My plan for those decks running the life gain dorks is generally two for one them with electrolyze, and steal their bigger dude with Threads of Disloyalty.
I played against a Martyr-life deck a few times, he even got the combo off twice in one game. But, even if they're sitting on 70 some odd life, it ain't over. Save paths for Serra Ascendent, maximize your value with Electrolyze, and keep their board clear as much as possible. Hold up counters for trouble cards like Honor of the Pure, Ranger of Eos, and Proclamation of Rebirth; let their durdle creatures through. They get into topdeck mode pretty quickly, and Ranger is usually their way out. And, even at 70 life, I brought him down to 0 with just a Geist and Clique swinging every turn once I stabilized.
I remember Ajani Vengeant doing work that game as well; I think he swung with the Ascendant and I dropped Ajani the following turn and kept her tapped for the rest of the game.
Yea, I did not like the Merfolk matchup in the event I played in yesterday. Even with Thundermaw, it's almost impossible to race them unless you see just about every piece of removal you have, as I found out game 1. Game 2 sees 2 Master of Waves, Thassa, and Kira, among other goodies. I managed to kill everything but was left in topdeck mode, and when he drew Silvergill -> Lord, 2 life and a Mana Leak was not enough to get there.
Suddenly, Pyroclasm is not such an attractive board wipe. Luckily, I managed to go 3-1 that night, and took 3rd, because Merfolk guy was tied with me. Saw and beat Melira Pod and Mono-U Delver 2-0 each. Round 2 was a bye.
I am curious, what makes fringe decks tough versus this deck?
Maybe I just haven't played against them enough and I lack the necessary skill, but it seems to me that UWR thrives against fair decks. It runs super efficient removal, super efficient beaters, and strives to slowly outvalue the opponent. A lot of fringe decks have funky combos. Take the Amulet of Vigor deck for example, if they get their combo off Turn 2 and they're on the play, you're staring down a Turn 2 Primeval Titan and it's GG unless you have path. Even then, you're 2 lands behind.
Idk, slowing them down via Bolt/Helix/Remand every turn while putting on Geist pressure is how I play the deck, and if they're going to vomit their hand onto the field or generate a ton of mana quickly and drop a huge threat, then you can't really do that.
That seems pretty accurate. Just watch out if jund has double B on the table, a liliana might be coming down next turn, dont play geist unless you have a bolt or an electrolyze to get liliana.
Regarding match ups, i dont think there are any real BAD ones. I suppose jund is the one i ant to faceless, since its really op draw dependant, mmm maybe the mirror too, its really a "who can get a geist online first" game.
Boggles would be the worst, if that deck even exists anymore.
I agree with Rhinne, UWR doesn't get blown out by many decks, but I would go so far as to say that depending on how you've tweaked your own list, some matchups might be harder than others. Right now, the way I have mine with 2 Elspeth and 2 Thundermaw main means I'm going to suffer against combo (and maybe some hyper aggro) lists, but I'm going to walk all over midrangey decks like Jund and Junk. Depending on what you expect to see in your meta, you should adjust your mainboard as well as sideboard. I'm expecting to see mostly midrange on Wednesday, so that's my reasoning for the above, but if I was expecting to see tons of combo, Elspeth wouldn't even make it into my sideboard.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
Sorry, I was talking more about the new leonin than splicer, but splicer just doesn't have the same clock would be my main problem...
Oh gotcha. Yea, the clock isn't the same, but if you put splicer in the proper shell the clock would be fine. He really doesn't fit in this deck.
The cat dude has 4 toughness though, and that's magical in Modern. No hexproof is definitely a problem, but he dodges bolt and bolt-esque spells, which means your opponent is going to waste a Path/Abrupt Decay or 2-for-1 themselves to kill it. To be honest I don't think he fits in this shell either; like Geist and Splicer, he needs to be built around. Snapcaster and Goyf really stand alone in the "I can put this card in any deck that runs its colors" category.
