So, in theory, is an opening hand with tons of cantrips, maybe a Thoughtseize or Inquistion, but otherwise no guaranteed action - worth keeping? I'm asking this of Spooly and the other Manamorphos players. The deck has some difficult mulligan decisions as it is.
Thanks for those tips. I havent faced Mardu yet but it seems like it could be difficult so I'll try to find room in my board for a G-charm or two.
The Spirits match is definitely going to be problematic. The deck feels almost more dangerous than burn IMHO. I do have some match results from last week to share:
Against UG Infect - we went to game 3, and each game was drawn out longer than expected. I lost game 1 but boarding in Lingering souls took me to victory games 2 and 3. Boarded out LOTV and Abrupt decay. Having crucial information about their hand was also key here.
Against UW Control - this match felt unwinnable. They just have too many answers and I'm not fast enough. Once I did get in for a win with some early threats, leaving me a 1-2 loss. I boarded in 10 cards, effectively transforming the deck which might have been a mistake. Stubborn Denial didn't seem very useful here.
Against Jeskai Control - even though I lost this one 0-2, the match-up felt a little better than UW. They have less counterspells so threats stuck more often. Burn isn't great against my threats but burn spells did kill me both games. Maybe boarding in an additional Temur battle rage could be good here. I didn't draw Stub this match but I did board it in game 2.
Overall I feel I just need to be more aggressive. No additional threats outside of Shadow and Goyf is a mistake. More delirium enablers also. LOTV was a bust in all three matches but I still feel she's useful in others. I will try to go down to 1x maindeck.
Question - what are the proper uses of Golgari Charm? I see it sideboards fairly often, usually as a 2-of but I'm sure of the best match-ups to bring it in for.
Also, has anyone played against UWx Spirits? I played two matches against the deck and lost both 0-2. It seems like a watered down Humans deck but when everything has flying and even without Vial most things can be flashed in.
Yeah, I think Traverse is significantly better than GDS because of the threat issue. Not that I think that Traverse is good... but I think GDS is worse. Even Ben Friedman said he doesn't think GDS has a good matchup in the to 10 decks of the metagame, where about half seem favored for Traverse. The wrong half, perhaps, but half.
I hear ya on Decay. But right now I think Traverse Shadow need more cheap removal to justify itself, TBH. If you can't beat humans, I don't think you should be playing the deck.
Maybe I just haven't played against enough skilled Humans players (or I've been lucky) but I don't feel that the match-up is that bad. I would certainly much rather play against Humans than Jeskai control, which BTW has taken over as the top metagame presence for the last two months, according to mtgtop8.com
(so I guess maybe you're right in that Death's Shadow is not well positioned at the moment)
Sure it's possible, it's just not a great card right now. It forces you to play the long game against decks that are much better at the long game than us.
Maybe those aren't the decks you want to bring Souls in against? I wouldn't board in Souls against a deck that has a better mid-game than I do. I bring it in against Infect, Affinity, & Spirits mainly. And it's pretty good against humans though I don't usually board it in. I can be very annoying for Hollow One to deal with 4x Spirit tokens as well. I would certainly not use Lingering Souls against Jund or Jeskai. You said it yourself, those types of decks are just going to out-class us after turn 5 anyway.
On this subject, I really feel that a 3rd Temur Battle Rage somewhere in the 75 is where I'm moving towards. And I've recently switched to Grim Flayer in the main over Ghor-Clan. As great as GCR is sometimes, I feel that Traversing for him (i.e. giving your opponent the inside scoop on your plan) takes away the surprise factor which is often how to you kill with TBR. They block incorrectly because they think you don't have the TBR (or GCR). I've used GCR to win before but always when I draw it naturally, never when I Traverse for it. And if thats the case, shouldn't it just be TBR for more dmg potential? Having a better threat density and potentially going up to 3x TBR post-board is what makes this deck shine over the GDS version. I might even try 2x Grim Flayer and drop Faithless Looting all together. I've had mixed feelings about my 17x land / 2x Looting setup recently.
Looks like none other than kanister himself is rocking good old Suicide Zoo to 5-0 finishes on MTGO. I remember him giving me a sound thrashing with this deck at a PPTQ back in the day.
I never played this archetype before GDS came along - can anyone offer me some valuable insight on what might have caused it to be the correct choice again?
I'm not sure what makes it the right deck to play in the MTGO meta. Maybe a little better against humans with the 4x TBR? I know this deck evolved into Shadow Jund after Gitaxian probe was banned in Modern (about a year and a half ago?)
It looks awfully similar to the new GB Infect decks that have been surfacing the online meta. I've definitely been feeling that my build could use a 3rd TBR and maybe his 5-0 finishing is another indicator of this. I rarely lose the game if I draw TBR
In my previous post I was implying to cut down To 3 colors only maindeck, which would suggest that manamorphos would also not be needed. Admittedly I still haven't tried a 4x Manamorphos 17x land build yet. I also can't seem to find any top 8 list in the last year running that configuration which leads me to question it's potency.
