Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them... Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups).
That does sound like it's probably variance. I should have been more clear, though, as I was actually responding to stormie-sarge's comments about Ratchet Bomb.
You have a good point about Dismember and Blood Moon, and I agree that Unmaking is a mixed bag. I recently dropped from two in the side to one. Coalition Relic is a thing but for now I am succeeding OK with my fetch/GQ/Path package for Moon-playing decks.
My goal is to come back big in G2/3 against any creature-swarm aggro deck, including exile effects for Voice of Resurgence, Kitchen Finks, and all the Kolaghan's Command/Eternal Witness shenanigans. Pulling key deck pieces out of the yard/hand/library is a major strategy for me as well, with a playset of Surgical Extraction (I maindeck one).
Burn gets three life-gain cards which is a little lighter than I would like. Combo gets disruption plus Extraction. Tron gets Stony Silence plus Ghost Quarter/Extraction. Blood Moon gets Ratchet Bomb plus Anguished Unmaking, which can indeed be hard to cast. (I prioritize getting basics above all other considerations when I face Moon decks, and the three fetches help a huge amount with this.) Control I mostly just play around and seem to do OK, unless they get off a Sphinx's Revelation for like 7 or something.
I currently feel like my main and side have a workable plan for anything I might see, but I haven't tested this version vs. Burn and Tron so these are still theoretical.
Ah ok, I totally agree with all your points. How much MB discard do you run. Currently I'm at a 2:2 split on Inquisition and Thoughtseize with 2 more Thoughtseize out of the side for combo/control matchups. I do like out control matchup currently because most folks I see are running AV as their big "CA" card and not things like Sphinx Rev. Because of this, they tend to run out of answers and then are forced to durdle (not to mention side out their discard. I haven't seen much burn lately but I have 3 Leylines and 2 Timely Reinforcements to assist in that process. We have a local SCG States tournament thing coming up on Sunday and I play on taking this deck like I did to regionals. Hopefully my meta stays the same and I can get a bit luckier on my draws against Infect/Affinity. Overall it's been really really nice. I did live the dream last week and processed 2x AV on turn 4 with a Blight Herder against Grixis Thing Control.
I'm surprised to hear you're having trouble against Infect and Affinity. For me these are consistently winnable in a best-of-three, Infect in particular.
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
The funny part is when I face decks like tron, most midrange and combo, I do quite well. Not sure if it is more playstyle or what, but I have trouble against the fast decks just due to them having a more fluid gameplan against my disruption.
We are susceptible to fast decks. Affinity and Infect both get pretty hosed by Lingering Souls since it lets you chump for days until you start resolving meatier threats. Affinities "out" against midrange decks with spot removal is Etched Champion which is useless against us as well due to devoid. We are a large midrange deck that should beat up on other midrange strategies and because of our structure, I think we have a fairly good control matchup as well (especially if you are running Expedition Map toolbox and can get Cavern consistently into play). Things like Tron are still problematic because we can't provide a fast enough clock to usually hose them. The exception are the rare T2 TKS T3 Smasher hands. Those can end the game swiftly and possibly disrupt them long enough that they can't start attacking your land base.
The only time Westvale Abbey ever helped me was against burn. I could have swung out with my dudes but then left open for counter attacks and they are almost always ahead of you on damage. The lifelink is what saved me. Otherwise I am sure it is a win more card but the option is always nice to have. It is also a bonus against a board heavy presence where neither of you can get through. It also helps to sack stuff that can come back from the grave. Might be too cute but worth looking into. Creatures with persist or undying perhaps might give us an edge against creature heavy decks.
Westvale Abbey provides it's maximum value against grindy/control matchups where you use it as primarily a late game bitterblossom. It's flip side does have some other utilities as you say in certain situations but it's primary job is to give you a mana dump in games where you are getting flooded late.
I'm surprised to hear you're having trouble against Infect and Affinity. For me these are consistently winnable in a best-of-three, Infect in particular.
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them. Even when I answer the initial threats, I can't beat the god-tier topdecks they seem to pull against me. These are the matchups where I'd have Unmaking in hand and then die to an Inkmoth Nexus as well and see 0 GQ's somehow through the match (or if I do find one, they have find a duplicate). On paper I agree it's a very good matchup but their nut draws are still extremely hard to beat. Lingering Souls has also seemed to be extremely scarce in my draws so far. It's more just variance than anything else. I know how to play the matchup and still usually put up a fight but some things you can't control. Bear in mind we only have 6 targeted removal spells and when 2 of those are Unmaking, they can't hit manlands and cost the full 3. This is why I am considering splitting it's utility with Dismember or just bringing them in from the board for the matchups I want them in. Also the 3 life matters a lot in the quick aggro matchups where you could be paying 0 life for dismember. Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups). It will give use WW, WB or BB even under Blood Moon so we don't have to worry about it. It can also let us drop our Eldrazi onto board without tapping completely down (bear in mind if you play it on turn 3 you can then use it Path/Dismember if you need to or use it to ramp out to 5 mana on T4 even if you don't make your next land drop. It also makes manlands a bit easier to activate since you can use your "free" mana to do so if you choose. I'm not totally sold on it but it really does do a lot of work in my other deck.
Dismember is very good but unlike Unmaking it does not hit Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, or Liliana (or permanents like them). In my opinion a better replacement for that newer card is the one I was running before SOI was released, which is Oblivion Ring.
The exile effects can hit creatures but for me that is a secondary function. Personally, I run one main and a couple side for troubling non-creature permanents.
My problem has been Man Lands though (primarily Inkmoth Nexus) which I can't kill with Oblivion Ring or Unmaking. In the end I'll probably go to a 1-1 split of Dismember and Anguished. It just feels really bad getting blown out by manlands with Unmaking in hand. It's also not the best anti-Blood Moon card because it requires you to have both basics out to cast (unlike Celestial Purge/Disenchant). Honestly I haven't seen Blood Moons running around my meta (only one I've seen was brought in by an affinity player which is something you rarely ever see).
As for control matchups, once you get the feeling for how to steer around it, I really like our matchup. With Cavern of Souls making all our Creatures uncounterable, Discard to hit their counters/make sure the path is clear and lands like Westvale Abbey which forces them to spend cards answering "free" threats. Patience is the key thing against Control (as you demonstrated in your report). They really can't pressure you quickly so you focus on making your land drops and forcing a threat through. I love Blight Herder in the matchup because of it's ability as well as the fact they chain really well. What I mean by that is you put 7 power of dudes on board and start cracking in with your 3 turn clock. Eventually they will be forced to sweep the board at which point you jam another out of hand. Eventually they get to the point where they need "an answer per turn" and will run out. Another thing I love about people trying UWx control is a lot of them are trying to rely on Colonnade as their win-con which is easy to kill and forces them to tap 5 mana. The folks who have more experience with UWx control (ie they have been playing it long before AV unban) are a bit trickier as they run things like Elspeth which can stall our board and provide them with a clock.
EldraziTron is kinda hard, as as you say we are more stalling then putting threats, they are fine with the stall and are putting bigger threats, and it become fast hard to path them all. In those we have to take the aggro side and rush them imo
GR Tron is still an awful matchup and honestly the Eldrazitron is worse. If you can't keep them off tron they start hitting your lands quickly and have an extremely high density of threats. I haven't seen a ton of it around because most folks are testing out UW Gifts Tron so they can play Thopter-sword. Luckily we are really good at that matchup what with 4 MB Relics and such.
This is my current list. Still getting tweaked here and there as I get a feeling for what works and doesn't. Just went back to 2x Dismember over Anguished Unmaking to see if which one feels better (I've been getting really bad luck with Unmaking in hand and getting killed my man-lands).
Westvale Abbey looks very good but I am not so sure it isn't a win-more card.
I totally agree. I haven't used it enough to have a final opinion on Abbey, but from experience I think by the time I could sacrifice 5 creatures and a land and tapping approximately 5 lands to make a big smasher, to close out the game, I would have been better off using the mana to keep the 5 creatures lifelink and deathtouch (Vault of the Archangle) instead of board-wiping myself. In the late-games where I am behind I would rather use the mana to draw an extra card (Sea Gate Wreckage) to help outvalue the opponent.
I also totally agree with your assessment of the core of the deck.
To have the flexibility and given that we have so many lands to tutor for I added two Epedition Map again. Unfortunately, I don't get much time to test but from a few games against CoCo Elves I feel that the Processor/D&T built lacks punch and needs Aether Vial badly. I will go back to processor built. Tidehollow Sculler are mana-hungry. For me, with 11 untapped BW sources, 2 maps and a Shambling Vent they were reliably castable but no game winners. They and two Eldrazi Displacer are the cards I still keep in my processor build.
So this seems like a misinterpretation of what we should use Westvale Abbey for 99% of the time. I typically use it as an EOT Bitterblossom when I have nothing better to do in grindy/control matchups. Flipping it is totally "win more" except in certain situations (like Jund who has next to 0 outs If you sac 5/6 Scion tokens to it) or Burn who just can't come back from the massive life gain if they don't have a skullcrack effect in hand. It can also rarely be used as sweeper protection if you need it. So far I've liked it because of the amount of control in my meta but it's at most a 2x.
I have never removed my Maps and still love them. I've only gotten Temple once as well. Every other time it's been to get the utility land that best suits the situation.
We are a bit of a dog at times to the Aggro decks because even the answers we do have have to be both drawn and cast/used turns 3-4. Sometimes it's just too late. I've even been losing a lot more games to Infect and Affinity than I ever remember doing so before because my luck in drawing things like Lingering Souls has been terrible. Also my lands can't decide how many they want to give me. I've had several instances where I see only 2 lands and then other games that I see all lands... sigh eventually it'll start to even out.
Aegis of the Gods would be easier to cast than true believer if you want to go down that road. But I would only see it as a side against burn or heavy discard.
And then you are just better off with Leyline which I have liked anyway. I don't see a need to have both.
I think that's how that interaction works. Don't know if the card is worth it though (remember that Abzan Coco can always chord for Reclamation Sage to blow it up before they go off.
Im not sold on it either, it requires a bit of a set up, having a creature removal that doesnt exile or blocking and killing a guy, or one of our beaters die. Its a bad top deck with an empty board etc.
As for reclamation sage, its still stalls them for 1 turn and they have to waste a chord for it which could allow us to use our surgical extraction on it. They cant win through their combo as long as its on the field which gives mimic vat some merit.
Totally agree that it has some merit and I do like it as a way to keep pressure on with killed TSK, Reality Smashers and Blight Herders. You can also abuse it with Wasteland Strangler as well.
I'm curious... Mimic Vat imprint the cards, I wonder if we could then process it (because it's still technically in our opponents exile right?) and then when it gets put back into the GY we can reimprint it? I think that's how that interaction works. Don't know if the card is worth it though (remember that Abzan Coco can always chord for Reclamation Sage to blow it up before they go off.
Mimic Vat says the creature needs to die to be imprinted (so moved from the battlefield to the graveyard). So processing it will not allow it go right back into the mimic vat. Also note, you can only process the creatures exiled by mimic vat if it is owned by your opponent. You cannot process your own creatures under the mimic vat
Ah I was going off memory of the card. Cool that makes sense. I was assuming it was your opponents creatures.
I'm curious... Mimic Vat imprint the cards, I wonder if we could then process it (because it's still technically in our opponents exile right?) and then when it gets put back into the GY we can reimprint it? I think that's how that interaction works. Don't know if the card is worth it though (remember that Abzan Coco can always chord for Reclamation Sage to blow it up before they go off.
Frank Lepore was playing with this deck at his monday modern stream, it is a variation of Death and Taxes, but with the Eldrazi lands and creatures. Really interesting.
I played 9 games against Eldrazi Death and Taxes 2-3 days ago on cockatrice and went 4-5. Both of us were trying to figure out the best lines of play. It was good for sure; not sure about its position against the field without the graveyard hate. Vialing Flickerwisp or Sculler and then Processing with Strangler felt bad on the receiving end for sure. However with that mana base, the deck appears maybe a little Vial-dependent, since it runs only 22 lands with 12 T2+ W and 11 T2+ B. Sculler and Wisp will both sit in hand sometimes in the absence of a Vial, I would imagine. Haven't had time to watch the video yet though, I admit.
On a separate note, I made a notebook to record match details while testing or at events where I want to clearly remember details. Because I teach I have access to copiers and high-tech comb binding technology. I attached an image if anyone is interested.
This is solid! I may have to use this in the future. The reasons you mention is why I am also sticking with this processor list over the D&T one. I also feel like my deck has game with such a wide variety of hands/draws. I've already had games where I can T2 TKS into Smasher and turn into a beats deck as well as games where I sit back, control the board and kill with either Shambling Vents or Clerics off Abbey. I just feel like the D&T list is a little too cute and relies on you finding Vial and/or Temple to function well.
I find myself stalling out on lands too much. Needing five mana doesn't seem that much to ask, but for some reason it isn't as regular as I would like. I am going to be tracking my land drops, but for now I also intend to throw two Matter Reshapers into the deck to replace a Herder and a Smasher. Hopefully, they will give me something to do while I wait for five, as well as help me get there when they die.
I'm grumpy about aggro and am going to add 2x Flaying Tendrils to my board on top of my existing Damnations as sweepers. Tendrils should be very good against the Eternal Witness/Reveillark decks.
I very much enjoy my 2x Flaying Tendrils out of the board. I love Damnation but it is both a bit too slow at times as well as doesn't effectively kill good creatures like Voice or Finks. Flaying Tendrils lets you hit those fast aggro decks while feeding their exile to process later.
I like the look of your list. In terms of the batter skull, I think you could go down to 3 herders because without ulamog or osower the scions get a little worse. I think that would be the best cut, and it also wouldn't effect curve. On a separate note, is anyone convinced matter reshaper fits in this deck? I haven't had a chance to test them but I'm honestly a bit skeptical, they just don't seem as reliable as stranglers. Have they been putting in work for anyone?
While I am not totally convinced that they have a spot in the list, they are a value machine against decks where you are grinding. They have always netted me a land (admittedly small sample size) which is a land that I neither drew nor had to play. I'm meh on them overall but the 2x I've been running seem fine enough as road blocks (unlike my problem with Displacer in that it can die without giving you value). Strangler is still great and I might go up to the full 4x (currently I am at 3x).
Sideboard 3 Leyline of sanctity 3 Stony Silence 2 celestial purge [Im in favour of this over disenchant due to eventual zombiedeck/hitting most planeswalkers that are played (sorin, chandra, tezzeret, lilöiana), thopter foundry, blood moon, most of junds, burns creatures, some of blue moons creatures, really wreckes mardu (if sin prodder is a thing)] 1 Disenchant 1 engineered explosives 1 Wrath of god [dont own damnation, but I think white is a better sideboard colour for this deck, unless you want more creature removal from flaying tendrils or play kalitas etc] 1 spellskite 1 kataki, war's wage [affinity and lantern hate, stalls thopter deck] 1 Relic of progenitus [will be replaced with rest in peace when they arrive] 1 grafdigger's cage [will be replaced with rest in peace when they arrive]
This gives me:
W: 14½ - I really want to be able to cast my sideboard cards in time
B: 12½ - I think we can hold our black spells for a while under a blood moon without too much problem in favour of finding white easier.
C: 12
[optional] You could cut 1 Ghost quarter for a Westvale abbey (dont own one and havnt been able to do any testing)/Sea gate wreckage(Im not sold on it, too often with this deck you get stuck with cards in hand untill the game is over on turn <=6)/cavern of souls (dont own one, but should really be played)
I like the SB and will likely move to something similar to it soon.
I agree that Sea Gate is a bit useless at times but in the games where it is good (vs control when you are top decking) you can churn CA and without Eye, we need to be able to draw into multiple threats. If you'd rather have a constant source, Mikoro, Center of the Sea is fine but you have to trust that your draws will be better than theirs. Definitely going to go down to a 1x Sea Gate though. Westvale Abbey is and has been amazing so far. I highly recommend trying it out.
Personally I am not very scared of Blood Moon. From what I have seen of my meta, most folks have moved away from it because folks a.) aren't playing Tron or Eldrazi, b.) Are playing a greedy manabase themselves or c.) playing a UWx control variant and either don't want to or can't play it.
Great play report, thanks! One big question, though: Can you actually make your B and W spells work reliably with that mana base? Your colored mana counts seem extremely low to me, at only 8 of either on T1, and then 10 of either on T2-plus. Seems precarious. (Seventeen colorless sources certainly guarantees your Reshapers, Seers, and Smashers will find a way to play, though!) I guess the 2-of Maps help quite a bit, but I wonder if the mana balance is as good as it could get. I have 11 T1 B, and on T2 I have 14 B and 13 each of W and C.
Since you're running the Maps anyway, have you considered maybe dropping one each of Sea Gate Wreckage and Westvale Abbey for a pair of Marsh Flats? I know you don't like the fetches but I don't know why. Curious to hear your thoughts.
I haven't had any problems so far and this is about the landbase I used when I went to Regionals with the list a while back. Marsh Flats might not be a bad idea but what do we really have that us WW or BB? Currently it's just Damnation or Wrath out of the board if you have them (not really counting Leyline because you'd rather it be free). I don't have any Marsh Flats currently but honestly my thing with fetches is that they have never felt necessary and many times felt like a hinderance. With the introduction of <C> into the costs, Cave of Koilos does everything I want and usually it's cheaper on average in life cost. Fetch->Shock->TS is 5 life, Fetch->Swamp->TS is still 3, Fetch->Swamp->IOK is 1, Fetch->Shock->IOK is 3. Compare it to Cave->TS is 3 and Cave->IOK is 1. Not having fetches also lets me run a couple more utility lands like Bojuka Bog, Cavern, Sea-gate Wreckage and Westvale. There is a common misconception that fetching thins your deck. It does but at such a minute level it takes ~20 draws to experience the difference.
I will probably drop a Sea Gate because of my experience this weekend with it (I really think I only need 1 in the list) but Westvale was very good even if it was just another threat. Almost all of my games went long enough that I could make dudes with it if I had it or wanted it. Map was also key in several matches getting me Cavern and a Bojuka Bog once to shrink a goyf from 5/6 to 3/4 and force my opponent into a bad chump block.
Hey guys I have 2 Tournament Results to post for yall. Man I am so happy to be back playing processors again. (The fact I sold out for max profit the weeks of the GPs and just bought back in for a fraction of that profit really rustles my jimmies). Anyway, here is my current decklist:
I have some thoughts on changes to the overall decklist/sideboard that I'll get to after both tournament results and reflections:
FNM Modern (51 people):
Round 1 Jeskai Control(2-0)[1-0]: Yay for folks overzealously trying to jam 4x Ancestral Visions into everything they can! Game 1 I cracked Map to get Cavern of Souls and Strangled AV killing one of my Abbey tokens. I knew he had double bolt in hand (which Strangler swiftly ate) but I'll take that 2 for 1 all day. I then made 1/1 Clerics with Westvaleblossum and slowly beat him to death (I had a nifty play where he attempted to Helix 1 of my 4 dudes, I path my own guy. He remands his helix and attempts to helix another dude. I use my 2nd path... he was at 2. GG. Game 2 I used T1 and 2 discard to rip his Path and Leak. T3 I play TKS and exile his boardwipe. T4 I drop Reality Smasher and start wrecking face. He couldn't come up with answers fast enough.
Round 2 Junk (1-2)[1-1]: These games were fairly even all things considered but my opponent topdecked a LOT better than I did by drawing multiple Rhinos in a row while I drew lands. Oh well, these things happen. Still a good matchup overall for us though. Take the licks where they come I suppose. On the plus side. His goyfs were the cutest 0/1's you'd have ever seen.
Round 3 Jund (2-0)[2-1]: Absolutely out-valued and annihilated this poor sap. He hadn't ever played against the processor Eldrazi before either. Game 2 I forced out 2 Blight Herders and then sacrificed 5 of the scion tokens for Ormendahl. Turns out that Jund has 0 answers to a 9/7 flying lifelink indestructible dude when you still have a Herder and a Scion token for Liliana protection and they are in topdeck mode (I knew this and that is why I flipped him).
Round 4 Mono-red Prowess Pumps (1-2)[2-2]: Quick fast aggro plan with Titan Strength on Swiftspears followed by Temur Battle Rages. Game 3 I couldn't find spot removal and he topdecked a well-timed Blood Moon to finish me off (had he not topdecked it, I had Sorin coming down with 3 tokens I had just gotten from Timely Reinforcements). Oh well, take your licks where they be.
Overall tournament thoughts: Lots of control and GBx running around. It felt really really good. Seeing the first guys reaction as he realized he was playing against Eldrazi despite the ban (and then essentially having 4 dead cards in his 75) felt really good. My sideboard was kind of just thrown together from what I had in my binder and such (and based on what I remember from before) so of course that could use some tweaking. Overall the MB felt pretty solid. Still not totally sure on Matter Reshaper but I barely saw him this tournament so it was hard to judge.
Sunday Modern (30ish people):
Round 1 Jund (2-1)[1-0]: This matchup is still really in our favor. I just ground out advantage, made goyfs effectively useless and slowly beat him down with excess value and dudes. I made a mistake in game 2 with threat evaluation that ended up costing me the game. (I used Anguished Unmaking on a Liliana of the Veil who was at 6 in case he topdecked an answer for my Leyline of Sanctity. I should have just used it on the Kalitas. Oh well, getting my legs back underneath me as I get used to the deck again.. it'll happen and clearly it was a hindsight mistake.)
Round 2 UW Control (0-2)[1-1]: Man both of these games were super close but I couldn't find answers either game. Game 1 was due to Collonade and 0 GQs or Maps finding their way to my hand and game 2 was Elspeth, Sun's Champion who he had in opening hand but I was unable to find either TS or Unmaking to get rid of it. I also got pretty flooded both games.
Round 3 Bant Exalted Hexproof (2-1)[2-1]: I should clarify this guys brew as he is a regular and his deck is pretty good. Essentially his goal is to T1 Heirarch, T2 Geist/Mirrian Crusader, T3 Angelic Destiny and crash in for a bazillion damage. He has cryptics, AV and such for card advantage late, not to mention all of his threats hit really hard (especially with Angelic Destiny). Game 1 I IOK his only threat but he topdecked a Mirrian Crusader. I was able to play defense for a little while but eventually ran out of Lingering Souls tokens and drew into jank. Game 2 I probably shouldn't have won. I missed several land drops after turn 3 but I kept finding Path to Exile and Anguished Unmakings. I ground him out of threats and then TKS+Reality Smasher closed the game out quickly. Game 3 had another TFB (Total F'n Blowout) play. He leads off with Hierarch into Qasali Pridemage, swing for 2. Next turn he played another Heirarch and swung for 5 with Pridemage (ow). I played out a Timely to jump back to 19 and get 3 chump blockers. I had actual answers in hand but I wanted to see if I could get him to over extend either with Angelic Destiny on the pridemage so I could path it or with one of his other 3 CMC wincons. I made a slight mistake that my opponent didn't capitalize on. When I cast Timely I was at 13 and he was at 14. I forgot he had a Horizon Canopy. He failed to realize that if he pays 1 life to float mana, I don't gain the 6 life. Luckily he missed it and I jumped way ahead. Anyway he did overextend by dropping a Mirrian Crusader. I chump and then swing in for 1 and cast Flaying Tendrils to clear the board into exile and leave him with only a couple cards in hand. I then drop a Blight Herder and he can't stop the 7 damage over 2 turns for lethal.
Round 4 Jeskai Control (2-0)[3-1]: Back in the driver's seat against control where we should be. Pretty straight forward game. Saw he had cryptics with early discard. Let him keep them and dropped threats underneath/through Cavern. Forced him to use them to tap the team and draw a card and only get 1 use out of them. Had a great play game 2. He dropped an early Stoney Silence (I used excess mana on one of my turns to play my relic anyway). We get to the stage where I have lethal on board and he plays snapcaster and targets the Cryptic. Response to the target, I use Anguished Unmaking on the Stoney Silence and blow Relic. Total blowout play. He then flashed in a Clique which I pathed, prompting him to scoop.
Tournament thoughts: Another one entrenched with UWx Control EVERYWHERE as is GBx. So far that is an amazingly good sign. Based on the pilot and variant of UWx I think we are ~50:50 overall. Planeswalkers are a bit annoying to deal with as per usual but we can play around their counter magic and spot removal. They do have board wipes so we have to be careful not to over-extend. GBx is still a good matchup even if it's not the blowout it was before (when you could curve into T5 Newlamog and feast on their tears). As we get more and more used to the meta, the SB will be more finely tuned.
Overall decklist thoughts: So while I am still not sold on Matter Reshaper. He did hit the board several times during the 2nd tournament and every single time he died he netted me a land. I like that because it is a land I wasn't drawing later and in one instance, it caught me up on a land drop I had missed. Don't know if that is worth it overall in the list and if so.. how many slots. I also am not totally sold on 2x Seagate Wreckage but it did do some work in those grindy control matchups. I will probably cut to 1 and move my Cavern of Souls up to 2x. It causes major fits for all those control decks and I'd like to see it more often. Sideboard wise, I definitely never really needed the Cages (and honestly when I put them in there, totally forgot we use Lingering Souls) so they'll likely come out for something different. Currently I am leaning towards 2 more Thoughtseizes to help with those control matchups even more. I am also considering adding more lifelink sources like Batterskull or Whip of Erebos to the list. I was running 1x each before I sold out and they were both very very good (whipping back TKS and Reality Smasher is so dirty it feels really good).
Anyway, I think the control kick will wear down a bit over the next couple of weeks as people move on from AV and Thopter Sword (which I saw around a bit but nowhere near the level of AV and GBx). Still, if the meta stays like this, I'll be very happy and this deck will do alright for itself. All but 1 of my 8 rounds was against interactive decks and while not every game was interactive (due to blowouts on occassion when you curve Discard->TKS->Reality Smasher and they have 0 answers left), there were lots of fun grindy matchups.
As always, I'm interested in yalls thoughts and opinions on the decklists as well as your own tournament results. (I still have yet to live the dream and process a Visions and kill a Jace, VP... so much value).
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Ah ok, I totally agree with all your points. How much MB discard do you run. Currently I'm at a 2:2 split on Inquisition and Thoughtseize with 2 more Thoughtseize out of the side for combo/control matchups. I do like out control matchup currently because most folks I see are running AV as their big "CA" card and not things like Sphinx Rev. Because of this, they tend to run out of answers and then are forced to durdle (not to mention side out their discard. I haven't seen much burn lately but I have 3 Leylines and 2 Timely Reinforcements to assist in that process. We have a local SCG States tournament thing coming up on Sunday and I play on taking this deck like I did to regionals. Hopefully my meta stays the same and I can get a bit luckier on my draws against Infect/Affinity. Overall it's been really really nice. I did live the dream last week and processed 2x AV on turn 4 with a Blight Herder against Grixis Thing Control.
We are susceptible to fast decks. Affinity and Infect both get pretty hosed by Lingering Souls since it lets you chump for days until you start resolving meatier threats. Affinities "out" against midrange decks with spot removal is Etched Champion which is useless against us as well due to devoid. We are a large midrange deck that should beat up on other midrange strategies and because of our structure, I think we have a fairly good control matchup as well (especially if you are running Expedition Map toolbox and can get Cavern consistently into play). Things like Tron are still problematic because we can't provide a fast enough clock to usually hose them. The exception are the rare T2 TKS T3 Smasher hands. Those can end the game swiftly and possibly disrupt them long enough that they can't start attacking your land base.
Westvale Abbey provides it's maximum value against grindy/control matchups where you use it as primarily a late game bitterblossom. It's flip side does have some other utilities as you say in certain situations but it's primary job is to give you a mana dump in games where you are getting flooded late.
Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them. Even when I answer the initial threats, I can't beat the god-tier topdecks they seem to pull against me. These are the matchups where I'd have Unmaking in hand and then die to an Inkmoth Nexus as well and see 0 GQ's somehow through the match (or if I do find one, they have find a duplicate). On paper I agree it's a very good matchup but their nut draws are still extremely hard to beat. Lingering Souls has also seemed to be extremely scarce in my draws so far. It's more just variance than anything else. I know how to play the matchup and still usually put up a fight but some things you can't control. Bear in mind we only have 6 targeted removal spells and when 2 of those are Unmaking, they can't hit manlands and cost the full 3. This is why I am considering splitting it's utility with Dismember or just bringing them in from the board for the matchups I want them in. Also the 3 life matters a lot in the quick aggro matchups where you could be paying 0 life for dismember. Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups). It will give use WW, WB or BB even under Blood Moon so we don't have to worry about it. It can also let us drop our Eldrazi onto board without tapping completely down (bear in mind if you play it on turn 3 you can then use it Path/Dismember if you need to or use it to ramp out to 5 mana on T4 even if you don't make your next land drop. It also makes manlands a bit easier to activate since you can use your "free" mana to do so if you choose. I'm not totally sold on it but it really does do a lot of work in my other deck.
My problem has been Man Lands though (primarily Inkmoth Nexus) which I can't kill with Oblivion Ring or Unmaking. In the end I'll probably go to a 1-1 split of Dismember and Anguished. It just feels really bad getting blown out by manlands with Unmaking in hand. It's also not the best anti-Blood Moon card because it requires you to have both basics out to cast (unlike Celestial Purge/Disenchant). Honestly I haven't seen Blood Moons running around my meta (only one I've seen was brought in by an affinity player which is something you rarely ever see).
As for control matchups, once you get the feeling for how to steer around it, I really like our matchup. With Cavern of Souls making all our Creatures uncounterable, Discard to hit their counters/make sure the path is clear and lands like Westvale Abbey which forces them to spend cards answering "free" threats. Patience is the key thing against Control (as you demonstrated in your report). They really can't pressure you quickly so you focus on making your land drops and forcing a threat through. I love Blight Herder in the matchup because of it's ability as well as the fact they chain really well. What I mean by that is you put 7 power of dudes on board and start cracking in with your 3 turn clock. Eventually they will be forced to sweep the board at which point you jam another out of hand. Eventually they get to the point where they need "an answer per turn" and will run out. Another thing I love about people trying UWx control is a lot of them are trying to rely on Colonnade as their win-con which is easy to kill and forces them to tap 5 mana. The folks who have more experience with UWx control (ie they have been playing it long before AV unban) are a bit trickier as they run things like Elspeth which can stall our board and provide them with a clock.
GR Tron is still an awful matchup and honestly the Eldrazitron is worse. If you can't keep them off tron they start hitting your lands quickly and have an extremely high density of threats. I haven't seen a ton of it around because most folks are testing out UW Gifts Tron so they can play Thopter-sword. Luckily we are really good at that matchup what with 4 MB Relics and such.
2x Matter Reshaper
3x Wasteland Strangler
4x Thought-knot Seer
3x Blight Herder
2x Reality Smasher
Sorceries(8):
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
Instants(6):
4x Path to Exile
2x Dismember
Artifacts(6):
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Expedition Map
1x Batterskull
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands(24):
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Cave of Koilos
3x Godless Shrine
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Shambling Vent
2x Westvale Abbey
1x Seagate Wreckage
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Waste
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Thoughtseize
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Disenchant
This is my current list. Still getting tweaked here and there as I get a feeling for what works and doesn't. Just went back to 2x Dismember over Anguished Unmaking to see if which one feels better (I've been getting really bad luck with Unmaking in hand and getting killed my man-lands).
I think Sorin is pretty core honestly. Batterskull is great but Sorin plays uber well with Blight Herder, Lingering Souls and Westvale Abbey.
So this seems like a misinterpretation of what we should use Westvale Abbey for 99% of the time. I typically use it as an EOT Bitterblossom when I have nothing better to do in grindy/control matchups. Flipping it is totally "win more" except in certain situations (like Jund who has next to 0 outs If you sac 5/6 Scion tokens to it) or Burn who just can't come back from the massive life gain if they don't have a skullcrack effect in hand. It can also rarely be used as sweeper protection if you need it. So far I've liked it because of the amount of control in my meta but it's at most a 2x.
I have never removed my Maps and still love them. I've only gotten Temple once as well. Every other time it's been to get the utility land that best suits the situation.
We are a bit of a dog at times to the Aggro decks because even the answers we do have have to be both drawn and cast/used turns 3-4. Sometimes it's just too late. I've even been losing a lot more games to Infect and Affinity than I ever remember doing so before because my luck in drawing things like Lingering Souls has been terrible. Also my lands can't decide how many they want to give me. I've had several instances where I see only 2 lands and then other games that I see all lands... sigh eventually it'll start to even out.
And then you are just better off with Leyline which I have liked anyway. I don't see a need to have both.
Totally agree that it has some merit and I do like it as a way to keep pressure on with killed TSK, Reality Smashers and Blight Herders. You can also abuse it with Wasteland Strangler as well.
Ah I was going off memory of the card. Cool that makes sense. I was assuming it was your opponents creatures.
This is solid! I may have to use this in the future. The reasons you mention is why I am also sticking with this processor list over the D&T one. I also feel like my deck has game with such a wide variety of hands/draws. I've already had games where I can T2 TKS into Smasher and turn into a beats deck as well as games where I sit back, control the board and kill with either Shambling Vents or Clerics off Abbey. I just feel like the D&T list is a little too cute and relies on you finding Vial and/or Temple to function well.
I very much enjoy my 2x Flaying Tendrils out of the board. I love Damnation but it is both a bit too slow at times as well as doesn't effectively kill good creatures like Voice or Finks. Flaying Tendrils lets you hit those fast aggro decks while feeding their exile to process later.
While I am not totally convinced that they have a spot in the list, they are a value machine against decks where you are grinding. They have always netted me a land (admittedly small sample size) which is a land that I neither drew nor had to play. I'm meh on them overall but the 2x I've been running seem fine enough as road blocks (unlike my problem with Displacer in that it can die without giving you value). Strangler is still great and I might go up to the full 4x (currently I am at 3x).
I like the SB and will likely move to something similar to it soon.
I agree that Sea Gate is a bit useless at times but in the games where it is good (vs control when you are top decking) you can churn CA and without Eye, we need to be able to draw into multiple threats. If you'd rather have a constant source, Mikoro, Center of the Sea is fine but you have to trust that your draws will be better than theirs. Definitely going to go down to a 1x Sea Gate though. Westvale Abbey is and has been amazing so far. I highly recommend trying it out.
Personally I am not very scared of Blood Moon. From what I have seen of my meta, most folks have moved away from it because folks a.) aren't playing Tron or Eldrazi, b.) Are playing a greedy manabase themselves or c.) playing a UWx control variant and either don't want to or can't play it.
I haven't had any problems so far and this is about the landbase I used when I went to Regionals with the list a while back. Marsh Flats might not be a bad idea but what do we really have that us WW or BB? Currently it's just Damnation or Wrath out of the board if you have them (not really counting Leyline because you'd rather it be free). I don't have any Marsh Flats currently but honestly my thing with fetches is that they have never felt necessary and many times felt like a hinderance. With the introduction of <C> into the costs, Cave of Koilos does everything I want and usually it's cheaper on average in life cost. Fetch->Shock->TS is 5 life, Fetch->Swamp->TS is still 3, Fetch->Swamp->IOK is 1, Fetch->Shock->IOK is 3. Compare it to Cave->TS is 3 and Cave->IOK is 1. Not having fetches also lets me run a couple more utility lands like Bojuka Bog, Cavern, Sea-gate Wreckage and Westvale. There is a common misconception that fetching thins your deck. It does but at such a minute level it takes ~20 draws to experience the difference.
I will probably drop a Sea Gate because of my experience this weekend with it (I really think I only need 1 in the list) but Westvale was very good even if it was just another threat. Almost all of my games went long enough that I could make dudes with it if I had it or wanted it. Map was also key in several matches getting me Cavern and a Bojuka Bog once to shrink a goyf from 5/6 to 3/4 and force my opponent into a bad chump block.
2x Matter Reshaper
3x Wasteland Strangler
4x Thought-knot Seer
4x Blight Herder
2x Reality Smasher
Sorceries(8):
2x Thoughtseize
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
Instants(6):
4x Path to Exile
2x Anguished Unmaking
Artifacts(6):
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Expedition Map
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands(24):
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Cave of Koilos
3x Godless Shrine
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Shambling Vent
2x Westvale Abbey
2x Seagate Wreckage
1x Cavern of Souls
1x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Waste
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Flaying Tendrils
1x Bearer of Silence
1x Disenchant
I have some thoughts on changes to the overall decklist/sideboard that I'll get to after both tournament results and reflections:
FNM Modern (51 people):
Round 1 Jeskai Control(2-0)[1-0]: Yay for folks overzealously trying to jam 4x Ancestral Visions into everything they can! Game 1 I cracked Map to get Cavern of Souls and Strangled AV killing one of my Abbey tokens. I knew he had double bolt in hand (which Strangler swiftly ate) but I'll take that 2 for 1 all day. I then made 1/1 Clerics with Westvaleblossum and slowly beat him to death (I had a nifty play where he attempted to Helix 1 of my 4 dudes, I path my own guy. He remands his helix and attempts to helix another dude. I use my 2nd path... he was at 2. GG. Game 2 I used T1 and 2 discard to rip his Path and Leak. T3 I play TKS and exile his boardwipe. T4 I drop Reality Smasher and start wrecking face. He couldn't come up with answers fast enough.
Round 2 Junk (1-2)[1-1]: These games were fairly even all things considered but my opponent topdecked a LOT better than I did by drawing multiple Rhinos in a row while I drew lands. Oh well, these things happen. Still a good matchup overall for us though. Take the licks where they come I suppose. On the plus side. His goyfs were the cutest 0/1's you'd have ever seen.
Round 3 Jund (2-0)[2-1]: Absolutely out-valued and annihilated this poor sap. He hadn't ever played against the processor Eldrazi before either. Game 2 I forced out 2 Blight Herders and then sacrificed 5 of the scion tokens for Ormendahl. Turns out that Jund has 0 answers to a 9/7 flying lifelink indestructible dude when you still have a Herder and a Scion token for Liliana protection and they are in topdeck mode (I knew this and that is why I flipped him).
Round 4 Mono-red Prowess Pumps (1-2)[2-2]: Quick fast aggro plan with Titan Strength on Swiftspears followed by Temur Battle Rages. Game 3 I couldn't find spot removal and he topdecked a well-timed Blood Moon to finish me off (had he not topdecked it, I had Sorin coming down with 3 tokens I had just gotten from Timely Reinforcements). Oh well, take your licks where they be.
Overall tournament thoughts: Lots of control and GBx running around. It felt really really good. Seeing the first guys reaction as he realized he was playing against Eldrazi despite the ban (and then essentially having 4 dead cards in his 75) felt really good. My sideboard was kind of just thrown together from what I had in my binder and such (and based on what I remember from before) so of course that could use some tweaking. Overall the MB felt pretty solid. Still not totally sure on Matter Reshaper but I barely saw him this tournament so it was hard to judge.
Sunday Modern (30ish people):
Round 1 Jund (2-1)[1-0]: This matchup is still really in our favor. I just ground out advantage, made goyfs effectively useless and slowly beat him down with excess value and dudes. I made a mistake in game 2 with threat evaluation that ended up costing me the game. (I used Anguished Unmaking on a Liliana of the Veil who was at 6 in case he topdecked an answer for my Leyline of Sanctity. I should have just used it on the Kalitas. Oh well, getting my legs back underneath me as I get used to the deck again.. it'll happen and clearly it was a hindsight mistake.)
Round 2 UW Control (0-2)[1-1]: Man both of these games were super close but I couldn't find answers either game. Game 1 was due to Collonade and 0 GQs or Maps finding their way to my hand and game 2 was Elspeth, Sun's Champion who he had in opening hand but I was unable to find either TS or Unmaking to get rid of it. I also got pretty flooded both games.
Round 3 Bant Exalted Hexproof (2-1)[2-1]: I should clarify this guys brew as he is a regular and his deck is pretty good. Essentially his goal is to T1 Heirarch, T2 Geist/Mirrian Crusader, T3 Angelic Destiny and crash in for a bazillion damage. He has cryptics, AV and such for card advantage late, not to mention all of his threats hit really hard (especially with Angelic Destiny). Game 1 I IOK his only threat but he topdecked a Mirrian Crusader. I was able to play defense for a little while but eventually ran out of Lingering Souls tokens and drew into jank. Game 2 I probably shouldn't have won. I missed several land drops after turn 3 but I kept finding Path to Exile and Anguished Unmakings. I ground him out of threats and then TKS+Reality Smasher closed the game out quickly. Game 3 had another TFB (Total F'n Blowout) play. He leads off with Hierarch into Qasali Pridemage, swing for 2. Next turn he played another Heirarch and swung for 5 with Pridemage (ow). I played out a Timely to jump back to 19 and get 3 chump blockers. I had actual answers in hand but I wanted to see if I could get him to over extend either with Angelic Destiny on the pridemage so I could path it or with one of his other 3 CMC wincons. I made a slight mistake that my opponent didn't capitalize on. When I cast Timely I was at 13 and he was at 14. I forgot he had a Horizon Canopy. He failed to realize that if he pays 1 life to float mana, I don't gain the 6 life. Luckily he missed it and I jumped way ahead. Anyway he did overextend by dropping a Mirrian Crusader. I chump and then swing in for 1 and cast Flaying Tendrils to clear the board into exile and leave him with only a couple cards in hand. I then drop a Blight Herder and he can't stop the 7 damage over 2 turns for lethal.
Round 4 Jeskai Control (2-0)[3-1]: Back in the driver's seat against control where we should be. Pretty straight forward game. Saw he had cryptics with early discard. Let him keep them and dropped threats underneath/through Cavern. Forced him to use them to tap the team and draw a card and only get 1 use out of them. Had a great play game 2. He dropped an early Stoney Silence (I used excess mana on one of my turns to play my relic anyway). We get to the stage where I have lethal on board and he plays snapcaster and targets the Cryptic. Response to the target, I use Anguished Unmaking on the Stoney Silence and blow Relic. Total blowout play. He then flashed in a Clique which I pathed, prompting him to scoop.
Tournament thoughts: Another one entrenched with UWx Control EVERYWHERE as is GBx. So far that is an amazingly good sign. Based on the pilot and variant of UWx I think we are ~50:50 overall. Planeswalkers are a bit annoying to deal with as per usual but we can play around their counter magic and spot removal. They do have board wipes so we have to be careful not to over-extend. GBx is still a good matchup even if it's not the blowout it was before (when you could curve into T5 Newlamog and feast on their tears). As we get more and more used to the meta, the SB will be more finely tuned.
Overall decklist thoughts: So while I am still not sold on Matter Reshaper. He did hit the board several times during the 2nd tournament and every single time he died he netted me a land. I like that because it is a land I wasn't drawing later and in one instance, it caught me up on a land drop I had missed. Don't know if that is worth it overall in the list and if so.. how many slots. I also am not totally sold on 2x Seagate Wreckage but it did do some work in those grindy control matchups. I will probably cut to 1 and move my Cavern of Souls up to 2x. It causes major fits for all those control decks and I'd like to see it more often. Sideboard wise, I definitely never really needed the Cages (and honestly when I put them in there, totally forgot we use Lingering Souls) so they'll likely come out for something different. Currently I am leaning towards 2 more Thoughtseizes to help with those control matchups even more. I am also considering adding more lifelink sources like Batterskull or Whip of Erebos to the list. I was running 1x each before I sold out and they were both very very good (whipping back TKS and Reality Smasher is so dirty it feels really good).
Anyway, I think the control kick will wear down a bit over the next couple of weeks as people move on from AV and Thopter Sword (which I saw around a bit but nowhere near the level of AV and GBx). Still, if the meta stays like this, I'll be very happy and this deck will do alright for itself. All but 1 of my 8 rounds was against interactive decks and while not every game was interactive (due to blowouts on occassion when you curve Discard->TKS->Reality Smasher and they have 0 answers left), there were lots of fun grindy matchups.
As always, I'm interested in yalls thoughts and opinions on the decklists as well as your own tournament results. (I still have yet to live the dream and process a Visions and kill a Jace, VP... so much value).