At first I wasn't sure about this one since discarding is not something I like to do. On the other hand, a 3/3 flyer with no downside for 3cmc is always useful and the ability can be a backup plan. The River kelpie combo convinced me though, thats an awesome find
There are also some upsides to the ability even if Marchesa is also in play; casting a Mulldrifter for its evoke cost, nets you 3 cards eot for 3 mana. Orrrrr having Sidisi, Undead Vizier exploit itself; discard 1, tutor 2! (that does work right?)
The sidisi one works, the mulldrifter one doesn't. When you evoke it is immediately sacrificed when it is put into play. Olivia's trigger is a when so it is put on the stack when mulldrifter enters play but by the time it would get a chance to resolve mulldrifter is already dead.
Anyway fine, I see your points, I'm definitely convinced to try her.
So, we've got a 5 Star General in Marchesa, A 4 Star General in Mikaeus, A 3 Star General in Drana, and now a 2 Star General in Olivia.
Maybe. I'm not in love with her. I was until I realized you had to discard a card every time you wanted to use that ability. We have guys coming in and out of play all the time, most of which are cheap and not worth spending a lot of resources protecting. Cards are valuable and when we discard them they are basically gone, we don't have a whole lot of ways to get them back in that case.
Idk, what does everyone else think? She's a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a relevant ability, maybe that alone is enough to warrant a spot. I don't think I'll be using that ability a whole lot though. My cards are precious and my creatures are cheap, I'd rather just throw more into play then turn one of them into a counter and haste for a different one.
Idk about multiplayer where the games ate generally longer but I'm really liking her for DC.
I look at her and see a 3/3 flyer for 3 with an ability that synergises with Marchesa. She has very strong value but I could see you ditching a lot more cards in multiplayer then DC.
Oh definitely. She seems like a no brainer in DC. She's so aggressive, shes perfect for an aggro dual build. But multiplayer is a different beast. I might try her out though, cant hurt.
So, we've got a 5 Star General in Marchesa, A 4 Star General in Mikaeus, A 3 Star General in Drana, and now a 2 Star General in Olivia.
Maybe. I'm not in love with her. I was until I realized you had to discard a card every time you wanted to use that ability. We have guys coming in and out of play all the time, most of which are cheap and not worth spending a lot of resources protecting. Cards are valuable and when we discard them they are basically gone, we don't have a whole lot of ways to get them back in that case.
Idk, what does everyone else think? She's a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a relevant ability, maybe that alone is enough to warrant a spot. I don't think I'll be using that ability a whole lot though. My cards are precious and my creatures are cheap, I'd rather just throw more into play then turn one of them into a counter and haste for a different one.
that thin is insane, i would run that over a lot of the cards we currently run. Dumping a dude or land directly into play or drawing a card? Sign me up twice
this is one of the biggest cards we've gotten in awhile.
Yea I definitely want it in.
@slikwilly you aren't wrong though, we might have to think about our mana here. Getting a colorless source is no joke, in the main decklist we have a grand total of 9 (not counting Reflecting Pool since that only makes colorless if we have another way to make colorless). We currently have no way to fetch colorless sources since fetchlands can't do it and we have no Wastes for Solemn Simulacrum and Burnished Hart. If we simply put Matter Reshaper in there is a really strong chance he would just get stuck in our hand.
If we're going to play Matter Reshaper or any other C cost guy, I think we need to talk about our landbase. We're going to need more stuff like Mana Confluence, the painlands, the shadowmoor filterlands, etc. and less stuff like the checklands, River of Tears, etc.
Also rune, I never noticed this before but are you really not playing Cavern of Souls? I pretty much put that card in any EDH deck since it makes your commander uncounterable but in this case we actually have a tribal theme, seems like a no-brainer.
Now that's a card I can get on board with. Pretty sure I will be trying to find a spot for that guy.
EDIT: Somehow missed all the posts. We have a low curve and it does not exclude non-lands, there's a really good chance it will put something in play on death. And even if it doesn't, it still puts the card in our hand. AND it's an aggressive 3 drop. There's really no downside to this card. Opponents will hate it because dealing with it will be such a PITA but leaving it around is far worse. I definitely think this deserves a home, will be working on figuring out how to slot it in.
