"What if every colorless mana had its own symbol?"
I totally understand the confusion of the 1 symbol and it probably should be changed. I just wonder why wizards would chose to fix such an old problem now instead of 15 years ago? I kinda feel like at this point they have made their bed and now need to lie in it. I doubt they are going to errata hundreds of cards but I could be wrong. Its definately possible.
Anyway I kinda feel like we have hi-jacked Solrunes thread (sorry dude). We'll find out when we find out.
"6th colour in that <> casting costs will require <> mana" That's what I've said several times now.
I think it's plausible that diamond is equivalent to 1 colorless, meaning Sol Ring says T: add diamond diamond. Doing so would not actually be anything new other than giving a symbol to "1 colorless mana", and getting rid of the confusing fact that {1} in a mana cost is absolutely not the same thing as {1} in rules text. The former is generic mana of any type and the latter is 1 colorless mana.
I understand you're opinion but I'm saying I don't think solring will change from 2 to <><>. It will still generate generic mana that can't be used to pay for <> costs.
To each his own. I personally think its going to act just like a 6th colour in that <> casting costs will require <> mana and 1 will not be able to pay for <> costs. That being said I think the mana will be considered colourless and mono <> nonartifact cards will be able to target Pristine Angel.
If it turns out that diamond means "1 colorless mana" then it is necessarily true that Sol Ring taps for diamond diamond, because it already taps for 2 colorless mana. It's just that they haven't had a need to distinguish between the fact that {1} in a mana cost is generic and {1} in rules text is colorless.
It would be strange if diamond is any color, because {1} in a mana cost already means "pay for this with any kind of mana".
The reason to make diamond producing lands and diamond mana costs is to explore colorless as a color. At that point, you can ask the question "if a deck has to conform to producing colorless mana, what can colorless do?" Anything from Mono-white to 5 color can play Wurmcoil Engine or Karn, but that's not the case for this new Kozilek(assuming it's real). You can then make a card more powerful simply because it costs colored (actually colorless) mana. Lightning Bolt is a strong card, but it requires you to play Red. If it cost {1}, every deck in Modern would play 4 of them. Perhaps Wurmcoil Engine could have cost 3DD, had the distinction between colorless and generic existed at the time.
Unless there is a mass errata like you suggestedthen there is no reason for wastes not to simply generate 1. For all intents and purposes 1 would suffice to pay the <> mana requirement.
I don't think it would require reminder text. There's no reminder text on Lightning Bolt that says "R has to be paid for with R". I think Command has it right: {1} is generic mana and can be paid for with WUBRG or {1}, diamond is colorless and cannot pay for WUBRG but can pay for diamond or {1}. It's basically a 6th color that has no color. It will certainly require a new rule to define what diamond is, though. It will be interesting to see whether they mass-errata colorless lands to diamond (and then use it in the future) or whether diamond is a parasitic concept that exists only in Oath.
I saw something pointing out that a few months ago WOTC changed their tag for Chaos from {C} to {CHAOS}, which suggests that the tag for diamond is {C} (ie. colorless).
All I'm saying is if <> is treated the same way is then there would likely be reminder text on the cards like Scrying Sheets has. If <> means it requires colourless mana then why don't Wastes simply produce 1? Why the new symbol? I think <> will be treated more like a 6th colour rather then a colourless requirement meaning we may not be able to play them in Marchesa.
It kind of sounds like you're arguing but from my perspective you guys are actually agreeing
Idk how it will shake out but if it is a sort of 6th color I do think Mirrorpool and Kozilek, the Great Distortion are sound arguments against the mass errata. If {1} = <>, then why does new Kozi have {8} and <><> in its cost? Isn't that just {10}? And why are mirrorpool's activated abilities costed like that?
How about an alternative idea? <> is actually any color, as in the eldrazi indiscriminately feast on mana and resources and do not care which particular type. Therefore <> can be paid with WUBRG<> but not {1} and <> can pay for <> or {1}. Thus essentially making <> all colors without actually being any color. That would keep it from being a parasitic concept and not break how fundamental concepts like "generic mana is worse than colored mana".
Ooooooh Damn, that would be sweet athough I feel like there would be reminder text explaining that <> works that way. You wouldn't be able to cast new Kosilek with an infinite mana combo that uses only colourless mana
@Elcon- its possable but I highly doubt they are going to Mass Eratta all lands that generate 1 into <>
I don't think it would require reminder text. There's no reminder text on Lightning Bolt that says "R has to be paid for with R". I think Command has it right: {1} is generic mana and can be paid for with WUBRG or {1}, diamond is colorless and cannot pay for WUBRG but can pay for diamond or {1}. It's basically a 6th color that has no color. It will certainly require a new rule to define what diamond is, though. It will be interesting to see whether they mass-errata colorless lands to diamond (and then use it in the future) or whether diamond is a parasitic concept that exists only in Oath.
I saw something pointing out that a few months ago WOTC changed their tag for Chaos from {C} to {CHAOS}, which suggests that the tag for diamond is {C} (ie. colorless).
All I'm saying is if <> is treated the same way is then there would likely be reminder text on the cards like Scrying Sheets has. If <> means it requires colourless mana then why doesn't Waiste simply produce 1? Why the new symbol? I think it will be treated more like a 6th colour then a colourless requirement.
The new symbol is because there's a difference between {1} and {colorless}. Damnation costs 2BB, which means you need 2 black and 2 of anything, WUBRG or colorless would work, because the 2 doesn't mean colorless but rather "generic".
The new symbol is because they are distinguishing between the color "colorless" and "generic" mana. It allows them to explore a space where you have to make an effort at being colorless in your manabase in order to play the new Kozilek, or any other card that requires colorless mana, because the mana cost isn't just generic and therefore playable via using any color you like. There's no reminder text that R has to be paid for with R, so there is no reason to require reminder text that says diamond requires diamond, there would instead be a new rule stating what diamond means. It's likely that diamond means "1 mana with the color colorless". It absolutely looks like a 6th color that has no color.
<> makes perfect sense as a casting cost but there is 0 reason for wastes to not simply make 1. It would simply be for flavor which seems unlikely to me considering the ammount of confusion its caused.
There's no reminder text that R has to be paid for with R, so there is no reason to require reminder text that says diamond requires diamond, there would instead be a new rule stating what diamond means.
This is why I think <> costs will require <> specific mana and not just 1
I don't think it would require reminder text. There's no reminder text on Lightning Bolt that says "R has to be paid for with R". I think Command has it right: {1} is generic mana and can be paid for with WUBRG or {1}, diamond is colorless and cannot pay for WUBRG but can pay for diamond or {1}. It's basically a 6th color that has no color. It will certainly require a new rule to define what diamond is, though. It will be interesting to see whether they mass-errata colorless lands to diamond (and then use it in the future) or whether diamond is a parasitic concept that exists only in Oath.
I saw something pointing out that a few months ago WOTC changed their tag for Chaos from {C} to {CHAOS}, which suggests that the tag for diamond is {C} (ie. colorless).
All I'm saying is if <> is treated the same way is then there would likely be reminder text on the cards like Scrying Sheets has. If <> means it requires colourless mana then why don't Wastes simply produce 1? Why the new symbol? I think <> will be treated more like a 6th colour rather then a colourless requirement meaning we might not be able to play them in Marchesa. They likely will be considered colourless just like snow mana is but there is a chance it will be considered a new colour as well.
I'm pretty sure that symbol is just the newly established way to display actual colorless mana. The "colorless" mana costs in cards is actually generic mana, meaning mana of any color. This new symbol could be a way to actually require colorless mana. So mana rocks and stripe mine would be producing <>
That's exactly what I'm hoping. If that is the way the symbol works that land is definitely in. ETB tapped and only taps for colorless is a strong cost in this kind of deck but for a land that can clone a spell or creature it seems worth it.
I think if thats how it worked there would be some rules text on the card to explan how it works kinda like how the phyrexian and snow symbols do.
I'm not sure if we can use Mirrorpool. You know how we can't use any card with a G or W symbol on it? I wonder if we can legally use any of the new waste coloured cards in an edh deck without the waste mana symbol in the generals colour identity.
After looking more closely at Solrunes list I noticed he also runs a ton of 4 drops so you might be ok. I would however cut Avalanche Riders because it seems underwhelming to me in a multiplayer meta.
@Paragonweapon- Wurmcoil Engine and Kokusho (really anything that gains you life) are probably a bad idea in Marchesa because you never want to be "on the throne". Your ammount of 4 costs seems a bit high and maybe consider some more 2 drops.
Is it weird that I'm tempted to cut Phyrexian Arena for Corpse Augur?
No, it makes perfect sense to me. I'm trying to figure out what to cut for him as well. I'm thinking of just losing my last 5 drop. The arena's 1 card a turn seems underwhelming compared to the other card draw engines used in Marchesa.
Say what you want about Thief of Blood but it doesn't scare me one bit. Sure its great against Marchesa but there exactly 2 cards in my entire Teysa deck that it messes with. I think that most edh decks at least the ones I play against don't have much more. I certainly won't be using it in any of my decks. I'd rather use something that actually synergises with my strategy. There are far more powerful 6 drops out there that deserve a slot over this guy.
Anyway I kinda feel like we have hi-jacked Solrunes thread (sorry dude). We'll find out when we find out.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
@Elcon- its possable but I highly doubt they are going to Mass Eratta all lands that generate 1 into <>
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
This is why I think <> costs will require <> specific mana and not just 1
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
All I'm saying is if <> is treated the same way is then there would likely be reminder text on the cards like Scrying Sheets has. If <> means it requires colourless mana then why don't Wastes simply produce 1? Why the new symbol? I think <> will be treated more like a 6th colour rather then a colourless requirement meaning we might not be able to play them in Marchesa. They likely will be considered colourless just like snow mana is but there is a chance it will be considered a new colour as well.
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
The 6 drops I would replace with cheaper cards because you really don't want more then 4 or 5.
Cards you could consider:
- Oona's Blackguard
- Pain Seer
- Sage of Hours
- Fulminator Mage
- Burnished Heart
- Necroplasm
After looking more closely at Solrunes list I noticed he also runs a ton of 4 drops so you might be ok. I would however cut Avalanche Riders because it seems underwhelming to me in a multiplayer meta.BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)
BChainer, Dementia Master(Big Mana/Reanimator)
BRRakdos, The Showstopper (Mass Life Loss/Ramp)
BUThe Scarab God (Zombie Tribal/Control)
BWKarlov of the Ghost Council (Life Gain)
BGJarad, Golgari Lich Lord (Stompy/Dredge)
BRGProssh, Skyraider of Kher (Tokens/Non-infinite Combo)