I agree with the 24 lands thing. We just have to fine-tune the machine to run in a cooperative fashion. As far as adapting goes, I'm actually in favor of the Rabblemaster plan. He's a fine threat that seems to be putting up impressive results in lists.
Things to note here:
1.) The lack of life-gain in the list. One Scavenging Ooze, and one Collected Brutality in the Sideboard.
2.) Planeswalker count. 6 between main and side. (@FlyingDelver called it!)
3.) 3 Rabblemasters.
4.) 24 lands.
5.) No Blood Moon, but he instead plays 4 Fulminator Mage.
Not a fan of point #1. I have a hard time dropping below 3 Scavenging Ooze main and 2 Brutality boarded. being able to apply pressure and gain life at the same time is so important in certain match-ups. Kinda wary about point #2 , there's so many 3cmc cards in this list it's crazy. And (personally) love #4 and #5 with this build.
@FlyingDelver, could I ask you to share your list? (only if you have one and are comfortable with it, of course)
I feel like it'll give me, and possibly others, of what you think is right for Jund in the current meta. If we need to adapt, lets start discussing cards guys I'm open to new ideas.
The only reason why I'm leaning on the 23 lands now is because im on the rabblemaster build. I feel that the deck rewards itself more for operating on 3-4 lands because of the threat density, even though 5 lands is always optimal for ravine activation.
As @FlyingDelver said, it comes down to preference on where you want to be.
Agreed Jund hasn't felt so good in a long time. I just got on Goblin Rabblemaster (no Blood Moon tho) and it's great. It punishes decks for not having adequate removal and allows Jund to go wide, which it has always had an issue doing. It's improved lots of matchups for me.
I really think you're looking at this more on the perspective of old jund lists, which I had an absurd win record with against burn
You can't toss back a hand with Goyf, LOTV, CB and 2 land because there's no bolt or push, that's really asking to be punished.
I'm not a fan of thoughtseize, it's rarely worth it. I think thoughtseize is a correct move for Shadow players so that they don't die to palm or have 1 of 8 creatures path'd.
As I was saying, this is just me personally. All in all, it's advice one way or the other. So take what's being said with a grain of salt. The only card (for me) in the hand you mentioned that makes it keep-able, is the Collective Brutality. If it was any other card in your list, i'd be pretty hard-pressed to not throw it back. This is what has brought me success so far.
You have to mull aggressively against burn. Game one certainly is dreadful for us, but in post-sideboard games, a 5-card hand will easily beat their 7-card hand. Especially If you have Collective Brutality or a Liliana of the Veil to grind them out. But the true must-have is a turn-1 play. That's how they get under you.
EDIT: Also; contrary to what most people do, I actually keep my copies of Thoughtseize in after sideboarding to consistently achieve what I mentioned above. Although I only run two copies in my 75, I feel my win-rate is much higher when I have them in. I think it's worth it even if it means saving 1 point of damage. That's just me though.
Played three events so far and I've gone 3-0, 4-0, and 3-1 at the more competitive shops around my state. Here's my list for Regionals this weekend! Enjoy, guys.
For the sake of the argument, I'll explain my cases, but then we should all just get back to Jund stuff.
Firstly, the Painful truth's situation were extreme cases. Needed to flip a Huntmaster at two life after casing Inquisition, and on separate occasion needed to hold up a ravine to block and only had one turn to find a bolt ability (again, at two life).
Next, in short, yes. I wouldn't play draw spells in Jund. I'd just play the cards I would be trying to look for. It's a simple statement really, but I promise there's some merit to it. The reason why certain decks play draw spells is because they *need* to. Blue based decks don't have "destroy target enchantment" or "destroy target artifact" etc. so they have to expend resources on getting to the few cards they have that stop those from happening (mainly countermagic or cards in splashed colors). Jund, is not that way. Our strength lies in our ability to answer EVERYTHING without expending any resources. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, even Serum Visions would just cloud overall goal of how we present our threats and how we answer theirs. Granted, you will be able to answer them more consistently.
In short, it boils down to efficiency vs consistency, and our deck finds consistency in our ratio of killspells/threats. So I, personally, don't see any draw spells fitting that mold. You know?
I'm really digging this list with rabblemasters. Not a fan of the dreadbore, that'll turn into a third terminate. I'll probably sleeve this up and try it at FNM tonight
Also; @Chaos021, my buddy did exactly what you're thinking with cutting red and replacing it with blue. He piloted jund for about a year or so, but when Fatal Push was printed he switched to BUG. I can send you his list if you'd like!
Lastly, I don't believe night's whisper to be better than Painful Truths for a few reasons.
1. It's not modal, you can cast Painful Truths for 1, 2, or 3 if needed. (I've casted it for 1 before)
2. Most of our threats are on 2mana. So that's what we want to be doing instead of Night's Whispering in (arguably) every matchup.
