[quote from="FuneralofGod »" url="/forums/the-game/modern/established-modern/midrange/772090-deaths-shadow-jund?comment=1975"]That's a very interesting list. How has V-Clique been performing? What about Jace? Are you often stuck on Mana and unable to make it to 4?
Clique and Jace are the flex slot. I play Jace because I enjoy playing jace. The deck doesn't need him at all. It should be in sb.
It's definitivly the worst card in the MD.
Clique has been impressive against combo deck and counter company (taking a coco). But I'm actually testing Nissa Stewart as a 1 of in this slot.
She's been fine (tested only 3 games with her). Being able to look your top deck with Bauble (to see if you can 0) or
Drawing the card you scry on top right now with street wraith is pretty fun. Her ultimate can win games too.
To finish, brainstorming with jace putting Tarmo/snap/shadow on top then using her 0 is VALUE.
Honesly, I made this list for my own fun and got insane result with it. It's one of the most fun (and still competitive) deck I ever played.
I agree with Kaster, I run bloodcrypt MD in my sultai list without any red spell MD.
Never had any problem with it. SB slot's are precious
I'd love to see your list! I've been really leaning towards a more Sultai build lately but couldn't bare to cut TBR. I would love to play an additional Snapcaster (currently only 1x). Also I'm not sure how much I'll miss lightning bolt. My latest list is on a 1/3 split of Push/Bolt and I find myself siding out Push a lot
I tested it on mtgo and I got a record of 36W-6L,So I decided to play it at an FNM level.
Won a 23 people event with this sultai shadow list splash red in sb. All the matchup felt pretty great. I would not make any change to the list for the moment.
The best play I did, I think it was against humans.
I was on the play in the first game and I had Stubborn denial
and thoughseize in hand. I knew stubb is very useless
against them exept to counter their turn 1 vial. So I passed
and just like I wish, he played turn 1 vial that I've been able to counter. Not playing that thoughseize gave me the win !
Yeah, I like having 2+ stub against devoted company. Coco, Chord, and Paths is a lot of targets, and all are very important.
Spirits it probably depends a lot on the build. If they have CoCo, then I'm inclined to keep 1-2 stubs in. If they don't, then you're only really countering Paths. Maybe Settle the Wreckage. But I'm pretty uncertain about this matchup.
Devoted Company also usually plays Worship post-board which impossible for us to answer without counter magic.
So far with Spirits I've been keeping 1x Stubborn post board. But I'll try to replace that with a SB Delay, since it can counter creatures and hits Spell Queller with its own medicine. Do you think replacing Dismember with Abrade is the right call in game 2/3? The 4 life just hurts so much and casting for 3 is steep too. But it does get around Selfless Spirit which was relevant for me once (I lost that game still though).
I have one collective MD and 1 sb. It answer worship =) but yes. It's good.
I definitely don't want Stubs against Spirits. They're a go-wide creature deck at its core and removal is what's gonna win you the matchup. You still have discard to take their Paths and Cocos. Having a Stub stuck in your hand while they flash in flyer after flyer feels really bad. You also have to keep in mind that they can play Spell Quellers to counter your Stubs, and getting back a discard spell from a Queller that you kill is often a lot better than getting back a Stub.
It's the same for Devoted Company or any other flavor of that archetype - do they play spells that you can target with countermagic? Yes, but the creatures are the problem and you have other solutions for their pesky instants.
I agree with your statement against spirit/humans/merfolk.
But I disagree against Devoted Company. I played 3 stub postboard in my last game against them and they
have been MVP. It counters Chord, Path and collected. 3 very important card in their deck. Stub gave me
2 postboard game. Countering 2 company and 2 chord in 2 matchs.
Went 3-0 at locals, i feel theres too many decks trying to prey on regular Jund,
Im still playing the stock 4c Shadow list from before the banlist. Ie no manamorphose (Havent gotten around to testing them)
2-1 Vs Vizier Elves
Removal and sweepers win this game, this is a good matchup. The game I lost was by a topdecked path to exile after I made sure he had no answer with a thoughtseize.
