Are there anyone who both play GDD and Trinisphere ?
How bad it is?
I love both cards, but the non-bo affrays me.
Any thoughts?
When I was playing GDD, I would run two Trinisphere in the SB and it wasn't as bad as it seems on paper. I obviously ran more cards w/ 3cmc or less compared to non-GDD builds in order to maximize the number of targets, but a lot of those were spells that cost exactly 3 mana (e.g. Beast Within, Molten Rain, Firespout, etc). It was the most problematic when I ran Bolt and Mizzium Mortars. I've moved away from GDD as of late, but if you select your spells wisely and know what to board out then it's totally possible to play both with minimal backlash. I'd probably still be playing that build had it not been for my fascination to brew with Eidolon of the Great Revel; absolutely love playing that card in Ponza.
As somebody who's just picked up Ponza, and is playing around with a little experimentation, does perhaps Hazoret's Undying Fury have a home here? It would directly compete with the primary wincon of the deck for a slot, so obviously it's going to turn heads but I think it has some appeal. It twists the decks arm into building around it (capping spells at 5CMC, but this deck is chockers full of 4 and 5 CMC bombs), and it IS capable of completely fizzling, but in my usage of it in standard with 24 lands and 10 dorks, it has very rarely not been a game-winning card once resolved. There's the obvious drawback of it not hitting Bonfire of the Damned or Firespout, and multiple Blood Moons would be crippling.
But then again, this deck can cheat the lands don't untap phase quite effectively, and if hits multiple LD spells at a point of the game where just a few key basics is what's keeping a player in the game after a blood moon, that's an instant game over.
While I'm usually a proponent of the philosophy "don't knock it 'till you've tried it", I'll make an exception and say this sounds like an awful idea. The possible upside of crapping out something like four Stormbreath Dragon isn't worth the baggage that comes with the card. Terrible in an opening hand and doesn't guarantee anything; whiffing on the top four cards and not being able to untap lands on our next turn isn't a situation in which I'd want to find myself.
I like the single wurmcoil engine I'm seeing in online lists, but when are we boarding it out? if ever?
Re Beast Within: It's a powerful instant for 3cmc; I think with most players it comes down to what cards they must omit to make room for it and how much they value giving the opponent a 3/3 creature. I like to MB the card when I'm playing GDD and run a single in the SB when I'm not playing GDD.
Re WUrmcoil Engine: Just started playing it a few months ago and I've come to absolutely love it. I tend to board it out when I know/suspect my opponent has multiple Paths, SB Rest in Peace or similar exile effects.
I'm curious what you folks think about the "new" 'Legends Rule' and whether it affects Ponza at all? the only Chandra PW I've run is ToD, but I remember people used to play some different iterations of Chandra. Once Ixalan is released and this rule is retroactively applied to all PWs, is there any merit to running another Chandra alongside ToD?
Hello fellow Ponza's friends, long time lurker, first time poster,
I've read quite the whole thread, and got some questions :
How is GDD now? People seem to hate it first, now it gets some love, I personnaly appreciate this card, and I m really willing to play it. Plus, I love 3sphere in SB, and it feels bad together.
What about the new 0 Bird decks ? Am I the only guy unlucky enough to feel that not having 9-10 1 mana-cmc ramp can be annoying? I hate playing Birds, but I m quite affraid of cutting them
Why no love for Huntmaster of the Fells? Each time I play it, it feels amazing, against many decks, and I can't really cut them, unless you prove me I'm missing something
I personnaly can't get why people love Primal Command. I always run 2 of them, and it -most of the time- feels clunky, and I m considering cutting them.
What are people thoughts about Beat Within nowadays ? And Abrade? I run 2 BW and I quite enjoy it.
**** Chandra, this pricing is just so high. Do people think price will go down with standard rotation any time ? Or should I buy them before it gets crazier ?
Thanks bro's
The first three points come down to personal preference, more or less. Based on the recent tourney decklists I've seen, there's not one bonafide Ponza build that has consistently performed better than another (e.g. BoP vs no BoP). However, I've been flirting around with cutting BoP myself lately after reading some of the reports here. A GDD build will look different than a non-GDD list b/c you'll want to run additional copies of < 4cmc spells already in the deck or add some new ones (e.g. Bolt, Beast Within, Molten Rain, etc). Speaking of Beast Within, I like the card when I'm playing with GDD and usually MB a couple copies, but otherwise it's in the SB or cut out depending on the anticipated meta.
