I don't personally think it would be useful against anything but storm or KCI. Burn and Izzet will just bolt it. Tron and UW aren't particularly concerned because it's a slow source of dmg against them. This creature costs 3 mana which is considerable amount. Also requires RR which isn't always easy.
I think most configurations of Traverse Shadow should have a fairly positive win percentage against both Storm and KCI so i wouldn't consider Scab Clan. Against Tron, UWx, and Phoenix there are far better options with more reasonable casting costs. To credit Defish, packing a few Fulminator Mages in SB will help much more against UW and Tron.
Anyone taken a look at any of the new RNA cards as consideration for our Archetype?
GDS and UWx both have little to no way of interacting with Phyrexian Arena, which seems relevant. Jeskai specifically has burn+snap+burn so running too long off Arena could be risky against them.
It's a card i honestly would've never considered. Thanks for the tip.
Its worth mentioning that your approach seems to better navigate the pitfalls of midrange match-ups but how do you fair against linear decks? Storm should be cake for any Thoughtseize deck but what about phyrexian unlife decks or pyro prison? Or how about decks with mana efficient creatures or lots of fliers? Im specifically interested in your Humans and Spirits match-ups. What are some lines of play you recall working well for you against them? What struggles have you had?
While i wouldn't consider either Humans or Spirits more difficult opponents than UWx or BGx, i would say that the former are far more prevalent in the meta than the latter. I think it's important to hedge for SB bets where you can realistically make up the most ground.
Im noticing a lot more GDS players in pick-up games online, so I'm thinking that is due to combat the Phoenix decks. It's unfortunate because I'm certain Traverse Shadowis better against Phoenixthan GDS, but i think GDS might be better against us Traverse players. I'm having a tough time winning a match against them. We might need more Kolaghan's Command in the sideboard to help here. LOTV was particularly underwhelming actually so im not sure about her either
I'm gladto hear you feel that way. I added it back into my list because it's been the "thing to do" with the resurgence of dredge and prevalence of humans & Spirits. But during the PTQ season earlier this year i developed a disdain for the card because i drew it naturally sometimes and it was terrible, and also rarely found myself needing to traverse for it. Literally only one time that i recorded did i actually need to traverse for it, and it actually wasn't in my list that day so i lost that match against D&T.
Maybe Ghor-Clan is actually obsolete? I personally keep an extra TBR in my sideboard for matches like that
My problem with LOTV in this deck (and metagame) is just like you said: when she's bad, she's awful. She's near useless against Spirits, Affinity, Tron, and barely a Tribute to Hunger against Burn. She's only ok against Humans but mostly if you're on the offensive. I've played 1-2 copies in quite a few competitive events and I was disappointed to see 90% of the time. I dropped her when I started running manamorphose and haven't looked back. It gives the deck more of a "Exarch Twin" feel than an "Aggressive Jund" feel. It streamlines the approach: disrupt, fatty, protect, lethal
So I've been thinking about this since I have GDS and Goyfs from the old Suicide version, but no LoTV and have been curious if the 4C lists are viable without LoTV? Can I see your list?
I posted my list right on the page previous to this one. Its a manamorphose list with only 3x blue and 3x red cards in the main deck.
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Question for everyone. Anyone tried Engineered Explosives for the sideboard? It seems a bit narrow to me, but i opened a foil one from UMA and initially I just thought of selling it, but I know I've seen it used in a lot of GDS sideboards. Rarely in Traverse decks though. Any thoughts?
My problem with LOTV in this deck (and metagame) is just like you said: when she's bad, she's awful. She's near useless against Spirits, Affinity, Tron, and barely a Tribute to Hunger against Burn. She's only ok against Humans but mostly if you're on the offensive. I've played 1-2 copies in quite a few competitive events and I was disappointed to see 90% of the time. I dropped her when I started running manamorphose and haven't looked back. It gives the deck more of a "Exarch Twin" feel than an "Aggressive Jund" feel. It streamlines the approach: disrupt, fatty, protect, lethal
Alright, so I ordered everything I need except for the Polluted Deltas. Unfortunately the list I was looking at when I said all I was missing was the DS’s and the U Shocklands was THIS ONE that didn’t play any Deltas (and played 4x Verdants, 4x Mires, and 3x Foothills instead), I’m assuming as a budget decision. I didn’t realize it at the time.
I could order the Deltas now, but I kinda already pushed my budget limits. I bought a second Liliana, the Last Hope, the fourth Leyline of the Void (I needed that one anyway, I thought I could get by with three because the Hollow One decks were only running three back when I purchased those), and a fourth Lorwyn Thoughtseize (I only ever needed three at most for Jund. I have Theros TS’s, but there’s no way I’m running mismatched cards or even newer printings of cards in a deck I care about). Those cards, plus the DS’s and old U Shocklands, kinda maxed me out $$$wise.
So, with that said, I’m going to try both Jund DS and 4c DS, and if I find that the Wooded Foothills are just too bad in 4c, I may trade some stuff into my LGS for 4x Khans Polluted Deltas as a placeholder until I can spring for the Onslaught Deltas. Do you think the Foothills will be a big setback to my manabase? I can’t stand playing suboptimal lists.
I can’t lie, I watched some videos last night (Holy s*** Hoogland is almost unbearable to listen to sometimes) and Stubborn Denial seems really strong (and like you said, fetching for U really just forwards our plan of getting below 13 life, so there’s really not a downside). I’m motivated to play 4c based on what I saw and per your suggestion, Siegel. BUT... straight Jund Shadow would make me feel a little closer to home like I was just playing an Aggro-oriented classic Jund list. And between that familiarity, not needing Deltas, and because of DeFish’s suggestion, I’m also inclined to play that version. So I will try both, and do more research in the meantime.
I do really want to know though, so give it to me straight, how bad is Wooded Foothills in 4c? Is it going to give me a skewed impression of the deck? Here is that list again that I was initially going off of, for reference.
And I really appreciate the input, by the way. Both of y’all.
While the choice between 4c and Jund is basically dependent on how important stubborn denial is for your expected meta game, I think that Wooded Foothills are generally ok considering a couple factors. As a die-hard 4c player myself, I find that watery grave is typically the first shock I fetch. Now of course this depends on my opening hand and what I know about the opponent so far, but consider that my only main deck blue cards are 3x Stubborn. My value for blue may be accentuated by the blue sideboard options. Burn and Tron are very popular and they are both match-ups that are easy to push to 60% or better with some sideboard tech.
Here's why I consider all 4 colors to be critical.
Blue is crucial for beating burn and KCI (counter spells), and still very good against Tron, Storm, Dredge and Primeval Titan.
Red is crucial for beating Humans and Spirits (removal, sweepers, TBR) but also helps against Affinity, Scales, KCI, and Storm.
And while BGx midrange and UWx control are near impossible to win, I feel that my counter spells are one of the few edges I have in the match ups. For reference, here's my current list
K-Command in the maindeck is one of the strangest things to me. It's completely dependent on your expected meta game. Personally I feel like our KCI and affinity (including scales) match ups should be fairly good anyway.
If you wantto be prepared for KCI, extra counter spells work great and also pull double duty against burn, Tron, and Valakut. If you're liking KCMD for its affinity application, I would say straight removal wouldbe better because you can also use it against humans and spirits.
All that being said, I personally still use 1x KCmd in my sideboard.
Rending Volley is a card if you want to get super narrow but it has cross-applicability in that it hits almost all of humans too.
Rending Volley is interesting but the fact that it doesn't hit Noble, Freebooter, and can still be "countered" with Spell Queller..is a deal breaker for me
Against Spirits counter magic works a little better because they don't always Vial, and they have non-creature spells that can't be protected with Cavern of Souls. I like Delay, Lightning bolt, and Radiant flames here. But Spell Queller is the absolute MVP for them. Delay is very powerful against them but I suppose the Mana Leak plan could work as well.
Against both decks you really want to protect your life total because they can go wide out of nowhere. Apostle's Blessing is certainly an interesting choice. It could even double as evasion if you need to swing big. Almost all their creatures are white which is relevant in this case.
I've seen K-Command used against either deck but I don't know if that's right. It's not always a 2-for-1 and against critical matches like this I don't want to be spending three Mana unless it's definitely creating board/card advantage. Languish can't be correct here because they both have tax effects (Thalia & Wanderer) so 4 Mana is near uncastable.
I wonder if Nature's Way could be a nice tech here that doubles as removal?
I don't keep Jund in mind at all, it's a lost cause. Not one slot in my sideboard is dedicated purely to BGx decks, I really don't see the point as we're never going to flip the matchup in our favor, even with Souls.
This is the right mentality. To be honest, none of BGx seems to be particularly prominent in the metagame anyway. I played in 7 PPTQs over the summer and between my teammate (piloting UG Infect) and I, we never saw a single BGx Midrange variant, and only 2x Mardu players. These events we're 30-70 players each, major cities like San Diego and LA.
To drive the point home, Humans and Spirits are everywhere, and these are match-ups that can be prepared for (to a realistic degree). I think it's possible to tune your SB for these Wx Aggro decks (including GW Vizier) and also have room to combat Big Mana and burn. Wins against KCI and Storm should come easily anyway
Neither is a great option against Scapeshift though so I guess it's probably too narrow, as you said.
I've only played one match against Amulet Titan (that I recall) and it really took me by surprise game 1. I was surprised how few main deck answers I had for it. But in retrospect, any deck that virtually doesn't interact at all for the first 3-4 turns should be easy for us with TBR.
Personally I always keep a single KC in my Sideboard because it's so good against certain match-ups. It's also near useless against other decks so its SB material at best as far as I'm concerned.
LOTV comes in and out of my list from time to time, usually as a singleton. I'm usually disappointed too see her so it's staying out until I expect a metagame where she's more potent. Against Humans and Spirits she's at best a Tribute to Hunger and that's the match-up I want to be most prepared for.
I played a few pick-up games tonight against Arclight Phoenix, two different variations. The deck felt surprisingly weak. Record against one list was 3-0 and 2-0 against the other list. I don't see the angle of the deck working better than traditional burn. I haven't played against the new creeping dredge decks yet, but I'm confident.
Hollow One seems to be losing metagame presence which I consider a bad thing for us, because it's usually an easy win in my experience. UW and Jund are still my nemeses. I've won a game here and there against UW, and I believe my grand total record against Jund is 1-X in god knows how many practice matches with my team.
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If Amulet Titan is expected to see a Resurgence, what are our best plans against them? Personally I like Delay and Fulminator Mage. Here are something others I thought of:
I think most configurations of Traverse Shadow should have a fairly positive win percentage against both Storm and KCI so i wouldn't consider Scab Clan. Against Tron, UWx, and Phoenix there are far better options with more reasonable casting costs. To credit Defish, packing a few Fulminator Mages in SB will help much more against UW and Tron.
Anyone taken a look at any of the new RNA cards as consideration for our Archetype?
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It's a card i honestly would've never considered. Thanks for the tip.
Its worth mentioning that your approach seems to better navigate the pitfalls of midrange match-ups but how do you fair against linear decks? Storm should be cake for any Thoughtseize deck but what about phyrexian unlife decks or pyro prison? Or how about decks with mana efficient creatures or lots of fliers? Im specifically interested in your Humans and Spirits match-ups. What are some lines of play you recall working well for you against them? What struggles have you had?
While i wouldn't consider either Humans or Spirits more difficult opponents than UWx or BGx, i would say that the former are far more prevalent in the meta than the latter. I think it's important to hedge for SB bets where you can realistically make up the most ground.
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Maybe Ghor-Clan is actually obsolete? I personally keep an extra TBR in my sideboard for matches like that
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I posted my list right on the page previous to this one. Its a manamorphose list with only 3x blue and 3x red cards in the main deck.
----
Question for everyone. Anyone tried Engineered Explosives for the sideboard? It seems a bit narrow to me, but i opened a foil one from UMA and initially I just thought of selling it, but I know I've seen it used in a lot of GDS sideboards. Rarely in Traverse decks though. Any thoughts?
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While the choice between 4c and Jund is basically dependent on how important stubborn denial is for your expected meta game, I think that Wooded Foothills are generally ok considering a couple factors. As a die-hard 4c player myself, I find that watery grave is typically the first shock I fetch. Now of course this depends on my opening hand and what I know about the opponent so far, but consider that my only main deck blue cards are 3x Stubborn. My value for blue may be accentuated by the blue sideboard options. Burn and Tron are very popular and they are both match-ups that are easy to push to 60% or better with some sideboard tech.
Here's why I consider all 4 colors to be critical.
Blue is crucial for beating burn and KCI (counter spells), and still very good against Tron, Storm, Dredge and Primeval Titan.
Red is crucial for beating Humans and Spirits (removal, sweepers, TBR) but also helps against Affinity, Scales, KCI, and Storm.
And while BGx midrange and UWx control are near impossible to win, I feel that my counter spells are one of the few edges I have in the match ups. For reference, here's my current list
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ghor-Clan Rampager
Spells (30)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Manamorphose
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Fatal Push
2 Dismember
1 Lightning bolt
2 Temur Battle Rage
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Collective Brutality
2 Delay
1 Spell Snare
2 Radiant Flames
1 Abrade
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Assassin's Trophy
1 Fulminator Mage
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Temur Battle Rage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
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If you wantto be prepared for KCI, extra counter spells work great and also pull double duty against burn, Tron, and Valakut. If you're liking KCMD for its affinity application, I would say straight removal wouldbe better because you can also use it against humans and spirits.
All that being said, I personally still use 1x KCmd in my sideboard.
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Rending Volley is interesting but the fact that it doesn't hit Noble, Freebooter, and can still be "countered" with Spell Queller..is a deal breaker for me
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Against both decks you really want to protect your life total because they can go wide out of nowhere. Apostle's Blessing is certainly an interesting choice. It could even double as evasion if you need to swing big. Almost all their creatures are white which is relevant in this case.
I've seen K-Command used against either deck but I don't know if that's right. It's not always a 2-for-1 and against critical matches like this I don't want to be spending three Mana unless it's definitely creating board/card advantage. Languish can't be correct here because they both have tax effects (Thalia & Wanderer) so 4 Mana is near uncastable.
I wonder if Nature's Way could be a nice tech here that doubles as removal?
Draft My Cube!
This is the right mentality. To be honest, none of BGx seems to be particularly prominent in the metagame anyway. I played in 7 PPTQs over the summer and between my teammate (piloting UG Infect) and I, we never saw a single BGx Midrange variant, and only 2x Mardu players. These events we're 30-70 players each, major cities like San Diego and LA.
To drive the point home, Humans and Spirits are everywhere, and these are match-ups that can be prepared for (to a realistic degree). I think it's possible to tune your SB for these Wx Aggro decks (including GW Vizier) and also have room to combat Big Mana and burn. Wins against KCI and Storm should come easily anyway
Draft My Cube!
I've only played one match against Amulet Titan (that I recall) and it really took me by surprise game 1. I was surprised how few main deck answers I had for it. But in retrospect, any deck that virtually doesn't interact at all for the first 3-4 turns should be easy for us with TBR.
Draft My Cube!
Personally I always keep a single KC in my Sideboard because it's so good against certain match-ups. It's also near useless against other decks so its SB material at best as far as I'm concerned.
LOTV comes in and out of my list from time to time, usually as a singleton. I'm usually disappointed too see her so it's staying out until I expect a metagame where she's more potent. Against Humans and Spirits she's at best a Tribute to Hunger and that's the match-up I want to be most prepared for.
I played a few pick-up games tonight against Arclight Phoenix, two different variations. The deck felt surprisingly weak. Record against one list was 3-0 and 2-0 against the other list. I don't see the angle of the deck working better than traditional burn. I haven't played against the new creeping dredge decks yet, but I'm confident.
Hollow One seems to be losing metagame presence which I consider a bad thing for us, because it's usually an easy win in my experience. UW and Jund are still my nemeses. I've won a game here and there against UW, and I believe my grand total record against Jund is 1-X in god knows how many practice matches with my team.
----
If Amulet Titan is expected to see a Resurgence, what are our best plans against them? Personally I like Delay and Fulminator Mage. Here are something others I thought of:
Draft My Cube!
Would you mind elaborating? Sharing a list or some techniques you've found useful
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