Regarding Grim Lavamancer out of the side board - is he really enough against humans? I mean if the case for Bolt > Tar is that 3 toughness matters, then how effective is Lavamancer vs let's say a 3-dmg sweeper? All they need is to slam a Lieutenant and it puts a ton of their creatures out of shock range.
The removal configuration I have right now is 3 Bolt, 2 Push, 2 Decay, 2 Dismember which feels pretty solid. I feel like I am in need of TBR more often than I actually draw it so I might try going up to 3x. Currently at 17 land with 1x Faithless and it's been helpful. Never short on land though I've had to keep some questionable 1-land openers (which ended up ok). Faithless flashback is super relevant in a drawn out game where you're holding only 1-2 blank cards and have plenty of land on the board already. It's a helpful way to pitch traverse also if delirium isn't realistically going to be enabled any time soon. If I was playing maindeck Snapcaster then I would try 2x Faithless but for now I'll stick with 1x
I'm also gonna try a 1 of Bedlam Reveler as the haymaker out of the board. Something I've always been interested in but never tried because I wanted the second U source bad enough to not have two R sources.
This seems like very interesting tech. I've play tested my list a ton over the last few days. More red-heavy seems to be the way to go. I've completely demoted blue to the sideboard and I've dropped white entirely. My local meta has very few fair mid-range decks so it doesn't make sense to waste those slots. For a PTQ or something I might board differently.
That being said, the double red requirement is a bit steep. If we commit to running only 3 colors game one, does it make sense to run 3 main board red sources? Something like 2 B-Crypt, 2 O-Tomb, 1 Stomping Ground?
There is of course a bit of a non-bo with Bedlam Reveler as our goal is to have many card types binned and he wants just inst/Sorc. I may try this and offer feedback next week. Right now my only utility traverse creature is Ghor-clan Rampager.
You guys have me sold on Bolt > Tarfire even though I haven't actually faced humans yet in order to try it.
What is e consensus on sweeper of choice out of the sideboard? Radiant flames? I think Anger of the Gods seems too red-intensive but I could be wrong.
Totally new to this archetype. Finally acquired the pieces to put this together (porting over from UBx Death's Shadow decks I've played for the last 2 years). I think Fatal Push is the main reason Grix Shadow is more popular than this version, but if you look at the competitive metagame, lists are running less and less FP. Even Jund and Grixis are running max 1-2 copies. So now I think is the time to switch over to this version. A few other questions I've had:
Tarfire over Architects of Will - doesn't it make more sense to use Tarfire? The flexibility of being a removal spell or a buff to your Shadow with the bonus of delirium fuel...vs only a cantrip that doubles down on delirium.
3 or 4 Traverse - what is the best number and why? And does it make sense to Max out your Traverse before including your first copy of Grim Flayer?
Kolaghan's Command - recently several pros have made a solid case for not including K-Command in the maindeck of Shadow variants. I guess this depends on your local meta?
Most of the lists I see placing on mtgtop8 include a maindeck Snapcaster. But I'm not seeing much love for Snappy in lists here in the thread. Thoughts?
Draft My Cube!
The Spirits match is definitely going to be problematic. The deck feels almost more dangerous than burn IMHO. I do have some match results from last week to share:
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Ghor-clan Rampager
Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Abrupt decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Tarfire
2 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Temur battle rage
2 Faithless Looting
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown tomb
2 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Lingering souls
1 Godless Shrine
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Watery grave
2 Collective Brutality
1 Radiant flames
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Ancient Grudge
Against UW Control - this match felt unwinnable. They just have too many answers and I'm not fast enough. Once I did get in for a win with some early threats, leaving me a 1-2 loss. I boarded in 10 cards, effectively transforming the deck which might have been a mistake. Stubborn Denial didn't seem very useful here.
Against Jeskai Control - even though I lost this one 0-2, the match-up felt a little better than UW. They have less counterspells so threats stuck more often. Burn isn't great against my threats but burn spells did kill me both games. Maybe boarding in an additional Temur battle rage could be good here. I didn't draw Stub this match but I did board it in game 2.
Overall I feel I just need to be more aggressive. No additional threats outside of Shadow and Goyf is a mistake. More delirium enablers also. LOTV was a bust in all three matches but I still feel she's useful in others. I will try to go down to 1x maindeck.
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Grim Flayer
1 Ghor-clan Rampager
Spells:
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Tarfire
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt decay
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping ground
1 Godless Shrine
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Lingering Souls
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Watery grave
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Radiant flames
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Temur Battle Rage
Draft My Cube!
Also, has anyone played against UWx Spirits? I played two matches against the deck and lost both 0-2. It seems like a watered down Humans deck but when everything has flying and even without Vial most things can be flashed in.
Draft My Cube!
Maybe I just haven't played against enough skilled Humans players (or I've been lucky) but I don't feel that the match-up is that bad. I would certainly much rather play against Humans than Jeskai control, which BTW has taken over as the top metagame presence for the last two months, according to mtgtop8.com
(so I guess maybe you're right in that Death's Shadow is not well positioned at the moment)
Draft My Cube!
Maybe those aren't the decks you want to bring Souls in against? I wouldn't board in Souls against a deck that has a better mid-game than I do. I bring it in against Infect, Affinity, & Spirits mainly. And it's pretty good against humans though I don't usually board it in. I can be very annoying for Hollow One to deal with 4x Spirit tokens as well. I would certainly not use Lingering Souls against Jund or Jeskai. You said it yourself, those types of decks are just going to out-class us after turn 5 anyway.
On this subject, I really feel that a 3rd Temur Battle Rage somewhere in the 75 is where I'm moving towards. And I've recently switched to Grim Flayer in the main over Ghor-Clan. As great as GCR is sometimes, I feel that Traversing for him (i.e. giving your opponent the inside scoop on your plan) takes away the surprise factor which is often how to you kill with TBR. They block incorrectly because they think you don't have the TBR (or GCR). I've used GCR to win before but always when I draw it naturally, never when I Traverse for it. And if thats the case, shouldn't it just be TBR for more dmg potential? Having a better threat density and potentially going up to 3x TBR post-board is what makes this deck shine over the GDS version. I might even try 2x Grim Flayer and drop Faithless Looting all together. I've had mixed feelings about my 17x land / 2x Looting setup recently.
4 Street Wraith
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
Spells (29)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Tarfire
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
2 Temur Battle Rage
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Watery Grave
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Temur Battle Rage
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Lingering Souls
1 Godless Shrine
3 Stubborn Denial
Playing this list at my local tomorrow and at an upcoming PTQ. Will get back with results
Draft My Cube!
I'm not sure what makes it the right deck to play in the MTGO meta. Maybe a little better against humans with the 4x TBR? I know this deck evolved into Shadow Jund after Gitaxian probe was banned in Modern (about a year and a half ago?)
It looks awfully similar to the new GB Infect decks that have been surfacing the online meta. I've definitely been feeling that my build could use a 3rd TBR and maybe his 5-0 finishing is another indicator of this. I rarely lose the game if I draw TBR
Draft My Cube!
Draft My Cube!
Regarding Grim Lavamancer out of the side board - is he really enough against humans? I mean if the case for Bolt > Tar is that 3 toughness matters, then how effective is Lavamancer vs let's say a 3-dmg sweeper? All they need is to slam a Lieutenant and it puts a ton of their creatures out of shock range.
The removal configuration I have right now is 3 Bolt, 2 Push, 2 Decay, 2 Dismember which feels pretty solid. I feel like I am in need of TBR more often than I actually draw it so I might try going up to 3x. Currently at 17 land with 1x Faithless and it's been helpful. Never short on land though I've had to keep some questionable 1-land openers (which ended up ok). Faithless flashback is super relevant in a drawn out game where you're holding only 1-2 blank cards and have plenty of land on the board already. It's a helpful way to pitch traverse also if delirium isn't realistically going to be enabled any time soon. If I was playing maindeck Snapcaster then I would try 2x Faithless but for now I'll stick with 1x
Draft My Cube!
This seems like very interesting tech. I've play tested my list a ton over the last few days. More red-heavy seems to be the way to go. I've completely demoted blue to the sideboard and I've dropped white entirely. My local meta has very few fair mid-range decks so it doesn't make sense to waste those slots. For a PTQ or something I might board differently.
That being said, the double red requirement is a bit steep. If we commit to running only 3 colors game one, does it make sense to run 3 main board red sources? Something like 2 B-Crypt, 2 O-Tomb, 1 Stomping Ground?
There is of course a bit of a non-bo with Bedlam Reveler as our goal is to have many card types binned and he wants just inst/Sorc. I may try this and offer feedback next week. Right now my only utility traverse creature is Ghor-clan Rampager.
You guys have me sold on Bolt > Tarfire even though I haven't actually faced humans yet in order to try it.
Draft My Cube!
Totally new to this archetype. Finally acquired the pieces to put this together (porting over from UBx Death's Shadow decks I've played for the last 2 years). I think Fatal Push is the main reason Grix Shadow is more popular than this version, but if you look at the competitive metagame, lists are running less and less FP. Even Jund and Grixis are running max 1-2 copies. So now I think is the time to switch over to this version. A few other questions I've had:
Tarfire over Architects of Will - doesn't it make more sense to use Tarfire? The flexibility of being a removal spell or a buff to your Shadow with the bonus of delirium fuel...vs only a cantrip that doubles down on delirium.
3 or 4 Traverse - what is the best number and why? And does it make sense to Max out your Traverse before including your first copy of Grim Flayer?
Kolaghan's Command - recently several pros have made a solid case for not including K-Command in the maindeck of Shadow variants. I guess this depends on your local meta?
Most of the lists I see placing on mtgtop8 include a maindeck Snapcaster. But I'm not seeing much love for Snappy in lists here in the thread. Thoughts?
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
1 Snapcaster mage
1 Ghor-clan rampager
Inst/Sorc
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
3 Traverse the Ulvenwald
2 Temur battle rage
2 Tarfire
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
2 Fatal Push
1 Kolaghan's Command
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Liliana of the Veil
Lands
4 Verdant catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Polluted Delta
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Watery grave
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Lingering souls
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fulminator mage
1 Radiant flames
2 Collective Brutality
1 Liliana, the last hope
Draft My Cube!