3. I'm a firm believer in that Jund doesn't need to just "draw more cards". It just needs to have the right card at the right time. Drawing cards helps this by creating redundancy, but doesn't help when being versatile.
Agreed. I play tested with Goblin Rabblemaster in my group and he seems like the real deal. The match-up against combo decks had a general increase. My only complaint about it was that the amassed amount 3-CMC cards in the deck are quite conflicting. The general idea is to still play 4 Liliana of the Veil, 2 kolaghan's command, and sometimes Maelstrom Pulse. Something's gotta give for the Rabblemaster's slot, right? We can't just load up at 3 and expect to curve reliably.
Traditionally, he's not the "ideal" 3-drop in our deck, but I've been feeling like Jund needs a more reliable way aggro our opponents who are on more unfair strategies. The format is becoming more condensed in terms of deck construction, so the edge he gives may be what the deck needs.
Thoughts? Feelings?
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Here's lists from the MTGO standings yesterday, Jund is at the top as the first 5-0:
https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/competitive-modern-constructed-league-2017-11-08
Things to note here:
1.) The lack of life-gain in the list. One Scavenging Ooze, and one Collected Brutality in the Sideboard.
2.) Planeswalker count. 6 between main and side. (@FlyingDelver called it!)
3.) 3 Rabblemasters.
4.) 24 lands.
5.) No Blood Moon, but he instead plays 4 Fulminator Mage.
Not a fan of point #1. I have a hard time dropping below 3 Scavenging Ooze main and 2 Brutality boarded. being able to apply pressure and gain life at the same time is so important in certain match-ups. Kinda wary about point #2 , there's so many 3cmc cards in this list it's crazy. And (personally) love #4 and #5 with this build.
Thoughts? Feelings? Discuss!
I feel like it'll give me, and possibly others, of what you think is right for Jund in the current meta. If we need to adapt, lets start discussing cards guys I'm open to new ideas.
The only reason why I'm leaning on the 23 lands now is because im on the rabblemaster build. I feel that the deck rewards itself more for operating on 3-4 lands because of the threat density, even though 5 lands is always optimal for ravine activation.
As @FlyingDelver said, it comes down to preference on where you want to be.
As I was saying, this is just me personally. All in all, it's advice one way or the other. So take what's being said with a grain of salt. The only card (for me) in the hand you mentioned that makes it keep-able, is the Collective Brutality. If it was any other card in your list, i'd be pretty hard-pressed to not throw it back. This is what has brought me success so far.
EDIT: Also; contrary to what most people do, I actually keep my copies of Thoughtseize in after sideboarding to consistently achieve what I mentioned above. Although I only run two copies in my 75, I feel my win-rate is much higher when I have them in. I think it's worth it even if it means saving 1 point of damage. That's just me though.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/jund-11317/
If you have any questions about the list or anything I'll be happy to fire back with card choices n stuff.
Firstly, the Painful truth's situation were extreme cases. Needed to flip a Huntmaster at two life after casing Inquisition, and on separate occasion needed to hold up a ravine to block and only had one turn to find a bolt ability (again, at two life).
Next, in short, yes. I wouldn't play draw spells in Jund. I'd just play the cards I would be trying to look for. It's a simple statement really, but I promise there's some merit to it. The reason why certain decks play draw spells is because they *need* to. Blue based decks don't have "destroy target enchantment" or "destroy target artifact" etc. so they have to expend resources on getting to the few cards they have that stop those from happening (mainly countermagic or cards in splashed colors). Jund, is not that way. Our strength lies in our ability to answer EVERYTHING without expending any resources. Night's Whisper, Painful Truths, even Serum Visions would just cloud overall goal of how we present our threats and how we answer theirs. Granted, you will be able to answer them more consistently.
In short, it boils down to efficiency vs consistency, and our deck finds consistency in our ratio of killspells/threats. So I, personally, don't see any draw spells fitting that mold. You know?
That's just me, man lol
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17297&d=306948&f=MO
Also; @Chaos021, my buddy did exactly what you're thinking with cutting red and replacing it with blue. He piloted jund for about a year or so, but when Fatal Push was printed he switched to BUG. I can send you his list if you'd like!
Lastly, I don't believe night's whisper to be better than Painful Truths for a few reasons.
1. It's not modal, you can cast Painful Truths for 1, 2, or 3 if needed. (I've casted it for 1 before)
2. Most of our threats are on 2mana. So that's what we want to be doing instead of Night's Whispering in (arguably) every matchup.
3. I'm a firm believer in that Jund doesn't need to just "draw more cards". It just needs to have the right card at the right time. Drawing cards helps this by creating redundancy, but doesn't help when being versatile.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116688
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=116664
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=17278&d=306842&f=MO
Traditionally, he's not the "ideal" 3-drop in our deck, but I've been feeling like Jund needs a more reliable way aggro our opponents who are on more unfair strategies. The format is becoming more condensed in terms of deck construction, so the edge he gives may be what the deck needs.
Thoughts? Feelings?