I do like the fact that the tokens are mana though, and 1 less is important. To me the biggest problem is the word "another". If it didn't have that I might give some significant consideration to it. As it is the card is a vanilla 4/3 by itself that relies on both marchesa and other guys to start doing anything interesting. Nifty, but nothing I would take out for it.
@CentralCommand Has Corpse Augur been pulling its weight for you? Also why not use Magus of the Wheel or Necropotence? } I'm also using LimDul's Vault as an instant speed tutor that can also lower our life totals
Funny story, I actually cut Necropotence for Corpse Augur. Necropotence is a great card and it's insanely powerful when in play. I cut it for a couple reasons though:
Getting cards at the end of your turn kind of sucks. I know, it's minor, we get so many cards its obviously worth it. But we have very little instant speed stuff so it does actually hinder our play a bit.
Getting BBB early is legitimately tough. Not that we can't, it's just not a priority. When fetching my priorities are 1) get all grixis, 2) get more red, 3) get more blue. Black is my last priority and my manabase is set up accordingly. So necropotence tends to sit in my hand unless I use all of my fetching on black, which isn't what I want to do.
I'd rather have a creature. Generally always true in this deck
So yea, that was my logic. I really thought the augur was a no brainer include. Very aggressively costed as a 4 mana 4/2, solid card draw in a way that is very marchesa, and always at least replaces itself on death.
Magus of the Wheel is also being considered for sure. I picked the augur over it mainly because of my stance on activated abilities that require tapping, especially without natural haste (not that I would expect this guy to have that). I also feel like I am pretty good on card selection in this deck, I am usually the one drawing more cards than everyone else. So as much as I love draw 7, I feel like it will usually help my opponents at least as much if not more. I will also say this - I've seen a lot of Jace's Archivists hit the board, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one activated. They are either killed on sight or they would help opponents more than the controller.
But in all honesty, since C15 came out my friends and I have been very busy with holidays and work so I haven't thoroughly tested it yet. He did pretty well in a game once but I'd need to test him more to say definitely whether he's a powerhouse or not.
Also Lim-Dûl's Vault is great, I always forget about that card. It's not usually something you put in at first because you have to really know your deck to use it as a tutor. But at this point i know it inside and out so yea it would obviously work great. I guess the only thing is I always feel weird about card disadvantage tutors unless it's designed as a combo deck. I've actually been on the fence about Vampiric Tutor for the same reason for some time. I'll consider it though.
Dualcaster is an infinite combo with Living Death:
Cast LD, Cast Dualcaster, Dualcaster enters, copy LD, sac Dualcaster, and repeat to get infinite ETB/LTB effects (or as many as you want there to be, because you can halt it). Could win off of Gary ETBs, one sided board wipe off of Nevermaker/Venser, infinite mana from Phyrexian Altar. You could exile each opponent's grave off of Agent of Erebos so only you are left with a board.
True but that's really just a bonus. When considering what to put in my deck, being part of a combo involving two (or worse, more) cards from the maindeck doesn't add much in my mind. A two card combo where one card is the general is different, that's a reliable wincon in a combo deck. But two or more maindeck is too johnny to count on. It's good to know all of them so you can pull them out situationally but it doesn't add much value to me. Especially that one given that they also have to be played in a specific order (as in if Dualcaster Mage is in play and then you draw Living Death you've got nothing).
Why Dualcaster Mage, Command? He doesn't seem too good after his initial casting, as we cannot bring him back at any time. I'd rather have something like Feldon of the Third Path in that spot for the continued value he can provide.
Totally true. And it took me an extremely long time to even consider playing him because of that. I really was strongly opposed at the start.
I caved because I realized not everything is about marchesa. Dualcaster mage is literally everything we could possibly want in a creature. Cheap, 2 power, extremely strong ETB, unique utility that we don't have in this deck, flash, and a wizard. The utility he provides is also great at every stage in the game. Early on it can copy a ramp spell, mid round - a tutor or removal, late game - a gamewinner like Tooth and Nail or Cyclonic Rift. Plus its shocking. I mean we are almost all creature and usually sorcery speed, we hardly ever interact with spells. No one ever sees him coming. He's really quite fantastic as a creature.
