For those unsure about the burn matchup (I switched from burn to play Ponza but I still play it about 25% of the time in Modern and 100% of the time in Legacy) Blood Moon isn’t that great. You can keep in the other Rain effects because Trinisphere is your friend here along with your life gain package.
I do exactly the opposite. I keep Blood Moon in as it shuts off Boros Charm, Lightning Helix, Destructive Revelry and possibly Atarka's Command. I find it pretty hard to lock Burn out under a Trinisphere. Sure it's possible to lock them out of the game but they have way more lands than we have land destruction spells, so they eventually draw out of the lock and we end up drawing land destruction when they have 4 lands in play.
A second more practical reason is that I always have lots of cards that I want to bring in against Burn: Trinispheres, Kitchen Finks, Obstinate Baloths, and I need to side something out, so out goes the land destruction.
I found Blood Moon to be a dead draw against them. Even against a RW Burn opponent, I would prefer the moon to be more life gain or another creature that can block guides. They would only have 2 or 3 copies of Deflecting Palm in their 75, so they won't always have it. If they fetched the sacred foundry, then I will destroy it. If they keep a fetch uncracked, then I will destroy their other lands to try and reduce them to one mana. And on Burn players that I know, even if they represent the palm with RW mana open, they are sometimes... bluffing it - although there was one time I received 5 damage from a palmed tireless tracker.
Deflecting Palm is no joke. I'll bring out my Mardu Burn deck if the meta calls for it, but lately I've been pretty steady on just Bogles and Ponza. Despite running a full set myself whenever I'm on Burn, I still manage to get annihilated by Palm whenever I'm up against Burn, especially with Bogles. Nothing hurts more than having your hex proof, trample, lifelink, vigilance,first strike Bogle swing in, for what you think will be lethal, and then getting your soul crushed as ******* Palm hits the board and proceeds to take a dump on your chest. I'm definitely not bitter or anything....
We have 4 Trackers, and some of you want to have 1-2 Hazoret in decks. When we resolve one of Trackers we will start producing Clues and at the first moment when we have free 2 mana we will sac them to draw a card, yep? We won't just sit around and don't break clues cause somewhere in deck we have one or two copies of Haz. So when we finally draw Haz our hand is full of cards very often. And if in the past you could discard 6th-7th-8th-... land to Haz ability, cause we didn't need them, now with TT we need all our lands to be played to produce Clues.
Hazoret is not good enough to be playable in our deck. See latest tournament decks that showed some success, see Complete Archetype Analysis here - there are 0 Hazorets even in Maybe-board.
Have you tried playing Haz with 3/4 trackers? Or even just playing 3/4 trackers and keeping track of your hand size past turn 4?
The "analysis" that you linked showed a total of 19 decks since 16th Feb 2018. There is just too little data off it to say anything significant statically. It doesn't list even all the possible variations of ponza. Moreover, tracker only started gaining steam 3~4 months ago.
My experiences of 30 plus games with the both of them together is that they feel pretty good together. Haz is more of a safety card in case ***** happens and we cant get a tracker to stick around. If the dream scenario of us having a huge hand (more than 3 cards), I will be more than happy with a Haz stuck in my hand or on board being unable to attack. I recommend keeping track of your hand sizes through the games on ponza. I rarely have more than 3 cards in hand after T4 even with active trackers on board and hitting land drops.
As a blocker, Haz vastly outclass Chameleon Col. It dodges all non-exile effects. C.Col only outclasses Haz as a blocker when the attacker has trample and you having mana up to pump your C Col.
Well that's just using anecdotal evidence to dispute empirical data that has a small sample size. Regardless, I think it's fair to say neither of those philosophies can be outright dismissed at this point in time.
Much has been said about Nissa, Voice. I think in general we can agree that in a vacuum, she's pretty weak and pretty much the reason to run her was that she worked well with PKN. Really if you have 0 copies of PKN, there is not much benefit to running her. I tried to sell her many pages ago on this thread but I didn't have the ammunition to go on; apart from that sweet Voice into PKN synergy, she didn't provide anything else important.