2-0 vs Burn
Always exciting matchup, theres a lot of burn floating around. It seems to me this is a favourable matchup but its close. Won both games off the back of temur battle rage and quick maths.
2-0 Vs Infect
Another matchup that feels favourable, we run too much removal
Could post your stock list please? I'm on DS just since the unban.
For those playing the deck with BBEs without any colour splashes; what do you think of the lists played a year ago with a single mainboard Godless Shrine (perhaps instead of the mountain) and four Lingering Souls plus and/or Ranger of Eos in the sideboard?
These lists were running rampant a year ago and I don't see why they would not work right now. I'd love to tutor silver bullets with Ulvenwald or BBE into Lingering Souls.
It could probably work. But I play 4 BBE and 4 Kcommand. I grind better than most deck;; I don't think the deck needs
to use more slot to grind with Lingering souls. Eidolon of Rhetoric and/or Kataki seems good options tho.
My main answer to tron and valakut are of course ''TBR and GHOR'' but Magus helps too in these matchup; I would
have to give up on him. Because splashing white means I wont play wooded foothills. I'll play MarshFlat.
Basic Green will be harder to get. (we still can traverse into it tho.
Flayer doesn't feel great right now with all the Bolts and fatties running around. I might be wrong but I'd rather have the consistency of the full Manamorphose and Inquisition playset instead. The former especially has just been outstanding for me lately. Props to Spooly for that.
My list doesnt run IoK. I need more discard against combo deck. (and i'm not missing them in the MD btw.)
Not having stubborn denial make the burn matchup a lil bit harder, so brutality is necessary. (3 could be enaugh).
They are great against Infect/Storm/Burn/Hatebear/8wack/Abzancompany/Merfolk and some more.
-1 dreadbore
+1 dismember
Jace isnt as good as we thought he would be. 1 Dreadbore is enaugh.
Dismember to be more agressive with DS and grow it at instant speed. I like that.
SB changed a bit more. No more blood moon. Magus is enaugh against eldrazi/tron.
I really enjoy 2 temur battlerage / 1 ghor split.
I would say golgari charm has been the MVP in most of my matchup. (when it's good).
The list grind so much. It's amazing;
In the games we dont need to grind, I just sb out Kcommand and BBE then I race.
Always play to make your oponent make mistake.
I often keep Street Wraith a long time (when I dont need to draw absolutly) Then I do my possible to put a 2/2 DS
It gets alot value to kill creature and dodge removal at instant speed.
Question - just bought into Geneyquakes list). I know budget discussion is frowned upon, but I'm not currently in the position to get the playset of Verdant Catacombs. Barring not fetching the single forest, do you think replacing those with Polluted Delta for the time being is OK? My meta is not infested with blood moon.
In any case, have fun with the deck and let me and everyone else know how it performs, what you like and don't like, etc. I have been playing Grixis lately (was gearing up for a GP and opted to stick with my Snapcasters), but this deck is a blast to play and I think there is a lot of exploration to be done.
Thank you for all the advice. I purchased two Verdant Catacombs, so now my manabase is a mix between your list and the one that went 5-0. The list itself is still fully your list, except I'm considering adding one fun-off temur battle rage.
I will keep you updated. I've been playtesting the list on Cockatrice for a while. Although that's not representative, I have a positive winrate against most tier lists. One thing I have noticed is that playing BBE is a bit of a gamble. When you're in a tight spot, getting a Mishra's Bauble or Traverse (when tapped out) or Thoughtseize (when in a topdedcking war) sure feels like a whiff.
On the other hand they can be amazing. You have to like gambling.
Yes it's a gamble but with 4 traverse 4 kcommand 4 shadow 4 tarmo ;; It is really more constent than in tradional jund.
