Saw Geist's reply and was going to mention that on occasion I've seen a more aggro Jeskai use Mantis along side Lightning Angel, then I saw the list.
It looks interesting. I'd be inclined to cut the Cryptics and a Visions for more Remands, Helixes, and such. The shell seems like it wants to play the aggro-tempo role, not midrange-control.
Right. I was tired when I wrote my reply. If you are going to run the Mantis Riders then there is very little reason to run the serum visions and cryptic because at that point you basically are running a heavy tempo/aggro deck. Boros CharmRemand and Lightning Helix would all immensely help that plan. I'd also want to recommend one of the hasty dragons like Thundermaw Hellkite as a finisher to get through Lingering Souls which your list is going to have trouble with.
I hope I didn't sound harsh on your list, but it does have a much different playstyle then the other lists posted here. And I really do think you are underestimating Geist of Saint Traft. For Mainboard Recommendations:
Again, if you want a 5cc finisher, I'd drop another Lightning Angel for it. I'd also recommend dropping the Mantis Riders as a whole, but if they work for you, they work. I know that they will win games on occasion, being a multi turn lightning bolt to the face and blocker, but a lot of the time it will just be a 3cc spell that taps you out turn 3 and dies to an instant speed removal (which would leave you tapped out on your opponent's typical "combo turn").
I'm imagining you play this list as a heavy aggro list, like a 4 color burn that runs blue for snapcaster and your haste creatures and the occasional tempo remand play. That is why I recommended the Boros Charms, because burn runs them (and because they are useful with both snapcaster and geist of saint traft protection).
In my testing, I've been immensely pleased with mantis rider and lightning angel, the amount of pressure they deliver as soon as they hit the board is just awesome. Yes, mantis rider can be bolted, but you'd be surprised at how often it goes unanswered and does some serious beating. Not to mention the fact that both these guys play offense and defense without skipping a beat, flying over board stalls while keeping up a wall. Having 2 Geist of Saint Traft feels right, I feel like I usually see him only when I need him. One change I've been considering is getting rid of cryptic command, and maybe putting in dispel, I've just felt that holding up 4 mana is not usually what I want to be doing, and I think I would rather just have a bit of 1 mana protection for my boltable friend. What do you guys think on that change and the deck in general. Feedback, suggestions and constructive criticism are welcome and encouraged.
Geist of Saint Traft traft is better than mantis rider. One dies to every removal spell in the format. The other only does to blocking, pyroclasm, and liliana. One puts your opponent on a 6 turn clock (assuming fetch damage) one puts them on a 3 Turn clock.
One advantage this type of deck has is that it makes all of your opponent's removal useless. Mantis rider turns it on. I also think restoration angel is better than lightning angel. Same size but one has flash and saves geist. Flash is huge.
I'd recommend upping to 4 geist and running the mantis sideboard.
It's so hard because there are MUs where Souls is soooo much better than Geist and then there are MUs where Geist is soooo much better than Souls. And it's really almost like 50/50. For this reason I keep changing the numbers of both cards maindeck and in the sideboard. Going for a 2-2 split like I'm doing now is sort of a way "not to take a decision".
I lost a game when I killed emrakul. Crackling doom can do it. But then it shuffles back and gets retutored and cast. I do like fulminator mage but double red is tough.
In the past little bit I am 26-8. My 8 losses are:
Melira Company
Kiki Chord (misplay cost me the game)
Abzan
Owl (that artifact that hurts you for having a full hand)
White Taxes (landlocked with ghost quarter and Leonin Arbiter)
Blue Tron
Rg Tron
Rg Tron
I've beaten:
4 Color Control
Abzan Allies
Affinity
Affinity
B/W Humans
B/W Tokens
Blitzkreig
Bloodcrank
Burn
G Stompy
Grixis Control
Grixis Control
Grixis Delver
Grixis Twin
Jund
Merfolk
Naya Burn
Naya Stompy
Owl
Red Aggro
Red Aggro
RUG Twin
Scapeshift
Slivers
UWR Control
White Taxes
That is a 76% Win Rate. Except against Tron.
