Hmmm, FortyTwo's Frogifyed Treacherous Blessing plan looks interesting - maybe we can turn a whole bunch of Thaumabrooms into Treacherous Blessings, get copies, and then turn them back, at the cost of a fixed amount of life? The issue I'm having is, if we have to cast a spell to turn them back after the Thaumabrooms are already Treacherous Blessings, then we will trigger a lot of life loss triggers. So we need to either use an ability, or have a spell already on the stack to put an enchantment into play. Tibalt's Trickery wouldn't work though, since it would cause the enchantment to be cast. I was thinking something like Auspicious Starrix, but I don't know if that is safe with the combo.
If we can turn them back without paying life though, then with a Frogifyed TB we wouldn't have to pay any life at all to loop. So maybe no Frogify? Then we need to remove the TB's ability from the battlefield sometimes so that we can do the lower level stuff without having to pay life. But Dance of the Manse requires white mana, which we would like to use higher up. True Polymorph could change it to something different, but then we can't change it back without anther animated TB.
What about a banisher, like Banishing Light? The Trickster-God's Heist can exchange two creatures, but after Trecherous Blessing comes back it won't be a creature anymore. TTGH's second ability can exchange noncreature permanents, but we don't have the ability to proc those with this setup. So I don't know.
With a given amount of layers, the next best thing to do is to maximize how many times a Moraug triggers via landfall prior to combat. We can use our and the opponent's starting life totals to help with that, with the opponent's life taking priority. Peer into the Abyss runs counter to that, so it makes sense to use the other avenues to get sufficient card draw in the opponent rather than pay our life. If Peer into the Abyss isn't needed for the start then, it is probably better to use Sea Gate, Reborn for life into blue mana, since that gives roughly X/3 mana for X life rather than log_2 X mana.
I'll keep looking for more layers, with an eye towards the other mana colors. I think our use of green mana is maybe nonessential, and there is probably a way to still go off using the colorless mana engines, so we should be open to layer possibilities from green mana.
Then we need to take care of mana - I'm thinking Azusa, Lost but Seeking could help? We could possibly mutate it and get more copies via the Thaumabroom combo.
Hmm yeah, perhaps that Chandra could work with the mutate/kicker stage we currently have? We have to worry about the possibility of casting a kicked Into the Roil and then drawing and casting casting cards we need for free, but it might work out.
I'm worried about Jaspera/Magda/Faeburrow Elder getting us cheap mana, but I guess if we can get a stage going without haste, those wouldn't be a problem.
Hmmm, 32 mana is a lot - it feels like that will take 3 turns probably? I agree with a turn 5 stage over turn 3 layers, but if it takes until turn 7 or 8, I think I lean the other way. How do we go about getting all that mana / putting all those permanents into play?
Hmmm, maybe. If we could get three Tibalt's Trickery by turn 3, we could mill 9 cards, plus 2 with Eye Collector. We need another mana on turn 3 though.
For the non-Trickery version, could Mordenkainen be safe again? That could be the turn 4 drop. (We would have to replace Vorinclex with a 5-drop though.)
In both cases of course, we still need the mana to put all the cards we get into play.
Yeah, I think I would lean towards turn 5 stage over turn 3 layers as well.
But, the Jasper/Magda start can generate mana too cheaply, unless we avoid getting haste. For that, we would need to replace Scaled Herbalist, and also we can't attack with Planar Ally or similar unless we can have some restricted form of haste.
Edit: Damn, getting a fast start looks hard, it seems like any form of draw or fetch can mess with the stage.
Hmm, that's too bad. So getting started is the biggest problem right now.
I guess we have a bit of a decision - it looks like we can get 20+ layers by turn 3, or we can get a stage, but it's gonna take at least turn 5 or 6? I do like getting that stage though.
That's just with one of the four other colors. The other colors are still hard to use, since we can generally cast spells for free; so it's looking like the Vintage deck, we need to use X spells or activated abilities. I supppose something like Adventure spells could also work, since they get exiled and we need to spend mana to cast them from exile. I guess I have to look through them.
One possibility is if we can switch out Scaled Herbalist for something that doesn't require haste. Then, we could use Kenrith, the Returned King to use red mana to give all creatures haste. We could then use say Murasa Rootgrazer to bounce and replay our Island many times. Just one more layer, although there may be a way to get more with haste.
Edit: As far as triggering Thaumabroom goes, maybe an enchantment of CMC 3 or less, which we can destroy cheaply? We can either have a cheap way to destroy enchantments directly, or use an aura and have a cheap way to destroy a creature or artifact.
Looking at subsequent layers for this stage, it seems that there is not much room left. Treasure tokens moot all colors, we can cheaply draw, return any nonland permanent to our hand, and shuffle cards from our graveyard into our library, so not really any room in terms of restricting card usage. Also, I guess we can't have Ormar, Planar Ally.
What we do have is life, snow mana, and counters (probably +1/+1 counters). I don't think we have a way to kill creatures currently, so that is a possible trigger to use, among others.
Then we need to convert life into blue mana somehow. Sea Gate, Reborn will get us a blue mana for 3 life, provided we have a way to recycle the land. Tazeem Raptor and Chalune, Teller of Tales should work? It would also be nice to get an additional layer for blue mana; getting a lot of copies of Glittering Frost would do it, but I don't know how to do that.
We could also gain a lot of +1/+1 counters many times when we venture into a room, but the cards that remove +1/+1 counters also provide +1/+1 counters, so I don't see how to take advantage of this.
We could also go Moraug into Jorn into snow permanents, but I don't see how to get as many layers with that.
We can perhaps investigate how to free up more room with the stage - getting blue mana only rather than Treasure tokens would be really nice, is there some way to use lands in the stage?
Edit: Hmm, the way we currently get a blue mana is to draw an ELemental Masterpiece, discard it for a Treasure token, and shuffle it into the library with Quandrix Command. Would not the same thing work with an Island, using Chulane to put it into play, and an animated Waking the Trolls to destroy it?
Hmmm, I don't see any mana artifacts that would make the above 24-layer sequence work. But, I think I can get 22 by switching things up a bit. (One would think that we can get 22 by taking the 24-layer sequence, and removing the artifact part, but I couldn't find a way to make it connect; we need a creature that generates white mana, or else a black spell that gives the opponent a lot of life.)
We can match the current ending by attacking with many copies of Planar Ally, allowing us to venture into the dungeon many times. We can get a lot of abilities triggered from that, but the one we are focusing on is creating a Treasure token. (both Dungeon of the Mad Mage and Lost Mine of Phandelver have that; I guess LMoD is better since it has fewer rooms to go through) Each time we enter the Treasure token room, we trigger the ability many times thanks to Hama Pasha, Ruin Seeker. Then, each Treasure token taps for a lot of red mana. Then, we can replace Skull Prophet with Sculptor of Winter, and use Sculptor of Winter to untap a snow land that produces white.
So
0 - Sacrificing a creature allows us to double our Thaumabrooms
1 - Resolving a contellation trigger allows us to turn many Thaumaturges into sacrifice creatures
2 - Activating Skyway Sniper will put an enchantment into play
3 - Tapping a Forest will generate a bunch of green mana
4 - Casting a creature spell will allow us to put a Forest onto the battlefield many times, thanks to Chulane, Teller of Tales
4 - Activating Steelbane Hydra will allow us to recycle Omen of the Forge, destroying our creature
5 - A Karok Wrangler trigger can put many +1/+1 counters on Steelbane Hydra
6 - Copying an instant can put many Karok Wrangler triggers on the stack
7 - Casting an instant will create many copies
8 - Casting Once and Future will bring the above instant back many times
9 - Tapping a blue painland will generate a lot of blue mana
10 - Resolving a Chandra's Incinerator trigger will gain us a lot of life thanks to Honor Troll
11 - Dealing the opponent damage will trigger many copies of Chandra's Incinerator
12 - A copy of Heliod's Intervention will gain the opponent a lot of life
13 - Casting Heliod's Intervention will create many copies
14 - A snow land can tap for a bunch of white mana
15 - A copy of Lorehold Command can give a lot of copies of Sculptor of Winter haste
16 - Casting Lorehold Command will create a lot of copies
17 - Casting Tibalt's Trickery will allow us to cast Lorehold Command many times
18 - We can put many copies of spells below the initial Tibalt's Trickery
19 - Tapping a Treasure token will generate a bunch of red mana
20 - Venturing into a room gets many copies thanks to Hama Pasha, Ruin Seeker
21 - Attacking with many copies of Planar Ally allows us to venture into the dungeon many times
22 - We can get a lot of combat phases thanks to Moraug, Fury of Akoum
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If we can turn them back without paying life though, then with a Frogifyed TB we wouldn't have to pay any life at all to loop. So maybe no Frogify? Then we need to remove the TB's ability from the battlefield sometimes so that we can do the lower level stuff without having to pay life. But Dance of the Manse requires white mana, which we would like to use higher up. True Polymorph could change it to something different, but then we can't change it back without anther animated TB.
What about a banisher, like Banishing Light? The Trickster-God's Heist can exchange two creatures, but after Trecherous Blessing comes back it won't be a creature anymore. TTGH's second ability can exchange noncreature permanents, but we don't have the ability to proc those with this setup. So I don't know.
So losing the copying for Heliod's Intervention means we lose the extra layer we get from Kinnan, Bonder Prodigy, so we stay at 8 layers. Without copying, we don't even need to give Honor Troll to the opponent, so if that is what True Polymorph is for it can be removed.
With a given amount of layers, the next best thing to do is to maximize how many times a Moraug triggers via landfall prior to combat. We can use our and the opponent's starting life totals to help with that, with the opponent's life taking priority. Peer into the Abyss runs counter to that, so it makes sense to use the other avenues to get sufficient card draw in the opponent rather than pay our life. If Peer into the Abyss isn't needed for the start then, it is probably better to use Sea Gate, Reborn for life into blue mana, since that gives roughly X/3 mana for X life rather than log_2 X mana.
I'll keep looking for more layers, with an eye towards the other mana colors. I think our use of green mana is maybe nonessential, and there is probably a way to still go off using the colorless mana engines, so we should be open to layer possibilities from green mana.
Edit: Oh, I guess Sea Gate, Reborn comes with Sea Gate Restoration, which is not good perhaps?
Then we need to take care of mana - I'm thinking Azusa, Lost but Seeking could help? We could possibly mutate it and get more copies via the Thaumabroom combo.
For the non-Trickery version, could Mordenkainen be safe again? That could be the turn 4 drop. (We would have to replace Vorinclex with a 5-drop though.)
In both cases of course, we still need the mana to put all the cards we get into play.
But, the Jasper/Magda start can generate mana too cheaply, unless we avoid getting haste. For that, we would need to replace Scaled Herbalist, and also we can't attack with Planar Ally or similar unless we can have some restricted form of haste.
Edit: Damn, getting a fast start looks hard, it seems like any form of draw or fetch can mess with the stage.
I guess we have a bit of a decision - it looks like we can get 20+ layers by turn 3, or we can get a stage, but it's gonna take at least turn 5 or 6? I do like getting that stage though.
Edit: Perhaps Chandra, Heart of Fire? It does allow us to cast Tibalt's Trickery a bunch of times, so it might not be safe.
Layer 1: Each lifelinked Chandra's Incinerator trigger gains us a lot of life, thanks to Honor Troll.
Layer 2: Dealing damage to the opponent can trigger a lot of Chandra's Incinerators.
Layer 3: A copy of Heliod's Intervention can gain the opponent a lot of life, thanks to Honor Troll.
Layer 4: Casting Heliod's Intervention gets many copies using Teach By Example.
Layer 5: Creating a Treasure token turns into many tokens thanks to Academy Manufacturer.
Layer 6: Venturing into the dungeon creates many triggers thanks to Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker.
Layer 7: Attacking allows us to venture many times thanks to Planar Ally.
Layer 8: We can get many combat phases thanks to Moraug, Fury of Akoum.
That's just with one of the four other colors. The other colors are still hard to use, since we can generally cast spells for free; so it's looking like the Vintage deck, we need to use X spells or activated abilities. I supppose something like Adventure spells could also work, since they get exiled and we need to spend mana to cast them from exile. I guess I have to look through them.
One possibility is if we can switch out Scaled Herbalist for something that doesn't require haste. Then, we could use Kenrith, the Returned King to use red mana to give all creatures haste. We could then use say Murasa Rootgrazer to bounce and replay our Island many times. Just one more layer, although there may be a way to get more with haste.
Edit: As far as triggering Thaumabroom goes, maybe an enchantment of CMC 3 or less, which we can destroy cheaply? We can either have a cheap way to destroy enchantments directly, or use an aura and have a cheap way to destroy a creature or artifact.
What we do have is life, snow mana, and counters (probably +1/+1 counters). I don't think we have a way to kill creatures currently, so that is a possible trigger to use, among others.
One possibility is:
Layer 1: whenever a Pest from Sedgemoor Witch dies, we can gain a lot of life thanks to Honor Troll.
Layer 2: Whenever we enter Oubliette from Tomb of Annihilation, it triggers many times thanks to Hama Pashar, Ruin Seeker.
Layer 3: Whwenever we attack, we can venture into the dungeon many times thanks to Planar Ally.
Layer 4: We get many combat phases thanks to Moraug, Fury of Akoum.
Then we need to convert life into blue mana somehow. Sea Gate, Reborn will get us a blue mana for 3 life, provided we have a way to recycle the land. Tazeem Raptor and Chalune, Teller of Tales should work? It would also be nice to get an additional layer for blue mana; getting a lot of copies of Glittering Frost would do it, but I don't know how to do that.
We could also gain a lot of +1/+1 counters many times when we venture into a room, but the cards that remove +1/+1 counters also provide +1/+1 counters, so I don't see how to take advantage of this.
We could also go Moraug into Jorn into snow permanents, but I don't see how to get as many layers with that.
We can perhaps investigate how to free up more room with the stage - getting blue mana only rather than Treasure tokens would be really nice, is there some way to use lands in the stage?
Edit: Hmm, the way we currently get a blue mana is to draw an ELemental Masterpiece, discard it for a Treasure token, and shuffle it into the library with Quandrix Command. Would not the same thing work with an Island, using Chulane to put it into play, and an animated Waking the Trolls to destroy it?
Yeah, I think looking for a stage that allows for Tibalt's Trickery is the way to go now.
We can match the current ending by attacking with many copies of Planar Ally, allowing us to venture into the dungeon many times. We can get a lot of abilities triggered from that, but the one we are focusing on is creating a Treasure token. (both Dungeon of the Mad Mage and Lost Mine of Phandelver have that; I guess LMoD is better since it has fewer rooms to go through) Each time we enter the Treasure token room, we trigger the ability many times thanks to Hama Pasha, Ruin Seeker. Then, each Treasure token taps for a lot of red mana. Then, we can replace Skull Prophet with Sculptor of Winter, and use Sculptor of Winter to untap a snow land that produces white.
So
0 - Sacrificing a creature allows us to double our Thaumabrooms
1 - Resolving a contellation trigger allows us to turn many Thaumaturges into sacrifice creatures
2 - Activating Skyway Sniper will put an enchantment into play
3 - Tapping a Forest will generate a bunch of green mana
4 - Casting a creature spell will allow us to put a Forest onto the battlefield many times, thanks to Chulane, Teller of Tales
4 - Activating Steelbane Hydra will allow us to recycle Omen of the Forge, destroying our creature
5 - A Karok Wrangler trigger can put many +1/+1 counters on Steelbane Hydra
6 - Copying an instant can put many Karok Wrangler triggers on the stack
7 - Casting an instant will create many copies
8 - Casting Once and Future will bring the above instant back many times
9 - Tapping a blue painland will generate a lot of blue mana
10 - Resolving a Chandra's Incinerator trigger will gain us a lot of life thanks to Honor Troll
11 - Dealing the opponent damage will trigger many copies of Chandra's Incinerator
12 - A copy of Heliod's Intervention will gain the opponent a lot of life
13 - Casting Heliod's Intervention will create many copies
14 - A snow land can tap for a bunch of white mana
15 - A copy of Lorehold Command can give a lot of copies of Sculptor of Winter haste
16 - Casting Lorehold Command will create a lot of copies
17 - Casting Tibalt's Trickery will allow us to cast Lorehold Command many times
18 - We can put many copies of spells below the initial Tibalt's Trickery
19 - Tapping a Treasure token will generate a bunch of red mana
20 - Venturing into a room gets many copies thanks to Hama Pasha, Ruin Seeker
21 - Attacking with many copies of Planar Ally allows us to venture into the dungeon many times
22 - We can get a lot of combat phases thanks to Moraug, Fury of Akoum