I've been running 1x Damnation for a long time, even as Grixis Delver. Every time I try to outthink it, I end up in a situation where I wish I had it as a sweeper, and not a Pyroclasm, AotG, or other (namely a mix of out of control Goyfs or or other things, etc). Also SB EE and Izzet Staticaster.
Sorry for the double post didn't see this one. I absolutely loved damnation in grixis control and was even up to 2 copies at times but I don't think it's as useful for this list. The benefit to those smaller, conditional sweepers you mentioned is that it's usually going to be 1 sided in our favour so we still have threats on the field once it resolves. Goyfs and the like can be handled by the playset of push and the terminates in the list, not to mention our creatures aren't exactly small either.
The most useful matchup for damnation is against e tron but in that matchup we have to go under them and play the beatdown/disruption. If we start trying to play like a control deck and take a turn off to reset the board, we're going to give them too much time and their creatures/planeswalkers especially post board are just going to be so much better than what we're playing.
I don't think the card (hollow one) would be very strong in this list. A 1 mana 4/4 after faithless looting isn't as good as a 1 mana 4/5 with an ability or a 1 mana 5/5 after thought scour. Plus not running thought scours make tasigur and angler far worse and become unreliable to cast early on. It being an artifact is also relevant in the mirror due to k command. Thought scour is also a better topdeck in the late game as it actually cantrips whereas looting would be a dead draw.
Maybe in the side as an additional threat to go around grave hate but even then grave hate takes out flashback from looting making it much worse and I think we simply have better options (planeswalkers, removing or countering the grave hate, etc)
Valid target is different from "high impact" target are two different things though. Firing it off at whatever jank is in their graveyard is often not very useful in matches. Don't get me wrong; sometimes an early Surgical is a slam dunk against your opponent. You cast it, hit something nice in their grave and then find 1-2 more in their hand. Those few and far between moments feel pretty good, but half the time it sits in your hand, waiting for an opportune target.
It does do major work against Dredge and a handful of other decks, but against the entire field, it's better to just have consistency over a card that randomly hoses a deck sometimes and sometimes does nothing.
Agreed, I don't think main deck surgical is a good idea. The lists with pyro could potentially benefit from it as a much weaker cabal therapy. Even then, to act as cabal therapy you would have to have information of their hand via a discard spell and then they have to have multiples of that spell in hand. Otherwise if they only have the 1 copy in hand then the discard already did it's job and you're not getting any additional benefit other than the 1/1 token from pyro. Surgical is at its strongest when, as already mentioned, it's removing a key piece from the other deck. For example: a tron land (from gx tron), valakut, ad nauseam, living end, etc. You then cripple that deck and sometimes you'll just get a concession on the spot.
However against other decks it's nothing more than a mild inconvenience. If you're against jund for example and you go to exile their tarmogoyf from the graveyard and they reveal a hand containing Bob, removal spells and lili then you're gonna feel very silly since you just spent a card to deal with something that they haven't even drawn yet, which puts you at a disadvantage. Another example mentioned is against control and trying to exile path. Sure, got that out of the way but they still have verdict, blessed alliance, counter spells and planeswalkers. And that's if they even have targets for you in the first place, if there's a rip in play then surgical is actively dead weight since you can't even pay the 2 life to cast it to pump your shadow. Street wraith may not be the most impactful card in all matchups but because it cycles it's always guaranteed to do something and sometimes the body can be relevant.
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Sorry for the double post didn't see this one. I absolutely loved damnation in grixis control and was even up to 2 copies at times but I don't think it's as useful for this list. The benefit to those smaller, conditional sweepers you mentioned is that it's usually going to be 1 sided in our favour so we still have threats on the field once it resolves. Goyfs and the like can be handled by the playset of push and the terminates in the list, not to mention our creatures aren't exactly small either.
The most useful matchup for damnation is against e tron but in that matchup we have to go under them and play the beatdown/disruption. If we start trying to play like a control deck and take a turn off to reset the board, we're going to give them too much time and their creatures/planeswalkers especially post board are just going to be so much better than what we're playing.
Maybe in the side as an additional threat to go around grave hate but even then grave hate takes out flashback from looting making it much worse and I think we simply have better options (planeswalkers, removing or countering the grave hate, etc)
Agreed, I don't think main deck surgical is a good idea. The lists with pyro could potentially benefit from it as a much weaker cabal therapy. Even then, to act as cabal therapy you would have to have information of their hand via a discard spell and then they have to have multiples of that spell in hand. Otherwise if they only have the 1 copy in hand then the discard already did it's job and you're not getting any additional benefit other than the 1/1 token from pyro. Surgical is at its strongest when, as already mentioned, it's removing a key piece from the other deck. For example: a tron land (from gx tron), valakut, ad nauseam, living end, etc. You then cripple that deck and sometimes you'll just get a concession on the spot.
However against other decks it's nothing more than a mild inconvenience. If you're against jund for example and you go to exile their tarmogoyf from the graveyard and they reveal a hand containing Bob, removal spells and lili then you're gonna feel very silly since you just spent a card to deal with something that they haven't even drawn yet, which puts you at a disadvantage. Another example mentioned is against control and trying to exile path. Sure, got that out of the way but they still have verdict, blessed alliance, counter spells and planeswalkers. And that's if they even have targets for you in the first place, if there's a rip in play then surgical is actively dead weight since you can't even pay the 2 life to cast it to pump your shadow. Street wraith may not be the most impactful card in all matchups but because it cycles it's always guaranteed to do something and sometimes the body can be relevant.