As for the geist vs splicer debate, I like geist. Splicer takes a little more work to make as consitently powerful as geist and that swingness tends me to just want geist.
No...just no...no hexproof means he's gone...it would only work in a control variant, not a midrange variety...
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is so not relevant in this debate. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
I am testing 2 remand, 1 spell snare, one sphinx's revelation and 3 helix instead of 3 rmd and 4 helix. I'll report about it
Brimaz is nice but, he has no flash and the tokens are very weak without no push like honor of the pure etc. They also do not fly. I would still prefer Clique.
I am relatively new to this thread but did you consider Runechanter's Pike for making clique and snapcaster a monster?
Runechanter's came up today when my friend and I were discussing weird tech for UWR. We came to the conclusion that it was nuts mid to late game but it's absolute crap early. If anything, this deck needs help being aggressive early and runechanter's will not get you there.
As far as Brimaz goes, I wasn't thinking it'd be a replacement for Clique. It would replace Geist. It's not as bursty as Geist in damage, but it does end up swinging for 4 with vigilance. And the token might even stay around. And what's more annoying than dealing with tokens without board wipes (which hardly any deck in Modern mainboards)? I do agree that it would probably fit better in a token shell.
I love spell snare. I dont think you should play it over remand but 2-3 catches a lot of people off guard
Edit: forget it, I thought we were talking about Spell Pierce lol.
I settled on dropping Resto altogether and going with 2 Thundermaw main, with 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Cryptic count went down to 2 as well. I'm still only sitting on 2 Cliques which I might bump up to 3 somehow. The deck feels more stable against midrange, with reliable, difficult to deal with cards like Elspeth and Geist and aggressive burst with Thundermaws. The matchup against aggro probably dropped off considerably, and I will have to prepare my board for that I think.
and there's when eiganjo castle comes to be cool. i will never take it out from my shell as long as i run clique and geist.
Yestaerday i try to take out 2x Ajani for a 2x restoration angel. i am not sold AT ALL on her since against Jund it died badly both times i played it. I prefer Ajani so he will come back.
I'd like to play Leak too because it's so cool against Lily and Souls, plus helps a lot against that t3 Karn or Coil, but i don't wanna take snare out...
I'm gonna get to do some testing today, and I'm running a list very close to Hrvatska's list from Prague. Got 2x Resto 2x Clique instead of 1x, 3x, and Thundermaw finally makes an appearance as well, first time for me. Also I think I'm 4x Remand 3x Helix instead of the other way around. I'll see how I like it.
Anyone see that card Brimaz from Born of the Gods? He's got that magical 4 toughness and 3 cmc, and he brings in a buddy when attacking or blocking. Might be worth testing?
What do people think about lightning angel in this deck? Has anyone tried her?
Advantages: 4 toughness, and she holds off weenies while being a threat in the air. Great against delver and vendilion clique. Also great for nostalgia!
I think the general consensus is that she's very underwhelming. She got some exposure in a GP(?) list some number of months ago but I don't think she made that big of a splash. Resto is easier on the colors and comes in as a surprise, saving a dude or getting extra value from Snappy. The Flash on her is also nice as you can keep mana open for counters or whatever.
To be fair those games I played were all game 1's, no boarding. And while I didn't run any EE's I did have 2 Supreme Verdicts main just to see how they would fit.
Maybe just the preboard matchup is bad or something, idk lol.
Yeah. That's what I was thinking. I'm going to try running 0 GY hate except 2x Surgical Extractions.
I run 3 Engineered Explosives in the side. That really helps against Goyf and Bob as well. I have no issues using Bolt/Helix to hit DRS.
I played a few games against Junk last week and just got extremely fed up with my deck. Maybe it's a little off balance after I made some tweaks, but it's still running all the core pieces and it felt absolutely hopeless. Game after game he's drawing threat after threat and when we're both in topdeck mode (cause I've dealt with everything else) he rips Garruk Relentless. I draw a land, of course. The board just gets clogged up with Souls and Garruk tokens and he Paths my Restos and Colonnades.