I'm 15-1 at my 4 last fmn (14-16 players) and 5-0 in my last league with BBE jund shadow.
4-0
3-1
4-0
4-0
Last 4 weeks.
Bloodmoon and magus and temur are good together against tron and valakut. You slow them down and get time to do your things.
Bloodmoon gave me a win against Jekai Control. 3 colors deck dont expect that at all from a Shadow Deck. Shadow manabase are usually bad
but in this list. It's not. We 12 fetches you it's very easy to get your basics land. Even more with traverse.
Question 2: Minister of pain can sac himself. So it's a -1/-1 for 3. The reason it's good it's because you can traverse it
AND bring it back with kcommand. When you need it, you traverse it. If you need it again later, your bring it back to your hand.
Question 3: I played alot more games with tradional jund than with shadow bbe jund. My experience against burn is limited as a shadow player.
Brutality helps me to control well my life total against burn while also being a pretty good target for BBE in any matchup. It's versatil and never
100% bad. The biggest reason I play 4 is because the list dont play IOK. So I feel I need some more discard spell in the sb against combo deck.
It also have his tool against control.
At my LGS, a player was playing a pretty agressive deck with sac artifact + 5dmg face jumeled with sac goblins + 5dmg face with bolt and opal.
I was pretty happy to have my 4 copys of CB.
I could even see a CB maindeck instead of tarfire.
Clique and Jace are the flex slot. I play Jace because I enjoy playing jace. The deck doesn't need him at all. It should be in sb.
It's definitivly the worst card in the MD.
Clique has been impressive against combo deck and counter company (taking a coco). But I'm actually testing Nissa Stewart as a 1 of in this slot.
She's been fine (tested only 3 games with her). Being able to look your top deck with Bauble (to see if you can 0) or
Drawing the card you scry on top right now with street wraith is pretty fun. Her ultimate can win games too.
To finish, brainstorming with jace putting Tarmo/snap/shadow on top then using her 0 is VALUE.
Honesly, I made this list for my own fun and got insane result with it. It's one of the most fun (and still competitive) deck I ever played.
Try it (=
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I made it; (look back at my last comment)
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I tested it on mtgo and I got a record of 36W-6L,So I decided to play it at an FNM level.
Won a 23 people event with this sultai shadow list splash red in sb. All the matchup felt pretty great. I would not make any change to the list for the moment.
2-0 Boggles
2-0 Humans
2-0 Affinity
2-1 Counter company
2-1 Eldrazi & Taxes
Won a liliana of the veil (=
The best play I did, I think it was against humans.
I was on the play in the first game and I had Stubborn denial
and thoughseize in hand. I knew stubb is very useless
against them exept to counter their turn 1 vial. So I passed
and just like I wish, he played turn 1 vial that I've been able to counter. Not playing that thoughseize gave me the win !
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's shadow
4 Street wraith
2 Snapcaster mage
1 Vendilion clique
Instant(12)
4 Fatal push
2 Abrupt decay
1 Dismember
2 Opt
3 Stubborn denial
Sorcery(8)
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
Planeswalker(3)
2 Liliana of the veil
1 Jace, the mind sculptor
Land(18)
4 Verdant catacombs
1 Bloodstained mire
4 Polluted delta
2 Misty rainforest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Overgrown tomb
2 Watery grave
1 Blood crypt
1 Breeding pool
2 Ceremonious rejection
1 Stubborn denial
1 Disdainful stroke
2 Surgical extraction
1 Collective brutality
2 Liliana, the last hope
2 Temur battle rage
1 Abrade
1 Radiant flames
1 Izzet staticaster
1 Engineered explosives
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Never had any problem with it. SB slot's are precious
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I have one collective MD and 1 sb. It answer worship =) but yes. It's good.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
I agree with your statement against spirit/humans/merfolk.