The only flaw he has is that marchesa can only protect him, looping him provides no additional value and is essentially a nonbo. And as a deckbuilder this totally drives me mad, the idea of willingly putting in a nonbo makes me want to tear my hair out. But I realized this was making me deflate his value too much. Marchesa doesn't hurt him, she just gets no additional value. This really isn't that bad and even has some benefits. People ignore him and underestimate him because of that but the truth is you don't want to leave him out either. Sneak Attack with a clone in hand is not uncommon in this deck. Riptide Laboratory gets him right back active again. Venser can bounce him, Kiki can clone him, etc. We can reuse his ability, we just have to work a little harder at it. Which is OK because its not really one we need a lot and its EXTREMELY powerful when we do need it.
A human non-wizard. Not the end of the world but a bummer.
No haste and an activated ability that requires tapping. This is a problem. This means without other help I'm waiting a full turn before he does anything and then I can either use him as a vanilla to get his counter or use his ability but leave him unprotected.
His activated ability is expensive. So in addition to the above I'm likely faced with the choice of either attacking with him as a vanilla and doing normal turn stuff or using his ability and a significant chunk of my mana without building my board state (since his token is not permanent).
And then his ability. Typically, when something really goes to my yard then its dead. The only chance it has to come back is off a likely game-winning Living Death. So I'm very resistant to letting things go there for real. Which means feldon's ability is kind of anti my strategy, I don't really want him to have any food for his ability.
Thus his preferred use will be in making copies of guys marchesa is about to bring back. That feels really winmore. Marchesa is already exceptional at milking value out of my guys, I don't really need to another thing doing that. I would rather have another unique piece of utility
Finally, feldon brings more focus on my yard. I do not want to encourage people to rip apart my yard. I want them to feel like their Bojuka Bogs are useless since they can only hurt the things I don't care about anymore. I want them to focus on the battlefield and waste all their resources trying to deal with my obnoxious undying creatures, leaving my yard living death ready if I need to go that way.
All this being said, eventually my guys will die permanently and feldon could be the clutch piece that reuses them at an extremely key time. He also gives me another way to reuse ETBs at instant speed, something I am always looking for. Those two are very valuable to me so he is one of my top maybeboard guys and if he had natural haste he would be in in a heartbeat. But right now I still kind of feel like there's not enough pros. And either way, I don't think I'd cut dualcaster for him.
Also I have it on Tappedout for playtesting and whatnot. Still have not managed to slot in Blade of Selves either. It's really proving to be a tricky one. It seems like a card I would normally put in the winmore bucket due to it's cost and the fact that it does nothing by itself. But the fact that its most effective with the small utility creatures this deck is chock full of keeps me coming back to it. I'm really quite torn on it.
Quick question as to why Archaeomancer and Time Warp aren't included for infinite turns?
Personally I don't think the deck needs infinite combo's to win. Adding the cards you mention would require cutting two other, probably better cards (if not using them to combo out that is). Also, that combo requires Marchesa to be in play, having a +1/+1 counter on Archaeomancer, and a sac outlet. Doesn't seem like the most effective combo actually (or do I miss some interaction?).
We've already got infinite combos, we don't need to add anything like that for them: Living Death on stack + Dualcaster Mage + any of our sac effects - Infinite ETBs of our creatures and infinite activations of whatever sac effect you are using Necrotic Ooze + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker in the 'yard - Infinite tapped oozes. Do at end of last opponents turn to attack with them or just infinitely sac them to something Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables + Puppeteer Clique + any of our sac effects - Infinite sac activations, all creatures in opponents yard put into play with haste, infinitely ETB anything in an opponent's yard, etc. Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + River Kelpie + any of our sac effects - Infinite card draw
(if you play her) Glen Elendra Archmage + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables + any of our sac effects - As much noncreature counter as you want/have mana for and infinite sac activations
And that's just the one's I've seen come up in games, there's probably more. And just the straight infinite things, there's also all sorts of chain reaction things like Sneak Attack + Imperial Recruiter (Go put every clone in your deck into play then Gary, then sac them, then put 4 or 5 gary's into play at end of turn). And more johnny ones like Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Phyrexian Altar, at least 5 other creatures and Living Death. Then you get into what other people are playing. Necrotic Ooze just periodically a combo because of something in someone else's graveyard. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker + Scourge of the Thrones is a combo if you borrow vigilance somehow. Etc. Etc. (there is way way too many here to list)
The point is, we've got such strong synergy it almost looks like we're comboing nearly every game. And if we truly need a combo to bust through a stalemate, we've got some. There's really no reason to throw in things that don't add much to the deck for the purpose of comboing.
