Meh. I have a snowballs chance in hell of convincing you guys by typing a forum post. I submit for your evaluation the following videos of me beating the tar out of your UWr version with my "sub-optimal" UW deck.
With UW you got more stable mana and you can run 4 Tectonic Edge and that's it. With adding red you gain reach with Lightning Bolt which is the best card in modern, Lightning Helix, Electrolyze which is 2 for 1 at best 3 for 1. And SB cards like Sowing Salt, Combust, Counterflux. With UWR you can close games really fast, out of nowhere.
No. You (like so many others) are missing the most important thing about using UW. You are getting a more focused game plan. You speak as though your decks have unlimited deck space. They don't. You are trading diversity for focus.
It's one thing to make that choice knowing full well what you are giving up...but you and the majority of players on this forum do not seem realize the sacrifice they are making.
Again, I am not saying that diversity is the wrong way to go! I am just telling you to stop acting like it's strictly better than focus, because it is not.
Meh. Seems like they should just merge it all together in one place like they did with Faeries. I play against these decks all the time in MTGO and they are all basically the same thing.
Picture a slider scale with one side being a super bursty tempo-y version of the deck, at the other side you have your midrange-y planeswalkery versions. It's all the basically the same concept with a slider bar built in for a user to adjust it to his personal taste.
Just curious, what exactly is a Geist of Saint Win deck? The thread title indicates that this class of deck is different from the UWr decks that are being discussed.
There isn't enough punishment for splashing a third color in Modern. The main problem is the loss of life, but that is offset by all of red's efficient creature-removal. UW is just a worse approach.
See this is actually wrong. The punishment for running 3+ colors isnt only loss of life, its loss of deck space and loss of deck focus in favor of diversification. I'm not saying it worse, it's just different. MTG is all about give and take. If you make the sacrifice to run 3 colors I think you should do so with at least a clear understanding of what you are actually giving up. Most folks do not undrestand this concept, and they think exactly the same way the guy I quoted does.
That said, I will not muddy up your thread with a deck that doesnt really belong. Good day gents.
Guys, uwr midrange, remember?
Can we go back to that?
This seemed like the closest thread since it had the "Geist of St. Win" title. If this is not correct, can you you recommend the correct thread for me?
I concede that Delver is significantly better in your UW build than it is in UWR Midrange simply because it plays more instants/sorceries. I am still leery about playing that few creatures, especially with no 1-2-cmc counterspells to protect Delver early. (I suspect your build consistently gets massacred by a Turn 2 Liliana OTV because you have no 1-2-cmc answers for her and you play few threats. Turn 2 Lilianas happen surprisingly often in BGx Midrange.)
By the way, in the tradition of naming Invitational cards after their creators, Tiago (Chan) is Snapcaster Mage.
What-if scenarios are not pointless--they each illustrate possible games and how they turn out. My example game illustrated that you do not always have the timely removal or counterspell and you definitely do not always have Traft following Delver.
I remember that some of my most successful games as the Delver player involved sticking multiple threats (which is why I feel that UR Delver is unsteady--Spellstutter Sprite nearly isn't a threat and counters 1-cmc spells the most often--and I am more comfortable with RUG Delver). They obviously didn't happen that often. Those games always involved one of those guys dying and the other(s) pushing through. Your opponent invariably can deal with your first threat eventually unless it has protection from something (removal or blockers).
From my experience, double Delver games and Delver into Goyf games are semi-Magical Christmas Land occurrences (but at least they add up). I suspect that your Delver into Traft games are as Magical Christmas Land as my Delver into Goyf games.
It's not magical fairy land. Watch. The. Replays. Whether I draw Delver early or late, he is good. Whether I flip him on Turn 2 or turn 4, he is good. He is a threat that MUST be answered! Yes he can be answered by a ton of removal but you have a ton of disruption to protect him. Decks like this do not need tons of threats, but they need their threats to be cheap and relevant. Delver fits the bill.
Now you do make a point about the lack of 1-2cc counter spells. Full disclosure my 6 "flex" slots frequently house various counterspells. Mana Tithe / Remand / Mana Leak...but they all leave something to be desired. I am still trying to settle upon a good cheap counterspell. Next thing I will test is main deck Dispel.
Trading Delver with their more expensive guy is a bad thing for me because Delver decks tend to play fewer threats, so they often become very behind if they lose any of them. You don't always have the Traft in hand by the time Delver dies.
