I've also been kicking around setting up some kind of inbox for players to escalate issues directly to the Council if they aren't satisfied with the way a host is handling a game. Could probably set up something on Discord easier than anything directly on-site (which would either involve software changes or council members logging into another mutual account to check reports), but I haven't even figured out if it's technically feasible yet let alone discussed with the other Councilors if this is something they would support.
Feyd could setup a zone ala EDH Primer Committee for the Mafia Council, in which you have mod level powers and everyone else can only see their own threads.
Can confirm that this is likely feasible on the technical end of things.
For the sake of transparency, I want to go ahead and announce that the council has formally set a minimum year long, strict probation with D_V. We ask that any players and hosts who see any sort of behavior that is less than ideal, please immediately contact one of the council and we will review and take action as needed. Thank you. If you have any questions, please let us know.
@Bur: Please update the hosting thread probation list with this.
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@Eco: I'm not opposed to Mods giving a monthly report on reports/cards activity, but I might have to be prompted and reminded to do this as if it's only a monthly thing, I'm likely to forget that it needs to be done.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As someone who's played over 100 Mafia games across 10+ different sites, players are often unwelcome to playstyles that don't fit within their meta and perceive these behaviors as scummy. In addition to this, when players seem uncooperative to other people's scumhunting tactics, or generally refuse to reach the logical conclusion in the face of plenty of evidence indicative of that truth, it comes across as either deliberately obtuse, or scummy. All of these can be extremely frustrating facets of player behavior to deal with, and that frustration can easily get ramped up to an 11 if the player performing those behaviors seems unrepentant or even trolly about it, after initial frustration has been expressed. Given that I have seen these behaviors in a number of MAL players, it makes perfect sense to me that we have a culture clash. MTGS Mafia players, as a whole, tend to take the game a lot more seriously/use much heavier analysis than a lot of other sites, and to not feel like someone else is carrying their weight in a Mafia game - a team game - can make people angry. When you're on the receiving end of that sort of ire on a regular basis, playing a game you've played perhaps dozens of times, and doing what you normally do during that game, it is also frustrating, because why should you have to change what's worked for you so many times before just because you're rubbing a few people the wrong way? Additionally, MTGS (and MTGS Mafia) as a whole has pretty strict flaming rules and the like, a lot of which I see far more leeway on in other site rules.
I'm not excusing the behavior of people who have been unwelcome to our visiting players from other sites; rather, I'm just saying I completely understand the frustration on both ends, and why perhaps players like DBS and LW feel unwelcome in our games. It's a failure to adapt on both ends because we have a really hardcore Mafia culture.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Excuse me? Someone used the fact that I had expressed disapproval for lynching regardless of alignment to try to angleshoot me into replacing out of a currently ongoing game. You're condoning that now?
No, that sounds like bullying and the only encouragement that people should be receiving to replace out is if the player clearly doesn't have time for the game, or if the mental/emotional health of the player is being compromised by the game. That is an entirely different matter from "I'm going to try to policy lynch you because I don't like how you play the game".
Wrath_of_DoG attempted to lynch me in every single game we played in together past a certain point, simply because he didn't like me as a Mafia player. I didn't complain a single time. I tried to reason with him and talk to him about it, but he shut down all forms of communication regarding the matter. Instead of stooping to his level or being rude about it, I simply outplayed him and got him counter-lynched or Vigged in response to his antagonism.
There are alternative solutions.
Edit: Such as requesting the host and/or Council look into the player in question. Not just suggesting we let that go untouched.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I mean, there's a bit at the end about post restrictions but that's definitely not the only thing I was referring to, it was just the most... obvious example of a reason why someone would lynch a player for reasons other than alignment. Another is to avoid a no lynch -- I've probably actively helped hang at least a dozen players when I thought they were town just to not "waste" a day and move the game forward. I've also dug in my heels and refused to vote for players I think are town, and they usually end up in the noose regardless because of other players wanting to avoid that.
I'm 100% okay with adding a rule to the board-wide rules that says "If you have a problem with a player, your first course of action should be to contact the game host, and if they are flaming, trolling, or spamming, please report the offending posts so a board moderator can handle it."
But I'm not going to ask, let alone force, a host to modkill players if they choose to remove a player they feel is problematic or damaging the game by hanging them. If the player isn't correcting their behavior in the face of over the half the players in it asking them to stop because they are making the game unenjoyable, then threatening them to, they probably aren't going to listen to the host, either.
/barn
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@DV: I think I made the exact same argument to osie - that if people are lynching him for reasons that aren't related to his alignment, he is obviously doing something they did not like and that he should probably not do that in the future, as if a group of people deem you disruptive or unenjoyable enough to remove you from their immediate area at the risk of losing several months' worth of emotional or mental investment, well...that says a lot.
I don't think that osie's rule suggestion is an easy one to enforce, as players can just easily say, "Well, he was obfuscating the game, so I thought he was scum," rather than "I lynched him because he was being disruptive to the game's health/integrity." While yes, it makes sense to say to the host, "Hey, I asked Dudeguy to stop duding up the thread, but he won't stop," at some point, you have to examine yourself and ask, "Am I the problem?" If you're threatening to take your ball and go home because people won't let you play the way you want at the detriment of their enjoyment of the game, do you really want to be that guy rather than to take a moment of introspection?
I don't necessarily think "no posting restrictions" is easy to enforce, either, but may possibly be easier than the alternative suggestion. However, that removes the fun of roleplaying your role, or things like spidertom, lolcatsGuardman, or any of the other delightful and memorable moments to that effect that we've come to appreciate over the years of playing together as a community.
I don't really see this conversation going towards implementation of a new rule surrounding these circumstances, as these are all things that the playerbase has been accountable for over the years.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
As I said to osie, I don't believe policy lynching is anywhere even close to being akin to slurring or cryptoclaims or what have you. If you're not enjoying someone's presence in a game, you do something about it - either by complaining to the host, or by lynching the player. That said, I think complaining to the host should probably be the reasonable first step in that chain of events, which I believe osie is pushing to become an official rule, here.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I would like to chime in with regards to the whole D_V thing, having thought about it for a while.
D_V absolutely deserves to be banned for his actions. He should have been banned long ago, and on a sane site, he would have. His actions were utterly unsportsmanlike.
However, D_V is also correct in pointing out that he was allowed to get away with way too much.
The fact of the matter is that the state of moderation on this site is appalling. It's questionable what the mods actually do. I know I won't make any friends on the mod team saying this, but I respect you enough to be honest about it. When I first came here, I gave up trying to report inflammatory posts. What was the point? The mods made it very clear they weren't ever going to respond to them. They were just allowing them to run rampant. It was unbelievable to me. What is the point of not angrily trolling people? **** it, let's act like angry kids on Fortnite, it's not like the people whose job it is to police conduct seem to care. If they don't, why shouldn't I just tell people what I think of them?
In fact, I actually had a mod tell me, and I am not making a word of this up, that a problematic player was warned, but they didn't want to publicly announce it. This mod apparently thought the best way to promote a law-abiding community was making certain that the fact that a post was against the rules was keeping it a secret. Literally making certain that other people didn't know. Breathtaking.
For context, I used to play on MTGNews, which was the parent site of MTGSalvation before the schism (long story). On MTGNews, if you had to be replaced ever, even once, you were put onto a ban list. If you had to be removed from the game for bad behavior, which was almost entirely unheard of, even once, you were placed onto a ban list. The ban list was not binding, hosts could choose to ignore it at their own peril, but the fact was that this type of behavior was very infrequent because if you acted up, THE MODS DID SOMETHING.
That might seem draconian. Fair. You have to adapt your method of governance to suit the community, what worked in one place might stifle another. But the fact of the matter is the moderation here has been toothless, and this is what you get as a result. Be gentle with weeds, and your garden gets overrun.
So no, I don't believe it's necessarily fair that D_V gets banned, because yes, he might be one of the most flagrant cases, perhaps the most, but it's not like he's 100% responsible for the caustic environment here, and it's not on his watch that this occurred.
The objection I have is calling this "probation." No, it's not probation. D_V should be banned if he ever does this again, but that's not because he did it a bunch of times, and therefore if he does it once more, he's out. It should be because if ANYONE goes to that flagrant and gratuitous a level of personal attack, they should be banned, irrespective of how many times that person has done it. They should be banned on a first offense for this.
It's fine to say that we need to shape up, but that "time to shape up" shouldn't merely apply to him, because singling him out is ignoring the problem, which is not him, it's the forum at large. There needs to be a clear delineation. This was the old site, we're tightening things up now, this is the new era of moderation. And the mods need to follow through on actually enforcing the rules. People will continue to flame if there's no real punishment for flaming. People will continue to troll if there's no real punishment for trolling. People will continue to drop out of games if there's no real punishment for dropping out of games. This is basic.
You seem to be under some drastic misconceptions about the way Mafia and MTGS site rules operate. Let me clear this up for you (though shadow did an okay job of this on the last page).
There are three entities as far as rules are concerned within the Mafia subforum. In this way, we're a unique structure within MTGS.
1. Site Moderators+. Mods govern actions that are against site rules. Currently, shadow, Cythare, and I are the Mafia mods. We card posts that are reported or that we happen to spot that are in violation of MTGS's rules. I opt not to leave public warnings in posts, because WITHOUT FAIL, any time I did, I received multiple PMs from people whining about how one person got carded but another didn't, when the other post was not reported and I did not see it, or because the other post was not in violation of the site rules, and arguing with users about who does and doesn't deserve cards is not how I like to spend my time, and arguing with users about who does and doesn't receive cards is not their business. There is also a statue of limitations wherein if we miss a post that deserves a card after 2 weeks, we do not card it, as doing so in the past (in other parts of the site, as well) has looked like targeted Moderation and received cries of discrimination from the affected users. (Contrary top popular belief, we can not read every post on the site every day, and more often than we would like, things slip through the cracks. This is the downside of having a very human team of volunteers under whom the site is run.) I guess you misunderstood what I said when you PMed me about your reports (where if a rule was violated, I issued a card, otherwise, I declined the report), but hopefully my language here is less open for misinterpretation or ambiguity. The short version is that Mods are enforcers of site rules. We do not decide which players are and are not allowed to play Mafia. The Mafia Council does. On that note...
2. Mafia Councillors. Mafia Councillors dictate the specific rules of the subforum beyond the basic site rules. Because of the nature of Mafia, a little more leeway was requested with regards to flaming matters. There's a clear difference between calling an argument bad and calling the player making it bad. Mafia Councillors have the power to put players on probation, blacklist players, determine the Mafia Secretary/Secretaries, and implement programs (such as the Mafia League or when to run FTQs and the like), but will generally elicit feedback from the playerbase before making a decision of this nature. Mafia Councillors do not have site Moderator powers, unless that Councillor is explicitly also a site Moderator (as I was, before, and shadow is, presently.) Mafia Councillors can request that, if a player circumvents a probation or blacklist order, or is otherwise completely toxic to the playerbase, that they can be banned from Mafia, and, if that order is violated, a site suspension or ban will be issued, to be carried out by a senior staffer of MTGS Moderation. Again, MTGS staff, in this capacity, acts as an enforcer.
3. Mafia game hosts. Hosts have the ability to forcibly replace or modkill players they feel are violating the spirit of the game, or are explicitly breaking the rules set forth in their game's OP. This is in addition to whatever penalty MTGS Moderation decides to hand out per site rules, whether it be a blanket "Play nice and behave," in-thread, or carding a user, and is a completely separate decision from any site staff's intervention. Hosts and MTGS Mods can and will collaborate regarding particularly problematic users - i.e. if I see a player I've just given 2 warnings to toeing the line, I may bring it to the attention of the host so that they are aware of how that may affect their game, and they may choose to speak to the player privately, or post a warning of their own in-thread, i.e. "any further flaming will be met with modkills". Again, this is independent of MTGS staff actions.
So, to sum it up, no, nothing about the rules is "kept secret". When users sign up for MTGS, they agree to abide by the site rules. The players who are misbehaving in violation of site rules are receiving cards as they should, and are fully aware of how their actions are against the rules. Any further action regarding whether or not that player is eligible to participate in future Mafia games can and should be brought up to the Mafia Council by either the hosts of games where this player was a detriment to the enjoyability of the game overall, or by fellow players who were on the receiving end of such actions of their co-players, as that responsibility falls on them given the unorthodox nature of the way Mafia governs itself in our community.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
With regards to lurking, I agree that it's a prevalent problem in our meta, and I think a lot of that can be due to deadlines. I think that's another problem, though, because I know that I personally wouldn't be able to play Mafia with shorter deadlines, and I know that appeals to a lot of our older playerbase. Because of the relaxed deadlines, more people are able to participate. With such a small playerbase, I'm not sure we want to ostracize the people who can play here because of the not-so-stringent deadlines.
On that note, as far as lynching lurkers go, yes, GJ - I agree that this should be important to some degree - but when somebody is behaving in an overtly scummy manner to me, I would rather remove that player from the game before they can sow more dissension within the game. The lurkers can come later. The other thing is that lurker-hunting is a supremely easy tactic to pick up and utilize as scum to make it look like you're doing something without contributing meaningfully to the game. Nobody wants to read 30 posts of "not changing my vote because lurkers", and it's just lazy play, IMO. I think Amistaria III was a great example of this - we wiped out the scum, sans the lurker, and at the end of the game, I said, "Well, I don't feel like any of the active players are really scum, and they're not lynches I'd feel great about pursuing. So, let's lynch the lurker and win?" And then we won.
Edit: More chat with DV:
DV Today at 4:07 PM
A follow up question, how much would you classify yourself as someone that needs to win? Or wants to win. For example in magic playing for fun was always really hard for me in some senses. EDH always became semi competitive. I found play groups that thought the same way instead of trying to dull that desire.
Iso Today at 4:18 PM
When I play games, I think "having fun" and "winning" are about 50-50 for my goals. I've been trying to make having fun more of a priority, lately, but I've always had a competitive nature, so it's a difficult change. Actually, EDH has been a great foray for me into "playing for fun" more than "playing to win" once I realized that other people weren't having fun when I was playing decks like Slivers and Kaalia (partially because I realized I didn't have fun playing against decks like that). I took apart my oppressive decks and built decks that are more like Rube Goldberg machines that do wacky ***** to accomplish cool stuff.
I separate that from my mentality when I play Legacy, which, while I'm trying to have fun, is inherently a more competitive format
I think a lot of that came from my childhood where I could never beat Seppel at games because I was the younger of us and lacked the mental faculties to strategize as well as my older sibling, who had more experience than I in such things. Because I never won, a lot of what became important to me was winning and/or being clever while trying to win.
But, I've come to terms with that.
I'm simply trying to adjust my behavior, accordingly, now.
(That said, I still very much enjoy being clever while playing games, and winning.)
DV Today at 4:27 PM
Yeah, for sure. I moved to playing less "Competitive" games with friends.
A lot of co-op games and or team games like Battle Royals.
Iso Today at 4:31 PM nods
Of course, those are still competitive, but not at the expense of your playgroup.
If you all lose, you can be butthurt at invisible people on the internet
Rather than each other.
DV Today at 4:32 PM
We used to play moba's but a lot of those games lasted like 45 minutes. So, a lot more of time was invested and when you lost it sucked
Iso Today at 4:33 PM
right
DV Today at 4:35 PM
Perhaps mafia is something that inherently hard for me to separate need to win versus fun. I know a lot of my thoughts in the last on going game were "want to win" and "I'm not performing enough to win"-so I got more stress, and "Team mates are not performing enough to win".
I didn't used to think about the game this way.
So, I think that is a large part of it for me. I'm ******* getting too competitive.
Iso Today at 4:35 PM
Mafia's a huge investment mentally, emotionally, and energy-wise.
Our games are super long, so it feels that much worse when you lose.
It's hard when you don't feel like your teammates are carrying their weight, but remember there's nothing at stake.
If it were a $10,000 Mafia Championship I could understand the frustration, and it might even be justified at that point
But it's just a game that you knowingly invested your time and effort into.
You're not always going to win.
Yeah, it feels better when you do, but even if you don't, it's not necessarily a reflection on you of not being good enough to have won.
And at the worst, if you contribute to the game meaningfully and in a positive way, other people will have enjoyed themselves, more, and will want to play with you again in the future.
DV Today at 4:38 PM
Last part is the most important.
Iso Today at 4:39 PM
Yes, winning is fine to have as a goal in Mafia. But what you truly want is to foster a welcome and friendly environment that people want to come back to so that they can play more epic games with you. Right?
Don't lose sight of the goal.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
DV, are you okay with me posting my messages to you about my recommendations on how to handle this? It might elicit some helpful input from others.
Absolutely.
Edit: I should preface I think most of that is your story so I don't think I have any right to stop you either way.
DV Last Sunday at 3:49 PM
Hey I remember you had issues at one point with your own behavior. Can I ask what steps you took to solve it?
Iso Last Sunday at 3:50 PM
The first step, for me, was realizing that I wasn't enjoying Mafia.
I asked myself why. Was it the people I was playing with? The fact that I'd been doing it for so long that it was stale? Was it general burnout? Perhaps I had fallen too far into my Mafia persona to realize I was being a general jackass?
Once I identified the cause, I took a step back.
I looked through some of my old posts and, rather than looking to validate myself and what I had been doing, I looked at how I may have antagonized or otherwise been unwelcoming to people.
I made mental notes about the kinds of things that people seemed to react poorly to, which were usually the reactions that caused me to get angry in-game.
I took another step back.
Mafia is a game. It's just a game. There are other people involved, and those people have emotions that also affect the way they play the game, and how they receive my own play.
I needed to stop being so emotionally invested in the game.
It was draining me in all the worst ways. I was definitely burned out.
I kept playing because I felt like I had to - to keep games filling, to keep up a presence in the community, etc.
It was detrimentally affecting my play, as well, because I assumed anyone who was intentionally antagonizing me knowing what I was capable of was scum.
It also demotivated me from keeping up to date with the game, which then made people think I was scum.
It was a double-edged sword, and both ends were pointing at me.
I took one final step back.
I played a couple of games, and every time I was tempted to flame someone, be toxic, or just generally unpleasant, I paused myself, separated myself from my emotions and the situation, and walked away from my computer for a moment. When I came back, I was usually clear-headed enough to make my point without coming across as condescending, ********-ish, etc.
I would remind myself that it's just a game and that it's okay if other people are dumb because "I'm Iso, and I ****in' got this"
Even when coming under pressure in-game, which makes it infinitely more difficult to stay level-headed, I did my best to keep ad hom out of it. It's not about attacking the player making the argument - it's about illustrating why the argument is bad without saying "this is bad and you are bad and you should feel bad".
It's all about impulse control, adjusting your perspective, and remembering that it's not just a game, but a team game.
You have other people relying on your success to win, even if they're not necessarily carrying their own way sufficiently.
Taking a break from constantly being in a Mafia game for 7 years was also a big step towards being able to reprioritize the way I viewed and handled things in-game.
Yeah, that can maybe lead one to get rusty, but it'll also help you get out of your head and remove a lot of your own biases and predispositions about people and how they're playing the game that were probably affecting your play in ways you didn't realize.
It's okay to put the noose down every once in a while to regroup and recollect yourself.
I don't have the same passion for the game that I did when I was a 19-year old college kid who didn't have time to sleep (so I spent all the time I was awake on Mafia anyway), but with all of the above in mind, I was able to find a way to continue to enjoy the game. There's no need to pointlessly bait people into giving you hostile reactions or anything that might cause a case of the feel-bads.
Just try to be empathetic, when all else fails.
If you have any questions, let me know - but I hope this helps you.
DV Last Sunday at 4:04 PM
I feel like a lot of that describes me to a T.
I've probably scapegoated my behavior on other things too
Iso Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
Likely the case.
DV Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
Thank you
Iso Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
<3 Glad to help. Let me know how it goes for you.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Understood RE: awareness. I just noticed the trend and assumed it was deliberate that you weren't flaming past a certain point; sorry for the misunderstanding.
With regards to GJ, if there were posts that required carding, rest assured that they were. Can you link the after-game chat that you're referring to, here?
Edit: I do believe D_V does sincerely wish to address his behavior, and this is evidenced both by him speaking to me privately about this and seconding his own probation in here.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
My $0.02 as a former Councillor and long-time Mod of Mafia:
Looking through the offending posts in question, I agree with Rodemy's movement. D_V has a history of flaming people in Mafia games until he has 2 infractions, toeing the line until the infractions expire, and then doing it all over again once they have. This is toxic behavior, and, unfortunately, it has not changed in all the years I've been playing Mafia on MTGS with D_V. I don't have any personal qualms with him - we've had some good conversations OoG, even if we have a lot of starkly contrasting views, whether they be on the way our community is run, Mafia role creation, game balance, or what have you. That said, his repeated behavior is not conducive to a friendly gaming environment for a tight-knit community such as ours, and I do third putting D_V on probation.
As far as GJ goes, I looked at his part in the exchange, as well, and while there was some action worthy of infraction, GJ is certainly not a repeat offender/problem user for us, and I can remember maybe only one or two other times where he blew up in a way that was disproportionate to the stimulus, in question. His play attitude, lately, has been of the "IDGAF" variety, but I don't think it generally comes into games in a problematic way, except in rare instances such as this one. Bearing all of this in mind, I don't think GJ needs to be put on probation.
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
2011: Best Mafia Performance (Individual) - Best Newcomer
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
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Can confirm that this is likely feasible on the technical end of things.
@Bur: Please update the hosting thread probation list with this.
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@Eco: I'm not opposed to Mods giving a monthly report on reports/cards activity, but I might have to be prompted and reminded to do this as if it's only a monthly thing, I'm likely to forget that it needs to be done.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
I'm not excusing the behavior of people who have been unwelcome to our visiting players from other sites; rather, I'm just saying I completely understand the frustration on both ends, and why perhaps players like DBS and LW feel unwelcome in our games. It's a failure to adapt on both ends because we have a really hardcore Mafia culture.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
No, that sounds like bullying and the only encouragement that people should be receiving to replace out is if the player clearly doesn't have time for the game, or if the mental/emotional health of the player is being compromised by the game. That is an entirely different matter from "I'm going to try to policy lynch you because I don't like how you play the game".
Wrath_of_DoG attempted to lynch me in every single game we played in together past a certain point, simply because he didn't like me as a Mafia player. I didn't complain a single time. I tried to reason with him and talk to him about it, but he shut down all forms of communication regarding the matter. Instead of stooping to his level or being rude about it, I simply outplayed him and got him counter-lynched or Vigged in response to his antagonism.
There are alternative solutions.
Edit: Such as requesting the host and/or Council look into the player in question. Not just suggesting we let that go untouched.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
/barn
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@DV: I think I made the exact same argument to osie - that if people are lynching him for reasons that aren't related to his alignment, he is obviously doing something they did not like and that he should probably not do that in the future, as if a group of people deem you disruptive or unenjoyable enough to remove you from their immediate area at the risk of losing several months' worth of emotional or mental investment, well...that says a lot.
I don't think that osie's rule suggestion is an easy one to enforce, as players can just easily say, "Well, he was obfuscating the game, so I thought he was scum," rather than "I lynched him because he was being disruptive to the game's health/integrity." While yes, it makes sense to say to the host, "Hey, I asked Dudeguy to stop duding up the thread, but he won't stop," at some point, you have to examine yourself and ask, "Am I the problem?" If you're threatening to take your ball and go home because people won't let you play the way you want at the detriment of their enjoyment of the game, do you really want to be that guy rather than to take a moment of introspection?
I don't necessarily think "no posting restrictions" is easy to enforce, either, but may possibly be easier than the alternative suggestion. However, that removes the fun of roleplaying your role, or things like spidertom, lolcatsGuardman, or any of the other delightful and memorable moments to that effect that we've come to appreciate over the years of playing together as a community.
I don't really see this conversation going towards implementation of a new rule surrounding these circumstances, as these are all things that the playerbase has been accountable for over the years.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
You seem to be under some drastic misconceptions about the way Mafia and MTGS site rules operate. Let me clear this up for you (though shadow did an okay job of this on the last page).
There are three entities as far as rules are concerned within the Mafia subforum. In this way, we're a unique structure within MTGS.
1. Site Moderators+. Mods govern actions that are against site rules. Currently, shadow, Cythare, and I are the Mafia mods. We card posts that are reported or that we happen to spot that are in violation of MTGS's rules. I opt not to leave public warnings in posts, because WITHOUT FAIL, any time I did, I received multiple PMs from people whining about how one person got carded but another didn't, when the other post was not reported and I did not see it, or because the other post was not in violation of the site rules, and arguing with users about who does and doesn't deserve cards is not how I like to spend my time, and arguing with users about who does and doesn't receive cards is not their business. There is also a statue of limitations wherein if we miss a post that deserves a card after 2 weeks, we do not card it, as doing so in the past (in other parts of the site, as well) has looked like targeted Moderation and received cries of discrimination from the affected users. (Contrary top popular belief, we can not read every post on the site every day, and more often than we would like, things slip through the cracks. This is the downside of having a very human team of volunteers under whom the site is run.) I guess you misunderstood what I said when you PMed me about your reports (where if a rule was violated, I issued a card, otherwise, I declined the report), but hopefully my language here is less open for misinterpretation or ambiguity. The short version is that Mods are enforcers of site rules. We do not decide which players are and are not allowed to play Mafia. The Mafia Council does. On that note...
2. Mafia Councillors. Mafia Councillors dictate the specific rules of the subforum beyond the basic site rules. Because of the nature of Mafia, a little more leeway was requested with regards to flaming matters. There's a clear difference between calling an argument bad and calling the player making it bad. Mafia Councillors have the power to put players on probation, blacklist players, determine the Mafia Secretary/Secretaries, and implement programs (such as the Mafia League or when to run FTQs and the like), but will generally elicit feedback from the playerbase before making a decision of this nature. Mafia Councillors do not have site Moderator powers, unless that Councillor is explicitly also a site Moderator (as I was, before, and shadow is, presently.) Mafia Councillors can request that, if a player circumvents a probation or blacklist order, or is otherwise completely toxic to the playerbase, that they can be banned from Mafia, and, if that order is violated, a site suspension or ban will be issued, to be carried out by a senior staffer of MTGS Moderation. Again, MTGS staff, in this capacity, acts as an enforcer.
3. Mafia game hosts. Hosts have the ability to forcibly replace or modkill players they feel are violating the spirit of the game, or are explicitly breaking the rules set forth in their game's OP. This is in addition to whatever penalty MTGS Moderation decides to hand out per site rules, whether it be a blanket "Play nice and behave," in-thread, or carding a user, and is a completely separate decision from any site staff's intervention. Hosts and MTGS Mods can and will collaborate regarding particularly problematic users - i.e. if I see a player I've just given 2 warnings to toeing the line, I may bring it to the attention of the host so that they are aware of how that may affect their game, and they may choose to speak to the player privately, or post a warning of their own in-thread, i.e. "any further flaming will be met with modkills". Again, this is independent of MTGS staff actions.