But I disagree against Devoted Company. I played 3 stub postboard in my last game against them and they
have been MVP. It counters Chord, Path and collected. 3 very important card in their deck. Stub gave me
2 postboard game. Countering 2 company and 2 chord in 2 matchs.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Could post your stock list please? I'm on DS just since the unban.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
It could probably work. But I play 4 BBE and 4 Kcommand. I grind better than most deck;; I don't think the deck needs
to use more slot to grind with Lingering souls. Eidolon of Rhetoric and/or Kataki seems good options tho.
My main answer to tron and valakut are of course ''TBR and GHOR'' but Magus helps too in these matchup; I would
have to give up on him. Because splashing white means I wont play wooded foothills. I'll play MarshFlat.
Basic Green will be harder to get. (we still can traverse into it tho.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
What is your current list?
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Thank you
---------
This list is looking like mine and just did 5-0.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1019136#paper
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Not having stubborn denial make the burn matchup a lil bit harder, so brutality is necessary. (3 could be enaugh).
They are great against Infect/Storm/Burn/Hatebear/8wack/Abzancompany/Merfolk and some more.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
-1 dreadbore
+1 dismember
Jace isnt as good as we thought he would be. 1 Dreadbore is enaugh.
Dismember to be more agressive with DS and grow it at instant speed. I like that.
SB changed a bit more. No more blood moon. Magus is enaugh against eldrazi/tron.
I really enjoy 2 temur battlerage / 1 ghor split.
I would say golgari charm has been the MVP in most of my matchup. (when it's good).
The list grind so much. It's amazing;
In the games we dont need to grind, I just sb out Kcommand and BBE then I race.
Always play to make your oponent make mistake.
I often keep Street Wraith a long time (when I dont need to draw absolutly) Then I do my possible to put a 2/2 DS
It gets alot value to kill creature and dodge removal at instant speed.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Yes it's a gamble but with 4 traverse 4 kcommand 4 shadow 4 tarmo ;; It is really more constent than in tradional jund.
I'm 15-1 at my 4 last fmn (14-16 players) and 5-0 in my last league with BBE jund shadow.
4-0
3-1
4-0
4-0
Last 4 weeks.
I fought, jeskai control, burn, jund, infect, dredge, mardu pyromancer, human, merfolk, gideon tribal tokens, storm, RG Eldrazi, Bant Eldrazi and more..
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Bloodmoon and magus and temur are good together against tron and valakut. You slow them down and get time to do your things.
Bloodmoon gave me a win against Jekai Control. 3 colors deck dont expect that at all from a Shadow Deck. Shadow manabase are usually bad
but in this list. It's not. We 12 fetches you it's very easy to get your basics land. Even more with traverse.
Question 2: Minister of pain can sac himself. So it's a -1/-1 for 3. The reason it's good it's because you can traverse it
AND bring it back with kcommand. When you need it, you traverse it. If you need it again later, your bring it back to your hand.
Question 3: I played alot more games with tradional jund than with shadow bbe jund. My experience against burn is limited as a shadow player.
Brutality helps me to control well my life total against burn while also being a pretty good target for BBE in any matchup. It's versatil and never
100% bad. The biggest reason I play 4 is because the list dont play IOK. So I feel I need some more discard spell in the sb against combo deck.
It also have his tool against control.
At my LGS, a player was playing a pretty agressive deck with sac artifact + 5dmg face jumeled with sac goblins + 5dmg face with bolt and opal.
I was pretty happy to have my 4 copys of CB.
I could even see a CB maindeck instead of tarfire.
I hope it helped you !
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
It's very a kill deck where you want creatures after creature;
Traverse into BBE ---> shadow into kcommand bring back BBE and put some more pressure.
Kcommand help the goal of having 100% of the time a huge creature on board while still being another 2 for 1.
My plan against combo deck is not to destroy their hand with lili. TS + CB combined with DS + TBR is enaugh.
As a jund player, I would love to play lili, but this list isnt her place to my eyes.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund