I've been thinking long and hard about vengevine.
Has anyone really made great use of him?
I find it's just too rare I am casting 2 creatures a turn when he's in the graveyard to make up for the times that he's not really what I want to be doing in most of my green decks (4/3 haste)
... Nor is it really easy to build a deck that abuses him.
Has anyone else found this? or has the card performed very well for you?
Fwiw, I dont support green agro that much.
Our aggresive decks are very happy with a hard hitting hasty beater like this. He rarely recurs, but when he does it tends to be pretty lethal. You don't need to support super fast aggro for him to be good, but you do need aggressive midrange decks at the very least.
I plan to up my white enchantment/artifact hate a bit. Which one is better?
We run both at 450 and while I really like Sundering Growth, I think Revoke Existence is the better card. But Sundering Growth is a hybrid which makes comparing a lot harder. It is easy to underestimate the effect this has on the number of decks that can play a hybrid. We have been getting free wolves and beasts with sundering Growth on a regular bases when it is played.
The exiling clause is relevant a surprising number of times in cube these days.
Relic Warder would be my cut. He has no first strike and is not a real aggro creature. I would prefer to run Disenchant in my deck if I wanted to get rid of artifacts.
Precinct Captain has been quite good here. His soldiers have won games here. He also is a Human which is a bonus because we run Champion of the Parish.
Imposing Sovereign is still in testing fase here, but it has performed pretty good here.
Cloistered Youth is a 3/3 for 1W which are very good stats.
I think you could get away with running both, since the black 4 drops are kind of shallow depending on what you want to do, but I think I like Reaver more now because it's more "exciting", i.e. it does cool stuff in combat instead of being a hill giant with a phyrexian arena attached. Not that a hill giant with a phyrexian arena attached isn't awesome, but making 2/2s and making them discard is pretty cool.
If you support Zombies Muse can be a Hill Giant with a Devination or a Ancestral attached. Which seems awesome enough;)
I want to up the count of my removal spells and I was looking at the above three. Really it's to help out black control builds. Which would you guys go with? Or should I really be looking at BSZ instead?
Snuff Out is quite strong. Being free is incredible. It regularly steals matches at key moments which a normal removal spell would not be able to have done.
That's what I was worried about. Does anyone agree or disagree?
I also think Profane Command is too much win not to play.
Depending on which Black archetypes you want to support more you could include Dauthi Horror. I would consider cutting Massacre Wurm or Consuming Vapors for it. Profane Command wins more games then these cards and they are unplayable in decks that like Dauthi Horror.
Complicate has always been good while we ran it when our cube was around 480-550. It was cycled surprisingly often. It doesn't feel clunky at in practice.
Exclude is not bad, but I prefer my counters to be unconditional. I'd run most Power Sink variants before Exclude.
Champion has been very good since we tried him out. Getting enough humans is easier then it looks, though it will depend on the rest of your list and on the way you draft.
Mother on the other hand is one of the best one drops of the cube. If not the best. It just dominates board positions, something which should not be possible for a mere one drop.
I don't want to include both, as I think they'll be too many 5 drop. I know how Thragtusk is good, but Vorapede is just such a cool giant insect with nice ability strapped on it.
I like Vorapede better I think, but it is very close.
That being said I still think both is the correct answer. Looking at your cube i would cut Master of the Wild Hunt for it if you are fine in raising the curve a little. We are talking about green after all, so ramping up to five is not as hard as in other colours. Either that or cut Genesis. Both Thragtusk and Vorapede have a bigger impact then Genesis which was too slow for us. They both come back without having to jump to through loops like you have to do with Genesis.
Pelakka Wurm is a lot better then it looks. It passes the Terminate test with flair and has a very decent body. Kamahl needs more work to shine. He might be ok in green ramp, but is a lot worse in other decks (reanimate, Natural Order, Sneak Attack, Eureka). He also is too vulnerable for a six drop with no CIB effect.
Another option is to run Terrastodon which we run over Pelakka Wurm. It has been working very well here, especially as a cheat target. Primeval Titan is a more recent addition to our cube, but has been impressive. It is a little less good when cheated in play but is a lot more value if your deck just casts it. I would rank it over the Elephant and the Wurm.
Our aggresive decks are very happy with a hard hitting hasty beater like this. He rarely recurs, but when he does it tends to be pretty lethal. You don't need to support super fast aggro for him to be good, but you do need aggressive midrange decks at the very least.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
We run both at 450 and while I really like Sundering Growth, I think Revoke Existence is the better card. But Sundering Growth is a hybrid which makes comparing a lot harder. It is easy to underestimate the effect this has on the number of decks that can play a hybrid. We have been getting free wolves and beasts with sundering Growth on a regular bases when it is played.
The exiling clause is relevant a surprising number of times in cube these days.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Relic Warder would be my cut. He has no first strike and is not a real aggro creature. I would prefer to run Disenchant in my deck if I wanted to get rid of artifacts.
Precinct Captain has been quite good here. His soldiers have won games here. He also is a Human which is a bonus because we run Champion of the Parish.
Imposing Sovereign is still in testing fase here, but it has performed pretty good here.
Cloistered Youth is a 3/3 for 1W which are very good stats.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
If you support Zombies Muse can be a Hill Giant with a Devination or a Ancestral attached. Which seems awesome enough;)
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Pelakka Wurm is great value. It looks a bit unassuming but those seven lives and that one card proved to be quite strong.
Rampaging Baloths was nice as well. It has more potential hitting power, but in practice it plays out not as strong as the Wurm.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Snuff Out is quite strong. Being free is incredible. It regularly steals matches at key moments which a normal removal spell would not be able to have done.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I also think Profane Command is too much win not to play.
Depending on which Black archetypes you want to support more you could include Dauthi Horror. I would consider cutting Massacre Wurm or Consuming Vapors for it. Profane Command wins more games then these cards and they are unplayable in decks that like Dauthi Horror.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Complicate has always been good while we ran it when our cube was around 480-550. It was cycled surprisingly often. It doesn't feel clunky at in practice.
Exclude is not bad, but I prefer my counters to be unconditional. I'd run most Power Sink variants before Exclude.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Faith's Fetters gains life and solves more problems. The lifegain has proven to be pretty vital.
We cut Journey at 500 I think. We still run Fetters at 435.
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Arcane Denial >Miscalculation>Condescend
All three are solid. I like Arcane the most as cheap hard counters are key, especially when the power level of the cube goes up.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Thran Dynamo has been very good here. It plays about the same as Worn Powerstone, so that should give you an idea if it would suit you.
Guardian Idol has been decent as well.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
This.
Champion has been very good since we tried him out. Getting enough humans is easier then it looks, though it will depend on the rest of your list and on the way you draft.
Mother on the other hand is one of the best one drops of the cube. If not the best. It just dominates board positions, something which should not be possible for a mere one drop.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
I like Vorapede better I think, but it is very close.
That being said I still think both is the correct answer. Looking at your cube i would cut Master of the Wild Hunt for it if you are fine in raising the curve a little. We are talking about green after all, so ramping up to five is not as hard as in other colours. Either that or cut Genesis. Both Thragtusk and Vorapede have a bigger impact then Genesis which was too slow for us. They both come back without having to jump to through loops like you have to do with Genesis.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
The BCS for Vise is better, but Scroll is more consistant and goes into more decks.
Everflowing Chalice has been working very well for us at 460.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear
Another option is to run Terrastodon which we run over Pelakka Wurm. It has been working very well here, especially as a cheat target. Primeval Titan is a more recent addition to our cube, but has been impressive. It is a little less good when cheated in play but is a lot more value if your deck just casts it. I would rank it over the Elephant and the Wurm.
I feel compelled to repeat everything I hear