Opt is so much better with Snapcaster Mage that I think you'd go 4 Opt before any Serums.
It’s not quite as clear cut as that. Opt provides instant speed and an upgrade in immediate selection, which is important for games that go long. It also allows you to hold up Snapcaster Mage on turn 3+. Serum Visions is FAR superior on turn 1, it’s better at planning the next few turns and it plays very nice with Street Wraith, allowing you to sculpt your hand with some instant speed selection (via Wraith).
I’m still not sure which is superior, since both shine at slightly different things and during different stages of the game. GDS is a weird deck, since it plays at sorcery speed… sometimes and it plays at instant speed… sometimes.
After waffling back and forth on the idea, I’m starting to think Serum Visions may just be superior as the primary cantrip, while Opt acts as an upgrade to additional copies of 1-mana cantrips.
I’ll definitely be trying them out in place of SV at some point though. It really just needs testing.
So Opt is going to be Modern legal. Do we want it? It doesn't let us dig quite as deep, but gives us a pseudo Sleight of Hand at instant speed. Serum Visions might be better during the early turns, but Opt probably shines during the late game, when card selection is more important than setting up the next couple of turns. Snapcaster Mage + Opt at an opponent's end step seems pretty nice as well.
I plan on trying it out for sure, but I'm hesitant to believe it's a straight up upgrade, since I've had many games where I keep a 1 lander with Serum Visions to bottom 2 non-landers to hit my second land drop. Scry 2 vs Scry 1 is nothing to scoff at.
I agree with what you wrote regarding Wraith. Surgical has almost always a valid target, whether it's a fetch land they just cracked or a Path they just used to remove one of our threats. I have tested Surgical in the main instead of Wraiths and it has suprised me with it's efficiency. I will continue testing it more vs a broader range of matchups before I make my final verdict.
Valid target is different from "high impact" target are two different things though. Firing it off at whatever jank is in their graveyard is often not very useful in matches. Don't get me wrong; sometimes an early Surgical is a slam dunk against your opponent. You cast it, hit something nice in their grave and then find 1-2 more in their hand. Those few and far between moments feel pretty good, but half the time it sits in your hand, waiting for an opportune target.
It does do major work against Dredge and a handful of other decks, but against the entire field, it's better to just have consistency over a card that randomly hoses a deck sometimes and sometimes does nothing.
Hey guys, I have a card suggestion to make. Please don't shoot me if you don't like it. We could replace 4 Street Wraith with 4 Surgical Extractions. Both cards drain us 2 life. The benefit with Surgical is that we can remove staples from our opponent deck as soon as a card hits their graveyard (which isn't hard to do with our deck). Would like to hear your guys opinion on this change. I understand that Street Wraith replaces itself whilst Surgical doesn't. However, Surgical can remove up to 3 cards from their deck/hand.
Edit: It's also another Snapcaster target.
Wraith smooths out our draws, which allows us to run fewer lands. It makes Serum Visions much better and allows us to keep some normally sketchy hands. It also provides you with extra uses with K-Command and Liliana, the Last Hope from the side. It's also an all-star as a method to break board stalls against the mirror as just an unblockable beater.
Surgical Extraction is card disadvantage, it's useless against an opponent with an empty grave and is really only at it's best when you're extracting highly important cards that your opponent absolutely needs to function. I've even moved away from running them in the side. The card is solid, but it's more of a very specific answer for certain types of strategies than it is a mainboard card.
A couple of scenarios that i've seen many players and especially pro's like LSV,Manfield,etc differ.
1) Hand: Fetch,Thoughtseize,Serum Visions and non-Land randoms. Which do you play first and why? On the play and on the draw(assuming you don't hit land in first draw step).
2) Hand: 2 Fetch,Thoughtseize,Serum Visions and non Thought Scour randoms. On the play.
3) Hand: Lands,Serum Visions,Stubborn Denial,(W and W/O Fatal push) and non-discard randoms. On the play.
I'll start with that ones. I think this helps a lot because this deck is difficult to play around not getting blown out. Common scenario is going full suicide mode and Fetch Shocking Thoughtseize on T1 on the play, to find yourself against Burn. Feels bad. The goal is to discuss T1 plays on the dark.
It all depends on if I know what the opponent is playing, but generally:
1) In most on-the-play situations Serum Vision, especially against an unknown. Not hitting your second land on time can be pretty rough. Of course, this could change depending on what the rest of your hand is composed of. Some number of Wraiths might lead me to Seize first, with the intention of casting Serum Visions on turn 2 and using Wraith to help make sure I get my second land drop. On the draw, it all depends on what their first turn looks like and what the other "random" non-lands are. If they play a dork and I have a removal, I'll probably prioritize removing that. The rest of the "random" hand really does matter in making that decision.
2) With no second land, I'd probably Serum Visions right off the bat as well (assuming no Street Wraith again). Stealing their turn 1 with Thoughtseize seems less important than ensuring you will have your second land.
3) Same. Serum. This deck doesn't need a lot of land, but missing number 2 hurts a lot. Passing turn one with mana up for a Stub or a Push will make you feel pretty silly if your opp doesn't do anything worth interacting with on their turn 1. Especially if you Serum and miss your turn 2 land drop. You could make an argument that you have relevant interaction for anything they could play turn 1 by holding up Stubs and Push, but realistically, how many decks will you play against where a turn 1 Stubborn Denial is a game winning play? Maybe counter D&T's Vial? You're still going to be able to play Push turn 2 anyways. So, worst case scenario, you probably get punished by a Goblin Guide for holding up a Push instead of searching for your land.
A lot of these sequences would change if I knew what I was playing against, or what the "random" cards are, or if I had that second land in the opener. I think going "full suicide mode" is only correct when you need to race, your opener is clearly set up for it with a Shadow in hand, or you're playing against a deck that doesn't care a whole lot about your life-total to win. If you quickly realize you're the control deck, it's better just to play it safe on life.
So I was told that the mirror is draw dependent. However, I seem to have trouble playing the mirror, I am currently playing a list that has extra removal.
There are also people posting they are 60% in the mirror, playing a near stock version of the deck, How do they do this?.
I am playing this list with extra removal (dismember main and dreadbore sb).
In general I am sb like this in the mirror. SB: -3 stubborn denial, -2 streetwraiths, + 2 nilil spellbomb, + 1 dreadbore, + 1 liliana, the last hope, + 1 kolaghan's command.
Some things I notice in the mirror.
1. Snap into serum / discard is actually quite good.
2. There are only a few removal spells in the deck for the delve creatures. Other options are blocking with a delve creature or a shadow.
3. Losing life with fetches and sw is not always necessary, the game is gonna be played out slower so you dont want to shock too aggressively.
4. land flooding / drawing the denials (only in g1) makes you have a much greater chance of losing.
5. opponents holding up cards can mean a few things (holding up bolt snap bolt, waiting for discard before playing a shadow, have all removal in hand and no threat, bluffing with lands)
Any other tips people got for playing the mirror.
The mirror often becomes a grind-fest, so your biggest bet is to eliminate dead draws. A lot of times, the game just ends up being trading resources and hitting a top deck war. Which means discard often becomes bad quickly. Stubborn Denial is one of your best cards once you've established a superior board state and Street Wraith is oddly a pretty good top deck late game. It helps break board stalls by giving you an unblockable clock.
The cards you brought in seem right, but I'd leave most of the cards you brought out, in. I'm actually a fan of trimming some Thought Scours when I don't need to play the aggressor. Your grave will fill through natural interaction and Thoughscour is just air in the deck when you're not in a rush to get Tasigur out.
Mostly, you have to play by ear. Some openers will allow you to play the beatdown, some are set up for you to play the control role.
Lately I've been losing hard vs affinity explosive starts or to etched champion. I've a staticaster and also 2 anger of the gods in side, they could be 2 Kozilek's return or 1 each but then the dredge match is way worse.
So, the people with angers in SB, how do you manage affinity? Any tips or only hope is pray to be lucky?
I side out most discard, since it’s usually dead after turn 1. Side in your sweepers and artifact hate of choice. Play conservative on your life total and don’t take unnecessary damage from fetching+shocking. Make sure to only keep a hand with heavy interaction and snipe problem cards (Ravager, Signal Pest, Overseer, Master… and sometimes Vault Skirge) with your single target removal. Trade card for card until you can get ahead with K-Command, your sweeper (like Anger). Since Anger doesn’t get Etched Champion, save your Ceremonious Rejection for it if you can. A resolved Etched Champion and it’s over for you most of the time.
I’m off of Anger of the Gods. RR is rough on the mana base and the 3 damage+exile is really only great against dredge. I’d run Flaying Tendrils if you need the exile effect, since it hits Champion and exiles many problem cards against other decks and BB is much easier to hit than RR. It’s only cardinal sin is that it misses Prized Amalgam. Kozilek’s Return really is a house against that deck. It eats manlands and Etched for breakfast as long as you don’t let a Ravager hang out.
Yes, the "it depends" line really rings true. If you haven't read: Who's the Beatdown
... then that's a great place to start (for any magic player, really). The deck shifts to the role it needs to in each matchup. That means sometimes you're trying to play control and sometimes you're trying to be the beatdown. Sometimes, that role shifts in the middle of the game. Some matches you need to mulligan to a heavy interaction hand. Some games you need to have a threat down ASAP. Some games you want to aggressively eat your own life total. Others, you want to what you have to in order to preserve it.
Perhaps the biggest mistake I see most people make with this deck is to just fetch/shock/street wraith/thoughtseize their own life into oblivion for EVERY game, when really, it's always a question of "it depends". If you're staring at a Goblin Guide coming at you on turn one, then you may want to pump the brakes.
what do you guys think about testing a version without street wraiths? so like a stock list with 1 more land, 2 dismember and 1 more k command in the main board or something.
Street Wraith is important in matchups where you need to play the aggressor. It helps you control your life loss to power out an early Death's Shadow and it fills the grave to help land an early Tasigur, the Golden Fang. It also works wonders with Serum Visions. Removing them for more removal, a land and K-Command just slows the deck down and makes you more vulnerable to decks you need to slip under. Dismember, while a good way to remove a creature and control your life loss, does nothing with no targets, which is why I prefer running Terminate to kill stuff and Wraith/Fetches/Shocklands to control life total.
What is your reasoning for getting rid of Wraiths?
Yup. Flaying Tendrils is actually pretty decent. A lot easier to cast than Anger of the Gods and kills Etched Champion. It's only sin is that it doesn't get Prized Amalgam, but it kills all of Dredge's other threats and gets rid of Bloodghast to shut off the heavy recursion engine with Amalgam. It's often enough to get the win.
But we can all agree that it's impossible to win g1 on the play against burn. And nearly impossible too on the draw G1. I'm talking normal modern magic burn player who knows the match up.
I'd disagree with this. It's tough, but hardly "impossible," especially if you scout matches before and can decipher that they're on burn before hand to inform your mulligan choices.
Burn is tricky indeed. Basically, you need to trade as many cards as possible with them and force THEM to do as much of the work to reduce your life total. You need to evaluate each action in terms of cards. If you fetch+shock, you just gave them a free card against you, when they’re just trying to count to 7 with that deck (more or less). Same goes with Street Wraith and Thoughtseize. Constantly think about how many “free” cards you’re giving them or how much life you’re netting yourself. (e.g. if you cast a Thoughtseize and take a Boros Charm, you’re potentially saving yourself 2 life at the cost of a slight loss of tempo).
You also can’t get too comfortable playing a control/attrition role, since burn has great inevitability. If you don’t put a clock on them, they’re eventually just going to draw enough spells to finish you. So, it’s a mix of closely monitoring your own life total to not take extra damage, placing pressure and keeping them from just building a volley of cards to eat your life total down in a single flurry. If they start storing up a hand (constantly holding on to 3 cards or more) they may just be looking for an opportune moment to take you from 10 to zero in a single turn. That's when Stubborn Denial is your best friend.
Delve threats are great in this matchup, since they place any requirements on your life total to be good. Shadow can be situationally great, or awful in this matchup.
New to the deck. Why is the new Liliana, the Last Hope used? She seems subpar compared to Liliana of the Veil. I am obviously blind to what improvements she brings.
This has been discussed before, but here's the quick and dirty version:
Her +1 takes care of chump blockers, like Lingering Souls tokens, which can be a rough card for us to overcome. Her -2 ability lets us get back creatures from our grave (Snapcaster to replay even MORE instants from the grave, or other fatties when we need to get a threat going), allowing us to grind against decks where we need to play a long game and the final ability just wins the game.
LotV's +1 ability hurts us by forcing us to discard. We don't want to win an attrition war by putting both us and our opponent in top deck mode. We want to grind by recasting stuff that's landed in our grave, a la Snapcaster, or just bringing back creatures that ate up a removal. Basically, we want cards in hand to defeat our opponents. Her final probably also wins you the game, but you'd have to completely get rid of your hand to do so.
I have seen some people using Rise//Fall and saying it's pretty good in the mirror. Could someone elaborate why ?
The mirror is often just about who can grind better. Bouncing a Tasigur or an Angler can leave it stranded in your opponent's hand and returning a Death's Shadow or a Snapcaster from your own grave effectively turns this into a bouncing spell that cantrips. It doesn't provide card advantage, but it's a solid tempo play. The Fall portion of the card can be useful too, especially if you know they have only nonland cards. Then it's basically Hymn to Torach.
I actually dislike Ceremonious Rejection. It looks really good, but matches up really oddly with the decks you want to use it against.
It's awesome against Bant Eldrazi... unless they drop a Cavern of Souls. Then it's a dead card for the rest of the game.
It's also awesome against Tron... if they play the half of their deck that the card is good against. The card is really good against Expedition Map, Oblivion Stone and the walkers, but if they start dropping Ulamog or World Breaker, the cast triggers can make Ceremonious Rejection look a little sub-par.
It's also great against Affinity... but they often dump their hand immediately letting most targets slip through it. It's an all-star versus the later "problem" cards like Etched Champion though (which is definitely the number one problem to deal with in that deck).
I still think it's a solid sideboard card, but I just can't get myself to run it anymore because of the odd quirks that come with running it.
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It’s not quite as clear cut as that. Opt provides instant speed and an upgrade in immediate selection, which is important for games that go long. It also allows you to hold up Snapcaster Mage on turn 3+. Serum Visions is FAR superior on turn 1, it’s better at planning the next few turns and it plays very nice with Street Wraith, allowing you to sculpt your hand with some instant speed selection (via Wraith).
I’m still not sure which is superior, since both shine at slightly different things and during different stages of the game. GDS is a weird deck, since it plays at sorcery speed… sometimes and it plays at instant speed… sometimes.
After waffling back and forth on the idea, I’m starting to think Serum Visions may just be superior as the primary cantrip, while Opt acts as an upgrade to additional copies of 1-mana cantrips.
I’ll definitely be trying them out in place of SV at some point though. It really just needs testing.
I plan on trying it out for sure, but I'm hesitant to believe it's a straight up upgrade, since I've had many games where I keep a 1 lander with Serum Visions to bottom 2 non-landers to hit my second land drop. Scry 2 vs Scry 1 is nothing to scoff at.
Valid target is different from "high impact" target are two different things though. Firing it off at whatever jank is in their graveyard is often not very useful in matches. Don't get me wrong; sometimes an early Surgical is a slam dunk against your opponent. You cast it, hit something nice in their grave and then find 1-2 more in their hand. Those few and far between moments feel pretty good, but half the time it sits in your hand, waiting for an opportune target.
It does do major work against Dredge and a handful of other decks, but against the entire field, it's better to just have consistency over a card that randomly hoses a deck sometimes and sometimes does nothing.
Wraith smooths out our draws, which allows us to run fewer lands. It makes Serum Visions much better and allows us to keep some normally sketchy hands. It also provides you with extra uses with K-Command and Liliana, the Last Hope from the side. It's also an all-star as a method to break board stalls against the mirror as just an unblockable beater.
Surgical Extraction is card disadvantage, it's useless against an opponent with an empty grave and is really only at it's best when you're extracting highly important cards that your opponent absolutely needs to function. I've even moved away from running them in the side. The card is solid, but it's more of a very specific answer for certain types of strategies than it is a mainboard card.
It all depends on if I know what the opponent is playing, but generally:
1) In most on-the-play situations Serum Vision, especially against an unknown. Not hitting your second land on time can be pretty rough. Of course, this could change depending on what the rest of your hand is composed of. Some number of Wraiths might lead me to Seize first, with the intention of casting Serum Visions on turn 2 and using Wraith to help make sure I get my second land drop. On the draw, it all depends on what their first turn looks like and what the other "random" non-lands are. If they play a dork and I have a removal, I'll probably prioritize removing that. The rest of the "random" hand really does matter in making that decision.
2) With no second land, I'd probably Serum Visions right off the bat as well (assuming no Street Wraith again). Stealing their turn 1 with Thoughtseize seems less important than ensuring you will have your second land.
3) Same. Serum. This deck doesn't need a lot of land, but missing number 2 hurts a lot. Passing turn one with mana up for a Stub or a Push will make you feel pretty silly if your opp doesn't do anything worth interacting with on their turn 1. Especially if you Serum and miss your turn 2 land drop. You could make an argument that you have relevant interaction for anything they could play turn 1 by holding up Stubs and Push, but realistically, how many decks will you play against where a turn 1 Stubborn Denial is a game winning play? Maybe counter D&T's Vial? You're still going to be able to play Push turn 2 anyways. So, worst case scenario, you probably get punished by a Goblin Guide for holding up a Push instead of searching for your land.
A lot of these sequences would change if I knew what I was playing against, or what the "random" cards are, or if I had that second land in the opener. I think going "full suicide mode" is only correct when you need to race, your opener is clearly set up for it with a Shadow in hand, or you're playing against a deck that doesn't care a whole lot about your life-total to win. If you quickly realize you're the control deck, it's better just to play it safe on life.
The mirror often becomes a grind-fest, so your biggest bet is to eliminate dead draws. A lot of times, the game just ends up being trading resources and hitting a top deck war. Which means discard often becomes bad quickly. Stubborn Denial is one of your best cards once you've established a superior board state and Street Wraith is oddly a pretty good top deck late game. It helps break board stalls by giving you an unblockable clock.
The cards you brought in seem right, but I'd leave most of the cards you brought out, in. I'm actually a fan of trimming some Thought Scours when I don't need to play the aggressor. Your grave will fill through natural interaction and Thoughscour is just air in the deck when you're not in a rush to get Tasigur out.
Mostly, you have to play by ear. Some openers will allow you to play the beatdown, some are set up for you to play the control role.
I side out most discard, since it’s usually dead after turn 1. Side in your sweepers and artifact hate of choice. Play conservative on your life total and don’t take unnecessary damage from fetching+shocking. Make sure to only keep a hand with heavy interaction and snipe problem cards (Ravager, Signal Pest, Overseer, Master… and sometimes Vault Skirge) with your single target removal. Trade card for card until you can get ahead with K-Command, your sweeper (like Anger). Since Anger doesn’t get Etched Champion, save your Ceremonious Rejection for it if you can. A resolved Etched Champion and it’s over for you most of the time.
I’m off of Anger of the Gods. RR is rough on the mana base and the 3 damage+exile is really only great against dredge. I’d run Flaying Tendrils if you need the exile effect, since it hits Champion and exiles many problem cards against other decks and BB is much easier to hit than RR. It’s only cardinal sin is that it misses Prized Amalgam. Kozilek’s Return really is a house against that deck. It eats manlands and Etched for breakfast as long as you don’t let a Ravager hang out.
... then that's a great place to start (for any magic player, really). The deck shifts to the role it needs to in each matchup. That means sometimes you're trying to play control and sometimes you're trying to be the beatdown. Sometimes, that role shifts in the middle of the game. Some matches you need to mulligan to a heavy interaction hand. Some games you need to have a threat down ASAP. Some games you want to aggressively eat your own life total. Others, you want to what you have to in order to preserve it.
Perhaps the biggest mistake I see most people make with this deck is to just fetch/shock/street wraith/thoughtseize their own life into oblivion for EVERY game, when really, it's always a question of "it depends". If you're staring at a Goblin Guide coming at you on turn one, then you may want to pump the brakes.
Street Wraith is important in matchups where you need to play the aggressor. It helps you control your life loss to power out an early Death's Shadow and it fills the grave to help land an early Tasigur, the Golden Fang. It also works wonders with Serum Visions. Removing them for more removal, a land and K-Command just slows the deck down and makes you more vulnerable to decks you need to slip under. Dismember, while a good way to remove a creature and control your life loss, does nothing with no targets, which is why I prefer running Terminate to kill stuff and Wraith/Fetches/Shocklands to control life total.
What is your reasoning for getting rid of Wraiths?
I'd disagree with this. It's tough, but hardly "impossible," especially if you scout matches before and can decipher that they're on burn before hand to inform your mulligan choices.
You also can’t get too comfortable playing a control/attrition role, since burn has great inevitability. If you don’t put a clock on them, they’re eventually just going to draw enough spells to finish you. So, it’s a mix of closely monitoring your own life total to not take extra damage, placing pressure and keeping them from just building a volley of cards to eat your life total down in a single flurry. If they start storing up a hand (constantly holding on to 3 cards or more) they may just be looking for an opportune moment to take you from 10 to zero in a single turn. That's when Stubborn Denial is your best friend.
Delve threats are great in this matchup, since they place any requirements on your life total to be good. Shadow can be situationally great, or awful in this matchup.
This has been discussed before, but here's the quick and dirty version:
Her +1 takes care of chump blockers, like Lingering Souls tokens, which can be a rough card for us to overcome. Her -2 ability lets us get back creatures from our grave (Snapcaster to replay even MORE instants from the grave, or other fatties when we need to get a threat going), allowing us to grind against decks where we need to play a long game and the final ability just wins the game.
LotV's +1 ability hurts us by forcing us to discard. We don't want to win an attrition war by putting both us and our opponent in top deck mode. We want to grind by recasting stuff that's landed in our grave, a la Snapcaster, or just bringing back creatures that ate up a removal. Basically, we want cards in hand to defeat our opponents. Her final probably also wins you the game, but you'd have to completely get rid of your hand to do so.
The mirror is often just about who can grind better. Bouncing a Tasigur or an Angler can leave it stranded in your opponent's hand and returning a Death's Shadow or a Snapcaster from your own grave effectively turns this into a bouncing spell that cantrips. It doesn't provide card advantage, but it's a solid tempo play. The Fall portion of the card can be useful too, especially if you know they have only nonland cards. Then it's basically Hymn to Torach.
It's awesome against Bant Eldrazi... unless they drop a Cavern of Souls. Then it's a dead card for the rest of the game.
It's also awesome against Tron... if they play the half of their deck that the card is good against. The card is really good against Expedition Map, Oblivion Stone and the walkers, but if they start dropping Ulamog or World Breaker, the cast triggers can make Ceremonious Rejection look a little sub-par.
It's also great against Affinity... but they often dump their hand immediately letting most targets slip through it. It's an all-star versus the later "problem" cards like Etched Champion though (which is definitely the number one problem to deal with in that deck).
I still think it's a solid sideboard card, but I just can't get myself to run it anymore because of the odd quirks that come with running it.