Declaration in Stone hits tokens your opponents control and doesn't give them clues. ;-) it gives us a way to clear token (no matter the size or type). Compare that to EE which hits our things as well. With the potential for Thopter Tokens to be running around everywhere, it gives us a way to clear them for minimal cost.
Good point about not giving Clues for tokens, I overlooked that. Still, I think I'll stick with EE so I can hit, say: Ravager, Overseer, Skirge, and Plating all at once; take care of the Bogle or at least several of its enchantments; uncounterably destroy Glistener Elves and Hierarchs at one blow; or wipe out multiple Merfolk lords, Silvergill Adept, and Spreading Seas. I'll get opponent's tokens just as fast using EE and I play around my other board wipes regularly so I'm not too worried about hitting Spirits or Scions. Just my $.02.
I agree with you that EE still has a place but it is another option if we should need it. I was reading an article about Archangel Avacyn and it reminded me that we can actually trigger her flip pretty easily and without going out of our way. (We just need to sacrifice a Scion token to do so). I'm not 100% convinced but she could be pretty good out of the SB in some matchups.
Oh, I agree, the Herder/Smasher comment was revealing. They play different roles. Oblivion Sower is not a good choice anymore in my opinion (nor are the other 6-drops), though an 8 butt is pretty strong. Lists that do run Sower would benefit from Urborg as a minimum 2-of to get use out of off-color fetches. Lists that do play Sower might make use of Conduit of Ruin and Ulamog.
I played Ulamog no more than one game in eight, I would guess, and sided it out more than any other card. It served an important function, but I didn't cast it very often, and I sure hated seeing it in my opener.
I am not really feeling Declaration in Stone. Maybe someone could explain it to me? Exiling for 2 CMC is good, but it is sorcery speed. How often is it likely to hit non-token multiples? Seems like that would be pretty rare. Engineered Explosives is much more versatile. And every card Declaration exiles replaces itself for 2.
Declaration in Stone hits tokens your opponents control and doesn't give them clues. ;-) it gives us a way to clear token (no matter the size or type). Compare that to EE which hits our things as well. With the potential for Thopter Tokens to be running around everywhere, it gives us a way to clear them for minimal cost.
Edit: The thing to everyone about Abbey.. it's not just about flipping it. It gives you a late game mana sink as well. Just keep popping out 1/1 tokens at EOT like it's your own personal Bitterblossom. Let them win you the game. Occasionally you can flip him if you need the flying or lifelink.
It's also written by someone who never saw post-OGW BW Eldrazi lists because he says "why cast Blight Herder when you can cast Reality Smasher" ignoring that most lists ran both. It also alluded to us still running Oblivion Sower which I had cut from my list a while ago and even more so now that Eye is gone. He further stated that he never thought it was any good to begin with, which is patently false. This list was very good (probably mid-high tier 2 range for non-Eye games which is what we have to go off of). We are a deck that will be able to out grind GBx decks while still being able to have a semi-favorable control matchup based on how many Caverns we want to run (not to mention Blight Herder's cast trigger). If the meta slows down even a little we could easily find an opening to succeed. Add on top of all that we got new toys like Westvale Abbey, Anguished Unmaking and Declaration in Stone that could give us more versatile removal for things that ailed us before (From Blood Moon to Liliana to Ensnaring Bridge). We lost our ultimate top end of tutor for Ulamog but I think that is something we can get over.
I have thought about adding Red as well. Side note, if you are splashing red.. You'll want Slaughter Games instead of Memorcide. I have been playing a Mardu deck lately and that card does a TON of work (especially in the control mirror where I need answers to counterspells.. we care less about that here). I don't know how I feel about that many fetches though (that become pseudo necessary with that many colors). I still loved my old list that didn't require fetch lands at all.
I don't think I have seen this brought up. But with SoTM and Foundry, I expect to see black decks playing "Illness in the Ranks"to combat the thopters. Its a card that could be sided in against us as well.But it is also a card we could side in if Foundry becomes more prevalent. What's everyone else's thought on the card? Is it something to be concerned about?
If black decks are prevelant.. we likely increase the number of Celestial Purges. The card doesn't feel good to run into but I think it's handleable. The fact we still have 5/5 Tramplers, 4/5's and 4/4's means we are less reliant on our tokens surviving (which is why I flash back Lingering Souls immediately more in this deck than really any other). Worst case Memorcide it out of their hand.
cards worth considering: Matter reshaper, tidehollow sculler, warping wail. I love warping wail in standard and I think it could find home also in modern
With warping wail it really depends... if Wrath of God effects are running around in everyone's decks (and Crumble to Dust) then it's great. If it's only Supreme Verdict in UWx control shells.. I think it loses a lot of it's value for us.
I think the TKS/Smasher/Herder package works really well. It does not feel to me like the curve is too high, though I can see how some might think it looks that way. Because I had Eye as only a 2-of it did not greatly depower my build to lose it, and in fact having it gone makes the 1-3 mana spells easier to cast.
Urborg should maybe go for a second Swamp or a Fetid Heath. With my list I have only 11 T1 B, but 14 T2 B, and 13 T2 W and C. I frequently spend T1 on a Vent, or getting a shock land on the ground with minimal lifeloss.
One of the things I like about this deck is the easy color requirements. With 9 colorless lands in my version, Tidehollow Sculler will be difficult to cast reliably and will increase mulligans. I like it with Strangler but it does stretch the mana base, and probably makes Fetid Heath mandatory as at least a one-of. Just my $.02.
I completely agree with this. I actually had gone all the way down to a 1x Eye when I took my BW list to regionals. I also had a lot of things splashed in that did a lot of work (like Batterskull). We also got a few more good removal spells in Declaration in Stone and Anguished Unmaking. I totally think we are really flexible to whatever meta we find ourselves in. I do think I am going to add some number of Seagate Wreckages to the list to give me some card draw if I get into a topdeck war. This is one of the things I actually like about Westvale Abbey as well. Worst case it becomes a non-flier Bitterblossom late game and can then flip to crack in for a ton.
Isn't it going to be too hard to cast the 5-drops with only 4 Sol lands instead of 6? I'm a little worried that the curves people are posting are too high.
I was just about to ask this. We have 2/3rds as many Sol lands as we used to have yet we're running several times as many 4+ drops as other midrange decks (specifically BGx)are running. The list I'm tweaking has 4 Thought-Knot Seer but only five 5 drops (2-3 split between Smasher and Herder) and I can't see running any more than that. I think we need to be like Pascal Maynard and import some creatures from Death and Taxes lists.
While I understand the initial reservations... I can say I had no problem casting these 5 CMC creatures in many games before without Eye or Temple in play. Our curve now essentially eliminates Ulamog and Oblivion Sowers (who are not too expensive IMO to play) and makes Blight Herder and Reality Smasher our wincons (I think the correct split/choice is part preference and part meta... I expect to see a lot of control in my meta because it's already been creeping up so I'll use Blight Herder as the primary.)
Would eldrazi displacer be a good fit in this deck even though it's within bolt range since it provides value by itself and with wasteland Strangler and thought knot seer if it doesn't die
I say no. It was good enough before as a pseudo 1cmc creature but a 3cmc creature that requires you to have mana open when you play it doesn't seem like where we want to be at. Focus the early turns on turning on processors/stopping opponents gameplan if they are aggro. Then curve into a threat like Blight Herder and sit on it til someone removes it. I suspect we will see a lot more board clears like Supreme Verdict and Damnation coming up soon so we won't be able to over extend as much as before. Thankfully Westvale Abbey is a good new toy that can help us against any non-PTE type deck.
I will be adding 3 Westvale Abbey in place of the 3 Eyes I just lost. Seems like a great addition with all the scions we can make.
I am thinking of adding it just as a one-of and putting 2 Expedition Map back in to find Temple/Vault/GQ/Westvale/Urborg more reliably.
Westvale looks pretty nice with Lingering Souls and Herder.
I sold out during the price spike the week before the GPs and will now buy back in with the core pieces dropped in value. (Granted I still have most of it). I got to play westvale abbey a lot this weekend (played it in 2/3 prerelease events). The card is a monster and I think we totally benefit by having it. I am kind of thinking of adding bitterblossom to the list as well. Gives us early game chump blockers, can end the game on their own, gives us more sacrifice fodder for Abbey as well. I'm so glad we kept temple. I seriously thought they'd panic and ax it. Super happy because this deck was a ton of fun to play (and im looking forward to eating some visions)
Well guys, the ride has been fun while it lasted but I got a crazy good offer and decided to sell this deck off today. I really wish the aggro variant hadn't come along and ruined the fun we were having. I will still be around (moving to Abzan Company) and may occasionally pop my head in and give opinions on things and will still keep an eye on the deck. All in all, it's been a wild ride. See yall around.
Hi there! I'm very interested to this version of Eldrazi and during the test i was thinking about "hardcasting" the processors. So i have a question for you: depending on board situation etc, would you cast a processor like Strangler or Herder without process nothing? if you have the possibility to cast Herder on 3rd turn (thanks to temple+eye), you cast it, or wait for exiled cards to "optimize" it? (same speech for the strangler)
Depends entirely on the situation. I have cast Blight Herders and Stranglers for no additional value. Stranglers usually stay in for me against control decks just to be 3/2 beat sticks that they have to waste removal killing. (occasionally they kill Snaps and things but its rare). It's very easy to turn them on though.
Thanks. Honestly, I feel like Rest for the Weary is better than timely reinforcements for our needs. It's one less mana, unconditional, and gains an extra 2 life. Of course tokens are valuable, but they too are conditional and we have lingering souls running around to make a lot of chump blockers as it is.
It's really a preference call. I like having the 3 1/1 bodies as well because of matchups like Zoo which are running around my meta. Gaining 8 life doesn't do you a lot of good when they have at least 8 power on board. Gaining 6 life and getting 3 bodies can be big (not to mention they play really well with a follow up Sorin or Vault of the Archangel). Also, my list doesn't run fetches which makes Rest for the Weary worse.
Ok quick tournament report from FNM (from what I can remember from the long weekend) 63 people:
Round 1 UR Eldrazi (0-2)[0-1]:
Game 1 he had magic christmas (eye, temple x2, TKS and Smasher). I had a bit of a slower hand and got murdered pretty quick. Game 2 I stripped away his TKS and unless he topdecked a Temple, I'd TKS his Reality Smasher and he'd have been out of relevant gas. He topdecked the Temple and started in with reality smasher. Next turn he over extended more gas from hand. I cleared the board with Damnation. We were now in topdeck wars... he topdecked Vile Aggregate into Drowner of Hope while I hit 2 lands.. gg.
Round 2 Maze Turbo Fog (2-0)[1-1]:
I am a firm believer in tough love. You aren't going to learn competitive magic unless you get your butt kicked. This doesn't mean I nitpick on rules and such at FNMs but that does mean I show no mercy when it comes to making plays. This is one of the few instances where my spikiness made me feel a little bad. Very little kid playing Modern for his first time. Game 1 I see he is on Turbo Fog with Maze's End as his wincon. I manage to strip enough Fog Effects out of his hand and kill him eventually. We move to game 2 and I sideboard. Here was how our game 2 went. He mulliganed down to 6. Keep, scry to the bottom. He plays a Selesnya Guild Gate tapped and passes the turn. I draw and play Ghost Quarter. I GQ the Guild Gate. He fails to find a basic. I then pay 2 life and cast Surgical Extraction on the gate.... He reads the card and responds, "But now I can't win". I'm not going to lie I felt a little bad and the rest of the table (upon hearing the events unfold) were in equal shock and awe how cold blooded I was in dismantling him. I feel like it's still the right thing to do (and polled a bunch of other folks including our Head Judge to see what he'd have done) and most said they'd probably do something similar. What about yall? Would you guys kill his wincon turn 1? Would you not have brought in Surgical Extraction and just tried to kill him normally? Would you have held the Surgical and only used it when he was about to win?
Round 3 Grixis Delver (2-0) [2-1]:
I can't remember these specific games but I was playing against a former Twin player who had just picked up Delver. I won the first game on the back of TKS and Whip of Erebos. Making him Terminate in response to trigger, yanking his best card from hand twice game 1 and then whipping them back to keep him with jank in hand (plus playing a Blight Herder) completely wrecked him. I think Game 2 wasn't much of a contest, I don't remember though. I sat with the guy and walked him through a few mistakes I remember him doing (as well as little idiosyncrasies of playing Delver that he may not have been aware of).
Round 4 Zoo (1-2) [2-2]:
Game 1 he curved out for the turn 3 kill, not much I could have done differently but with New Bushwacker.. this deck is crazy fast. Game 2 I stabilized and eventually equipped Batterskull to Blight Herder. Apparently Zoo doesn't have any answers to 8/9 vigilance lifelinkers. Game 3 He had another nutish draw and killed me Turn 3. It happens... oh well
I got to play more against the new Eldrazi decks between rounds. I still it's going to be a bad matchup going forward against any of the aggro variants. I've gotten to the point where I am going to treat it like I was treating Scapeshift and Tron. If I lose to it, whatever. If I can steal a win from it, great. I am going to focus my efforts on beating the rest of the field that is praying on the Aggrodrazi decks. Anyway, I do like Bitterblossum and might try it in place of a Lingering Souls. It performs a similar role as well.
I have still been totally sold on Batterskull and Whip of Erebos in conjunction with Sorin and Vault to increase our total lifelink mainboard. Because Sorin and Whip are subject to the Legend rule, I don't want to increase beyond 1. My favorite part of having all the 1x in the deck is you REALLY catch opponents off-guard. Against Zoo he stated he didn't bring in Artifact hate game 2 because he didn't care about Relic or Map. When he saw Batterskull he said he about shat himself as he knew he had virtually no answer for it and had to hope on chaining multiple Atarka Commands to possibly kill me. Essentially I took slots like the 1x Oblivion Sower and turned it into a 5 CMC 4/4 Lifelinker with upside threat. Whip was a trial that has felt good enough so far. It is awkward at times but when you get the engine running.. it feels amazing.
Kalitas is another good option which I do like. It is better against Burn than Whip because it gifts you a body as well. It also gives you a route around Artifact hate which seems nice. I do love the recursion off Whip though.
Great play report. thanks. Did you ever run into Relic nonbo-ing with Whip? Have enough exile for your Herders when you wanted them?
Not really. The key difference is now you don't want to crack them whenever but I still kept Goyfs to 1/2's because I'd keep just a creature in my yard and nothing in my opponents. It all depends on the matchup really. For me it's more like Whip is just another 4 drop lifelink outlet and has the added upside of recurring my dudes lategame.
I like your list a lot. What do you think about dropping 1 souls for smasher #4?
Also had any chances to play against the colorless or UR version? I still would love to have sowers for the colorless deck, and other midrange matchups but you are showing those are not needed. What are you thoughts about worship/prison vs leyline?
Personally Lingering Souls is my favorite card in Modern and besides that, it just makes so many matchups good. I haven't been hankering for Smasher #4 though. Smasher #3 seemed vital (because there were games where the first 2 get killed and I could tutor up a 3rd to win but I didn't have it. I think if Eye goes away, I'd take out Ulamog for it.
I think Sower is completely not needed. I haven't played the matchup a ton but I found my best chance was to kill/TS Reality Smasher and then Surgical it away. From there if I get to a lifelink outlet, I typically win (which is why I increased the quantity). Essentially I am mainly worried about trample. (Batterskull does a ton of work against both variants as well. Equip it to any dude and they can't get past it. Against the UR version just put it on a Souls token and troll your way to victory.
I like Worship and it might be worth the add if you own one. Personally it's cost is too crazy for me to consider it right now. Leyline puts in a lot of work as well. Pretty much if they can't trample over, you trade and stall the game until they are in top deck mode and that is when your lifelink sources and deck will win the game out.
Ok guys i got another tournament result for you. I made a couple additions to the decklist and they all came up big in different situations. I am not changing to be more like the aggro variants. I am making changes to play against them (and the other aggro decks) while still giving myself the grindy wins against decks that are focusing on killing the Aggro variant.
Decklist notes: I was running late so I was unable to make all the changes to my list (because I forgot). First thing is I want to add another disenchant to the SB, 2nd I want to add my Damnation back in as well. MB I think I want to go back to a 3:1 split of TS:IoK because of the increased number of CMC>3 things we want to remove.
Round 1 Blue Moon (2-0) [1-0]:
I feel like this matchup is very favorable to us. Unlike the aggro lists, we are built to grind. As such, I ended up casting Newlamog game 1 on 7 lands and 3 scions.. sure I drew a ton of lands over the course of the game but between MB relic to keep him from snapping back counters and enough wide grindy damage, he just can't stabilize fast enough. There will be games where you draw all Lingering Souls and cry in the face of Jace but they can only answer so many threats and Blood Moon really doesn't harm us all that much because we are running 4x Blight Herder. Game 2 I had a great opener. Temple, Ghost Quarter, Plains, Disenchant, Surgical Extraction, Relic x2. I play a relic my first 2 turns. He taps out for Blood Moon on turn 3. I play plains, Disenchant the Moon, Surgical it out. He couldn't out grind me from there with no hope of shutting off my lands.
Round 2 Merfolk (1-1-1) [1-0-1]:
This whole round was a product of my opponent not knowing their outs. I had him dead on board if he didn't topdeck a lord Game 1.. ofcourse he did. Game 2 I got the game to grind long. I held open an early GQ so he wouldn't be able to spreading seas. I slowly picked apart all of his dudes as I chump blocked and timed out perfectly for back to back Timely Reinforcement casts. I had him down to 5 and I dropped Batterskull. He should have just scooped but he opted to keep going (and tanking for long periods). I gained enough life to put me WAY out of lethal on the next swing. I had topdecked Lingering souls so I cast it and flashed it back. He scooped. We didn't have enough time to get Game 3 started. Oh well.
Round 3 Jund (2-0) [2-0-1]:
Man did the new cards pay off. Game 1 I got a T4 Reality Smasher down and slammed in for 5 (he is at 14). He then plays Liliana forces me to sacrifice. I follow up with a 2nd Reality Smasher and kill Lili. He plays a tapped land and plays Goyf. I play Whip of Erebos and crack in for another 5 (putting him to 9 and picking me up to over 20). He is forced to sit back his next turn (no idea what he had in hand.. probably Abrupt Decays or he thought he had another turn). My turn I activate whip to bring back Reality Smasher. In response to blocks I crack relic and he scoops. Game 2 I had another decent opener with Sacred Ground in it. This turned out to be the big key because he kept a double GQ hand. He tapped out to play a turn 2 Bob and I played Sacred Ground. He reread what it did several times and cursed under his breath. I got a Reality Smasher down and cracked back to his Bob swing. From there the game essentially devolved into him almost killing himself with Lilianas (he flipped Obstinate Baloth and a Liliana in back to back turns. He did Surgical my Reality Smashers which hurt my draws but Eventually I drew into Lingering Souls which all but locked up the win. He also had no Green sources. After he was pretty low (I think like 7) he did get a fetch which he got his basic forest with (and played a second liliana so he could get closer to ult (which I had no idea why he wanted that.. I'll explain in a moment)). Most Jund players only have 1 basic forest in the deck. Since I knew this, I ghost quartered his forest and kept him off green for the rest of the game.
(Lili Ult explanation: So we have all discussed how Liliana is one of the threats Jund has that can really hurt us because they will severely hurt our mana base. I now have 5 SB cards that help avoid that. 3x Leyline (so he can't target me at all) and 2x Sacred ground. If you have Sacred Ground in play and he ults Liliana... always pick the pile with Sacred Ground. This will ensure you always get all your lands back. When you have nothing else in play (like I did) it makes Ulting Lili the dumbest thing a player can do. Just let them do it if they want.)
Round 4 Esper Gifts (1-0) Table Flip [3-0-1]:
This is a guy who frequents all the stores I go to and he is one of the sorest losers around. He generally is a smart magic player and can be a nice guy to chat with but boy does he get butt hurt and pissy when he loses. Case and point tonight. As we sit down he asks if I'd like to draw. He was going to a midnight showing of Deadpool and didn't want to be late. I opted not to and presented the following reasons. If I drew, I'd be 2-0-2. My store would give me $20 in store credit. If I lost, I'd be 2-1-1 and get $15 store credit (difference of $5 for those playing at home). If I win however, I'd be 3-0-1 and I'd get $50... Why on earth would I not play it out. Worst case I'm down "$5" from the draw, best case I more than double my winnings. Seemed like a no brainer to me. My deck seemed to agree and decided to be extra special dumb sauce. Turns 3-5 I dropped TKS with double temples in play. He had 2 Gifts and 2 paths (relevant things I remember only). I take a gifts. Next turn he Paths my TKS on the swing so I cast my second one. He paths that in response and I see he drew a Griselbrand. I opt to yank that because I didn't want to deal with it. He draw gos. I draw the 3rd TKS and play it (he begins to start the tilt). He responds by casting Gifts Ungivin. He gets a Day of Judgement, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict and Snapcaster. I give him the Wrath and Day of Judgement and then pull the Wrath from hand. He draws and plays a snapcaster on his turn in an effort to path my TKS. I crack relic in response so he is SOL. I then play a Wasteland strangler to kill his Snap and come in for 7.. Knowing he has a wrath, I sit on 2 blight herders in my hand. He eventually board clears to get the 7 power off the board. I play my first Blight Herder (processing 2 lands) to go back up to 7 power. The game then goes to grind mode. Whenever I'd get low on power, I cast another Blight Herder. I eventually drew into an Expedition map and cracked it to get Eye of Ugin. The following turn I played Eye (he Ghost Quarters it EOT) and I search up Newlamog in response (I have more than enough mana to cast it). He doesn't draw a counter and Newlamog resolves. He durdles a bit by playing a couple blockers (lingering soul flashback) and a flip jace. I kill flip Jace with Wasteland Strangler and pass the turn. He scoops and concedes the match. If the tables weren't heavy enough to throw your back out he'd have flipped it. He then was rambling angry sentiments like "You just HAD to play it out" and things like that as he threw his stuff into his bags and stormed out of the store. We were at the top tables and the Judge was right behind us watching the match. We had a good laugh about it. This is one reason I love grindy decks. Every time your opponent thinks they might be stabilizing, you drop another threat or myriad of threats and force them to draw more answers specific answers. Amongst his ramblings he insisted that killing the Jace was overkill but it was the smart play to reduce his number of outs. If he drew a path he died to the rest of the damage onboard. If he drew a board wipe, he died to Ulamog's next swing (because he'd be milled out). I don't think I've ever tilted someone so hard though.
New Card additions and thoughts:
Sacred Ground is amazing. With Crumble to Dust being too slow, everyone is leaning on GQ and other LD effects more than they were before. This is the perfect counter-meta choice. Especially against Jund where they side out all Abrupt Decays because it hits very little. It's actually a matchup I am glad I made a little better because even though we were favored, they still seemed to have good draws against me and would find ways to win. (by the way, Jund player who triple Fulminatored me at regionals got 2nd overall, the Jeskai Tempo player I played (and play regularly at my store got 7th and the Burn kid I know from my LGS got 3rd (though they split prizes in top 4)... All in all 3 of my 9 regional opponents made top 8 and 5 made top 16 and 7 made top 32.... I feel less bad about being 5-4.. the way the day unfolded still upset me a bit but whatever).
Batterskull and Whip of Erebos: These 2 cards fit in the same role of Lifelink utility and recurring threat. I really liked having 1 of each because each shines in their own situation (as proved tonight). Against Merfolk I wanted a 4/4 body immediately where as against Jund I wanted to recur my killed Eldrazi for extra damage on the swings (Reality Smasher working 2 fold as being uber dumb. Did you 2 for 1 to kill it? Good. Now 2 for 1 yourself again or suffer the 10 point life swing). Part of having different threats is I want people to not expect all 4 lifelink sources. I'd like them to see Sorin or Vault game 1 (as an example) and think they will be fine as long as they kill off the creatures in play. Game 2 then sets up Batterskull or Whip where killing the creatures does very little good and instead lets me now abuse them again (or with batterskull, bounce it and then replay it). If I had to pick one... Whip is probably better because it gives lifelink to everything and the activation is just a bonus. The BB in it's cost does take it's toll sometimes and that is where Batterskull reigns supreme. You can cast it through Blood Moon and gives you a nice threat. Also when combined with Reality Smasher you have built your own Slippery Boggle. 9/9 Lifelink, Trample, Haste, Vigilance that you either 2 for 1 yourself if you try and kill it or if you try and remove the equipment, it can be easily bounced back to hand.
As long as they don't go overboard in the future trying to kill this deck, I think we can easily stay competitive.
Sowers belong in the sideboard. I agree with what the colorless aggro version did with sower. It is a card for the mirror.
The more I test the UR version, the more I realize it has two "gears." It can have explosive starts, but not always but eventually it just starts dropping annoying threats that become explosive later. It is very much Izzet in that manor. The prime targets for removal are mimic, TKS and Endless one.
I am not sure what the best removal will be. Doom blade makes me cringe for some reason. I think the pros had it right with Dismember since it is so easy to cast and hits relevant targets.
I also think in the current meta, it is time for All is Dust to exit and damnation to enter, which makes me sad because I don't own any and don't want to drop the cash for them.
My friend also sent me this list: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/372540#online. It looks like it plans to prey the other eldrazi decks (and affinity), while having burn threats with a ton of land hate. I think things are changing a lot.
Dismember is good but paying 4 life for it is cringe worthy to me. In this meta GftT is just not going to be good enough either. Doom Blade at least hits most things. Unfortunately if Painter's Servant sees more play, it can make it worthless. My problem with adding Sower to the SB is that it takes out slots we are using for other things. If you don't have Damnation, you could try running Wrath of God or Day of Judgement since they do the same thing (you'd need to probably use a filter land or 2).
BW handles annoying creatures much better than Colorless Or UR. We also deal with ghostly prison, worship and bridges better. It might be worth it to include more removal in the 75 if we run into the aggro variants.
As we are ok with going later in the game, land hate is less good against us. The processor version showed it can hang with the colorless version, and I could argue that we are better positioned versus the impending hate. So who knows. Maybe the BW version will just next level people.
True enough Panda. That said, let's keep brewing about SB options. I've got some Displacers on the way, quite excited about them. I feel like we now have incentive to play an increased attrition game, 1-for-1s like Strangler, sweepers, Bearer of Silence, maybe Liliana needs to be highlighted. Or perhaps we change gears and, rather than winning through combat damage, we play a more flexible game by setting up functional walls with Sower and stab away with the new pinger guy, or something of that nature. More flexibility means we won't have to abandon this deck.
edit: could also revisit Heartless Eldrazi
I agree with what is being said here. I personally am going to be removing Warping Wail for actual kill spells (Doom Blade being a likely one...) I am also going to be adding a Whip of Erebos to the MB. This will allow us to use previously killed Eldrazi (either from trades or ones that ate non-path removal) and supplement ourselves with some lifegain. I still think Sower is too slow at the end of the day even though it does make a good blocker for Reality Smasher. Blight Herder is still going to be our best friend as well. I'm also meh on Displacer because it resets their Mimics every turn (essentially they swing out and if you blink the Smasher, you pump the mimics back to 5/5's. If you Blink the Mimic, you have to block the 5/5 Trampler. I think we are still a good deck, the panic surrounding the deck (and I agree some of it is unwarranted) just takes some of the fun out of playing it.
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I agree with you that EE still has a place but it is another option if we should need it. I was reading an article about Archangel Avacyn and it reminded me that we can actually trigger her flip pretty easily and without going out of our way. (We just need to sacrifice a Scion token to do so). I'm not 100% convinced but she could be pretty good out of the SB in some matchups.
Declaration in Stone hits tokens your opponents control and doesn't give them clues. ;-) it gives us a way to clear token (no matter the size or type). Compare that to EE which hits our things as well. With the potential for Thopter Tokens to be running around everywhere, it gives us a way to clear them for minimal cost.
Edit: The thing to everyone about Abbey.. it's not just about flipping it. It gives you a late game mana sink as well. Just keep popping out 1/1 tokens at EOT like it's your own personal Bitterblossom. Let them win you the game. Occasionally you can flip him if you need the flying or lifelink.
It's also written by someone who never saw post-OGW BW Eldrazi lists because he says "why cast Blight Herder when you can cast Reality Smasher" ignoring that most lists ran both. It also alluded to us still running Oblivion Sower which I had cut from my list a while ago and even more so now that Eye is gone. He further stated that he never thought it was any good to begin with, which is patently false. This list was very good (probably mid-high tier 2 range for non-Eye games which is what we have to go off of). We are a deck that will be able to out grind GBx decks while still being able to have a semi-favorable control matchup based on how many Caverns we want to run (not to mention Blight Herder's cast trigger). If the meta slows down even a little we could easily find an opening to succeed. Add on top of all that we got new toys like Westvale Abbey, Anguished Unmaking and Declaration in Stone that could give us more versatile removal for things that ailed us before (From Blood Moon to Liliana to Ensnaring Bridge). We lost our ultimate top end of tutor for Ulamog but I think that is something we can get over.
I have thought about adding Red as well. Side note, if you are splashing red.. You'll want Slaughter Games instead of Memorcide. I have been playing a Mardu deck lately and that card does a TON of work (especially in the control mirror where I need answers to counterspells.. we care less about that here). I don't know how I feel about that many fetches though (that become pseudo necessary with that many colors). I still loved my old list that didn't require fetch lands at all.
If black decks are prevelant.. we likely increase the number of Celestial Purges. The card doesn't feel good to run into but I think it's handleable. The fact we still have 5/5 Tramplers, 4/5's and 4/4's means we are less reliant on our tokens surviving (which is why I flash back Lingering Souls immediately more in this deck than really any other). Worst case Memorcide it out of their hand.
With warping wail it really depends... if Wrath of God effects are running around in everyone's decks (and Crumble to Dust) then it's great. If it's only Supreme Verdict in UWx control shells.. I think it loses a lot of it's value for us.
I completely agree with this. I actually had gone all the way down to a 1x Eye when I took my BW list to regionals. I also had a lot of things splashed in that did a lot of work (like Batterskull). We also got a few more good removal spells in Declaration in Stone and Anguished Unmaking. I totally think we are really flexible to whatever meta we find ourselves in. I do think I am going to add some number of Seagate Wreckages to the list to give me some card draw if I get into a topdeck war. This is one of the things I actually like about Westvale Abbey as well. Worst case it becomes a non-flier Bitterblossom late game and can then flip to crack in for a ton.
While I understand the initial reservations... I can say I had no problem casting these 5 CMC creatures in many games before without Eye or Temple in play. Our curve now essentially eliminates Ulamog and Oblivion Sowers (who are not too expensive IMO to play) and makes Blight Herder and Reality Smasher our wincons (I think the correct split/choice is part preference and part meta... I expect to see a lot of control in my meta because it's already been creeping up so I'll use Blight Herder as the primary.)
I say no. It was good enough before as a pseudo 1cmc creature but a 3cmc creature that requires you to have mana open when you play it doesn't seem like where we want to be at. Focus the early turns on turning on processors/stopping opponents gameplan if they are aggro. Then curve into a threat like Blight Herder and sit on it til someone removes it. I suspect we will see a lot more board clears like Supreme Verdict and Damnation coming up soon so we won't be able to over extend as much as before. Thankfully Westvale Abbey is a good new toy that can help us against any non-PTE type deck.
I sold out during the price spike the week before the GPs and will now buy back in with the core pieces dropped in value. (Granted I still have most of it). I got to play westvale abbey a lot this weekend (played it in 2/3 prerelease events). The card is a monster and I think we totally benefit by having it. I am kind of thinking of adding bitterblossom to the list as well. Gives us early game chump blockers, can end the game on their own, gives us more sacrifice fodder for Abbey as well. I'm so glad we kept temple. I seriously thought they'd panic and ax it. Super happy because this deck was a ton of fun to play (and im looking forward to eating some visions)
Depends entirely on the situation. I have cast Blight Herders and Stranglers for no additional value. Stranglers usually stay in for me against control decks just to be 3/2 beat sticks that they have to waste removal killing. (occasionally they kill Snaps and things but its rare). It's very easy to turn them on though.
Sorin is better than Whip but I am a firm believer in why not both? I have been running both for the last week or so and have been pleased.
It's really a preference call. I like having the 3 1/1 bodies as well because of matchups like Zoo which are running around my meta. Gaining 8 life doesn't do you a lot of good when they have at least 8 power on board. Gaining 6 life and getting 3 bodies can be big (not to mention they play really well with a follow up Sorin or Vault of the Archangel). Also, my list doesn't run fetches which makes Rest for the Weary worse.
Ok quick tournament report from FNM (from what I can remember from the long weekend) 63 people:
Round 1 UR Eldrazi (0-2)[0-1]:
Game 1 he had magic christmas (eye, temple x2, TKS and Smasher). I had a bit of a slower hand and got murdered pretty quick. Game 2 I stripped away his TKS and unless he topdecked a Temple, I'd TKS his Reality Smasher and he'd have been out of relevant gas. He topdecked the Temple and started in with reality smasher. Next turn he over extended more gas from hand. I cleared the board with Damnation. We were now in topdeck wars... he topdecked Vile Aggregate into Drowner of Hope while I hit 2 lands.. gg.
Round 2 Maze Turbo Fog (2-0)[1-1]:
I am a firm believer in tough love. You aren't going to learn competitive magic unless you get your butt kicked. This doesn't mean I nitpick on rules and such at FNMs but that does mean I show no mercy when it comes to making plays. This is one of the few instances where my spikiness made me feel a little bad. Very little kid playing Modern for his first time. Game 1 I see he is on Turbo Fog with Maze's End as his wincon. I manage to strip enough Fog Effects out of his hand and kill him eventually. We move to game 2 and I sideboard. Here was how our game 2 went. He mulliganed down to 6. Keep, scry to the bottom. He plays a Selesnya Guild Gate tapped and passes the turn. I draw and play Ghost Quarter. I GQ the Guild Gate. He fails to find a basic. I then pay 2 life and cast Surgical Extraction on the gate.... He reads the card and responds, "But now I can't win". I'm not going to lie I felt a little bad and the rest of the table (upon hearing the events unfold) were in equal shock and awe how cold blooded I was in dismantling him. I feel like it's still the right thing to do (and polled a bunch of other folks including our Head Judge to see what he'd have done) and most said they'd probably do something similar. What about yall? Would you guys kill his wincon turn 1? Would you not have brought in Surgical Extraction and just tried to kill him normally? Would you have held the Surgical and only used it when he was about to win?
Round 3 Grixis Delver (2-0) [2-1]:
I can't remember these specific games but I was playing against a former Twin player who had just picked up Delver. I won the first game on the back of TKS and Whip of Erebos. Making him Terminate in response to trigger, yanking his best card from hand twice game 1 and then whipping them back to keep him with jank in hand (plus playing a Blight Herder) completely wrecked him. I think Game 2 wasn't much of a contest, I don't remember though. I sat with the guy and walked him through a few mistakes I remember him doing (as well as little idiosyncrasies of playing Delver that he may not have been aware of).
Round 4 Zoo (1-2) [2-2]:
Game 1 he curved out for the turn 3 kill, not much I could have done differently but with New Bushwacker.. this deck is crazy fast. Game 2 I stabilized and eventually equipped Batterskull to Blight Herder. Apparently Zoo doesn't have any answers to 8/9 vigilance lifelinkers. Game 3 He had another nutish draw and killed me Turn 3. It happens... oh well
I got to play more against the new Eldrazi decks between rounds. I still it's going to be a bad matchup going forward against any of the aggro variants. I've gotten to the point where I am going to treat it like I was treating Scapeshift and Tron. If I lose to it, whatever. If I can steal a win from it, great. I am going to focus my efforts on beating the rest of the field that is praying on the Aggrodrazi decks. Anyway, I do like Bitterblossum and might try it in place of a Lingering Souls. It performs a similar role as well.
I have still been totally sold on Batterskull and Whip of Erebos in conjunction with Sorin and Vault to increase our total lifelink mainboard. Because Sorin and Whip are subject to the Legend rule, I don't want to increase beyond 1. My favorite part of having all the 1x in the deck is you REALLY catch opponents off-guard. Against Zoo he stated he didn't bring in Artifact hate game 2 because he didn't care about Relic or Map. When he saw Batterskull he said he about shat himself as he knew he had virtually no answer for it and had to hope on chaining multiple Atarka Commands to possibly kill me. Essentially I took slots like the 1x Oblivion Sower and turned it into a 5 CMC 4/4 Lifelinker with upside threat. Whip was a trial that has felt good enough so far. It is awkward at times but when you get the engine running.. it feels amazing.
Kalitas is another good option which I do like. It is better against Burn than Whip because it gifts you a body as well. It also gives you a route around Artifact hate which seems nice. I do love the recursion off Whip though.
Not really. The key difference is now you don't want to crack them whenever but I still kept Goyfs to 1/2's because I'd keep just a creature in my yard and nothing in my opponents. It all depends on the matchup really. For me it's more like Whip is just another 4 drop lifelink outlet and has the added upside of recurring my dudes lategame.
Personally Lingering Souls is my favorite card in Modern and besides that, it just makes so many matchups good. I haven't been hankering for Smasher #4 though. Smasher #3 seemed vital (because there were games where the first 2 get killed and I could tutor up a 3rd to win but I didn't have it. I think if Eye goes away, I'd take out Ulamog for it.
I think Sower is completely not needed. I haven't played the matchup a ton but I found my best chance was to kill/TS Reality Smasher and then Surgical it away. From there if I get to a lifelink outlet, I typically win (which is why I increased the quantity). Essentially I am mainly worried about trample. (Batterskull does a ton of work against both variants as well. Equip it to any dude and they can't get past it. Against the UR version just put it on a Souls token and troll your way to victory.
I like Worship and it might be worth the add if you own one. Personally it's cost is too crazy for me to consider it right now. Leyline puts in a lot of work as well. Pretty much if they can't trample over, you trade and stall the game until they are in top deck mode and that is when your lifelink sources and deck will win the game out.
3x Wasteland Strangler
3x Thought-knot Seer
3x Reality Smasher
4x Blight Herder
1x Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
Sorceries(8):
4x Lingering Souls
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
Instants(5):
4x Path to Exile
1x Warping Wail
Artifacts(8):
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Expedition Map
1x Batterskull
1x Whip of Erebos
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands(24):
4x Eldrazi Temple
2x Eye of Ugin
1x Urborg, Tomb of the Yawgmoth
3x Godless Shrine
4x Cave of Koilos
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Waste
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Shambling Vent
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Stony Silence
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sacred Ground
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Disenchant
3x Leyline of Sanctity
Decklist notes: I was running late so I was unable to make all the changes to my list (because I forgot). First thing is I want to add another disenchant to the SB, 2nd I want to add my Damnation back in as well. MB I think I want to go back to a 3:1 split of TS:IoK because of the increased number of CMC>3 things we want to remove.
Round 1 Blue Moon (2-0) [1-0]:
I feel like this matchup is very favorable to us. Unlike the aggro lists, we are built to grind. As such, I ended up casting Newlamog game 1 on 7 lands and 3 scions.. sure I drew a ton of lands over the course of the game but between MB relic to keep him from snapping back counters and enough wide grindy damage, he just can't stabilize fast enough. There will be games where you draw all Lingering Souls and cry in the face of Jace but they can only answer so many threats and Blood Moon really doesn't harm us all that much because we are running 4x Blight Herder. Game 2 I had a great opener. Temple, Ghost Quarter, Plains, Disenchant, Surgical Extraction, Relic x2. I play a relic my first 2 turns. He taps out for Blood Moon on turn 3. I play plains, Disenchant the Moon, Surgical it out. He couldn't out grind me from there with no hope of shutting off my lands.
Round 2 Merfolk (1-1-1) [1-0-1]:
This whole round was a product of my opponent not knowing their outs. I had him dead on board if he didn't topdeck a lord Game 1.. ofcourse he did. Game 2 I got the game to grind long. I held open an early GQ so he wouldn't be able to spreading seas. I slowly picked apart all of his dudes as I chump blocked and timed out perfectly for back to back Timely Reinforcement casts. I had him down to 5 and I dropped Batterskull. He should have just scooped but he opted to keep going (and tanking for long periods). I gained enough life to put me WAY out of lethal on the next swing. I had topdecked Lingering souls so I cast it and flashed it back. He scooped. We didn't have enough time to get Game 3 started. Oh well.
Round 3 Jund (2-0) [2-0-1]:
Man did the new cards pay off. Game 1 I got a T4 Reality Smasher down and slammed in for 5 (he is at 14). He then plays Liliana forces me to sacrifice. I follow up with a 2nd Reality Smasher and kill Lili. He plays a tapped land and plays Goyf. I play Whip of Erebos and crack in for another 5 (putting him to 9 and picking me up to over 20). He is forced to sit back his next turn (no idea what he had in hand.. probably Abrupt Decays or he thought he had another turn). My turn I activate whip to bring back Reality Smasher. In response to blocks I crack relic and he scoops. Game 2 I had another decent opener with Sacred Ground in it. This turned out to be the big key because he kept a double GQ hand. He tapped out to play a turn 2 Bob and I played Sacred Ground. He reread what it did several times and cursed under his breath. I got a Reality Smasher down and cracked back to his Bob swing. From there the game essentially devolved into him almost killing himself with Lilianas (he flipped Obstinate Baloth and a Liliana in back to back turns. He did Surgical my Reality Smashers which hurt my draws but Eventually I drew into Lingering Souls which all but locked up the win. He also had no Green sources. After he was pretty low (I think like 7) he did get a fetch which he got his basic forest with (and played a second liliana so he could get closer to ult (which I had no idea why he wanted that.. I'll explain in a moment)). Most Jund players only have 1 basic forest in the deck. Since I knew this, I ghost quartered his forest and kept him off green for the rest of the game.
(Lili Ult explanation: So we have all discussed how Liliana is one of the threats Jund has that can really hurt us because they will severely hurt our mana base. I now have 5 SB cards that help avoid that. 3x Leyline (so he can't target me at all) and 2x Sacred ground. If you have Sacred Ground in play and he ults Liliana... always pick the pile with Sacred Ground. This will ensure you always get all your lands back. When you have nothing else in play (like I did) it makes Ulting Lili the dumbest thing a player can do. Just let them do it if they want.)
Round 4 Esper Gifts (1-0) Table Flip [3-0-1]:
This is a guy who frequents all the stores I go to and he is one of the sorest losers around. He generally is a smart magic player and can be a nice guy to chat with but boy does he get butt hurt and pissy when he loses. Case and point tonight. As we sit down he asks if I'd like to draw. He was going to a midnight showing of Deadpool and didn't want to be late. I opted not to and presented the following reasons. If I drew, I'd be 2-0-2. My store would give me $20 in store credit. If I lost, I'd be 2-1-1 and get $15 store credit (difference of $5 for those playing at home). If I win however, I'd be 3-0-1 and I'd get $50... Why on earth would I not play it out. Worst case I'm down "$5" from the draw, best case I more than double my winnings. Seemed like a no brainer to me. My deck seemed to agree and decided to be extra special dumb sauce. Turns 3-5 I dropped TKS with double temples in play. He had 2 Gifts and 2 paths (relevant things I remember only). I take a gifts. Next turn he Paths my TKS on the swing so I cast my second one. He paths that in response and I see he drew a Griselbrand. I opt to yank that because I didn't want to deal with it. He draw gos. I draw the 3rd TKS and play it (he begins to start the tilt). He responds by casting Gifts Ungivin. He gets a Day of Judgement, Wrath of God, Supreme Verdict and Snapcaster. I give him the Wrath and Day of Judgement and then pull the Wrath from hand. He draws and plays a snapcaster on his turn in an effort to path my TKS. I crack relic in response so he is SOL. I then play a Wasteland strangler to kill his Snap and come in for 7.. Knowing he has a wrath, I sit on 2 blight herders in my hand. He eventually board clears to get the 7 power off the board. I play my first Blight Herder (processing 2 lands) to go back up to 7 power. The game then goes to grind mode. Whenever I'd get low on power, I cast another Blight Herder. I eventually drew into an Expedition map and cracked it to get Eye of Ugin. The following turn I played Eye (he Ghost Quarters it EOT) and I search up Newlamog in response (I have more than enough mana to cast it). He doesn't draw a counter and Newlamog resolves. He durdles a bit by playing a couple blockers (lingering soul flashback) and a flip jace. I kill flip Jace with Wasteland Strangler and pass the turn. He scoops and concedes the match. If the tables weren't heavy enough to throw your back out he'd have flipped it. He then was rambling angry sentiments like "You just HAD to play it out" and things like that as he threw his stuff into his bags and stormed out of the store. We were at the top tables and the Judge was right behind us watching the match. We had a good laugh about it. This is one reason I love grindy decks. Every time your opponent thinks they might be stabilizing, you drop another threat or myriad of threats and force them to draw more answers specific answers. Amongst his ramblings he insisted that killing the Jace was overkill but it was the smart play to reduce his number of outs. If he drew a path he died to the rest of the damage onboard. If he drew a board wipe, he died to Ulamog's next swing (because he'd be milled out). I don't think I've ever tilted someone so hard though.
New Card additions and thoughts:
Sacred Ground is amazing. With Crumble to Dust being too slow, everyone is leaning on GQ and other LD effects more than they were before. This is the perfect counter-meta choice. Especially against Jund where they side out all Abrupt Decays because it hits very little. It's actually a matchup I am glad I made a little better because even though we were favored, they still seemed to have good draws against me and would find ways to win. (by the way, Jund player who triple Fulminatored me at regionals got 2nd overall, the Jeskai Tempo player I played (and play regularly at my store got 7th and the Burn kid I know from my LGS got 3rd (though they split prizes in top 4)... All in all 3 of my 9 regional opponents made top 8 and 5 made top 16 and 7 made top 32.... I feel less bad about being 5-4.. the way the day unfolded still upset me a bit but whatever).
Batterskull and Whip of Erebos: These 2 cards fit in the same role of Lifelink utility and recurring threat. I really liked having 1 of each because each shines in their own situation (as proved tonight). Against Merfolk I wanted a 4/4 body immediately where as against Jund I wanted to recur my killed Eldrazi for extra damage on the swings (Reality Smasher working 2 fold as being uber dumb. Did you 2 for 1 to kill it? Good. Now 2 for 1 yourself again or suffer the 10 point life swing). Part of having different threats is I want people to not expect all 4 lifelink sources. I'd like them to see Sorin or Vault game 1 (as an example) and think they will be fine as long as they kill off the creatures in play. Game 2 then sets up Batterskull or Whip where killing the creatures does very little good and instead lets me now abuse them again (or with batterskull, bounce it and then replay it). If I had to pick one... Whip is probably better because it gives lifelink to everything and the activation is just a bonus. The BB in it's cost does take it's toll sometimes and that is where Batterskull reigns supreme. You can cast it through Blood Moon and gives you a nice threat. Also when combined with Reality Smasher you have built your own Slippery Boggle. 9/9 Lifelink, Trample, Haste, Vigilance that you either 2 for 1 yourself if you try and kill it or if you try and remove the equipment, it can be easily bounced back to hand.
As long as they don't go overboard in the future trying to kill this deck, I think we can easily stay competitive.
Dismember is good but paying 4 life for it is cringe worthy to me. In this meta GftT is just not going to be good enough either. Doom Blade at least hits most things. Unfortunately if Painter's Servant sees more play, it can make it worthless. My problem with adding Sower to the SB is that it takes out slots we are using for other things. If you don't have Damnation, you could try running Wrath of God or Day of Judgement since they do the same thing (you'd need to probably use a filter land or 2).
I agree with what is being said here. I personally am going to be removing Warping Wail for actual kill spells (Doom Blade being a likely one...) I am also going to be adding a Whip of Erebos to the MB. This will allow us to use previously killed Eldrazi (either from trades or ones that ate non-path removal) and supplement ourselves with some lifegain. I still think Sower is too slow at the end of the day even though it does make a good blocker for Reality Smasher. Blight Herder is still going to be our best friend as well. I'm also meh on Displacer because it resets their Mimics every turn (essentially they swing out and if you blink the Smasher, you pump the mimics back to 5/5's. If you Blink the Mimic, you have to block the 5/5 Trampler. I think we are still a good deck, the panic surrounding the deck (and I agree some of it is unwarranted) just takes some of the fun out of playing it.