Now though, the addition of 2 staples changes this.
1. Tireless Tracker
2. Bloodbraid Elf
What does Tireless Tracker have to do with PKN? This is an indirect benefit. Tireless tracker is good by herself. That much is established. The clues she makes can serve double duty with PKN. If tracker is removed, a PKN later can convert your stack of clues into a flurry of burn. By increasing the stock of PKN in this deck, Tireless Tracker has indirectly increased the stock of Nissa Voice.
Bloodbraid Elf's interaction with Voice is bit more straightfoward. There are not many 3 cmc planeswalkers worth playing in our colors, and this one, as mentioned above, works well with PKN which works well with Tracker. Taken as a sum, they present quite the party package. Cascading into Voice means you're attacking with a 4/3 or starting a collection of house plants, which isn't terrible since you can eventually swarm any Goyfs or shadows manning the fort.
Nissa's great weakness is perhaps her lack of raw power on her lonesome. Starting a collection of houseplants isn't an amazing thing to be doing in modern. But given the way the deck has evolved, her -2 could prove powerful, and her +1 a way of going wide.
Agreed. I was pretty hesitant to experiment with Nissa at first, but she's quickly become an all-star for me as of late. She's barely a mediocre PW on her own, but she can escalate our board state fairly quickly when surrounded by complementary pieces and left unchecked. Worth noting that I run Birds/Nobles, so exalted triggers have played a key role in the games where she's won me games.
d. Stormbreath and inferno titan feel like necessary "over the top" bombs that let you end games in 1-2 turns. Although tarmogoyf is an excellent magic card, I never felt like I was missing it tonight- there's a lot of speculation on whether a lower to the ground, creature heavy G/R midrange list with goyfs and hierarchs could be better than the traditional LD gameplan. I don't think this is correct primarily because we don't play black and can't control the size of goyf with all of black's discard options. Jund and abzan remain the far and away best tarmogoyf decks. Temur is probably also a better home for the goofball.
Congrats on the 3-1. In regards to Goyf/Hierarch builds, or "Noble Moon" as dubbed by the Ponza FB page, the deck typically still runs the same number of LD spells +/- 1-2 Moltens. It's true that we can't directly affect the size of Goyf via targeted discard effects, but it's rare for him to come out as anything less than a 3/4 (4/5 attacker w/ exalted trigger) and that's a solid value for 2 cmc. However, the main reason for running this build is to eliminate the chance of dead hits off of BBE; it's still susceptible to cascading into ramp, but at a lesser rate and the ramp that we do hit comes with additional utility thanks to Noble's exalted trigger(s). For example, BoP is a pretty bad BBE hit in other lists, but in Noble Moon variants it can turn into a legitimate threat and win games if the opponent can't deal with flyers and we have one or more exalted triggers in addition to a Nisaa, VoZ that can be ticked down -2.
Can you post a list of this Noble Moon deck please?
Yessir. There's also a link there to the OP's Reddit thread regarding the build.
d. Stormbreath and inferno titan feel like necessary "over the top" bombs that let you end games in 1-2 turns. Although tarmogoyf is an excellent magic card, I never felt like I was missing it tonight- there's a lot of speculation on whether a lower to the ground, creature heavy G/R midrange list with goyfs and hierarchs could be better than the traditional LD gameplan. I don't think this is correct primarily because we don't play black and can't control the size of goyf with all of black's discard options. Jund and abzan remain the far and away best tarmogoyf decks. Temur is probably also a better home for the goofball.
Congrats on the 3-1. In regards to Goyf/Hierarch builds, or "Noble Moon" as dubbed by the Ponza FB page, the deck typically still runs the same number of LD spells +/- 1-2 Moltens. It's true that we can't directly affect the size of Goyf via targeted discard effects, but it's rare for him to come out as anything less than a 3/4 (4/5 attacker w/ exalted trigger) and that's a solid value for 2 cmc. However, the main reason for running this build is to eliminate the chance of dead hits off of BBE; it's still susceptible to cascading into ramp, but at a lesser rate and the ramp that we do hit comes with additional utility thanks to Noble's exalted trigger(s). For example, BoP is a pretty bad BBE hit in other lists, but in Noble Moon variants it can turn into a legitimate threat and win games if the opponent can't deal with flyers and we have one or more exalted triggers in addition to a Nisaa, VoZ that can be ticked down -2.