There's been a lot of talk about how to deal with Jund lately and at least they don't F around with Souls and Garruk; tokens (backed up by the standard GB package) are a nightmare. It's gotten to the point where I have to ask myself, why run anything other than GBx in this meta?
Don't answer that question I know the deck can be beat I'm just frustrated.
The Sowing Salt seems a little out of place, though. It's possible I want Baneslayer Angel/Stormbreath Dragon instead, but I don't own one of either.
Seems solid. You aren't going to miss Cryptic? Also you might want to try dropping 1 Helix and pushing your Remands up to 4. Nothing like Time Walking someone and hitting your land drops.
I've been tossing the idea between Spell Snare and Sphinx Revelation as well. I can't decide which I like more.
I wouldn't run more than 2 Sphinx, but Spell Snare is so amazing in this meta right now.
No one cares what you recommend.
I'm trying Rev as a 1-of as a finisher. No matter how you build your deck, I think that the BGx matchup (or most midrange matchups for that matter, RUG, BUG, Bant, Dega, Naya) will end up being a grind. Rev puts you in a good position to come out on top of that grind. As a 1-of, it shouldn't clog your hand against aggro or control often, which I think are its weaknesses. Rather than play Thundermaw or Baneslayer which can die, BGx decks won't be countering Sphinx's Rev, so that's guaranteed CA. Finding the right number of lands is another problem to consider though.
I made the mistake of playing Rev as a 2-of a long time ago, but my deck wasn't designed to be a true control deck, and I couldn't survive without seeing one. I'm also thinking about going back to my 2/2 split of Ajani and Elspeth cause my meta has like no combo other than Pod(which is a grindy game anyway) and it worked really well for me in the past. Should be even better now that I own Cliques.
Why does this deck want red? We're playing a turn 3-4 deck in a turn 3.5 format.
The deck is always behind, the trick is to come back ahead by doing powerful things.
Lightning Bolt is 1cmc that kills 90% of T1-3 creatures in Modern right now. Not playing Lightning Bolt is silly. Against decks that don't have many creatures to stand in your way, you have 12 points of burn for 1cmc each.
I still run 3 Cryptic Commands. Is it possible that I want to drop all 3, max out on the Helix's, +1 Path to Exile, and +1 Remand?
Cryptic's way too good to toss out. Although you should try to max out on Remand, card is really good in this build. But you definitely don't need 4 path main, and even 4 helices might be too many. Cryptic just does everything you want and more.
Turn 1 Delver being a threat is pretty much an oxymoron now. No one cares about Delver anymore.
Well I'm still undecided on the Swords in the sideboard. They seem too good against Jund, but that usually means it's not too good, but too cute.
I've decided to test 1 Batterskull in the main, and probably 1 in the SB. What do I drop to make room for this BS, though? 1x Cryptic?
Do I sideout Batterskull against Kiki/Melira pod? Obviously comes out against Storm and Splinter, right?
Pod is a funny choice. I'd side BS out against Kiki simply because it acts more like a combo deck in the traditional sense than Melira does. For example, it's possible to go from 2 cmc to 5 and win with just a Pod and Strangleroot on the field. Kiki doesn't tend to play the grindy game like Melira often does. So in a matchup against Melira, as you kill their combo pieces, they go into grind mode. BS is more likely to help you there. Pretty much any other combo deck it comes out against.
I played against a Martyr-life deck a few times, he even got the combo off twice in one game. But, even if they're sitting on 70 some odd life, it ain't over. Save paths for Serra Ascendent, maximize your value with Electrolyze, and keep their board clear as much as possible. Hold up counters for trouble cards like Honor of the Pure, Ranger of Eos, and Proclamation of Rebirth; let their durdle creatures through. They get into topdeck mode pretty quickly, and Ranger is usually their way out. And, even at 70 life, I brought him down to 0 with just a Geist and Clique swinging every turn once I stabilized.
I remember Ajani Vengeant doing work that game as well; I think he swung with the Ascendant and I dropped Ajani the following turn and kept her tapped for the rest of the game.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Suddenly, Pyroclasm is not such an attractive board wipe. Luckily, I managed to go 3-1 that night, and took 3rd, because Merfolk guy was tied with me. Saw and beat Melira Pod and Mono-U Delver 2-0 each. Round 2 was a bye.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Maybe I just haven't played against them enough and I lack the necessary skill, but it seems to me that UWR thrives against fair decks. It runs super efficient removal, super efficient beaters, and strives to slowly outvalue the opponent. A lot of fringe decks have funky combos. Take the Amulet of Vigor deck for example, if they get their combo off Turn 2 and they're on the play, you're staring down a Turn 2 Primeval Titan and it's GG unless you have path. Even then, you're 2 lands behind.
Idk, slowing them down via Bolt/Helix/Remand every turn while putting on Geist pressure is how I play the deck, and if they're going to vomit their hand onto the field or generate a ton of mana quickly and drop a huge threat, then you can't really do that.
Maybe other people have other opinions.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I agree with Rhinne, UWR doesn't get blown out by many decks, but I would go so far as to say that depending on how you've tweaked your own list, some matchups might be harder than others. Right now, the way I have mine with 2 Elspeth and 2 Thundermaw main means I'm going to suffer against combo (and maybe some hyper aggro) lists, but I'm going to walk all over midrangey decks like Jund and Junk. Depending on what you expect to see in your meta, you should adjust your mainboard as well as sideboard. I'm expecting to see mostly midrange on Wednesday, so that's my reasoning for the above, but if I was expecting to see tons of combo, Elspeth wouldn't even make it into my sideboard.
Boggles is definitely an uphill battle, as are most fringe, unfair decks like Heartbeat of Spring/Early Harvest, Amulet of Vigor, Gifts Control, maybe monoblack discard? Although for mono B if you can stick Geist and dodge Lili, you're home free.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Oh gotcha. Yea, the clock isn't the same, but if you put splicer in the proper shell the clock would be fine. He really doesn't fit in this deck.
The cat dude has 4 toughness though, and that's magical in Modern. No hexproof is definitely a problem, but he dodges bolt and bolt-esque spells, which means your opponent is going to waste a Path/Abrupt Decay or 2-for-1 themselves to kill it. To be honest I don't think he fits in this shell either; like Geist and Splicer, he needs to be built around. Snapcaster and Goyf really stand alone in the "I can put this card in any deck that runs its colors" category.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Splicer could definitely work in a midrange variant, that's just silly talk. The bottom line here is that they both require the proper shell. Geist demands a shell with a lot of removal so you clear the way for him. He's an efficient beater so you can afford to run fewer creatures. Splicer shines when you get the full playset of Resto in there, with stuff like Finks and Snap and Swords, and then you turn it into a more creature based midrange deck that abuses ETB effects.
Hexproof is so not relevant in this debate. In fact, its fine that he doesn't have hexproof, he ETB with a buddy. That's what's known as a [air quotes]"2-for-1"[/air quotes].
All in favor of putting Splicer vs Geist behind us? Starting to get really redundant.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Runechanter's came up today when my friend and I were discussing weird tech for UWR. We came to the conclusion that it was nuts mid to late game but it's absolute crap early. If anything, this deck needs help being aggressive early and runechanter's will not get you there.
As far as Brimaz goes, I wasn't thinking it'd be a replacement for Clique. It would replace Geist. It's not as bursty as Geist in damage, but it does end up swinging for 4 with vigilance. And the token might even stay around. And what's more annoying than dealing with tokens without board wipes (which hardly any deck in Modern mainboards)? I do agree that it would probably fit better in a token shell.
Edit: forget it, I thought we were talking about Spell Pierce lol.
I settled on dropping Resto altogether and going with 2 Thundermaw main, with 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant. Cryptic count went down to 2 as well. I'm still only sitting on 2 Cliques which I might bump up to 3 somehow. The deck feels more stable against midrange, with reliable, difficult to deal with cards like Elspeth and Geist and aggressive burst with Thundermaws. The matchup against aggro probably dropped off considerably, and I will have to prepare my board for that I think.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I'm gonna get to do some testing today, and I'm running a list very close to Hrvatska's list from Prague. Got 2x Resto 2x Clique instead of 1x, 3x, and Thundermaw finally makes an appearance as well, first time for me. Also I think I'm 4x Remand 3x Helix instead of the other way around. I'll see how I like it.
Anyone see that card Brimaz from Born of the Gods? He's got that magical 4 toughness and 3 cmc, and he brings in a buddy when attacking or blocking. Might be worth testing?
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I think the general consensus is that she's very underwhelming. She got some exposure in a GP(?) list some number of months ago but I don't think she made that big of a splash. Resto is easier on the colors and comes in as a surprise, saving a dude or getting extra value from Snappy. The Flash on her is also nice as you can keep mana open for counters or whatever.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
To be fair those games I played were all game 1's, no boarding. And while I didn't run any EE's I did have 2 Supreme Verdicts main just to see how they would fit.
Maybe just the preboard matchup is bad or something, idk lol.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I played a few games against Junk last week and just got extremely fed up with my deck. Maybe it's a little off balance after I made some tweaks, but it's still running all the core pieces and it felt absolutely hopeless. Game after game he's drawing threat after threat and when we're both in topdeck mode (cause I've dealt with everything else) he rips Garruk Relentless. I draw a land, of course. The board just gets clogged up with Souls and Garruk tokens and he Paths my Restos and Colonnades.
There's been a lot of talk about how to deal with Jund lately and at least they don't F around with Souls and Garruk; tokens (backed up by the standard GB package) are a nightmare. It's gotten to the point where I have to ask myself, why run anything other than GBx in this meta?
Don't answer that question I know the deck can be beat I'm just frustrated.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Seems solid. You aren't going to miss Cryptic? Also you might want to try dropping 1 Helix and pushing your Remands up to 4. Nothing like Time Walking someone and hitting your land drops.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
I'm trying Rev as a 1-of as a finisher. No matter how you build your deck, I think that the BGx matchup (or most midrange matchups for that matter, RUG, BUG, Bant, Dega, Naya) will end up being a grind. Rev puts you in a good position to come out on top of that grind. As a 1-of, it shouldn't clog your hand against aggro or control often, which I think are its weaknesses. Rather than play Thundermaw or Baneslayer which can die, BGx decks won't be countering Sphinx's Rev, so that's guaranteed CA. Finding the right number of lands is another problem to consider though.
I made the mistake of playing Rev as a 2-of a long time ago, but my deck wasn't designed to be a true control deck, and I couldn't survive without seeing one. I'm also thinking about going back to my 2/2 split of Ajani and Elspeth cause my meta has like no combo other than Pod(which is a grindy game anyway) and it worked really well for me in the past. Should be even better now that I own Cliques.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Cryptic's way too good to toss out. Although you should try to max out on Remand, card is really good in this build. But you definitely don't need 4 path main, and even 4 helices might be too many. Cryptic just does everything you want and more.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
Pod is a funny choice. I'd side BS out against Kiki simply because it acts more like a combo deck in the traditional sense than Melira does. For example, it's possible to go from 2 cmc to 5 and win with just a Pod and Strangleroot on the field. Kiki doesn't tend to play the grindy game like Melira often does. So in a matchup against Melira, as you kill their combo pieces, they go into grind mode. BS is more likely to help you there. Pretty much any other combo deck it comes out against.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG