@kysg Budget discussion in competitive threats is against the forum rules. So I would advice reading through them before flaming like that:
Only discuss budget lists/card choices/ideas in the Budget subforum
Budget lists need to go in the Budget forum. Do not post a budget question in the main version of a deck. For instance, do not ask about budget replacements to Tarmogoyf in the Junk thread.
Users who post about budget lists, cards, or options outside of the Budget subforum will be warned/infracted accordingly.
My post was of course partially tongue-in-cheek, but over on the last page of the Tron thread, some of what seem to be their most dedicated players are talking up the Goyf sideboard plan. One of them links to this, wherein a streamer breaks down his build (including 3x Goyf out of the side). Both the streamer and the poster who linked his content seem to believe that Goyf shines most against BGx in general and BG Rock in particular (but yeah, it's gotta be great for them against Burn as well, among others).
I'm happy to leave it at that if this topic doesn't warrant further exploration; maybe it's only a flash in the pan. But treacherous Tarmogoyfs are definitely a possibility to be wary of when headed into post-side games against Tron, at least for the moment.
thanks for sharing that, this seems like a good thing to keep an eye on.
I have enjoyed her as a one of in my G/B rock list. Her plus ability works well with trackers. It could just be my desire to finally have a modern playable Vraska, but she seems good.
I've been running her in straight GB and been impressed. 1-2 is probably the right number. She is pretty bad in multiples. I've just used her +1 on excess lands and it has been fine. LotV into Vraska is great.
i often had problems against aggro decks like Humans because of the clunky hands with lot of 3cmc spells (Tracker, Liliana etc.)
I play my Bobs because of the early game which can be very tough if you don't draw your removal spells early.. in BG you don't have Bolts or Path beside Push, so your hand can be very clunky sometimes.. afterwards Tracker does his thing.. another good thing is that you don't miss your land drops which can be very important because of Scavenging Ooze, which helps you to come back after you got hit for some damage in the first few turns..
This problem is one of the consequences when people are simply replacing bob with tracker. It nicely shows that those cards aren't the same. I totally agree with that.
Life from the Loam is a grindy card which buys back FoR, Ghost Quarter and cycle lands to either draw more into the deck, destroy opposing lands or discard cards with raven's crime potentially.
Very interesting idea for grindy matchups indeed. But I think Loam seems more of a SB card for me, since there are a lot of matchups where its quite bad. But I really like the idea. Some manlands should also be played imo, I definitely second that, since Loam rebuying those represents in theory endless threats.
@ Flying Delver, have you thought about Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth as land 25? I really like the card in Rock's manabase.
Its an option, but you don't increase your green sources by that. In the 24 landbase you have 17 green sources, which is honestly too few if you want to run someting like Finks in the SB. Without it its fine though.
I think also that 3-4 trophies are the numbers you wanna be. I am gonna say GB Rock seems to lean more towards 4 copies wheras Jund leans more towards 3 copies. And I think this makes sense. Abzan is really the weakest version right now, especially since Anger of the Gods from Jund and the less painful manabase of rock are more relevant than a couple of souls. I think we can live without Stony. So its down to Rock and Jund for me personally.
Concerning Rock, I like the trackers, I think they are pretty stock now. The question for me is, whether we want Bob in addition or run Tasigurs. Also Nissa has been fantastic for grindy matchups, I also like her in Jund right now. I would play 1 copy in the side now.
My creature suite is a bit up in the air, but I still like something like:
4 Goyf
3 Bob
3 Ooze
4 Tracker
1 Kalitas
Or something similar. But tasigur is also appealing. Grim Flayer is another option, but I think I'd rather play Tasigurs or Bobs.
In my opinion the rock manabase are sometimes a bit too greedy. Maybe people forget it, but FoR does not really count as a coloured manasource in the early game. I think only a 25 landbase can run 4 FoR. A 24 landbase should only run 3 FoR.
4 Blooming, 4 Verdant, 2 Tomb, 4 Swamp and 2 Forest are fixed. So in order to get up to 18 black sources, one would need at least 4 Quagmire or run more black fetchlands. Running more than 2 Treetops seems overkill also. There is of course the option of Twilight Mire but I think since the Rock wants to run a couple of Damping Spheres, mire is just a nonbo and also very awkward with FoR in the opening hand.
I personally am opting for the folowing manabase (24 lands):
There might be a rapid uptick in rock, but itll die down. Trophy will not break the format. If anything, Trophy makes our good matchups a little bit worse but our bad matchups a little bit better. Trophy vs Storm or Burn is the worst feeling in the world. That being said, I still believe Traverse is the best version of this deck in modern.
This is true, but arguably the bad matchups will be improved more than the good matchups will get worse. Also you can adjust your trophy count to switch directions a bit (if Big mana is more prevalent, then run more trophies) and when storm is prevalent, run less. However, as it stands now, I would anyways not run more than 3 trophies, as you really don't want multiples except for tron only basically.
Kambal and Gaddock Teeg are houses because it demands answers. As a midrange deck, its a nice change of pace having our own piece of hate that requires interaction fron my opponent, not the other way around. KCI and storm cant combo through Teeg or Kambal. Theyve both been surprisingly very good and a really good reason to splash white.
Kci and storm also cant combo through a damping sphere. It also costs 2 mana and doesn't require white.
Teeg is strong vs combo, but no hard lock necessarily (storm can still combo through teeg with a bunch of rituals and grapeshot + remand for example, but its strong that PiF, Gifts and Empty is shut down) and he is also strong against control and impactful enough vs tron. So teeg is more versatile. Sphere is useless against control, but a hard lock against combo and arguably stronger in the big mana matchups. Thats pretty much the difference. Overall its a matter of how consistantly you can beat control imo. If control is not an issue without teeg, then I would absolutely play Sphere anytime, since its stronger for the big mana matchup.
Its basically based on the most recent Rock version which you do find online, but with a view twists. First of I made the manabase consistant, which is very important imo. When you play 3 FoR and 24 lands, you need at least 3 Quagmires to have a minimum of 18 black sources.
I don't like the 4/1 split of LoTV and LtLH because I find LoTV underwhelming. I am not interesting in more than 3 copies of her at the moment, but am particularly interested in LtLH in Rock since Rock does not have cards like Souls to fight go-wide strategies well. LtLH can surely help here.
The rest is pretty obvious mainboardwise. A few flex slots are still there, not sure about Kalitas and Pulse for example. Could also see a singleton Cast Down instead of Pulse.
The SB is a bit messy, but it contains a lot of cards I want to test right now. How good is surgical with trophy. How good is choke against UW. Does Damping Sphere and the mainboard FoR and trophy really improve the Tron matchup significantly. Does Darkblast really help to keep up with the removal against small creature decks. Nissa also seems like a respectable bomb which I really am eager to try in the mirror or against control.
What non dark confidant does people run for card advantage? I do not like the 'race' part of dark c. With assa t. we have much better staying power. Are tasigurs back in style? Are there anu other card advantages I am missing? Lilliana the last hope? Grim flayers for selection?
You talking about Abzan or Rock?
LtLH is a staple in the deck and imo should be a 2 of in the 75. Common is a 1-1 split between main and side but I also like 2 main personally.
Tasigur can be run if you don't run bobs, but I think Bobs are still great.
Abzan and Rock usually plays Tireless Tracker as a similar card like BBE in Jund. This is a staple as of now. Its an endgame creature for max grind. You can play bob alongside it or not. You can run Flayer over Bob but it usually requires some help and its very unreliable. Sometimes you can see 2 supporting copies to round out the creature base also.
@DeFish Its definitely a big downgrad manland-wise from treetop to quagmire, given that treetop is the best GBx manland probably. Its a pity, maybe in the future we see a new cycle of those manlands which provides an upgrade. You can also make a compromize by going down to 2 Treetops as well as 3 FoR and add acouple of more black sources. If you get to say 17, its still too few, but it would be a good compromise in theory.
I understand the concern about black sources, but treetop improves the UW control matchup, planeswalkers in general and Lingering souls that I believe is worth it. What do you think about Garruk Relentless? This was a Dark confidant, just like Majors' list but I did not see it enough early game to make an impact.
Its not only the black sources, its the green ones as well. By running 4 FoR and 4 Swamps you naturally play 16 green sources only in a 24 landbase. I think 4 FoR might be too greedy overall probably. I would go for 3 copies due to that. I personally would want at least 17 clean sources of both colours. Like for black you run 4 Lilis, 1 Bontus, 1 Damnation, 1 Languish and 1 Kalitas in your 75 with only 15 black sources. However, which should be added, the FoR could potentially be added as black/green sources when it comes down to CMC 4 cards, since you can FoR on turn 3 to get a basic. However, its definitely not a clean colour source. Twilight Mire does also seem very unrealiable alongside 4 FoR for me. Opening hands which have perfect spells but contain only 1 FoR and 1 Mire feel very bad to mulligan. And in addition you run 2 Damping Sphere in your SB, which is an additional nonbo. I would cut it for that reasons.
I really like Nissa in the SB, I think I will also run her in my version. Not sure about Garruk. 4 Mana for a PW which does not uptick right away and only has 3 loyality seems quite low impact. Like you pretty much can only make a token when you play him since you don't want to trade him for a 3 power creature.
thanks for sharing that, this seems like a good thing to keep an eye on.
Maindeck or side?
This problem is one of the consequences when people are simply replacing bob with tracker. It nicely shows that those cards aren't the same. I totally agree with that.
Its an option, but you don't increase your green sources by that. In the 24 landbase you have 17 green sources, which is honestly too few if you want to run someting like Finks in the SB. Without it its fine though.
Concerning Rock, I like the trackers, I think they are pretty stock now. The question for me is, whether we want Bob in addition or run Tasigurs. Also Nissa has been fantastic for grindy matchups, I also like her in Jund right now. I would play 1 copy in the side now.
My creature suite is a bit up in the air, but I still like something like:
4 Goyf
3 Bob
3 Ooze
4 Tracker
1 Kalitas
Or something similar. But tasigur is also appealing. Grim Flayer is another option, but I think I'd rather play Tasigurs or Bobs.
In my opinion the rock manabase are sometimes a bit too greedy. Maybe people forget it, but FoR does not really count as a coloured manasource in the early game. I think only a 25 landbase can run 4 FoR. A 24 landbase should only run 3 FoR.
4 Blooming, 4 Verdant, 2 Tomb, 4 Swamp and 2 Forest are fixed. So in order to get up to 18 black sources, one would need at least 4 Quagmire or run more black fetchlands. Running more than 2 Treetops seems overkill also. There is of course the option of Twilight Mire but I think since the Rock wants to run a couple of Damping Spheres, mire is just a nonbo and also very awkward with FoR in the opening hand.
I personally am opting for the folowing manabase (24 lands):
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Hissing Quagmire
3 Field of Ruin
1 Treetop Village
The 25th land would be the third Quagmire for me personally.
This is true, but arguably the bad matchups will be improved more than the good matchups will get worse. Also you can adjust your trophy count to switch directions a bit (if Big mana is more prevalent, then run more trophies) and when storm is prevalent, run less. However, as it stands now, I would anyways not run more than 3 trophies, as you really don't want multiples except for tron only basically.
Teeg is strong vs combo, but no hard lock necessarily (storm can still combo through teeg with a bunch of rituals and grapeshot + remand for example, but its strong that PiF, Gifts and Empty is shut down) and he is also strong against control and impactful enough vs tron. So teeg is more versatile. Sphere is useless against control, but a hard lock against combo and arguably stronger in the big mana matchups. Thats pretty much the difference. Overall its a matter of how consistantly you can beat control imo. If control is not an issue without teeg, then I would absolutely play Sphere anytime, since its stronger for the big mana matchup.
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Blooming Marsh
3 Field of Ruin
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Swamp
2 Forest
3 Hissing Quagmire
1 Treetop Village
Creatures [15]
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Collective Brutality
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Damping Sphere
1 Choke
1 Collective Brutality
1 Duress
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Damnation
1 Darkblast
1 Nissa, Vital Force
Its basically based on the most recent Rock version which you do find online, but with a view twists. First of I made the manabase consistant, which is very important imo. When you play 3 FoR and 24 lands, you need at least 3 Quagmires to have a minimum of 18 black sources.
I don't like the 4/1 split of LoTV and LtLH because I find LoTV underwhelming. I am not interesting in more than 3 copies of her at the moment, but am particularly interested in LtLH in Rock since Rock does not have cards like Souls to fight go-wide strategies well. LtLH can surely help here.
The rest is pretty obvious mainboardwise. A few flex slots are still there, not sure about Kalitas and Pulse for example. Could also see a singleton Cast Down instead of Pulse.
The SB is a bit messy, but it contains a lot of cards I want to test right now. How good is surgical with trophy. How good is choke against UW. Does Damping Sphere and the mainboard FoR and trophy really improve the Tron matchup significantly. Does Darkblast really help to keep up with the removal against small creature decks. Nissa also seems like a respectable bomb which I really am eager to try in the mirror or against control.
You talking about Abzan or Rock?
LtLH is a staple in the deck and imo should be a 2 of in the 75. Common is a 1-1 split between main and side but I also like 2 main personally.
Tasigur can be run if you don't run bobs, but I think Bobs are still great.
Abzan and Rock usually plays Tireless Tracker as a similar card like BBE in Jund. This is a staple as of now. Its an endgame creature for max grind. You can play bob alongside it or not. You can run Flayer over Bob but it usually requires some help and its very unreliable. Sometimes you can see 2 supporting copies to round out the creature base also.
Something like:
3 FoR
4 swamp
2 Forest
2 Treetop
1 Quagmire
4 verdant
2 Delta
4 Marsh
2 Tomb
The second delta can also be a second quagmire or a twilight mire, which I think is a little dicey though with FoR, as you mentioned as well.
By making these changes, you also increase the green sources from 16 to 17, which is also important for casting Finks out of the board.
Its not only the black sources, its the green ones as well. By running 4 FoR and 4 Swamps you naturally play 16 green sources only in a 24 landbase. I think 4 FoR might be too greedy overall probably. I would go for 3 copies due to that. I personally would want at least 17 clean sources of both colours. Like for black you run 4 Lilis, 1 Bontus, 1 Damnation, 1 Languish and 1 Kalitas in your 75 with only 15 black sources. However, which should be added, the FoR could potentially be added as black/green sources when it comes down to CMC 4 cards, since you can FoR on turn 3 to get a basic. However, its definitely not a clean colour source. Twilight Mire does also seem very unrealiable alongside 4 FoR for me. Opening hands which have perfect spells but contain only 1 FoR and 1 Mire feel very bad to mulligan. And in addition you run 2 Damping Sphere in your SB, which is an additional nonbo. I would cut it for that reasons.
I really like Nissa in the SB, I think I will also run her in my version. Not sure about Garruk. 4 Mana for a PW which does not uptick right away and only has 3 loyality seems quite low impact. Like you pretty much can only make a token when you play him since you don't want to trade him for a 3 power creature.