From what little information we've been able to gather since BBE was unbanned, I think each Ponza variant has its own merits and all can be viable strategies. I find it rather comical considering that was pretty much the case prior to BBE's unban as well; there was no singular decklist that could be considered the "optimal" choice and that's actually one of the reasons that drew me to building Ponza in the first place. The other reasons being my penchant for blowing up lands and making opponents miserable with Blood Moon effects...
Well now that it has been spoiled that Blood Moon will be in M25 it is going to drop the cost of the deck down a considerable amount. That along with the new precon deck that has Chandra and Hazoret make it much more affordable. This means more people will become more interested in the deck so the primer may get a flood of questions from newer players. I’m not sure who is in charge of the primer but maybe we should have 2 parts (one being old Ponza and one with BBE) as they are 2 different decks now.
True. However, if the archetype starts to gain momentum then the price choke point will shift to the next fundamental piece of the deck; I'd expect a Utopia Sprawl or Tracker spike (assuming neither gets a reprint anytime soon), so if anyone is lurking and hasn't built the deck yet then they'll wanna jump on those two sooner than later.
Utopia Sprawl is also in the set now as well so it is just Tracker which has seen some increases over the last couple of weeks already.
No *****? That's great! This set single-handedly destroyed the cost barriers of entry into the deck; the number of excuses for not running a play set of Goyfs is getting smaller and smaller every day
Well now that it has been spoiled that Blood Moon will be in M25 it is going to drop the cost of the deck down a considerable amount. That along with the new precon deck that has Chandra and Hazoret make it much more affordable. This means more people will become more interested in the deck so the primer may get a flood of questions from newer players. I’m not sure who is in charge of the primer but maybe we should have 2 parts (one being old Ponza and one with BBE) as they are 2 different decks now.
True. However, if the archetype starts to gain momentum then the price choke point will shift to the next fundamental piece of the deck; I'd expect a Utopia Sprawl or Tracker spike (assuming neither gets a reprint anytime soon), so if anyone is lurking and hasn't built the deck yet then they'll wanna jump on those two sooner than later.
Ancient Grudge is better against the deck we need it the most, Affinity. They can deal with 1 spot removal. They have a tougher time against 2 on the same card. It is also better against Lantern Control. There aren’t really any enchantments we are worried about. Boggles can be somewhat annoying, but if you play Trinisphere and Stone Rain them you should be fine. Trinisphere and Fracturing Gust pretty much wins you the game. Keep in mind they can’t play Daybreak Cornet until turn 3. You can also Beast Within just that Enchantment and be fine as well.
Pretty spot on. When I'm not on Ponza, I'm piloting Bogles and hate when I get matched up with Ponza. T2 Blood Moon is GG and since most lists only run 2-3 basics, even a late game Moon + Stone Rain is usually game over.
Two different ponza versions made the 5-0 decklist posting for MTGO (both ran 4 BBE)- neither of these are mine but I wanted to share them here to start some more discussion:
This first version is more of a traditional list with the high end threats but with 4 molten rain in the mainboard for extra BBE hits.
The second is more of what I expect to see more in the future for ponza- lower to the ground, more aggressive version of the deck with overall less mana accelerants, slightly less high end threats, but a lot of built in resilience and grind potential with 4x tracker, 4x BBE, and 2x chandra.
This is starting to lean to more of a "G/R goodstuff" list than traditional ponza. It makes more sense to me because the power level of each card is much higher in a vacuum than old ponza lists- modern is a brutal, fast, and disruptive format, and having your deck still be able to function when things don't go completely according to plan is important. Durdling for too long also gives your opponent the opportunity to get back in games you should be winning. There's no doubt that ponza lists need to adapt to increase the amount of BBE hits, playing arguably the best 2 drop in the format is a good place to start- goyf. I'll be experimenting with something similar to this in the future and post some thoughts later on after I've gotten a lot of playtesting in.