To your last few points, I personally love Primal Command and recently went up to two copies after sticking to a singleton for the longest time; it's just a great value card. I never felt it was clunky as a one of, but there have been situations when playing two MB wasn't ideal; I'd suggest dropping down to one and feel it out from there. Lastly, Chandra ToD is the real deal, so it's unfortunate that her price skyrocketed following the success of mono red standard decks. I picked up my two copies for ~$18 USD each and remember thinking that was too expensive at the time; I'm kicking myself for trying to pinch pennies and not buying a whole set. You can certainly build a competitive/successful build without her, but it would be remiss to say that Chandra wouldn't make it just that much better. If you're planning on playing Ponza for the next few months and want to play an optimized deck, then it's worth it to just bite the bullet and snag the cheapest copy you can find on eBay. While she does see play in Legacy and various other Modern decks, the Standard meta game is what's currently propping her up, so it's anyone's guess when/if her price will come down.
Edit: Forgot to mention Huntmaster; you're not alone in your love for the wolf man. Two of my creature slots are fairly fluid and I'll cycle different cards in/out depending on both meta and simple experimentation. Huntmaster and Chameleon Colossus are two threats that I've been enjoying a lot as of late. Like I mentioned above, YMMV with Ponza depending on how you choose to go about building it.
I played a PPTQ two weeks ago and finished 4-2. My losses came to ETron (!!) and Fish. I beat: Death Shadow, ETron, Spirits, PillowFort.
Pillowfort was the deck that made me want to have enchantment hate main going forward. Chameleon Colossus was lights out vs DS.
Is Pillow Fort so prevalent that it would warrant MB enchantment hate? Honestly never knew it existed until reading your post, so I went and did some research; looks like a huge pain in the ass haha. If that deck is becoming popular then I'll have to shelve my Bogles for a while.
I've been reading this thread and have really been loving the amount of flexibility we have in this deck, but sometimes I've found myself a bit confused as to what should go where! I've found that I've had a lot of difficulty beating Death's Shadow (Jund) decks, which from what I've seen here I shouldn't be having THAT much difficulty with (lose almost every time q.q) and I can't quite put my finger on why and was wondering if my list should be changed at all, or if I'm just badly misplaying.
Usually, I'll try SB in the Trinispheres, Magus, Relics, and maybe Finks, so maybe I'm just boarding poorly? The mainboard I love Huntmaster and I've never been terribly sad seeing it which is why I put two. If you have any suggestions I'd be happy to hear them! Going to play casually at a shop tonight so I'm hoping I have better luck today!
Also, any thoughts on star of extinction (5rr, kill a land deal 20 to all creatures and planeswalkers) and lavaball trap? I feel like they could be kind of cool, but might be too high cost or situational and by the time we would get around to playing them, we should be focusing more on ending the game rather than blowing up lands!
Thanks for any help and input!
Slime, Thrun, Thragtusk, & Huntmaster aren't bad cards, but I'd suggest tinkering around in order to accommodate another copy of Stormbreath and another 1-2 of Inferno Titan. For instance, I usually run Thragtusk & Thrun out of the side (when I'm playing them), but it's definitely a meta call.
Ran Bogles tonight at FNM and got wrecked by a Ponza list running Walking Ballista. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see them in action much considering I scooped twice to T3 Blood Moon, however, it gave us some time to bull***** until the next round. I was curious as to his reasoning behind running Ballista over Wurmcoil/copies 3-4 of Inferno Titan and it came down to how well it performs against DS & Affinity. Didn't get to check out the entire list, but now I'm intrigued by Ballista. Just curious if anyone here has tried it out and if so, what're your thoughts?
2) Trinisphere- As mentioned before decks have a lower many curve lately, and there seems to be more combo then i can remember in Modern. Has anybody tested this card in the main lately? Is there really an explanation on why we have never put it in the main?
3) Lightning Bolt - its safe to say lightning bolt has gotten the raw end of the deal with fatal push entering the format. I have seen a lot of people put it in the 75 my question is why? what match-up is it need in? Why not abrade or roast?
I'm sorry if any of this is a repeat, however like i said i'm just trying to get a better understanding of the format and how the deck has evolved.
I'm pretty sure there are a handful of players in this thread who play Trinisphere MB; from what I've seen, the majority of lists that play it have it in the side, but it has definitely been tested in the main. I personally run it in the side, but that's because my list is tailored to my meta and includes more cards with cmc < 3 compared to the standard list. Which brings me to your next point, lightning bolt.
I personally run a full set between MB and SB in addition to 2x Eidolon of the Great Revel. Abrade & Roast can't deal 3 damage to your opponents face; if we're strictly speaking in terms of creature removal, Fatal Push will almost always trump Bolt. However, it's Bolt's versatility that makes it relevant as one R for 3 damage to a creature or opponent's face is just great value. If I were to optimize my deck for a GP or another meta then it's certainly possible I would cut Bolt altogether. I've seen Bolt played in very few tournament lists and only a handful of lists posted in this primer. If you were to poll Ponza players asking who plays Bolt, I think you'd find that it's less prevalent than you've been lead to believe. The standard Ponza shell can be tinkered with quite a bit, so what you're seeing is most likely lists from players who've adapted their lists to their local meta.
I did a quick search and didn't see it brought up, but has anyone looked at replacing red with black? You lose Blood Moon (which is obviously bad), but you have a functional (albeit harder to cast) replacement for Stone Rain in Rain of Tears and gain direct (and better) removal/better card advantage/a different set of threats (Think Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, Grim Flayer, Liliana of the Veil, and a more black/color fixing list could even try to run Phyrexian Obliterator)
It's a fun idea, but Blood Moon is a central cog in the deck. However, I've been waiting years for a chance to play Nettlevine Blight in a competitive deck...
GR Ponza list topped the scg classic in Atlanta today. The list looks a little out dated tho compared to the past month or so of lists I've seen you guys posting.
That's great. To be fair, Ponza is one of the more flexible decks in Modern; it's not often I see two different players running the exact same build. The classic list is solid and a lot of the deck lists posted around here are tinkered with and optimized for that player's particular meta. One reason why I've come to really enjoy playing it.
I've been running 3 Goblins since I first sleaved up Ponza and have tried 4, but found 3 was the perfect amount for me. But I guess your spell selection could affect how many you play too.
I'm still sceptical on Molten Rain's double red for turn two. I have tested it and it doesn't always cause a problem, I just don't want to be in a position where I can't cast it on turn two and that was what cost me the game.
I've been contemplating running a pair of Huntmaster of the Fells, but not sure if I should. Playing them would mean ordering them online._.
Hey Vampire, I've actually been meaning to ask for your thoughts on GDD regarding my particular build. I played around with them a while ago when I first got into the deck, but they didn't stay for too long. I'm always tweaking my decklist and lately I've been running the standard ponza shell + lightning bolt, Mizzium Mortars / Firespout, Molten Rain, etc. I'm also running some other unconventional tech, but these are just the cards I'm running that'd be relevant to GDD. I've been playing with Eidolon of the Great Revel, but after recently upping the number of Moltens/Bolts I'm playing, I've thought about swapping out 3x Eidolons for 3x GDD since the additions made Eidolon less one-sided. I see you're running three GDD, so that answers the first question I had. I'm also curious how many instants/sorceries w/ cmc </= 3 you run in that build? Thanks!
A lot of players are using only 2 Acid Moss these days. I am using Huntmaster instead of say 2 Lightning Bolt or an additional Chameleon Colossus/Thragtusk/Stormbreath Dragon/Inferno Titan.
It is a value engine and machine. It does get taken out fairly frequently but it generally either buys me a turn due to use of removal spell and blocking with the token, but also the lifegain has been relevant before. I think it really depends. It is a super value oriented creature that is fatal pushable. It is also is conditional value. It has lifegain, damage to opponet, kill a creature, more creatures, etc. It is a jack of all trades and master of none. Keeping it in the main provides another 4cc creature and an additional maindeck answer to burn.
I can also vouch for Huntmaster due to many of the reasons you mentioned. I took out - 1x Inferno & - 1x Thragtusk to run two in the MB.
"Q: How would Trinisphere interact with something like a Blazing Shoal? --Travis B.
A: Trinisphere is strange in that it looks at what the player is actually going to spend. If you Blazing Shoal by paying mana, and X is 1 or more, Trinisphere doesn't notice. If you pitch a card to pay for Blazing Shoal's cost, you haven't paid any mana, so Trinisphere will make you spend . Let's say you pitch a card to pay the mana cost and also splice on Glacial Ray. When Trinisphere takes a look, it sees you actually spending , so it'll tack on an extra to make you spend three."
Can some of the trinisphere players discuss the card in general and how many main / SB?
I just picked some up and it looks like a great plan -- but unsure as to how many to run.
Also as far as artifact hate goes for affinity / lantern decks what are you guys running?
I have 2 anger / 2 ancient grudge in side for affinity but do I need corrosion / shatterstorm for the lantern matchup?
Also so I don't get hosed by a random hexproof deck should I run the fracturing gusts?
I wouldn't run Fracturing Gusts or any hexproof-specific hate unless it's common in your local meta or you're playing in a tourney where it's well positioned. If you were to run some form of hate solely directed toward hexproof, then as a longtime Bogles player, I'd say Aura Barbs is your one-armed man. That card will ***** in the dinner of any opponent playing Bogles.
Seeing all this talk about planeswalkers has me wondering whether we could pull off playing Doubling Season or if it's just too cute? The 5cmc is steep, but if we can hit on our drops and ramp into it early, there are quite a few walkers with game-ending ultimates which we can drop the following turn. Just a thought; curious to hear if you folks think it'd be feasible.
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When I was playing GDD, I would run two Trinisphere in the SB and it wasn't as bad as it seems on paper. I obviously ran more cards w/ 3cmc or less compared to non-GDD builds in order to maximize the number of targets, but a lot of those were spells that cost exactly 3 mana (e.g. Beast Within, Molten Rain, Firespout, etc). It was the most problematic when I ran Bolt and Mizzium Mortars. I've moved away from GDD as of late, but if you select your spells wisely and know what to board out then it's totally possible to play both with minimal backlash. I'd probably still be playing that build had it not been for my fascination to brew with Eidolon of the Great Revel; absolutely love playing that card in Ponza.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
While I'm usually a proponent of the philosophy "don't knock it 'till you've tried it", I'll make an exception and say this sounds like an awful idea. The possible upside of crapping out something like four Stormbreath Dragon isn't worth the baggage that comes with the card. Terrible in an opening hand and doesn't guarantee anything; whiffing on the top four cards and not being able to untap lands on our next turn isn't a situation in which I'd want to find myself.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Re Beast Within: It's a powerful instant for 3cmc; I think with most players it comes down to what cards they must omit to make room for it and how much they value giving the opponent a 3/3 creature. I like to MB the card when I'm playing GDD and run a single in the SB when I'm not playing GDD.
Re WUrmcoil Engine: Just started playing it a few months ago and I've come to absolutely love it. I tend to board it out when I know/suspect my opponent has multiple Paths, SB Rest in Peace or similar exile effects.
I'm curious what you folks think about the "new" 'Legends Rule' and whether it affects Ponza at all? the only Chandra PW I've run is ToD, but I remember people used to play some different iterations of Chandra. Once Ixalan is released and this rule is retroactively applied to all PWs, is there any merit to running another Chandra alongside ToD?
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
The first three points come down to personal preference, more or less. Based on the recent tourney decklists I've seen, there's not one bonafide Ponza build that has consistently performed better than another (e.g. BoP vs no BoP). However, I've been flirting around with cutting BoP myself lately after reading some of the reports here. A GDD build will look different than a non-GDD list b/c you'll want to run additional copies of < 4cmc spells already in the deck or add some new ones (e.g. Bolt, Beast Within, Molten Rain, etc). Speaking of Beast Within, I like the card when I'm playing with GDD and usually MB a couple copies, but otherwise it's in the SB or cut out depending on the anticipated meta.
To your last few points, I personally love Primal Command and recently went up to two copies after sticking to a singleton for the longest time; it's just a great value card. I never felt it was clunky as a one of, but there have been situations when playing two MB wasn't ideal; I'd suggest dropping down to one and feel it out from there. Lastly, Chandra ToD is the real deal, so it's unfortunate that her price skyrocketed following the success of mono red standard decks. I picked up my two copies for ~$18 USD each and remember thinking that was too expensive at the time; I'm kicking myself for trying to pinch pennies and not buying a whole set. You can certainly build a competitive/successful build without her, but it would be remiss to say that Chandra wouldn't make it just that much better. If you're planning on playing Ponza for the next few months and want to play an optimized deck, then it's worth it to just bite the bullet and snag the cheapest copy you can find on eBay. While she does see play in Legacy and various other Modern decks, the Standard meta game is what's currently propping her up, so it's anyone's guess when/if her price will come down.
Edit: Forgot to mention Huntmaster; you're not alone in your love for the wolf man. Two of my creature slots are fairly fluid and I'll cycle different cards in/out depending on both meta and simple experimentation. Huntmaster and Chameleon Colossus are two threats that I've been enjoying a lot as of late. Like I mentioned above, YMMV with Ponza depending on how you choose to go about building it.
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Is Pillow Fort so prevalent that it would warrant MB enchantment hate? Honestly never knew it existed until reading your post, so I went and did some research; looks like a huge pain in the ass haha. If that deck is becoming popular then I'll have to shelve my Bogles for a while.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Slime, Thrun, Thragtusk, & Huntmaster aren't bad cards, but I'd suggest tinkering around in order to accommodate another copy of Stormbreath and another 1-2 of Inferno Titan. For instance, I usually run Thragtusk & Thrun out of the side (when I'm playing them), but it's definitely a meta call.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I'm pretty sure there are a handful of players in this thread who play Trinisphere MB; from what I've seen, the majority of lists that play it have it in the side, but it has definitely been tested in the main. I personally run it in the side, but that's because my list is tailored to my meta and includes more cards with cmc < 3 compared to the standard list. Which brings me to your next point, lightning bolt.
I personally run a full set between MB and SB in addition to 2x Eidolon of the Great Revel. Abrade & Roast can't deal 3 damage to your opponents face; if we're strictly speaking in terms of creature removal, Fatal Push will almost always trump Bolt. However, it's Bolt's versatility that makes it relevant as one R for 3 damage to a creature or opponent's face is just great value. If I were to optimize my deck for a GP or another meta then it's certainly possible I would cut Bolt altogether. I've seen Bolt played in very few tournament lists and only a handful of lists posted in this primer. If you were to poll Ponza players asking who plays Bolt, I think you'd find that it's less prevalent than you've been lead to believe. The standard Ponza shell can be tinkered with quite a bit, so what you're seeing is most likely lists from players who've adapted their lists to their local meta.
It's a fun idea, but Blood Moon is a central cog in the deck. However, I've been waiting years for a chance to play Nettlevine Blight in a competitive deck...
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That's great. To be fair, Ponza is one of the more flexible decks in Modern; it's not often I see two different players running the exact same build. The classic list is solid and a lot of the deck lists posted around here are tinkered with and optimized for that player's particular meta. One reason why I've come to really enjoy playing it.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Hey Vampire, I've actually been meaning to ask for your thoughts on GDD regarding my particular build. I played around with them a while ago when I first got into the deck, but they didn't stay for too long. I'm always tweaking my decklist and lately I've been running the standard ponza shell + lightning bolt, Mizzium Mortars / Firespout, Molten Rain, etc. I'm also running some other unconventional tech, but these are just the cards I'm running that'd be relevant to GDD. I've been playing with Eidolon of the Great Revel, but after recently upping the number of Moltens/Bolts I'm playing, I've thought about swapping out 3x Eidolons for 3x GDD since the additions made Eidolon less one-sided. I see you're running three GDD, so that answers the first question I had. I'm also curious how many instants/sorceries w/ cmc </= 3 you run in that build? Thanks!
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I can also vouch for Huntmaster due to many of the reasons you mentioned. I took out - 1x Inferno & - 1x Thragtusk to run two in the MB.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
"Q: How would Trinisphere interact with something like a Blazing Shoal? --Travis B.
A: Trinisphere is strange in that it looks at what the player is actually going to spend. If you Blazing Shoal by paying mana, and X is 1 or more, Trinisphere doesn't notice. If you pitch a card to pay for Blazing Shoal's cost, you haven't paid any mana, so Trinisphere will make you spend . Let's say you pitch a card to pay the mana cost and also splice on Glacial Ray. When Trinisphere takes a look, it sees you actually spending , so it'll tack on an extra to make you spend three."
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
I wouldn't run Fracturing Gusts or any hexproof-specific hate unless it's common in your local meta or you're playing in a tourney where it's well positioned. If you were to run some form of hate solely directed toward hexproof, then as a longtime Bogles player, I'd say Aura Barbs is your one-armed man. That card will ***** in the dinner of any opponent playing Bogles.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.