problematic 2-drops as well as the 2-mana counter spells. I've snarred plenty of goyfs and counters targeting a Geist. I guess it's relevant that it doesn't cycle but it's cheap and it removes the tempo loss from being on the draw against an aggressive deck.
The list I'm currently on is:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Restoration Angel
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Instants/Sorceries (22):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightnig Helix
4 Path to Exile
2 Cryptic Command
2 Spell Snare
4 Remand
2 Electrolyze
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Batterskull
2 Stony Silence
1 Wrath of God
2 Wear // Tear
2 Celestial Purge
1 Dispel
1 Sowing Salt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Timely Reinforcements
2 Counterflux
Decided against Mana Leaks because they're horrible topdecks even though they're strong early game. No Valorous Stance either as I'd like to see that card's result in some tournaments before I commit to it.
It's been discussed at great length earlier in this thread so you can go back and take a look.
My perspective on it is that while Geist of Saint Traft lacks in the Abzan or heavy creature/Aggro match ups, he more than makes up for in every other match up. If you expect an extreme creature heavy meta then you can go the Blade Splicer route and also go heavier on the Restoration Angels. However, through personal experience, I have won off the back of an unanswered Geist more times than I can count. He simply can't be removed without a board sweep or a sac effect (or chump block, but the deck is designed to make sure that never happens). Splicer shines in a grindy meta while Geist shines in a noncreature meta. I think we can know for a fact that combo is still very much alive (Twin, Amulet) and while Abzan stops Geist in its tracks at times, it's just not worth losing in every other matchup.
But that's just my personal opinion and experience. I think both have their advantages and disadvantages and it's up to the player to decide how they want to take the deck. You can't just replace Geist with Splicer, the deck does need to accommodate each to some extent. Splicer likes Resto more than Geist (also opens up other ETB shenanigans), while Geist likes a bigger burn suite to back him up.
I may be wrong because of course I haven't tested out your list, but from a glance, 4 Restos with very little ways to abuse her seems like a bad, clunky plan. They're strong, resilient creatures but they have too little impact in my opinion. At T4 you're not racing Aggro with them and combo just doesn't care. I'd suggest swapping 1-2 of them for more interaction based cards that still interact with the opponent like a Vendilion Clique (or two) which are still strong, evasive clocks.
I'm personally hesitant on overloading on Mana Leaks because they are horrible topdecks and when you play 4 Path to Exile they get even worse as the game goes on. I know you prefer to go without Cryptic Command, so maybe try Spell Snare. Tons of 2 drops in the format that it hits (burn, affinity, goyf, remand/leak to name a few).
Also, why Wurmcoil Engine over Batterskull in the side? While Wurmcoil nets some value when it dies, Batterskull just doesn't die and can even equip to a Geist/Snap/Resto/anything.
Can't say much about the Valorous Stance in SB but I still think 4 in your 75 is way too much.
I personally run 1 main. Running 2 main seems clunky, you never want to see it early because it will get stuck in your hand. 2 in the main vs Abzan might be good but vs the combo or aggro decks out there you'd wish you had something else.
The list I'm running:
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
Instants/Sorceries 23
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Mana Leak
4 Remand
3 Cryptic Command
2 Electrolyze
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Batterskull
2 Stony Silence
1 Wrath of God
2 Wear // Tear
2 Celestial Purge
1 Combust
1 Sowing Salt
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
1 Counterflux
Abzan, which is our worst match up, the Geists all get sided out and it turns more into control. I think that's our only option vs Abzan. Bring in the Celestial Purge, Wrath of God, Rest in Peace, and Batterskull, maybe even Counterflux for more hard counters.
Do you guys side out some/all of your Snapcaster Mage when you bring in Rest in Peace? It shuts down Tarmogoyf and Lingering Souls flashback, but it does hurt our own flashback. Maybe SB out 1-2 along with the Geist of Saint Traft to make it more control-oriented? Or do we pull out the Remand/Lightning Helix vs Abzan?
Our other match ups seem solid.
-Affinity is okay pre-sideboard if you can hit the right cards (Lightning Bolt, Lightning Helix, Path to Exile) and they're not going crazy.
-Twin is tough, we just have to never tap out. Post-SB gets easier w/ Celestial Purge, Combust, Counterflux, etc.
-Burn is also tough, Kor Firewalker comes in from the side and hope to hit your Helix's and counter some burn spells while racing with a Geist
-Have yet to play an Amulet deck
-Abzan...well, it's tough. Not unwinnable, but tough.
-Tron is raceable with a Geist, if you don't see any Geists, control them until you do. Post-SB gets easier.
-Scapeshift, try to drop a Geist and race them. Play counter spells to stop them, hope they don't get the combo too quick.
There are others but those are gonna be the big decks in my opinion.
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Island
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Sulfur Falls
4 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Restoration Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells 26
4 Serum Visions
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Remand
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
3 Electrolyze
3 Aven Mindcensor
1 Batterskull
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Counterflux
2 Wear // Tear
1 Celestial Purge
1 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Anger of the Gods
Had to cut my Digs and the deck was definitely lacking. I decided to squeeze in 4 Serum Visions and a 3rd Electrolyze while upping Remand to 4 copies so the deck can run a lot more smoothly. I decided to cut Forked Bolt entirely from the 75 because I don't suspect Delver will be as rampant. However, I did find them useful for handling T1 dorks.
What are people's opinions on Forked Bolt in the upcoming meta? Also, is 4 Lightning Helix the right play for this metagame? How about the 3 copies of Path to Exile, should we be expecting a more creature-focused meta or is 4 overkill due to decks like Scapeshift?
I'm running a list that's a bit lower on the curve than some of the decks I've seen people post here. Running 23 lands isn't a problem with all my cantripping. Unfortunately, I do miss out on running even a singleton copy of Sphinx's Revelation because that's too much of a risk while only playing 23 lands. Also, I'm probably going to cut 1 Sacred Foundry for a 3rd Steam Vents once I can get my hands on one. Also looking for an Eiganjo Castle as well, do you all think that cutting a Glacial Fortress for one of those is a good idea? If not, what other land should be cut? Also thinking about finding room for a single Vendilion Clique instead of 1 Restoration Angel, thoughts?
My SB is still pre-ban and it's mostly geared toward combo but I may have to change that as the metagame develops. I've heard people talking about the usefulness of cards like Combust. Is it the real deal? Worth a spot in the SB? Any other SB cards that I should be thinking about?
Any suggestions for the MB or SB are very welcome.