As you can see the hardest pairing is Tron. I have yet to beat it other than in solo testing. I have not played against Amulet Bloom yet. Or Blood Moon but I have seen lots of Choke. Choke and Blood Moon you can play around and I run Wear // Tear for. Tron, I'm still at a loss for. As you can see with my previous posts I am just looking for a way to beat them consistently and without Blood Moon.
I may have found an answer to slow down Tron and Amulet that is not Blood Moon
If I have Boom // Bust and I target an opponent's land and my arid mesa and then crack my fetch land in response without passing priority then the opponent's land is destroyed and mine is not.
This card could be the answer we are looking for in our 8-9 fetch land decks.
I was not saying this deck would be successful. I was just wondering if it was a proper reaction to a strong Tron/Bloom field. Granted a strong Tron/Bloom field could mean a resurgence in Affinity and Twin (which we are good against) or it could mean everyone starts packing Blood Moons (which we should be ready for).
I'm still testing and grinding through with my UWRb list. I am testing Aven Mindcensor as a 1 of maind board in place of 1 electrolyze and so far it has been ok.
However, scapeshift decks are no longer a tier one threat. And post side board they usually side in inferno titan anyways.
Per the most recent meta results on http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper we have to combat more RG Tron then ever before. As of right now it is the most played deck in modern. Amulet Bloom is the 6th most played. GBx decks, Naya Burn, and Affinity round out the rest of the top 6. Per the meta right now, today, blood moon might be the best sideboard (or hell even main board) card in modern. Maybe the Tron and Bloom decks winning is just a fad and it will pass. Maybe not, but those matchups are terrible for us. The solution? Blood Moon and/or Thoughtseize. Since UWRb cannot reliably turn one thoughtseize it might be worth looking at the alternative.
A deck built around Blood Moon that has the control aspects of UWR and the finishing power of Geist of Saint Traft sounds deadly for Amulet Bloom and Tron decks. That deck could run 2-3 Blood Moons main in the spots usually filled by cryptic command or other UU or UUU requirements. How would it fair against GBx decks? I'm not sure. I still think the collected company decks are just waiting to emerge as well.
Or we could be patient and wait for the meta to correct itself and keep jamming geist. I just wanted to acknowledge that Blood Moon is great right now and that the black splash cannot run it.
I prefer a grindier deck that can grind out wins it should not. Which is why I love the black splash. I'm really just looking for a solution to beat Tron and Amulet Bloom (mostly the bloom).
I went to a Grand Prix Trial today. Made it to the semi-finals. I even won a game where my opponent resolved a choke so that was exciting.
I lost to Abzan when I did not draw any lands. It stinks when you have the answers you need (Game one I had restoration angels in hand against his lingering souls but never drew a fourth land. Game two I never drew a path for his tarmogoyfs and never drew into a fetch land or black source to kill it with crackling doom) but don't draw the lands you need to play them. I guess that happens oh well.
I am not sure how I felt with the Ajani Vengeant out of the side board. He would have won a game by himself if my opponent hadn't cast a hero's downfall. I wasn't even sure anyone ran that in Modern. He might need to be an EE or a Kor Firewalker. Not sure yet. Or even a negate.
The deck is definitely playable. I met a few people who gave a lot of pushback about the viability of Geist in the meta. They insisted that Lingering Souls is 10x better than Geist main board. I still think Geist is the best card in the deck and I will not be cutting him main board. He is great. He wins games quickly if not answered and the deck is built around clearing the board for him.
GreatNate, I had a quick question on your mana base. You and the TeamGeist group have historically run 9 fetch lands. Your list only runs 8. It is the advent of serum visions that guided you to cut the fetch land or was it something else? (I know that serum visions helped you trim from 25 to 24 lands, I'm just surprised it was a fetch that was cut.)
For Eiganjo Castle. It is a card (and I think GreatNate will agree with me) that you should NOT run if you are 4 colors. If you are a classic UWR list then it is a wonderful card. A 4 color list really cannot afford to run too many lands that do not provide multiple colors. If I remember correctly GreatNate lost a game where he had an Eiganjo Castle in play and a lot of black cards in hand. If it were a black fetch instead he could have won that game.
