I have a whole bunch of Riptide Shapeshifters in my old box lol. Used to love those things. I had a deck based entirely around him way back in the day.
I definitely think he's better than Fleshwrither after seeing the list of creatures he can tutor up. Plus being able to do that at instant speed is obviously huge. That being said, I cut Fleshwrither a long time ago because I found him way too conditional in his uses. So many of the things I want to find are not 4 mana and sorcery speed hurts a ton. So I'd have to cut something else for the shapeshifter and I'm not sure what is worth it. He is pretty mana intensive after all. I'll have to think about it.
Yea new grenzo is bonkers. I'll be looking for a slot for him for sure. If we can start casting dudes from other people's decks we can get ahead very fast.
Agreed. I like him, hell be fun. Also dont rule out goad. Will be very nice to force threatening guys to go in a different direction.
I think at 5 rune is probably right, those other guys arent worth it. We simply run too tight a ship in this deck to have room for them. Keep in mind though no one in their right mind is going to let you stay the monarch and draw a free extra card a turn. Monarch is definitely going to move around the table a lot as everyone tries to net their own extra card.
So far, the 2 rare monarch cards that we can play here are looking pretty good. Keeper of Keys could be another win-condition for us, while Custodi Lich is straight value and encourages others to attack us (we want this).
So far, pretty good set for us.
I'm not a big fan of new marchesa. I get why you like her @Fear because I agree with your assessment in 1v1. Strong body, haste, deathtouch, cantrips that turn and leaves opponents with a damned if you do, damned if you don't choice. However in multiplayer I disagree. Her power level is nowhere near old marchesa. Deathtouch tokens are annoying but you get 1 a turn if she manages to last until your following upkeep. That's not a given at all and honestly not particularly threatening in multiplayer commander. If she pops out I am going at the monarch every time because I want the throne and the card that comes with it, marchesa can do whatever she wants with her tokens until the next wrath comes (like 1 turn later, maybe).
I am a fan of those monarch cards though. Custodi is a straight up damned if you do, damned if you don't choice. Steal the monarch if you want but then I get to punish you again when I steal it right back. And keeper of the keys might as well just say "my creatures are unblockable". We can sac him during the final opponents turn to regain monarch right before our turn starts. And even if we can't do that just having monarch out there means that all our attacks can now net us a card. We are constantly attacking no matter what, as long as we hit the monarch we get a card.
They're pricey at 5 mana but they both come with 4 power so that's not too shabby. And monarch is the kind of card draw we can get on board with - combat damage gets you cards. I strongly disapprove of giving cards to our opponents which is definitely going to happen during this. But as long as we get more its ok. And I think we'll get more personally.
So first of Chasm Skulker is amazing in this deck. There's no chance I could cut it for any of those cards. If you aren't playing with it then please try it, it's a giant PITA by itself and its a monster next to marchesa. Second of all we want creatures. Lots and lots of creatures. Especially cheap creatures whose power to mana cost ratio is efficient. Therefore generally cutting creatures that meet this bill for non-creatures is a bad idea.
Of the cards you mentioned the only one I'd really even consider is Lightning Greaves since it equips for free. I'm sure some people play it in their marchesa deck, personally I don't. Marchesa's protects my creatures, I don't need something else providing protection. And I much prefer my haste effects to also be creatures or take up a land slot, not non-creature non-lands. Retribution of the Ancients I personally have no interest in. I don't have problems with dealing with my opponents creatures and if I did I wouldn't play an enchantment that only does something if I have a built up board full of counters. I'm probably winning in that case, not sure what that adds to the picture.
Does anyone else really like Voldaran Pariah? I'm interested in trying it, seems solid to me.
It's interesting for sure, but I don't know if I want it? It's really bad if I can't transform it, as I will almost never be able to play it via madness. But on the other hand it will probably win games most of the time if I am able to transform it? With a sac outlet for it, it can eat a lot of the opponents board turn after turn. Not sure, have to see what I take out and just try it.
And as it seems now we probably won't get any good emerge card for the deck. All the Emerge Eldrazi we have seen to date have an on cast trigger. I think the best we could get would be just a fat beatstick without any utility. (Eldrazi Dragon?)
Would just like to point out that not everything needs to be repeatable. One-sided blowouts are still pretty awesome. We can definitely argue whether pariah is cost-effective or not but forcing an opponent to sac 3 creatures at the "cost" of turning your 3/3 flyer into a 6/5 flyer and retriggering the ETBs of 3 of your creatures is a pretty powerful move. Even if you only do it once.
Same thing applies to emerge. If we got a badass beatstick that I can effectively make cost 0 with a single use blowout cast trigger I am all over that. Sadly I don't think Distended Mindbender qualifies. Nice for really messing with one player but in multiplayer I don't think the effect or the creature are good enough for us.
I like pariah too rune. At 5 I'm still a bit torn but it seems worth a shot. It's not grave pact but we can probably make it feel like one, and it comes with a much nicer body then the actual pact.
Hello new haste-granting land that comes into play untapped - Hanweir Battlements.
Also hello new awesome mechanic, please give me something good and grixis with you printed in the textbox - Wretched Gryff. I don't think the gryff is good enough but fingers crossed for a sick rare with emerge!
Now the real question - what about Hanweir Garrison? He's certainly aggressive and those tokens do hang around (although they won't trigger dethrone right away). I think normally I would pass but if we assume battlements finds a home does "potential to turn into a gigantic monstrosity" add enough additional value to warrant a spot?
EDIT: The more I think about it, that's a lot of power for 3 mana. 2 additional tokens each attack? In a deck that just wants to give haste and turn sideways? Maybe this guy should be earning his own spot, irrespective of the gigantic monstrosity bonus.
I honestly don't worry about it. Not every game has to be the same level of shenanigans. When you're playing against something like Rest in Peace or Leyline of the void it's important to keep in mind why we choose the creatures we did. Every creature in this deck is a threat on its own, marchesa simply makes them all better and more resilient. We have an extremely strong foundation, what opponents don't realize is that if they remove the fortifications marchesa builds there's still a powerhouse inside there.
I have a friend that runs a complete fun police Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant deck, even going so far as to throw in Humility. When he gets going we definitely slow way down and I've had my far share of losses but more often then not marchesa and friends simply powers through anyway. I actually often go more aggressive against those kinds of deck. I find playing controlly is playing into their hands a bit. That's not to say you shouldn't keep their stuff off the board when you can but trying to out-control a dedicated control deck is not usually a recipe for success.
As for dealing with nasties, I run a few: Glen Elendra Archmage, Venser, Shaper Savant, Nevermaker (leaves play not ETB, sorry Torpor Orb), and the occasional well-timed Dualcaster Mage. But by far the best ways to deal with them are either eliminate the player or play politics. If you can be threatening enough just with pure board then aggressively go for the throat, it permanently deals with all of the problems at once. And if not then look beaten This is the one place politics come into play with marchesa. Remember, everyone who's not playing cards like Torpor Orb hates them. It's very easy to look non-threatening and make allies at this point in time and quietly build up an explosive gameplan the minute the problem is removed.
I guess the one exception would be if everyone in your playgroup is starting to run more and more anti-marchesa tech specifically to neuter you. If that's the case then that's not really a healthy direction for the playgroup. Clearly they have a problem with your deck and maybe its time to switch decks or figure out what changes you can make to make it more fun.
Hey guys I'm thinking about adding Blade of Selves to my build, and I'm wondering if any of you guys have used it and been successful with it. I'll probably replace Corrupted Grafstone with it if it is useable.
Hit or miss. It's cool and we have a lot of ETB creatures but all in all it feels kind of win-more considering it's expensive equip cost and the fact that it does nothing by itself.
However I would definitely cut Corrupted Grafstone regardless. Mana cost wise this deck is cheap and inexpensive, we need very little mana to get going and not much more than that to completely play our game. The one and only time we really need any kind of ramp is right during the opening turn or two to get our game going and established quickly. Even if you play the grafstone turn 2 it's unlikely it will tap for mana for a bit. You need a card of color in your graveyard before it does anything. The only thing we can reliably count on in our graveyard that early is a fetchland and that won't help it. And it comes into play tapped to boot.
I understand if you are just playing what you have but in my opinion you'd be better off with a basic land than the grafstone.
So now that the whole set is spoiled, what are you guys thinking of testing?
Hmm haven't looked very thoroughly at all the cards, but so far I'm just gonna test Olivia, Mobilized for War. That is, if she's gonna drop in price / I draft her, since I find the current price of $15 too much for what she does for the deck.
Also, it's so tempting to try Westvale Abbey! Not because I think it's gonna be good but it's just such an awesome card
Yep, I am gonna try Olivia too if my get my hands on one. Westvale Abbey is nice too, makes tokens and fixes your life in the late game. Biggest problem is that it only taps for colorless.
Yea you nailed it, my thoughts exactly. Olivia gets tested and I really want to add Abbey too but I just don't know. I mean on one hand it consumes only a land slot, fits with the deck and is potentially a wincon. On the other hand our landbase is pretty tight, can we really fit it? Idk yet but I would like to as well.
I'd also like to point out that Kindly Stranger (transforms into Demon-Possessed Witch) actually isn't bad at all. In any deck that can count on delirium she's unconditional removal on a stick and you don't need to tap her either. And in a deck that can repeatedly untransform her by recycling her she could be pretty valuable. Probably not good enough for this deck but might be a decent budget option. Although I'm not entirely certain we can count on delirium so I'd have to look into that to be sure. We do a lot of graveyard stuff but I'm not sure if we can reliably count on more than 2 types (creatures and lands).
I'd veer away from Sin Prodder. Creatureless combo decks or other decks that can play around red sources of damage are going to happily take 4 damage to skip Sneak Attack or anything else that could be impactful. This and Goldnight Castigator have been making Zedruu Donate a super interesting deck concept though
Yea I don't think Sin Prodder will have much of an impact in multiplayer. 1v1 I get it but in multi it's basically just a 3/2 with menance. When surrounded by 3 or so opponents that start with 40 life and have a vested interest in keeping their life total below yours you will never see one of those cards he reveals. We would need to have a lot more graveyard recursion to make that guy valuable to us. I bet an Alesha, who smiles at death deck would love him though (other than wishing his power was 2 instead of 3).
Zedruu aside - as a player with a zedruu donate deck I have to say creatures don't make great donate targets. WAY too easy to get rid of, there's just too many sac effects in this format. And other opponents help get rid of him more than you'd think, they don't really like you netting cards and life each turn. Noncreatures like Pyromancer's Swath are way more fun/evil :).
I like him. A lot. Relevant ability, cheap and tutorable, very aggressive, and a non-human wizard. Will leave opponent in a very tough place - do I use removal I was saving for marchesa or leave this guy around? Cause at some point he will start raking in value all by himself and win us the game if left around too long. It's a lot like what we were doing with Sage of Hours except this guy needs no other help to start raking in value, he can do it all on his own. Plus he's a 3/1 wizard for 2!
Idk dude, how often is the table hellhent?
I mean if I'm not winning then at some point I probably will be. I burn through cards like crazy in this deck. If I can get any draw engine going for even a short amount of time I am usually well on my way to victory. So if I've done that then I don't really need his cards and if I haven't then he's exactly what I need cause I will be running low. And it really doesn't have to be the whole table, as long as one person is hellbent this guy is valuetown, multiple people hellbent would be ridiculous.
He's a cheap, aggressive wizard that really needs no other support and can drive serious value in his own right. That's exactly what I'm looking for in my creatures, they need to fit the "marchesa-creature mold" and be able to drive game-winning value by themselves. They should get much better with all the support we have in this deck but they should still be a potential threat without any of it.