For example, Delver-Tiago-Cryptic-Serum Visions-3 lands looks keepable. Say you're on the draw. Turn 1, you draw another land and stick Delver. Turn 2, Delver flips (I'll assume I'm using your deck) while you draw Think Twice. Delver connects once. You play Think Twice and it draws into a Tiago. Turn 3, you draw Serum Visions, you use them both, and they draw into another land and a Dissolve (you wanted removal instead), then your Delver gets ambushed by a V. Clique. Now you have to build your offenses all over again while holding up a 3 cmc card. Your tempo has been unluckily shot. You do have 2 Tiagos, but they're probably coming down on Turn 6 if you always hold up Dissolve.
The moment all your threats die, you're on the back foot and you're not likely to recover for turns straight. This happens more often in tempo decks because they play fewer threats.
It's pointless to play what-if scenarios. For every one you come up with I can think of two where Delver wins the game. Also I have no idea what Tiago is.
You should take a look at some of the videos I posted. I have not evaluated Delver from a hypothetical scenario, I have put him to the test in game after game and recorded the results for anyone to see. There are at least 2 replays of me actually BEATING the UWr netdecks posted in this forum with my lowly UW homebrew.
When in doubt, put it into a a deck and actually test it out! There is no need for any further thought experiments here, just play Delver the game and see what happens. I highly recommend that you use my list or something very close to it if you really want to see him shine.
MemoryLapse, I mentioned those fliers because they can all come out on Turn 3 and they all trade with or kill Delver. They represent a very realistic chance that Delver cannot profitably connect (in addition to opposing removal). They are all worth removing if they dare try to block Delver, but tap out too much for Azorius Charm and opponents can leak other stuff through your counter wall.
I also forgot to mention Lingering Souls, which also comes out on Turn 3. Given long enough, it can trade with 2 Delvers, and it's fairly hard to protect Delver against it.
I like Delver more in decks that let it flip on Turn 2 more often, instead of on Turn 3, where it starts trading with V. Clique, etc. instead of connecting at least once. I don't like my odds with only 22 instants/sorceries in my version.
I do not see why you think trading a delver for a 3 cc Clique for example is a bad thing. Worst case scenario, they have lost tempo. Best case scenario they are tapping out to cast the clique and you counterspell it. You have the open mana to do that because your delver came out on turn 1. Even if you cant counter it, they are tapped out. Now you cast your Geist on turn 3 without fear.
They have traded their turn 3 play for your turn 1 play, and your turn 3 play hits the table safely. I'm pretty happy with this exchange. As an aside, Repeal helps a lot with lingering souls. YOu swing with Geist or whatever, they block with two tokens you repeal one, replace the card and kill both tokens. Plust the angel connects for 4 damage. Another good exchange.
Shoot, I forgot this reason why UWR Midrange doesn't play Delver--it runs only around 20-23 instants/sorceries. That's not quite enough to flip Delver consistently. Being in a 25-26-land deck hurts Delver's consistency too much (even with a 10-16-creature count). I've seen players dabble with Figure of Destiny in this deck but not Delver.
It reminds me of my time running Spellheart Chimera in this deck. I first tried 2, then went down to 1 and threw in 2 Steam Augury (the SA support Spellheart well, and they're great against fair decks--they're just spotty against some unfair decks), and Spellheart is still maddeningly inconsistent. Late-game, it's often a 4+/3 and it's great (I think I had a 8/3 Spellheart once), but early-game, it's often a 0/3 or 1/3 and it really sucks. And this is with 22 instants in the deck, 2 of which can mill other instants.
With only 20-23 instants/sorceries, a Turn 1 Delver only gets to flip on around Turn 3 on average, and by then, it competes with V. Clique, Flickerwisp, Faerie Conclave, Pestermite, and Pod's Restos for rule of the skies. That's too late to capitalize on the tempo gain a Turn 1 Delver should provide.
Well my list actually runs 25 cards that flip delver, and 4 of those are Serum Visions, so flipping delver is reliable. I suppose I should have posted a list.
That said, I think you guys are way off on what delver is and what it can mean to Blue. Look at the cards you are comparing it to: V clique at 3cc, conclave a manland that requires sorcery speed 3 mana and flicker wisp a white 3cc creature. It make no sense. Just stop comparing it to this or that and look at what it actually - a turn 1 threat. All you have to do is drop it turn 1 and let it snowball. Blue happens to be pretty good at protecting its board after turn 1, and a 3 power flyer is worth protecting. All you need is a couple swings from a delver.
Step 2: Geist hits the deck and you start flattening their defenses with Cryptics and snapcasters etc. Colonade swings ftw. It is a solid consistent game plan that requires very few creatures. Only 3 in fact, Delver, Snappy and Geist, and Snappy is more like an instant speed Demonic Tutor on a body. Here is the perfect example of how delver wins you games even if you don't flip it turn 1 - Azorius Control - Delver Justification: http://youtu.be/matlE3JkX2M
UWR Midrange lists have been increasingly moving away from Traft (no Flash, dies to Pyroclasm, gets blocked by Goyf/Ooze/Pod/etc.), have basically never played Delver (its soul is midrange--it seeks to disrupt first, then play threats, and Delver chunks up that plan by being a fragile threat that should be played on Turn 1), but have always kept red (Bolt/Helix/Electrolyze are great removal spells).
Yeah thats pretty much what I figured, folks view delver as "bad" now. Its insane though. For -years- Blue was missing only 1 piece, and early beater threat. Now we have an amazing one, and people forget what it means to Blue's game plan. A couple swings with an incestile abberation is all you need to put your opponent into lethal range. How you may ask? With geist on the table you flatten their army with Cryptic and swing. Then you flash back the CC or cast another one and swing with Geist and Colonade. This isn't magical fairy land either. Check out those videos for proof I am really consistent.
I just found this thread and I havent read much of it so forgive me if these questions have been answered:
1) Are lists currently using Geist of Saint Traft?
2) Are lists currently using Red?
3) Are lists currently using Delver?
I ask this because I am smashing every single deck I play with my UW Geist list, and I am wondering if this is a good place to compare notes. Here is about 20 hours worth of videos of me smashing everyone who dares face me...back to back to back.
Azorius Control vs UWR Poor Sport: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59TfQQ9wA4k
Azorius Control vs UWR Control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luBWiTlAMVc
No. You (like so many others) are missing the most important thing about using UW. You are getting a more focused game plan. You speak as though your decks have unlimited deck space. They don't. You are trading diversity for focus.
It's one thing to make that choice knowing full well what you are giving up...but you and the majority of players on this forum do not seem realize the sacrifice they are making.
Again, I am not saying that diversity is the wrong way to go! I am just telling you to stop acting like it's strictly better than focus, because it is not.
Picture a slider scale with one side being a super bursty tempo-y version of the deck, at the other side you have your midrange-y planeswalkery versions. It's all the basically the same concept with a slider bar built in for a user to adjust it to his personal taste.
See this is actually wrong. The punishment for running 3+ colors isnt only loss of life, its loss of deck space and loss of deck focus in favor of diversification. I'm not saying it worse, it's just different. MTG is all about give and take. If you make the sacrifice to run 3 colors I think you should do so with at least a clear understanding of what you are actually giving up. Most folks do not undrestand this concept, and they think exactly the same way the guy I quoted does.
That said, I will not muddy up your thread with a deck that doesnt really belong. Good day gents.
Seems to me that UW is relatively unexplored territory in modern if all of these UWR good stuffs amalgams are all we have.
This seemed like the closest thread since it had the "Geist of St. Win" title. If this is not correct, can you you recommend the correct thread for me?
It's not magical fairy land. Watch. The. Replays. Whether I draw Delver early or late, he is good. Whether I flip him on Turn 2 or turn 4, he is good. He is a threat that MUST be answered! Yes he can be answered by a ton of removal but you have a ton of disruption to protect him. Decks like this do not need tons of threats, but they need their threats to be cheap and relevant. Delver fits the bill.
Now you do make a point about the lack of 1-2cc counter spells. Full disclosure my 6 "flex" slots frequently house various counterspells. Mana Tithe / Remand / Mana Leak...but they all leave something to be desired. I am still trying to settle upon a good cheap counterspell. Next thing I will test is main deck Dispel.
It's pointless to play what-if scenarios. For every one you come up with I can think of two where Delver wins the game. Also I have no idea what Tiago is.
You should take a look at some of the videos I posted. I have not evaluated Delver from a hypothetical scenario, I have put him to the test in game after game and recorded the results for anyone to see. There are at least 2 replays of me actually BEATING the UWr netdecks posted in this forum with my lowly UW homebrew.
When in doubt, put it into a a deck and actually test it out! There is no need for any further thought experiments here, just play Delver the game and see what happens. I highly recommend that you use my list or something very close to it if you really want to see him shine.