So, to sum it up, no, nothing about the rules is "kept secret". When users sign up for MTGS, they agree to abide by the site rules. The players who are misbehaving in violation of site rules are receiving cards as they should, and are fully aware of how their actions are against the rules. Any further action regarding whether or not that player is eligible to participate in future Mafia games can and should be brought up to the Mafia Council by either the hosts of games where this player was a detriment to the enjoyability of the game overall, or by fellow players who were on the receiving end of such actions of their co-players, as that responsibility falls on them given the unorthodox nature of the way Mafia governs itself in our community.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
On that note, as far as lynching lurkers go, yes, GJ - I agree that this should be important to some degree - but when somebody is behaving in an overtly scummy manner to me, I would rather remove that player from the game before they can sow more dissension within the game. The lurkers can come later. The other thing is that lurker-hunting is a supremely easy tactic to pick up and utilize as scum to make it look like you're doing something without contributing meaningfully to the game. Nobody wants to read 30 posts of "not changing my vote because lurkers", and it's just lazy play, IMO. I think Amistaria III was a great example of this - we wiped out the scum, sans the lurker, and at the end of the game, I said, "Well, I don't feel like any of the active players are really scum, and they're not lynches I'd feel great about pursuing. So, let's lynch the lurker and win?" And then we won.
Edit: More chat with DV:
DV Today at 4:07 PM
A follow up question, how much would you classify yourself as someone that needs to win? Or wants to win. For example in magic playing for fun was always really hard for me in some senses. EDH always became semi competitive. I found play groups that thought the same way instead of trying to dull that desire.
Iso Today at 4:18 PM
When I play games, I think "having fun" and "winning" are about 50-50 for my goals. I've been trying to make having fun more of a priority, lately, but I've always had a competitive nature, so it's a difficult change. Actually, EDH has been a great foray for me into "playing for fun" more than "playing to win" once I realized that other people weren't having fun when I was playing decks like Slivers and Kaalia (partially because I realized I didn't have fun playing against decks like that). I took apart my oppressive decks and built decks that are more like Rube Goldberg machines that do wacky ***** to accomplish cool stuff.
I separate that from my mentality when I play Legacy, which, while I'm trying to have fun, is inherently a more competitive format
I think a lot of that came from my childhood where I could never beat Seppel at games because I was the younger of us and lacked the mental faculties to strategize as well as my older sibling, who had more experience than I in such things. Because I never won, a lot of what became important to me was winning and/or being clever while trying to win.
But, I've come to terms with that.
I'm simply trying to adjust my behavior, accordingly, now.
(That said, I still very much enjoy being clever while playing games, and winning.)
DV Today at 4:27 PM
Yeah, for sure. I moved to playing less "Competitive" games with friends.
A lot of co-op games and or team games like Battle Royals.
Iso Today at 4:31 PM
nods
Of course, those are still competitive, but not at the expense of your playgroup.
If you all lose, you can be butthurt at invisible people on the internet
Rather than each other.
DV Today at 4:32 PM
We used to play moba's but a lot of those games lasted like 45 minutes. So, a lot more of time was invested and when you lost it sucked
Iso Today at 4:33 PM
right
DV Today at 4:35 PM
Perhaps mafia is something that inherently hard for me to separate need to win versus fun. I know a lot of my thoughts in the last on going game were "want to win" and "I'm not performing enough to win"-so I got more stress, and "Team mates are not performing enough to win".
I didn't used to think about the game this way.
So, I think that is a large part of it for me. I'm ******* getting too competitive.
Iso Today at 4:35 PM
Mafia's a huge investment mentally, emotionally, and energy-wise.
Our games are super long, so it feels that much worse when you lose.
It's hard when you don't feel like your teammates are carrying their weight, but remember there's nothing at stake.
If it were a $10,000 Mafia Championship I could understand the frustration, and it might even be justified at that point
But it's just a game that you knowingly invested your time and effort into.
You're not always going to win.
Yeah, it feels better when you do, but even if you don't, it's not necessarily a reflection on you of not being good enough to have won.
And at the worst, if you contribute to the game meaningfully and in a positive way, other people will have enjoyed themselves, more, and will want to play with you again in the future.
DV Today at 4:38 PM
Last part is the most important.
Iso Today at 4:39 PM
Yes, winning is fine to have as a goal in Mafia. But what you truly want is to foster a welcome and friendly environment that people want to come back to so that they can play more epic games with you. Right?
Don't lose sight of the goal.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
DV Last Sunday at 3:49 PM
Hey I remember you had issues at one point with your own behavior. Can I ask what steps you took to solve it?
Iso Last Sunday at 3:50 PM
The first step, for me, was realizing that I wasn't enjoying Mafia.
I asked myself why. Was it the people I was playing with? The fact that I'd been doing it for so long that it was stale? Was it general burnout? Perhaps I had fallen too far into my Mafia persona to realize I was being a general jackass?
Once I identified the cause, I took a step back.
I looked through some of my old posts and, rather than looking to validate myself and what I had been doing, I looked at how I may have antagonized or otherwise been unwelcoming to people.
I made mental notes about the kinds of things that people seemed to react poorly to, which were usually the reactions that caused me to get angry in-game.
I took another step back.
Mafia is a game. It's just a game. There are other people involved, and those people have emotions that also affect the way they play the game, and how they receive my own play.
I needed to stop being so emotionally invested in the game.
It was draining me in all the worst ways. I was definitely burned out.
I kept playing because I felt like I had to - to keep games filling, to keep up a presence in the community, etc.
It was detrimentally affecting my play, as well, because I assumed anyone who was intentionally antagonizing me knowing what I was capable of was scum.
It also demotivated me from keeping up to date with the game, which then made people think I was scum.
It was a double-edged sword, and both ends were pointing at me.
I took one final step back.
I played a couple of games, and every time I was tempted to flame someone, be toxic, or just generally unpleasant, I paused myself, separated myself from my emotions and the situation, and walked away from my computer for a moment. When I came back, I was usually clear-headed enough to make my point without coming across as condescending, ********-ish, etc.
I would remind myself that it's just a game and that it's okay if other people are dumb because "I'm Iso, and I ****in' got this"
Even when coming under pressure in-game, which makes it infinitely more difficult to stay level-headed, I did my best to keep ad hom out of it. It's not about attacking the player making the argument - it's about illustrating why the argument is bad without saying "this is bad and you are bad and you should feel bad".
It's all about impulse control, adjusting your perspective, and remembering that it's not just a game, but a team game.
You have other people relying on your success to win, even if they're not necessarily carrying their own way sufficiently.
Taking a break from constantly being in a Mafia game for 7 years was also a big step towards being able to reprioritize the way I viewed and handled things in-game.
Yeah, that can maybe lead one to get rusty, but it'll also help you get out of your head and remove a lot of your own biases and predispositions about people and how they're playing the game that were probably affecting your play in ways you didn't realize.
It's okay to put the noose down every once in a while to regroup and recollect yourself.
I don't have the same passion for the game that I did when I was a 19-year old college kid who didn't have time to sleep (so I spent all the time I was awake on Mafia anyway), but with all of the above in mind, I was able to find a way to continue to enjoy the game. There's no need to pointlessly bait people into giving you hostile reactions or anything that might cause a case of the feel-bads.
Just try to be empathetic, when all else fails.
If you have any questions, let me know - but I hope this helps you.
DV Last Sunday at 4:04 PM
I feel like a lot of that describes me to a T.
I've probably scapegoated my behavior on other things too
Iso Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
Likely the case.
DV Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
Thank you
Iso Last Sunday at 4:05 PM
<3 Glad to help. Let me know how it goes for you.
Iso Last Monday at 4:59 PM
https://nordiclarp.org/2015/03/02/bleed-the-spillover-between-player-and-character/ This might help you sort out your feelings on the matter a bit.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
With regards to GJ, if there were posts that required carding, rest assured that they were. Can you link the after-game chat that you're referring to, here?
Edit: I do believe D_V does sincerely wish to address his behavior, and this is evidenced both by him speaking to me privately about this and seconding his own probation in here.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Looking through the offending posts in question, I agree with Rodemy's movement. D_V has a history of flaming people in Mafia games until he has 2 infractions, toeing the line until the infractions expire, and then doing it all over again once they have. This is toxic behavior, and, unfortunately, it has not changed in all the years I've been playing Mafia on MTGS with D_V. I don't have any personal qualms with him - we've had some good conversations OoG, even if we have a lot of starkly contrasting views, whether they be on the way our community is run, Mafia role creation, game balance, or what have you. That said, his repeated behavior is not conducive to a friendly gaming environment for a tight-knit community such as ours, and I do third putting D_V on probation.
As far as GJ goes, I looked at his part in the exchange, as well, and while there was some action worthy of infraction, GJ is certainly not a repeat offender/problem user for us, and I can remember maybe only one or two other times where he blew up in a way that was disproportionate to the stimulus, in question. His play attitude, lately, has been of the "IDGAF" variety, but I don't think it generally comes into games in a problematic way, except in rare instances such as this one. Bearing all of this in mind, I don't think GJ needs to be put on probation.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Oh, you mean the guy Az, Sir Chris, and I murdered that one time?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Who?
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player
Old habits die hard.
Welcome back! I'm sure I'm not the only one that misses playing with you.
{мы, тьма}
2012: Best (False?) Role Claim - Worst Town Performance (Group) - Best Mafia Performance (Group) - Best SK Performance - Best Overall Player
2013: Best Non-SK Neutral Performance
2014: Best Town Performance (Individual) - Best Town Performance (Group) - Most Interesting Role - Best Game - Best Overall Player
2015: Worst Mafia Performance (Group) - Best Read
2016: Best Town Performance (Group) - Best Town Player - Best Overall Player