Almost all of those are way too expensive or too slow (tapping or having to attack)
Removal to pick up are creatures that hit the board and you instantly get value.
Yea no reason to go overboard. Even after cutting Shadowborn Demon we still have plenty of ways to deal with creatures. We definitely do not need to delve into the slow removal area. If creatures become a serious problem I would probably just put Shadowborn back in.
I like Faceless Butcher and in a deck full of sac effects we are very well equipped to abuse the old school templating. But I'd rather have something that works well with marchesa. Butcher is pretty much only good if you sac him in response to his trigger and that doesn't work super well with marchesa. Since he gets no chance to attack he's probably going to actually die. He's really just single use then, we'd almost be better off just playing Ashes to Ashes.
So that new Kalitas seems good, but not up our alley, I think.
Opposite I think. That guy looks like a real problem for us. At only 4 and asymmetric it is very easy to slot in to a deck playing black just to hose nasty graveyard strategies like marchesa, mikaeus, etc. The nontoken clause hoses its utility a bit since it doesnt affect green tokens+fecundity style strategies. But im still not real happy to see that as i expect it to see play.
Unlike Thief of Blood this new Kalitas is a legitimate threat with a competitive casting cost and might actually see some play in a token or swarm deck. I know I'm personally debating if hes powerful enough to use in Teysa or not.
Yea I've been making a deck with Meren of Clan Nel Toth and I'm fairly certain I will find a spot for her. Works insanely well with Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos strategies which are really popular in black.
So that new Kalitas seems good, but not up our alley, I think.
Opposite I think. That guy looks like a real problem for us. At only 4 and asymmetric it is very easy to slot in to a deck playing black just to hose nasty graveyard strategies like marchesa, mikaeus, etc. The nontoken clause hoses its utility a bit since it doesnt affect green tokens+fecundity style strategies. But im still not real happy to see that as i expect it to see play.
Ok, it has to be said
Stop hijacking this thread
Please keep your future set discussion to the proper forum, they have no relevance to Marchesa decks.
I kinda agree with this however part of the discussion is based on whether we should add filter lands to marchesa or not so it does have some relevence.
Yea he's right though, we moved on to general new card discussion. I can't imagine a scenario where we add Wastes to this deck.
To get back to the deck, given that we now know how C works, I definitely think Mirrorpool should find a spot. With or without the filters, we have enough tap for C to support that and a clone that takes a land spot seems like something we want to play.
The only real difference is that Wastes doesn't have a type and therefore doesn't affect Domain. It's not a color so it doesn't affect Converge, either. This means that Command Tower (and everything else that says "any color") doesn't make {C}. It's a pseudo-color, only in the sense that it shows up in mana costs.
I don't think anything here precludes Wastes from having oracle text of "(tap for C)" like other basics do (ie. reminder text styled inside parentheses)".
No see that would actually be a big deal. Wrapping the text in parentheses like that is not a style, it means it's being put on the card as a reminder only but the text is already implied by something else.
For instance, the rules stipulate that if a permanent is a land and it has type forest then it's rules text includes "tap: add G", regardless of whether its printed on the card or not. This is why Murmuring Bosk looks the way it does. If they printed that first part without parentheses then its rules text would actually be different, it would be: (tap: add G) (coming from the forest type)
tap: add G (written on the card)
....
So if they printed Wastes with "tap: add C" in parentheses then that could only mean some other aspect of the card is implying that ability. That would mean the comprehensive rules either had to have a specific entry that says "cards with the name "Wastes" always have "tap: add C" in their rules text". Or something even crazier like "all basic lands have "tap: add C" in their rules text or "basic lands without a type have "tap: add C"". That's why it was an important question, either of those latter two rules changes would be a pretty significant deal. Based on matt's response though we'll just have no parentheses "tap: add C" on the non-full arts, keeping it simple.
The sidisi one works, the mulldrifter one doesn't. When you evoke it is immediately sacrificed when it is put into play. Olivia's trigger is a when so it is put on the stack when mulldrifter enters play but by the time it would get a chance to resolve mulldrifter is already dead.
Anyway fine, I see your points, I'm definitely convinced to try her.
Oh definitely. She seems like a no brainer in DC. She's so aggressive, shes perfect for an aggro dual build. But multiplayer is a different beast. I might try her out though, cant hurt.
Maybe. I'm not in love with her. I was until I realized you had to discard a card every time you wanted to use that ability. We have guys coming in and out of play all the time, most of which are cheap and not worth spending a lot of resources protecting. Cards are valuable and when we discard them they are basically gone, we don't have a whole lot of ways to get them back in that case.
Idk, what does everyone else think? She's a 3/3 flyer for 3 with a relevant ability, maybe that alone is enough to warrant a spot. I don't think I'll be using that ability a whole lot though. My cards are precious and my creatures are cheap, I'd rather just throw more into play then turn one of them into a counter and haste for a different one.
Yea I definitely want it in.
@slikwilly you aren't wrong though, we might have to think about our mana here. Getting a colorless source is no joke, in the main decklist we have a grand total of 9 (not counting Reflecting Pool since that only makes colorless if we have another way to make colorless). We currently have no way to fetch colorless sources since fetchlands can't do it and we have no Wastes for Solemn Simulacrum and Burnished Hart. If we simply put Matter Reshaper in there is a really strong chance he would just get stuck in our hand.
If we're going to play Matter Reshaper or any other C cost guy, I think we need to talk about our landbase. We're going to need more stuff like Mana Confluence, the painlands, the shadowmoor filterlands, etc. and less stuff like the checklands, River of Tears, etc.
Also rune, I never noticed this before but are you really not playing Cavern of Souls? I pretty much put that card in any EDH deck since it makes your commander uncounterable but in this case we actually have a tribal theme, seems like a no-brainer.
Now that's a card I can get on board with. Pretty sure I will be trying to find a spot for that guy.
EDIT: Somehow missed all the posts. We have a low curve and it does not exclude non-lands, there's a really good chance it will put something in play on death. And even if it doesn't, it still puts the card in our hand. AND it's an aggressive 3 drop. There's really no downside to this card. Opponents will hate it because dealing with it will be such a PITA but leaving it around is far worse. I definitely think this deserves a home, will be working on figuring out how to slot it in.
Funny story, I actually cut Necropotence for Corpse Augur. Necropotence is a great card and it's insanely powerful when in play. I cut it for a couple reasons though:
Magus of the Wheel is also being considered for sure. I picked the augur over it mainly because of my stance on activated abilities that require tapping, especially without natural haste (not that I would expect this guy to have that). I also feel like I am pretty good on card selection in this deck, I am usually the one drawing more cards than everyone else. So as much as I love draw 7, I feel like it will usually help my opponents at least as much if not more. I will also say this - I've seen a lot of Jace's Archivists hit the board, I'm pretty sure I've never seen one activated. They are either killed on sight or they would help opponents more than the controller.
But in all honesty, since C15 came out my friends and I have been very busy with holidays and work so I haven't thoroughly tested it yet. He did pretty well in a game once but I'd need to test him more to say definitely whether he's a powerhouse or not.
Also Lim-Dûl's Vault is great, I always forget about that card. It's not usually something you put in at first because you have to really know your deck to use it as a tutor. But at this point i know it inside and out so yea it would obviously work great. I guess the only thing is I always feel weird about card disadvantage tutors unless it's designed as a combo deck. I've actually been on the fence about Vampiric Tutor for the same reason for some time. I'll consider it though.
True but that's really just a bonus. When considering what to put in my deck, being part of a combo involving two (or worse, more) cards from the maindeck doesn't add much in my mind. A two card combo where one card is the general is different, that's a reliable wincon in a combo deck. But two or more maindeck is too johnny to count on. It's good to know all of them so you can pull them out situationally but it doesn't add much value to me. Especially that one given that they also have to be played in a specific order (as in if Dualcaster Mage is in play and then you draw Living Death you've got nothing).
It did come up once though
Totally true. And it took me an extremely long time to even consider playing him because of that. I really was strongly opposed at the start.
I caved because I realized not everything is about marchesa. Dualcaster mage is literally everything we could possibly want in a creature. Cheap, 2 power, extremely strong ETB, unique utility that we don't have in this deck, flash, and a wizard. The utility he provides is also great at every stage in the game. Early on it can copy a ramp spell, mid round - a tutor or removal, late game - a gamewinner like Tooth and Nail or Cyclonic Rift. Plus its shocking. I mean we are almost all creature and usually sorcery speed, we hardly ever interact with spells. No one ever sees him coming. He's really quite fantastic as a creature.
The only flaw he has is that marchesa can only protect him, looping him provides no additional value and is essentially a nonbo. And as a deckbuilder this totally drives me mad, the idea of willingly putting in a nonbo makes me want to tear my hair out. But I realized this was making me deflate his value too much. Marchesa doesn't hurt him, she just gets no additional value. This really isn't that bad and even has some benefits. People ignore him and underestimate him because of that but the truth is you don't want to leave him out either. Sneak Attack with a clone in hand is not uncommon in this deck. Riptide Laboratory gets him right back active again. Venser can bounce him, Kiki can clone him, etc. We can reuse his ability, we just have to work a little harder at it. Which is OK because its not really one we need a lot and its EXTREMELY powerful when we do need it.
As for Feldon of the Third Path, he's on my maybe list. Here's my problems:
Sure, here's my latest
4 Marchesa, the Black Rose
Ramp
0 Ancient Tomb
0 Phyrexian Tower
1 Sol Ring
2 Dimir Signet
2 Izzet Signet
2 Rakdos Signet
2 Talisman of Indulgence
2 Talisman of Dominance
3 Phyrexian Altar
4 Phyrexian Metamorph
4 Solemn Simulacrum
Card Draw
2 Baleful Strix
2 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Haruspex
4 Corpse Augur
4 Disciple of Bolas
4 Smothering Abomination
5 Mulldrifter
5 River Kelpie
Tutor
0 Tolaria West
1 Entomb
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Viscera Seer
2 Demonic Tutor
3 Imperial Recruiter
4 Dimir House Guard
4 Fleshwrither
5 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
7 Rune-Scarred Demon
Disruption
0 Bojuka Bog
2 Cyclonic Rift
3 Fulminator Mage
3 Necroplasm
4 Agent of Erebos
4 Aura Thief
4 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Nevermaker
4 Profaner of the Dead
4 Sower of Temptation
4 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Venser, Shaper Savant
5 Living Death
6 Flayer of the Hatebound
0 Command Beacon
0 High Market
0 Riptide Laboratory
1 Carrion Feeder
2 Spellskite
3 Dualcaster Mage
4 Clever Impersonator
4 Dack's Duplicate
4 Falkenrath Aristocrat
4 Sakashima the Impostor
4 Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed
5 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
5 Puppeteer Clique
Fast counters
0 Flamekin Village
3 Sage of Fables
3 Unspeakable Symbol
4 Anger
4 Sneak Attack
5 Urabrask the Hidden
6 Mikaeus, the Unhallowed
Valuetown and Wincons
3 Chasm Skulker
3 Drana, Liberator of Malakir
4 Marton Stromgald
4 Necrotic Ooze
5 Eldrazi Monument
5 Gray Merchant of Asphodel
6 Scourge of the Throne
The Realm
0 Bloodstained Mire
0 Flooded Strand
0 Polluted Delta
0 Wooded Foothills
0 Creeping Tar Pit
0 Darkwater Catacombs
0 Underground Sea
0 Watery Grave
0 Badlands
0 Blood Crypt
0 Lavaclaw Reaches
0 Shadowblood Ridge
0 Sulfur Falls
0 Steam Vents
0 Volcanic Island
0 Opal Palace
0 Command Tower
0 Cavern of Souls
0 City of Brass
0 Mana Confluence
0 Reflecting Pool
0 Island (x3)
0 Mountain (x3)
0 Swamp
0 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Also I have it on Tappedout for playtesting and whatnot. Still have not managed to slot in Blade of Selves either. It's really proving to be a tricky one. It seems like a card I would normally put in the winmore bucket due to it's cost and the fact that it does nothing by itself. But the fact that its most effective with the small utility creatures this deck is chock full of keeps me coming back to it. I'm really quite torn on it.
We've already got infinite combos, we don't need to add anything like that for them:
Living Death on stack + Dualcaster Mage + any of our sac effects - Infinite ETBs of our creatures and infinite activations of whatever sac effect you are using
Necrotic Ooze + Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker in the 'yard - Infinite tapped oozes. Do at end of last opponents turn to attack with them or just infinitely sac them to something
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables + Puppeteer Clique + any of our sac effects - Infinite sac activations, all creatures in opponents yard put into play with haste, infinitely ETB anything in an opponent's yard, etc.
Mikaeus, the Unhallowed + River Kelpie + any of our sac effects - Infinite card draw
(if you play her) Glen Elendra Archmage + Mikaeus, the Unhallowed or Sage of Fables + any of our sac effects - As much noncreature counter as you want/have mana for and infinite sac activations
And that's just the one's I've seen come up in games, there's probably more. And just the straight infinite things, there's also all sorts of chain reaction things like Sneak Attack + Imperial Recruiter (Go put every clone in your deck into play then Gary, then sac them, then put 4 or 5 gary's into play at end of turn). And more johnny ones like Xiahou Dun, the One-Eyed, Phyrexian Altar, at least 5 other creatures and Living Death. Then you get into what other people are playing. Necrotic Ooze just periodically a combo because of something in someone else's graveyard. Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker + Scourge of the Thrones is a combo if you borrow vigilance somehow. Etc. Etc. (there is way way too many here to list)
The point is, we've got such strong synergy it almost looks like we're comboing nearly every game. And if we truly need a combo to bust through a stalemate, we've got some. There's really no reason to throw in things that don't add much to the deck for the purpose of comboing.
Yea no reason to go overboard. Even after cutting Shadowborn Demon we still have plenty of ways to deal with creatures. We definitely do not need to delve into the slow removal area. If creatures become a serious problem I would probably just put Shadowborn back in.
I like Faceless Butcher and in a deck full of sac effects we are very well equipped to abuse the old school templating. But I'd rather have something that works well with marchesa. Butcher is pretty much only good if you sac him in response to his trigger and that doesn't work super well with marchesa. Since he gets no chance to attack he's probably going to actually die. He's really just single use then, we'd almost be better off just playing Ashes to Ashes.
Yea I've been making a deck with Meren of Clan Nel Toth and I'm fairly certain I will find a spot for her. Works insanely well with Grave Pact and Dictate of Erebos strategies which are really popular in black.
Opposite I think. That guy looks like a real problem for us. At only 4 and asymmetric it is very easy to slot in to a deck playing black just to hose nasty graveyard strategies like marchesa, mikaeus, etc. The nontoken clause hoses its utility a bit since it doesnt affect green tokens+fecundity style strategies. But im still not real happy to see that as i expect it to see play.
Yea he's right though, we moved on to general new card discussion. I can't imagine a scenario where we add Wastes to this deck.
To get back to the deck, given that we now know how C works, I definitely think Mirrorpool should find a spot. With or without the filters, we have enough tap for C to support that and a clone that takes a land spot seems like something we want to play.
No see that would actually be a big deal. Wrapping the text in parentheses like that is not a style, it means it's being put on the card as a reminder only but the text is already implied by something else.
For instance, the rules stipulate that if a permanent is a land and it has type forest then it's rules text includes "tap: add G", regardless of whether its printed on the card or not. This is why Murmuring Bosk looks the way it does. If they printed that first part without parentheses then its rules text would actually be different, it would be:
(tap: add G) (coming from the forest type)
tap: add G (written on the card)
....
So if they printed Wastes with "tap: add C" in parentheses then that could only mean some other aspect of the card is implying that ability. That would mean the comprehensive rules either had to have a specific entry that says "cards with the name "Wastes" always have "tap: add C" in their rules text". Or something even crazier like "all basic lands have "tap: add C" in their rules text or "basic lands without a type have "tap: add C"". That's why it was an important question, either of those latter two rules changes would be a pretty significant deal. Based on matt's response though we'll just have no parentheses "tap: add C" on the non-full arts, keeping it simple.
EDIT: Yea, see, Trick answered