I do not see why you think trading a delver for a 3 cc Clique for example is a bad thing. Worst case scenario, they have lost tempo. Best case scenario they are tapping out to cast the clique and you counterspell it. You have the open mana to do that because your delver came out on turn 1. Even if you cant counter it, they are tapped out. Now you cast your Geist on turn 3 without fear.
They have traded their turn 3 play for your turn 1 play, and your turn 3 play hits the table safely. I'm pretty happy with this exchange. As an aside, Repeal helps a lot with lingering souls. YOu swing with Geist or whatever, they block with two tokens you repeal one, replace the card and kill both tokens. Plust the angel connects for 4 damage. Another good exchange.
Well my list actually runs 25 cards that flip delver, and 4 of those are Serum Visions, so flipping delver is reliable. I suppose I should have posted a list.
That said, I think you guys are way off on what delver is and what it can mean to Blue. Look at the cards you are comparing it to: V clique at 3cc, conclave a manland that requires sorcery speed 3 mana and flicker wisp a white 3cc creature. It make no sense. Just stop comparing it to this or that and look at what it actually - a turn 1 threat. All you have to do is drop it turn 1 and let it snowball. Blue happens to be pretty good at protecting its board after turn 1, and a 3 power flyer is worth protecting. All you need is a couple swings from a delver.
Step 2: Geist hits the deck and you start flattening their defenses with Cryptics and snapcasters etc. Colonade swings ftw. It is a solid consistent game plan that requires very few creatures. Only 3 in fact, Delver, Snappy and Geist, and Snappy is more like an instant speed Demonic Tutor on a body. Here is the perfect example of how delver wins you games even if you don't flip it turn 1 - Azorius Control - Delver Justification: http://youtu.be/matlE3JkX2M
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Seachrome Coast
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Mystic Gate
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
Creatures
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Cryptic Command
2 Think Twice
2 Boomerang
4 Dissolve
3 Azorius Charm
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Dispel
4 Ghostly Prison
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Negate
Yeah thats pretty much what I figured, folks view delver as "bad" now. Its insane though. For -years- Blue was missing only 1 piece, and early beater threat. Now we have an amazing one, and people forget what it means to Blue's game plan. A couple swings with an incestile abberation is all you need to put your opponent into lethal range. How you may ask? With geist on the table you flatten their army with Cryptic and swing. Then you flash back the CC or cast another one and swing with Geist and Colonade. This isn't magical fairy land either. Check out those videos for proof I am really consistent.
Does it die to bolt? Sure.
1) Are lists currently using Geist of Saint Traft?
2) Are lists currently using Red?
3) Are lists currently using Delver?
I ask this because I am smashing every single deck I play with my UW Geist list, and I am wondering if this is a good place to compare notes. Here is about 20 hours worth of videos of me smashing everyone who dares face me...back to back to back.
10-12-13 Azorius Control vs An MTG Beginner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhjisP9drlo
10-12-13 Azorius Control vs Elves!: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2TiQPPZ9jc
10-12-13 Azorius Control vs 8Rack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mX68SPerX0E
10-12-13 Azorius Control vs Grixis Control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pw-UnxS4ACA
10-12-13 Azorius Control vs Jund: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRhwBLRRsKw ***Key Match Up***
10-12-13 Azorius Control vs 8Rack: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hfVhR8Em4M
10-11-13 Azorius Control vs Ad Nauseum: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nsnnk-3L3FA
10-11-13 Azorius Control vs BGw Rock Netdeck: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMypQYd_EOI
10-11-13 Azorius Control vs UWR Control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luBWiTlAMVc ***Key Match Up***
10-10-13 Azorius Control vs White Death and Taxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT-9dbWyO2E ***Key Match Up***
10-10-13 Azorius Control vs The Rock: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JaFC7y925k
10-10-13 Azorius Control vs UW Polymorph Control: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zjyn2I8dGB8
10-10-13 Azorius Control vs Domri Rade Naya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5Jj-xv-KEc
10-10-13 Azorius Control vs Lilianas Radkos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sv2vHZRcHOs
10-9-13 Azorius Control vs Radkos Burn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5R8ZNJnIFQ
10-9-13 Azorius Control vs Tooth and Nail: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN55D-bymMQ
9-29-13 Azorius Control vs White Death and Taxes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFRI19x-9kg
9/29/13 Azorius Control vs Boros Aggro Burn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYSmvIwPMHk