Sorry, my mistake. I thought your post was asking for feedback and discussion, not just a pronouncement that your decisions are infalliable and an opportunity for you to sarc down anyone who dares suggest your decisions might not all have been the ideal ones. Thanks for blessing us with the perfect deck, and we might as well lock this thread now that it has been found and criticism of it will only be attacked with sarcasm.
Read your first sentences of each paragraph above ("So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument?"), and see why it comes off as snarky sarcasm and not a willingness to engage in actual discussion. I provided reasoning why I don't like to use those cards, I didn't sarcastally mock you for your ideas like you did for mine. But you had to drag us into the gutter so here we are.
After this I'm not going to respond about this anymore, but your original post basically said the idea was crap and should not be played in this deck and gave a theoretical example of a ultimately bad play on copter as why it shouldn't be played with a bunch of hand waving about taking out two cards that didn't even add to the devotion count and ruining the deck. That E1 was fully necessary and should never be changed or that in adding copter to balance out the cards that later on become less relevant was a bad idea. Or at least that's my interpretation of your post, I could very well be wrong. I did counter rebuttal alongside as giving relevant examples of other situations that can be just as relevant for copter inclusion and the reasoning behind it as well. I'll concede I probably was a bit snarky but every time somebody tries to suggest removing E1 or some other upgrade you kinda turn off as well, saying it wont work without any plan to test the changes to see if they wont.
@ lord
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk isn't bad but I think you would have to have gut shot in the deck so that on turn 1 you can alter it best, and while you can pump him and make him unblockable you have to do so in a very telegraphed way. Which Id rather see where you need to pump before I need to pump just because the ability is the way it is. Hitting it with a rancor is neat don't get me wrong but Id rather not just sit on it waiting for it, or waiting to hit somebody for it post turn 2. Maybe as a pair somewhere in a list but not as a 4 off.
My biggest point against E1 is that it seems you have to play around E1 or it wont work, and is a extremely bad top deck after turn 1. Narnam is basically add a few fetches to your deck, and hey he can be online as soon as turn 1 and later if they chump kill something or if they kill something of yours on your turn it still gets a +1. Avatar only counts the amount of creatures in play with a single 1/1 counter on them not the amount of 1/1 counters. Realistically how many times does E1 actually hit past being a 3/3? It doesn't even have much of a personal penetration aid and shrinks if you need to save it.
@thatmarkguy
So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? Its only a pair of cards and it replaces NOTHING else in the deck that gives devotion that would be in its way, alongside fixing a issue where late game one drops can be more relevant. I mean the reason death and taxes play it is pretty much the same since they can take a Thraben Inspector and copter away life without taking more relevant threats away from the planned goals.
And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument? How bout the aspect a flyer when they don't have any flying blocks argument as a counterpoint.
Well I've been thinking of Narnam Renegade instead of E1, cause getting it to 2/3 with revolt is much easier and the death touch is better later on if you need to chump a non killable fatty or a small annoying threat. That would save Avatar. Another thing I was thinking of is taking out the mainboard dismembers and adding in two smuggler's copter so that things like Narnam and dryad can do some more push later on and if need be some card filtering.
The new elf would of course go where Baloth is and I might add another Rhonas and trim down something for another since the new elf would auto awaken the Rhonas.
Eh I figured that it was too pushed to be anything other than rare really. Admittedly the CC will keep the price down since unless green gets a lot more goodies hitting GGG just for this will be fairly hard to get to. Unless a deck in standard can be built around this.
I personally would stop at 5cc creatures and not many of those even, if doing stompy. At 6cc your going a little too deep into midrange for my liking. I will say that the woodland bellower idea is interesting since you could pull any singleton in the deck 3cc or lower. Decent toolbox card if nothing else.
What? Rubbing your opponent the wrong way buying expensive cards?
I said ‘proponents’, not ‘opponents’.
Budget accessibility IS one of the selling (ha!) points of this deck
Yeah but your selling this deck like its a SET thing. Budget builds are fine but maybe explore stompy in a different direction? Maybe going into a midrange mono green stompy build with bigger back end than E1 and dryad could net more wins? There are other cards out there than E1 and dryad, sure they aren't as initially aggroy but some of the turn 3 plays on turn 2 are pretty damming to get rid of. I mean I though the whole idea for primers was to see what new sets offer and develop hopefully newer strategies that can compete with other decks?
I ask this, how many times recently has the current stompy build placed in top 15? or top 10?
The way we usually play Stompy he doesn’t show up on 2. Most builds in this thread don’t run any mana dorks at all. And once we start playing 1/1 creatures that don’t inherently get bigger we’re cutting into our relevant threat density.
Might change though considering this and a Noble Hierarch equals a 6/5 on turn 3 without mini blocks, add in aspect of hydra and it gets gruesome quickly.
Way too three drop heavy even with mana dorks. Also you need to hit a minimum 22 lands, and if you keep high end plays 23 would be better. Ghalta should only be run at 1 cause while he will win if he sticks he's definetly the win more variety of card and getting both in one hand would suck. 20 lands and tireless tracker don't work even with fetches and you wont be in a position to pop the clues when you need/want to since most of the time your mana will be tapped down from regular plays regardless. Cramming in coco like your trying might help, but coco really hates didlly creatures like dorks and hitting 4 mana would be hard to do with the setup.
Well wouldn't base 23 lands be enough for a 4 pack of BBE. It seems it hits the middle ground as long as your not trying to put CoCo alongside. The dorks idea might get viable in a 4 pack depending on what we surround it with or even applying a kird ape/nactal instead of a dryad as a 1 drop so its more relvant than a E1 if we happen to cascade into it? Maybe birds instead of mystics or if we do use Hierarch just using the 4 set of Hierarch. Many many options to figure out.
My thinking exactly. You know what's better than 4 mana for 9 hasty power requiring a 2-color manabase? 4 mana for 12 hasty power in monocolor.
If we're playing 4 cost spells (something I'm still hesitant on), I still think CoCo beats BBE.
But BBE isn't just always getting creature if your tuning a deck. Its also getting pump, enchantment and likely damage spells for free. CoCo is great but it only gets creatures. BBE is something a bit different and to assume your not going to redesign a deck when you splash red in and the accompanying removal and options it opens seems narrow minded. Does it need to totally replace the current stompy? Probably not, but this isn't just the mono green stompy thread and you don't poo poo on the folks that splash white or black. Why not try a build with BBE first and see what variables float up first before you condemn a 4cc card. Better to try and test first than just say I don't like 4cc cards and walk away.
For devotion stompy no, your quite right. For a red green variant atarka's command and lightning bolt with BBE would be awesome with leatherback or some other chunky three drop. It would be the 2cc and the 1cc spots that would have to be decided. That and the amount of BBE to CC ratio the deck could afford. I personally wonder if hellspark elemental and strangle root can be played together to justify both together.
But this really isn't a jace meta yet. Jace is a good card yes, but its slow in comparison to a lot of decks. Until some midrange deck can use him effectively against a good chunk of the meta matchups, don't freak out. Also there are answers that were not around when he was initially created.
As I've said before the card we need to be more careful about is blood braid. Its pretty much a COCO but for spells other than just creatures. Its either a roadblock and another roadblock, or a roadblock and a removal. Don't think of the 3/2 body as small thing, think of it as more as a total converted cc of 7 max spells that can ruin your day.
On the argument about boggart ram-gang don't forget about wither. Citing the above angler, tarm, and thought not, if they do block it brings them down into a much smaller range of creature since wither applies -1/-1 counters. Now is it explosively great...no. But if they do decide to block and you have some burn to back it up, if you decided to splash in red, it can be a killer. Perma -3/-3 is killer to a lot the chunkier critters.
That and when he was initially introduced there were less answers to him. I mean black has min three answer cards now. They aren't always the greatest but dreadbore could see more play. BBE on the other hand is the one we REALLY want to either splice in or be cautious of. The ability to come in and either add another roadblock or top cast another removal without paying for it can be brutal.
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After this I'm not going to respond about this anymore, but your original post basically said the idea was crap and should not be played in this deck and gave a theoretical example of a ultimately bad play on copter as why it shouldn't be played with a bunch of hand waving about taking out two cards that didn't even add to the devotion count and ruining the deck. That E1 was fully necessary and should never be changed or that in adding copter to balance out the cards that later on become less relevant was a bad idea. Or at least that's my interpretation of your post, I could very well be wrong. I did counter rebuttal alongside as giving relevant examples of other situations that can be just as relevant for copter inclusion and the reasoning behind it as well. I'll concede I probably was a bit snarky but every time somebody tries to suggest removing E1 or some other upgrade you kinda turn off as well, saying it wont work without any plan to test the changes to see if they wont.
@ lord
Skarrgan Pit-Skulk isn't bad but I think you would have to have gut shot in the deck so that on turn 1 you can alter it best, and while you can pump him and make him unblockable you have to do so in a very telegraphed way. Which Id rather see where you need to pump before I need to pump just because the ability is the way it is. Hitting it with a rancor is neat don't get me wrong but Id rather not just sit on it waiting for it, or waiting to hit somebody for it post turn 2. Maybe as a pair somewhere in a list but not as a 4 off.
So 3/3 flying threats that filter are bad? Its only a pair of cards and it replaces NOTHING else in the deck that gives devotion that would be in its way, alongside fixing a issue where late game one drops can be more relevant. I mean the reason death and taxes play it is pretty much the same since they can take a Thraben Inspector and copter away life without taking more relevant threats away from the planned goals.
And seriously the rancor a thing that doesn't become a permanent argument? How bout the aspect a flyer when they don't have any flying blocks argument as a counterpoint.
The new elf would of course go where Baloth is and I might add another Rhonas and trim down something for another since the new elf would auto awaken the Rhonas.
4 Narnam Renegade
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Dryad Militant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Leatherback Baloth
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
1 Ghalta, Primal Hunger
Enchantment
4 Rancor
8 Forest
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
Artifact
2 Smuggler's Copter
Instant
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Aspect of Hydra
2 Shapers' Sanctuary
2 Pithing Needle
1 Bow of Nylea
2 Deglamer
1 Feed the Clan
2 Natural State
1 Pulse of Murasa
4 Fatal Push
Yeah but your selling this deck like its a SET thing. Budget builds are fine but maybe explore stompy in a different direction? Maybe going into a midrange mono green stompy build with bigger back end than E1 and dryad could net more wins? There are other cards out there than E1 and dryad, sure they aren't as initially aggroy but some of the turn 3 plays on turn 2 are pretty damming to get rid of. I mean I though the whole idea for primers was to see what new sets offer and develop hopefully newer strategies that can compete with other decks?
I ask this, how many times recently has the current stompy build placed in top 15? or top 10?
Way too three drop heavy even with mana dorks. Also you need to hit a minimum 22 lands, and if you keep high end plays 23 would be better. Ghalta should only be run at 1 cause while he will win if he sticks he's definetly the win more variety of card and getting both in one hand would suck. 20 lands and tireless tracker don't work even with fetches and you wont be in a position to pop the clues when you need/want to since most of the time your mana will be tapped down from regular plays regardless. Cramming in coco like your trying might help, but coco really hates didlly creatures like dorks and hitting 4 mana would be hard to do with the setup.
this might be more optimal
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Strangleroot Geist
2x Rhonas the Indomitable
4x Steel Leaf Champion
1x Ghalta, Primal Hunger
4x Rancor
3x Fatal push
3x Vines of Vastwood
4x Blooming Marsh
6x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
1x Misty Rainforest
1x Treetop Village
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
But BBE isn't just always getting creature if your tuning a deck. Its also getting pump, enchantment and likely damage spells for free. CoCo is great but it only gets creatures. BBE is something a bit different and to assume your not going to redesign a deck when you splash red in and the accompanying removal and options it opens seems narrow minded. Does it need to totally replace the current stompy? Probably not, but this isn't just the mono green stompy thread and you don't poo poo on the folks that splash white or black. Why not try a build with BBE first and see what variables float up first before you condemn a 4cc card. Better to try and test first than just say I don't like 4cc cards and walk away.
As I've said before the card we need to be more careful about is blood braid. Its pretty much a COCO but for spells other than just creatures. Its either a roadblock and another roadblock, or a roadblock and a removal. Don't think of the 3/2 body as small thing, think of it as more as a total converted cc of 7 max spells that can ruin your day.