Your list looks like a merger between the list that whatehpho ran and mine. You run aven mindcensor and I run Tasigur, the golden fang. You run the hasty finisher, I run the grindy one. I also dropped one electrolyze for a K-Command. It is one of the few ways our deck can kill a spellskite without wasting a path to exile or double lightning bolt. Being able to destroy their spellskite while making them discard a card (at instant speed) or recurring a snapcaster mage from the graveyard is amazing. I've been wanting to find a way to run more K-Commands, but the list is so tight as is.
To help answer your question about cryptic command, let me ask you some instead. What decks is it great against? What decks is it terrible against? Does it improve your good matchups or just your bad ones? Cryptic Command is terrible in a format where people kill you in turns 3-4. It is great in a meta where people kill you turns 7+. Which are you expecting to play against?
I also recommend you playtest Tasigur a few times mainboard. In his place right now you have the Aven. Tasigur is basically like having a tarmogoyf that dodges inquisition of kozilek and abrupt decay. He walls off zoo (which is very big right now) or at least 2 for 1s them and can block siege rhinos all day long. His card draw is real and is maindeck help against all of the grindy matchups. If you have 1 or 2 of him mainboard, you do not need to devote any slots (other than lingering souls) sideboard against the grindy matchups. With crackling doom, tasigur, and lingering souls, you will be in good shape.
Please note my sideboard is a mess right now. I need to straighten it out before Sunday. My worst matchups (I feel) are Tron, Burn, CoCo, and Amulet Bloom.
I'd love feedback on my whole list: main and board.
Maybe you should check out this page: It's the UWR aggro page. I think these guys lists are closer to yours then most of this page.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/220047-wur-delver
Right. I was tired when I wrote my reply. If you are going to run the Mantis Riders then there is very little reason to run the serum visions and cryptic because at that point you basically are running a heavy tempo/aggro deck. Boros Charm Remand and Lightning Helix would all immensely help that plan. I'd also want to recommend one of the hasty dragons like Thundermaw Hellkite as a finisher to get through Lingering Souls which your list is going to have trouble with.
I hope I didn't sound harsh on your list, but it does have a much different playstyle then the other lists posted here. And I really do think you are underestimating Geist of Saint Traft. For Mainboard Recommendations:
+2 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Lightning Helix
+2 Boros Charm
+2 Remand
-2 Serum Visions
-2 Cryptic Command
-3 Mana Leak
-1 Lightning Angel
-1 Flooded Strand
+1 Celestial Colonnade
Again, if you want a 5cc finisher, I'd drop another Lightning Angel for it. I'd also recommend dropping the Mantis Riders as a whole, but if they work for you, they work. I know that they will win games on occasion, being a multi turn lightning bolt to the face and blocker, but a lot of the time it will just be a 3cc spell that taps you out turn 3 and dies to an instant speed removal (which would leave you tapped out on your opponent's typical "combo turn").
I'm imagining you play this list as a heavy aggro list, like a 4 color burn that runs blue for snapcaster and your haste creatures and the occasional tempo remand play. That is why I recommended the Boros Charms, because burn runs them (and because they are useful with both snapcaster and geist of saint traft protection).
Geist of Saint Traft traft is better than mantis rider. One dies to every removal spell in the format. The other only does to blocking, pyroclasm, and liliana. One puts your opponent on a 6 turn clock (assuming fetch damage) one puts them on a 3 Turn clock.
One advantage this type of deck has is that it makes all of your opponent's removal useless. Mantis rider turns it on. I also think restoration angel is better than lightning angel. Same size but one has flash and saves geist. Flash is huge.
I'd recommend upping to 4 geist and running the mantis sideboard.
TheAller,
How did shadow of doubt work for you?