I like him. A lot. Relevant ability, cheap and tutorable, very aggressive, and a non-human wizard. Will leave opponent in a very tough place - do I use removal I was saving for marchesa or leave this guy around? Cause at some point he will start raking in value all by himself and win us the game if left around too long. It's a lot like what we were doing with Sage of Hours except this guy needs no other help to start raking in value, he can do it all on his own. Plus he's a 3/1 wizard for 2!
Gonna be honest, always thought evoke sacrifice was part of the cost of it hitting the field, no clue i could respond to it myself. Definitely awesome knowledge there.
Right?! Biggest news of the day right here. Makes me want to think about other evoke cards. Should we reconsider Ingot Chewer over other artifact removal? Even Shriekmaw looks better now.
The sidisi one works, the mulldrifter one doesn't. When you evoke it is immediately sacrificed when it is put into play. Olivia's trigger is a when so it is put on the stack when mulldrifter enters play but by the time it would get a chance to resolve mulldrifter is already dead.
Anyway fine, I see your points, I'm definitely convinced to try her.
Are you sure? I thought so too but the following line from the rulings page made me think otherwise:
Playing a creature by paying its evoke cost will result in two comes-into-play abilities: The sacrifice ability from evoke, and whatever other ability the creature has. The creature's controller chooses in what order to put them on the stack. Both abilities can be responded to as normal.source
So I thought the new Olivia created the third trigger also allowed to be put on the stack in a chosen order, meaning you could end up with:
Draw 2 -> Place counter + give haste -> Sac
[Edit:] Thinking about it, this means the next time I decide to cast Mulldrifter for it's evoke cost and something like Carrion Feeder is in play, I might as well respond to the evoke sac trigger to at least give Feeder a +1/+1 counter too.
[Edit2:] Off topic, but if correct that means evoke is some nice tech with Confusion in the Ranks
Holy crap, that's really broken. I always thought it worked like Flash. Why would they make it a triggered ability? Apparently I need to start evoking mulldrifter a LOT more. You're totally right, it works exactly as you are saying.
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I definitely think he's better than Fleshwrither after seeing the list of creatures he can tutor up. Plus being able to do that at instant speed is obviously huge. That being said, I cut Fleshwrither a long time ago because I found him way too conditional in his uses. So many of the things I want to find are not 4 mana and sorcery speed hurts a ton. So I'd have to cut something else for the shapeshifter and I'm not sure what is worth it. He is pretty mana intensive after all. I'll have to think about it.
Well that's definitely finding a spot. What to remove though, wow that's tough.
Agreed. I like him, hell be fun. Also dont rule out goad. Will be very nice to force threatening guys to go in a different direction.
I think at 5 rune is probably right, those other guys arent worth it. We simply run too tight a ship in this deck to have room for them. Keep in mind though no one in their right mind is going to let you stay the monarch and draw a free extra card a turn. Monarch is definitely going to move around the table a lot as everyone tries to net their own extra card.
I'm not a big fan of new marchesa. I get why you like her @Fear because I agree with your assessment in 1v1. Strong body, haste, deathtouch, cantrips that turn and leaves opponents with a damned if you do, damned if you don't choice. However in multiplayer I disagree. Her power level is nowhere near old marchesa. Deathtouch tokens are annoying but you get 1 a turn if she manages to last until your following upkeep. That's not a given at all and honestly not particularly threatening in multiplayer commander. If she pops out I am going at the monarch every time because I want the throne and the card that comes with it, marchesa can do whatever she wants with her tokens until the next wrath comes (like 1 turn later, maybe).
I am a fan of those monarch cards though. Custodi is a straight up damned if you do, damned if you don't choice. Steal the monarch if you want but then I get to punish you again when I steal it right back. And keeper of the keys might as well just say "my creatures are unblockable". We can sac him during the final opponents turn to regain monarch right before our turn starts. And even if we can't do that just having monarch out there means that all our attacks can now net us a card. We are constantly attacking no matter what, as long as we hit the monarch we get a card.
They're pricey at 5 mana but they both come with 4 power so that's not too shabby. And monarch is the kind of card draw we can get on board with - combat damage gets you cards. I strongly disapprove of giving cards to our opponents which is definitely going to happen during this. But as long as we get more its ok. And I think we'll get more personally.
So first of Chasm Skulker is amazing in this deck. There's no chance I could cut it for any of those cards. If you aren't playing with it then please try it, it's a giant PITA by itself and its a monster next to marchesa. Second of all we want creatures. Lots and lots of creatures. Especially cheap creatures whose power to mana cost ratio is efficient. Therefore generally cutting creatures that meet this bill for non-creatures is a bad idea.
Of the cards you mentioned the only one I'd really even consider is Lightning Greaves since it equips for free. I'm sure some people play it in their marchesa deck, personally I don't. Marchesa's protects my creatures, I don't need something else providing protection. And I much prefer my haste effects to also be creatures or take up a land slot, not non-creature non-lands. Retribution of the Ancients I personally have no interest in. I don't have problems with dealing with my opponents creatures and if I did I wouldn't play an enchantment that only does something if I have a built up board full of counters. I'm probably winning in that case, not sure what that adds to the picture.
Would just like to point out that not everything needs to be repeatable. One-sided blowouts are still pretty awesome. We can definitely argue whether pariah is cost-effective or not but forcing an opponent to sac 3 creatures at the "cost" of turning your 3/3 flyer into a 6/5 flyer and retriggering the ETBs of 3 of your creatures is a pretty powerful move. Even if you only do it once.
Same thing applies to emerge. If we got a badass beatstick that I can effectively make cost 0 with a single use blowout cast trigger I am all over that. Sadly I don't think Distended Mindbender qualifies. Nice for really messing with one player but in multiplayer I don't think the effect or the creature are good enough for us.
I like pariah too rune. At 5 I'm still a bit torn but it seems worth a shot. It's not grave pact but we can probably make it feel like one, and it comes with a much nicer body then the actual pact.
Also hello new awesome mechanic, please give me something good and grixis with you printed in the textbox - Wretched Gryff. I don't think the gryff is good enough but fingers crossed for a sick rare with emerge!
Now the real question - what about Hanweir Garrison? He's certainly aggressive and those tokens do hang around (although they won't trigger dethrone right away). I think normally I would pass but if we assume battlements finds a home does "potential to turn into a gigantic monstrosity" add enough additional value to warrant a spot?
EDIT: The more I think about it, that's a lot of power for 3 mana. 2 additional tokens each attack? In a deck that just wants to give haste and turn sideways? Maybe this guy should be earning his own spot, irrespective of the gigantic monstrosity bonus.
I have a friend that runs a complete fun police Rune-Tail, Kitsune Ascendant deck, even going so far as to throw in Humility. When he gets going we definitely slow way down and I've had my far share of losses but more often then not marchesa and friends simply powers through anyway. I actually often go more aggressive against those kinds of deck. I find playing controlly is playing into their hands a bit. That's not to say you shouldn't keep their stuff off the board when you can but trying to out-control a dedicated control deck is not usually a recipe for success.
As for dealing with nasties, I run a few: Glen Elendra Archmage, Venser, Shaper Savant, Nevermaker (leaves play not ETB, sorry Torpor Orb), and the occasional well-timed Dualcaster Mage. But by far the best ways to deal with them are either eliminate the player or play politics. If you can be threatening enough just with pure board then aggressively go for the throat, it permanently deals with all of the problems at once. And if not then look beaten This is the one place politics come into play with marchesa. Remember, everyone who's not playing cards like Torpor Orb hates them. It's very easy to look non-threatening and make allies at this point in time and quietly build up an explosive gameplan the minute the problem is removed.
I guess the one exception would be if everyone in your playgroup is starting to run more and more anti-marchesa tech specifically to neuter you. If that's the case then that's not really a healthy direction for the playgroup. Clearly they have a problem with your deck and maybe its time to switch decks or figure out what changes you can make to make it more fun.
Hit or miss. It's cool and we have a lot of ETB creatures but all in all it feels kind of win-more considering it's expensive equip cost and the fact that it does nothing by itself.
However I would definitely cut Corrupted Grafstone regardless. Mana cost wise this deck is cheap and inexpensive, we need very little mana to get going and not much more than that to completely play our game. The one and only time we really need any kind of ramp is right during the opening turn or two to get our game going and established quickly. Even if you play the grafstone turn 2 it's unlikely it will tap for mana for a bit. You need a card of color in your graveyard before it does anything. The only thing we can reliably count on in our graveyard that early is a fetchland and that won't help it. And it comes into play tapped to boot.
I understand if you are just playing what you have but in my opinion you'd be better off with a basic land than the grafstone.
Yea you nailed it, my thoughts exactly. Olivia gets tested and I really want to add Abbey too but I just don't know. I mean on one hand it consumes only a land slot, fits with the deck and is potentially a wincon. On the other hand our landbase is pretty tight, can we really fit it? Idk yet but I would like to as well.
I'd also like to point out that Kindly Stranger (transforms into Demon-Possessed Witch) actually isn't bad at all. In any deck that can count on delirium she's unconditional removal on a stick and you don't need to tap her either. And in a deck that can repeatedly untransform her by recycling her she could be pretty valuable. Probably not good enough for this deck but might be a decent budget option. Although I'm not entirely certain we can count on delirium so I'd have to look into that to be sure. We do a lot of graveyard stuff but I'm not sure if we can reliably count on more than 2 types (creatures and lands).
Yea I don't think Sin Prodder will have much of an impact in multiplayer. 1v1 I get it but in multi it's basically just a 3/2 with menance. When surrounded by 3 or so opponents that start with 40 life and have a vested interest in keeping their life total below yours you will never see one of those cards he reveals. We would need to have a lot more graveyard recursion to make that guy valuable to us. I bet an Alesha, who smiles at death deck would love him though (other than wishing his power was 2 instead of 3).
Zedruu aside - as a player with a zedruu donate deck I have to say creatures don't make great donate targets. WAY too easy to get rid of, there's just too many sac effects in this format. And other opponents help get rid of him more than you'd think, they don't really like you netting cards and life each turn. Noncreatures like Pyromancer's Swath are way more fun/evil :).
Sorry, back to marchesa land.
I mean if I'm not winning then at some point I probably will be. I burn through cards like crazy in this deck. If I can get any draw engine going for even a short amount of time I am usually well on my way to victory. So if I've done that then I don't really need his cards and if I haven't then he's exactly what I need cause I will be running low. And it really doesn't have to be the whole table, as long as one person is hellbent this guy is valuetown, multiple people hellbent would be ridiculous.
He's a cheap, aggressive wizard that really needs no other support and can drive serious value in his own right. That's exactly what I'm looking for in my creatures, they need to fit the "marchesa-creature mold" and be able to drive game-winning value by themselves. They should get much better with all the support we have in this deck but they should still be a potential threat without any of it.
I like him. A lot. Relevant ability, cheap and tutorable, very aggressive, and a non-human wizard. Will leave opponent in a very tough place - do I use removal I was saving for marchesa or leave this guy around? Cause at some point he will start raking in value all by himself and win us the game if left around too long. It's a lot like what we were doing with Sage of Hours except this guy needs no other help to start raking in value, he can do it all on his own. Plus he's a 3/1 wizard for 2!
Right?! Biggest news of the day right here. Makes me want to think about other evoke cards. Should we reconsider Ingot Chewer over other artifact removal? Even Shriekmaw looks better now.
Holy crap, that's really broken. I always thought it worked like Flash. Why would they make it a triggered ability? Apparently I need to start evoking mulldrifter a LOT more. You're totally right, it works exactly as you are saying.