Agreed. The second list is nearly identical to mine except the mosses are Moltens, no Finks in the MB, +1 Magus of the Moon, only 1 Chandra + 1 Nissa, & + 3 Domri Rade. It has been a house for me thus far.
Here is my build so far, tested against BBE Jund yesterday, it was pretty good. Did some sideboard with Titan, he was a house against Jund. Stormbreath was also amazing. Somehow had Scavenging Ooze in the deck, so i must have been at 62 cards. Scooze was great. Not sure what I would take out for 2, but I want them. Maybe 1 Birds, 1 Courser? Or maybe Beast Within just isn't good enough.
Finks are great in quite a few matchups; just wouldn't run them in the MB. Scooze are solid; Deathgorge Scavenger is another option that pulls its own weight. With BBE unbanned, Goyf is just pure value-town and too good not to play, but that price tag is an unfortunate cost-barrier.
For those who are playing BBE in a Ponza shell w/ typical ramp (~8-10 sources), I'm curious how you'd compare your BBE list to a non-BBE list? I've played quite a few matches against what seemed like standard Ponza builds just w/ 4 BBE jammed in and it's pretty underwhelming; resolving a BBE and cascading into a Utopia Sprawl is pretty *****ty and occurs far too often. It sucks because the deck has always been pretty budget-friendly, but I really think that overhauling our ramp package with Noble Hierarch is the right move for any list that wants to play BBE. That's just based on the limited data we have since the B&R announcement, but when you consider that a minimum ~17% of the deck consists of bad BBE targets, the writing is on the wall.
While it's of course preferable to cascade into something more powerful than Utopia Sprawl, I feel I should point out that even if you do, it means you've gotten it "out of the way" and brought yourself closer to more relevant cards to draw.
Absolutely. However at that point, wouldn't it be more preferable to just resolve a Chandra? I'm curious to see if typical Ponza lists + BBE ultimately perform significantly better than w/o BBE. In a another shell with a different ramp package consisting of Nobles rather than Sprawls, your "worst" cascade would be into a dork/chump blocker.
IMO, Fulminator isn't something you want in Ponza. It might be a different story if it could hit basics, but otherwise he's just a 2/2 body that requires two red sources to cast or a sub-par BBE target; not very helpful when you have a Blood Moon out and can make for clunky opening hands. If I had to choose, I'd rather have Magus of the Moon as it plays nice with the rest of the deck and is usually just a 5th copy of Blood Moon.
For those who are playing BBE in a Ponza shell w/ typical ramp (~8-10 sources), I'm curious how you'd compare your BBE list to a non-BBE list? I've played quite a few matches against what seemed like standard Ponza builds just w/ 4 BBE jammed in and it's pretty underwhelming; resolving a BBE and cascading into a Utopia Sprawl is pretty *****ty and occurs far too often. It sucks because the deck has always been pretty budget-friendly, but I really think that overhauling our ramp package with Noble Hierarch is the right move for any list that wants to play BBE. That's just based on the limited data we have since the B&R announcement, but when you consider that a minimum ~17% of the deck consists of bad BBE targets, the writing is on the wall.
@Joban: That's a 63-card deck, really throwing me off there.
You know it. I like to live dangerously. I rarely ever stick to a MB that's exactly 60 cards; never go above 65 however. Just an odd habit that has stuck with me since I started playing as a youngin.
Here's the BBE Ponza list I came up with last Fall; I've since tweaked it to account for shifts in the meta, but it's the list that I'll be testing out. I will say one thing: if the BBE hype holds up and it finds success in the format, I think it's inevitable that there will be a divergence point where two versions of the "Ponza" build will break away; one being an actual Ponza list still running ramp and a suite of LD options, but with a lower curve and then another being more of a Gruul Midrange deck that may look like Ponza at first glance, but the only real similarities will be Blood Moon.
Haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet, but this was my first attempt at incorporating BBE while not ending up with just a "Gruul Moon" list. As much as it hurts gutting and re-tooling the ramp package, I think it's necessary if we're going to be playing a set of BBE. Noble Hierarch lets us ramp, but she also offers additional utility from her ability. For some, cutting BoP seems like the obvious option, but the real floor for BBE is cascading into an Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl as play sets of those two cards would account for ~13% of the deck. I'm sure I'll make countless changes to this list as the BBE experiment goes on, but this is my starting point. Other considerations: Simian Spirit Guide, Fire-Lit Thicket, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, & a whole different list that cuts GDD + some of the instant/sorcery spells in favor of more creatures. Thoughts and opinions welcomed. I'll try to provide updates of any results.
Nah Jace is overrated. He much like bitterblossom will hit like a thud. People will try to make it work but will find out it isn’t all that. Between the 2 BBE keeps Jace in check. Joban while some scoff I promise you BBE is what we should be playing at least as a 3 of and will alter the cards we play. Mizzium Mortars definitely makes a case now and BOP is absolutely the worst of garbage.
Don't get me wrong, Cajun; I'm all aboard the BBE Ponza train. That's actually why I made the comment; I proposed the possibility of a BBE list back in November when the rumor mill started churning and the majority opinion was that BBE has no place in Ponza and wouldn't be played if unbanned. Will this be the case? It very well could be, but we won't know until we get some data points. Talk about Winds of Change, amIrite?
Deflecting Palm is no joke. I'll bring out my Mardu Burn deck if the meta calls for it, but lately I've been pretty steady on just Bogles and Ponza. Despite running a full set myself whenever I'm on Burn, I still manage to get annihilated by Palm whenever I'm up against Burn, especially with Bogles. Nothing hurts more than having your hex proof, trample, lifelink, vigilance,first strike Bogle swing in, for what you think will be lethal, and then getting your soul crushed as ******* Palm hits the board and proceeds to take a dump on your chest. I'm definitely not bitter or anything....
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Well that's just using anecdotal evidence to dispute empirical data that has a small sample size. Regardless, I think it's fair to say neither of those philosophies can be outright dismissed at this point in time.
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Agreed. I was pretty hesitant to experiment with Nissa at first, but she's quickly become an all-star for me as of late. She's barely a mediocre PW on her own, but she can escalate our board state fairly quickly when surrounded by complementary pieces and left unchecked. Worth noting that I run Birds/Nobles, so exalted triggers have played a key role in the games where she's won me games.
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Yessir. There's also a link there to the OP's Reddit thread regarding the build.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Congrats on the 3-1. In regards to Goyf/Hierarch builds, or "Noble Moon" as dubbed by the Ponza FB page, the deck typically still runs the same number of LD spells +/- 1-2 Moltens. It's true that we can't directly affect the size of Goyf via targeted discard effects, but it's rare for him to come out as anything less than a 3/4 (4/5 attacker w/ exalted trigger) and that's a solid value for 2 cmc. However, the main reason for running this build is to eliminate the chance of dead hits off of BBE; it's still susceptible to cascading into ramp, but at a lesser rate and the ramp that we do hit comes with additional utility thanks to Noble's exalted trigger(s). For example, BoP is a pretty bad BBE hit in other lists, but in Noble Moon variants it can turn into a legitimate threat and win games if the opponent can't deal with flyers and we have one or more exalted triggers in addition to a Nisaa, VoZ that can be ticked down -2.
From what little information we've been able to gather since BBE was unbanned, I think each Ponza variant has its own merits and all can be viable strategies. I find it rather comical considering that was pretty much the case prior to BBE's unban as well; there was no singular decklist that could be considered the "optimal" choice and that's actually one of the reasons that drew me to building Ponza in the first place. The other reasons being my penchant for blowing up lands and making opponents miserable with Blood Moon effects...
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No *****? That's great! This set single-handedly destroyed the cost barriers of entry into the deck; the number of excuses for not running a play set of Goyfs is getting smaller and smaller every day
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
True. However, if the archetype starts to gain momentum then the price choke point will shift to the next fundamental piece of the deck; I'd expect a Utopia Sprawl or Tracker spike (assuming neither gets a reprint anytime soon), so if anyone is lurking and hasn't built the deck yet then they'll wanna jump on those two sooner than later.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Pretty spot on. When I'm not on Ponza, I'm piloting Bogles and hate when I get matched up with Ponza. T2 Blood Moon is GG and since most lists only run 2-3 basics, even a late game Moon + Stone Rain is usually game over.
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Agreed. The second list is nearly identical to mine except the mosses are Moltens, no Finks in the MB, +1 Magus of the Moon, only 1 Chandra + 1 Nissa, & + 3 Domri Rade. It has been a house for me thus far.
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Finks are great in quite a few matchups; just wouldn't run them in the MB. Scooze are solid; Deathgorge Scavenger is another option that pulls its own weight. With BBE unbanned, Goyf is just pure value-town and too good not to play, but that price tag is an unfortunate cost-barrier.
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Absolutely. However at that point, wouldn't it be more preferable to just resolve a Chandra? I'm curious to see if typical Ponza lists + BBE ultimately perform significantly better than w/o BBE. In a another shell with a different ramp package consisting of Nobles rather than Sprawls, your "worst" cascade would be into a dork/chump blocker.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
IMO, Fulminator isn't something you want in Ponza. It might be a different story if it could hit basics, but otherwise he's just a 2/2 body that requires two red sources to cast or a sub-par BBE target; not very helpful when you have a Blood Moon out and can make for clunky opening hands. If I had to choose, I'd rather have Magus of the Moon as it plays nice with the rest of the deck and is usually just a 5th copy of Blood Moon.
For those who are playing BBE in a Ponza shell w/ typical ramp (~8-10 sources), I'm curious how you'd compare your BBE list to a non-BBE list? I've played quite a few matches against what seemed like standard Ponza builds just w/ 4 BBE jammed in and it's pretty underwhelming; resolving a BBE and cascading into a Utopia Sprawl is pretty *****ty and occurs far too often. It sucks because the deck has always been pretty budget-friendly, but I really think that overhauling our ramp package with Noble Hierarch is the right move for any list that wants to play BBE. That's just based on the limited data we have since the B&R announcement, but when you consider that a minimum ~17% of the deck consists of bad BBE targets, the writing is on the wall.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
You know it. I like to live dangerously. I rarely ever stick to a MB that's exactly 60 cards; never go above 65 however. Just an odd habit that has stuck with me since I started playing as a youngin.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Stormbreath Dragon
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Magus of the Moon
Instants(6):
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Beast Within
4 Stone Rain
2 Molten Rain
Planeswalkers(4):
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 Domri Rade
Enchantments:
4 Blood Moon
Land(21):
2 Mountain
7 Forest
1 Cinder Glade
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Abrade
1 Chameleon Colossus
3 Mizzium Mortars
2 Choke
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Trinisphere
Haven't gotten a chance to play with it yet, but this was my first attempt at incorporating BBE while not ending up with just a "Gruul Moon" list. As much as it hurts gutting and re-tooling the ramp package, I think it's necessary if we're going to be playing a set of BBE. Noble Hierarch lets us ramp, but she also offers additional utility from her ability. For some, cutting BoP seems like the obvious option, but the real floor for BBE is cascading into an Arbor Elf/Utopia Sprawl as play sets of those two cards would account for ~13% of the deck. I'm sure I'll make countless changes to this list as the BBE experiment goes on, but this is my starting point. Other considerations: Simian Spirit Guide, Fire-Lit Thicket, Nissa, Voice of Zendikar, & a whole different list that cuts GDD + some of the instant/sorcery spells in favor of more creatures. Thoughts and opinions welcomed. I'll try to provide updates of any results.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Don't get me wrong, Cajun; I'm all aboard the BBE Ponza train. That's actually why I made the comment; I proposed the possibility of a BBE list back in November when the rumor mill started churning and the majority opinion was that BBE has no place in Ponza and wouldn't be played if unbanned. Will this be the case? It very well could be, but we won't know until we get some data points. Talk about Winds of Change, amIrite?
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.