Melira Company
Kiki Chord (misplay cost me the game)
Abzan
Owl (that artifact that hurts you for having a full hand)
White Taxes (landlocked with ghost quarter and Leonin Arbiter)
Blue Tron
Rg Tron
Rg Tron
I've beaten:
4 Color Control
Abzan Allies
Affinity
Affinity
B/W Humans
B/W Tokens
Blitzkreig
Bloodcrank
Burn
G Stompy
Grixis Control
Grixis Control
Grixis Delver
Grixis Twin
Jund
Merfolk
Naya Burn
Naya Stompy
Owl
Red Aggro
Red Aggro
RUG Twin
Scapeshift
Slivers
UWR Control
White Taxes
That is a 76% Win Rate. Except against Tron.
As you can see the hardest pairing is Tron. I have yet to beat it other than in solo testing. I have not played against Amulet Bloom yet. Or Blood Moon but I have seen lots of Choke. Choke and Blood Moon you can play around and I run Wear // Tear for. Tron, I'm still at a loss for. As you can see with my previous posts I am just looking for a way to beat them consistently and without Blood Moon.
How has the rest of the group fared?
I guess that one CC is worth knowing they will never get the Tron package online. Hmm..
If I have Boom // Bust and I target an opponent's land and my arid mesa and then crack my fetch land in response without passing priority then the opponent's land is destroyed and mine is not.
This card could be the answer we are looking for in our 8-9 fetch land decks.
Source: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/magic-rulings-archives/305929-boom-bust-fetchlands
Also if Geist or Keranos is out on an empty field than Bust doesn't look too bad either.
Thoughts?
4 Lightning Helix
4 Path To Exile
1 Electrolyze
3 Blood Moon
1 Mana Leak
3 Remand
3 Serum Visions
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Restoration Angel
3 Steam Vents
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
4 celestial colonnade
4 scalding tarn
2 flooded strand
2 arid mesa
1 sulfur falls
I was not saying this deck would be successful. I was just wondering if it was a proper reaction to a strong Tron/Bloom field. Granted a strong Tron/Bloom field could mean a resurgence in Affinity and Twin (which we are good against) or it could mean everyone starts packing Blood Moons (which we should be ready for).
I'm still testing and grinding through with my UWRb list. I am testing Aven Mindcensor as a 1 of maind board in place of 1 electrolyze and so far it has been ok.
The original reason for the black splash was to better compete with the GBx decks. Crackling Doom lingering souls and Tasigur, the golden fang all are cards that win the grindy matchups. Add slaughter games as a potential sideboard card and you can now beat one dimensional decks like scapeshift.
However, scapeshift decks are no longer a tier one threat. And post side board they usually side in inferno titan anyways.
Per the most recent meta results on http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/modern#paper we have to combat more RG Tron then ever before. As of right now it is the most played deck in modern. Amulet Bloom is the 6th most played. GBx decks, Naya Burn, and Affinity round out the rest of the top 6. Per the meta right now, today, blood moon might be the best sideboard (or hell even main board) card in modern. Maybe the Tron and Bloom decks winning is just a fad and it will pass. Maybe not, but those matchups are terrible for us. The solution? Blood Moon and/or Thoughtseize. Since UWRb cannot reliably turn one thoughtseize it might be worth looking at the alternative.
A deck built around Blood Moon that has the control aspects of UWR and the finishing power of Geist of Saint Traft sounds deadly for Amulet Bloom and Tron decks. That deck could run 2-3 Blood Moons main in the spots usually filled by cryptic command or other UU or UUU requirements. How would it fair against GBx decks? I'm not sure. I still think the collected company decks are just waiting to emerge as well.
Or we could be patient and wait for the meta to correct itself and keep jamming geist. I just wanted to acknowledge that Blood Moon is great right now and that the black splash cannot run it.
I prefer a grindier deck that can grind out wins it should not. Which is why I love the black splash. I'm really just looking for a solution to beat Tron and Amulet Bloom (mostly the bloom).
1 blood crypt
4 celestial colonnade
4 flooded strand
1 godless shrine
1 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 mountain
1 plains
2 sacred foundry
1 scalding tarn
2 steam vents
1 sulfur falls
1 watery grave
2 electrolyze
1 kolaghan's command
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile
4 remand
4 geist of saint traft
1 keranos, god of storms
3 restoration angel
4 snapcaster mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Celestial Purge
1x Counterflux
3x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Kor Firewalker
3x Lingering Souls
1x Stony Silence
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Wear / Tear
I went to a Grand Prix Trial today. Made it to the semi-finals. I even won a game where my opponent resolved a choke so that was exciting.
I lost to Abzan when I did not draw any lands. It stinks when you have the answers you need (Game one I had restoration angels in hand against his lingering souls but never drew a fourth land. Game two I never drew a path for his tarmogoyfs and never drew into a fetch land or black source to kill it with crackling doom) but don't draw the lands you need to play them. I guess that happens oh well.
I am not sure how I felt with the Ajani Vengeant out of the side board. He would have won a game by himself if my opponent hadn't cast a hero's downfall. I wasn't even sure anyone ran that in Modern. He might need to be an EE or a Kor Firewalker. Not sure yet. Or even a negate.
The deck is definitely playable. I met a few people who gave a lot of pushback about the viability of Geist in the meta. They insisted that Lingering Souls is 10x better than Geist main board. I still think Geist is the best card in the deck and I will not be cutting him main board. He is great. He wins games quickly if not answered and the deck is built around clearing the board for him.
Maybe I'm just remember Lucas Hyttel's list: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9945&d=257360&f=MO
Either way, how did the RPTQ go GreatNate?
For Eiganjo Castle. It is a card (and I think GreatNate will agree with me) that you should NOT run if you are 4 colors. If you are a classic UWR list then it is a wonderful card. A 4 color list really cannot afford to run too many lands that do not provide multiple colors. If I remember correctly GreatNate lost a game where he had an Eiganjo Castle in play and a lot of black cards in hand. If it were a black fetch instead he could have won that game.
Your list looks like a merger between the list that whatehpho ran and mine. You run aven mindcensor and I run Tasigur, the golden fang. You run the hasty finisher, I run the grindy one. I also dropped one electrolyze for a K-Command. It is one of the few ways our deck can kill a spellskite without wasting a path to exile or double lightning bolt. Being able to destroy their spellskite while making them discard a card (at instant speed) or recurring a snapcaster mage from the graveyard is amazing. I've been wanting to find a way to run more K-Commands, but the list is so tight as is.
To help answer your question about cryptic command, let me ask you some instead. What decks is it great against? What decks is it terrible against? Does it improve your good matchups or just your bad ones? Cryptic Command is terrible in a format where people kill you in turns 3-4. It is great in a meta where people kill you turns 7+. Which are you expecting to play against?
I also recommend you playtest Tasigur a few times mainboard. In his place right now you have the Aven. Tasigur is basically like having a tarmogoyf that dodges inquisition of kozilek and abrupt decay. He walls off zoo (which is very big right now) or at least 2 for 1s them and can block siege rhinos all day long. His card draw is real and is maindeck help against all of the grindy matchups. If you have 1 or 2 of him mainboard, you do not need to devote any slots (other than lingering souls) sideboard against the grindy matchups. With crackling doom, tasigur, and lingering souls, you will be in good shape.
For reference my list:
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
4 celestial colonnade
4 flooded strand
1 godless shrine
1 hallowed fountain
1 island
1 mountain
1 plains
2 sacred foundry
1 scalding tarn
2 steam vents
1 sulfur falls
1 watery grave
2 crackling doom
2 electrolyze
1 kolaghan's command
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile
4 remand
4 geist of saint traft
3 restoration angel
4 snapcaster mage
2 tasigur, the golden fang
1 keranos, god of storms
Sideboard:
1 aven mindcensor
1 crumble to dust
1 kor firewalker
3 lingering souls
1 celestial purge
3 dispel
1 supreme verdict
2 wear / tear
2 stony silence
Please note my sideboard is a mess right now. I need to straighten it out before Sunday. My worst matchups (I feel) are Tron, Burn, CoCo, and Amulet Bloom.
I'd love feedback on my whole list: main and board.