Sounds like you know where to address your problems with the deck. With robots, Id have to check your list but its a problem I have been getting alot with Marchesa, draw power to keep the gas going. Either I would smash faces and win easy, or sit there with nothing going and die. I run Grim Haruspex, Necropotence, River Keplie, Skullclamp, Demonic Tutor, Diabolic Intent...cant think of the rest off the top of my head.
Let's see what I have for tutors and drawpower. This list is for my planned AER list and doesn't include other CA sources such as Treasure Keeper.
Bet robots made out like a bandit this block huh. This block seems awesome, we got 3 awesome looking cards out of it and you get those plus you can cash in on any good improvise cards and artifact cards. I'm surprised you're counting Combustible Gearhulk in card draw, do people actually let you draw 3 cards off his ability? Unless you had the luxury of targetting someone with about 10 or less health my group would never let me draw cards with him, they'd just soak up the damage.
Side note: love that you also have a valuetown The Gitrog Monster deck @PlushPenguin, me too. Gitrog and marchesa are my two favorite decks these days. I'm going to have to poke through your decks when I have some time. Want to compare to my gitrog deck and I like your robots-y marchesa. I always liked the artifact build and with this big focus recently on artifacts and artificers its tempting. Plus its always fun to mix things up periodically.
Skyship Plunderer definitely does not have Proliferate. Proliferate allows you to choose any number of permanents or players with counters, Skyship Plunderer only allows you to choose target permanent or player.
The problem is really the original spoil. It was spoiled in a different language and apparently was translated incorrectly. Some sites said "target permanent or player", others (including mtgsalvation) said "any number of permanents or players" and had the exact wording of proliferate. Now that we have the english version its pretty clear it is not proliferate but that's where the confusion came from.
River Kelpie is a good suggestion, he's good but I try to get my curve as low as possible and Treasure Keeper can take over in terms of card advantage.
Another possible cut for me might be Feldon of the Third Path. His effect is unique in the deck but a lot of times he feels useless. Also, heavy on the R..
Another thing possibly worth sharing:
A few weeks ago I made some changes which lowered my average cmc to 3.58. After a few games I felt that mana ramp wasn't really needed anymore. With 11 2-drops and 12 3-drops I was able to quite consistently go T2 creature -> T3 creature -> T4 marchesa (or with a godhand also a creatures T1). Sometimes I therefore chose not to play a manarock T2, in favor of a creature. And late-game they are just bad draws anyway.
So currently I play without the 3 signets (Dimir Signet, Izzet Signet, Rakdos Signet) and Burnished Hart (has always felt a bit clunky..). A whooping 4 free slots! So far I like it and haven't really missed them!
That's funny, I had actually finally given in to all the feldon love from this board and was desperately trying to find a way to include him. Now you're making me go back to doubting him lol.
Honestly I would probably cut one or both of the talismans before the signets. I find the ability to turn one colorless mana into two colored incredibly valuable for always hitting my colors as soon as possible. I'm not sure I'm ready to cut the rocks though, and if I did I feel like I'd have to just replace them with lands. I run a very tight ship in terms of mana sources.
Completely agree on Burnished hart. Sorry but I just really don't like that card, he's so clunky. You play him T3 and it does nothing to help you play marchesa on T4. Instead you have to choose which of the next two turns you want to completely give up for him. And whether you want a double Rampant Growth for 6 or wait and hope your opponents give you your obvious value play on T5 by sac'cing him after. No thanks.
Another one I'm mulling over cutting btw is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. On paper she looks perfect for this deck. Good creature, evasive, neat combat trick, and an additional source of +1/+1 counters that works when dethrone no longer does. In reality though she's been really underwhelming for me. She's basically just been overkill, adding counters when I've already won and largely ineffective when I am behind. What's everyone else's experience with her? Am I completely off base here?
So we just got this spoiled: Hope of Ghirapur. It might be a little hard to get it through but it's cheap to cast, so if it doesn't work out, we didn't waste much mana on it. Also, because it does this through combat damage, Marchesa will more than likely get it a +1/+1 counter, so once we've sacked it and gotten it's effect, we can just do it again!
I don't know if I'd call this card a shoe-in but it's definitely worth testing. The potential is there.
Currently here are my planned cuts. These aren't final but this is what I'm leaning towards:
This list actually pains me to make (other then Grenzo, he's definitely out). Kelpie and skulker are both bombs. These are cards that opponents actually fear. Kelpie is actually easier to cut then skulker because his cost is a bit high. There have been quite a few times where I've just held him in my hand indefinitely because I didn't want to pay 5 for something that wasn't going to win me the game. Skulker is frequently just windmilled.
And I know glen elendra isn't in the main list but that one actually hurts me most of all. When I play her opponents spend the next 2-3 turns completely altering their game plan trying to figure out how to get rid of her or work around her, usually unsuccessfully. And I honestly can't count the number of times I've flipped her in off Sneak Attack to save my skin, either directly or by flipping in Imperial Recruiter/Rune-Scarred Demon/Sidisi, Undead Vizier to go get her and flip her in.
So yea, this is painful. And yet they are still probably more expendable then my other options. But given that I'm cutting guys like those there's no way there's room for something like Hope of Ghirapur. A tiny flyer with a sac ability that can only be used post-combat on my turn that provides disruption for one opponent? Just too niche for me, no way I'm going to be able to find room for that.
Yea, the two are shoe ins for sure, the idea of cloning the mimic to cover our entire board sounds fantastic
Yea but what the heck do we cut?
I guess we could cut Chasm Skulker for Yahenni, Undying Partisan. I'm not happy about it, Chasm skulker is awesome. But at this point everything in this deck is awesome so that's just reality. Skulker is basically just value. He generates his own +1/+1 counters and is a pain for opponents to get rid of since he makes an obnoxious army if you don't exile him. Yahenni can also generate his own counters, can get one faster then skulker due to haste, has additional utility due to his sac ability, and is also a pain to get rid of due to indestructibility if you don't exile him. Plus they have the same CMC.
So yea I think this swap makes sense, could give it a shot. And I agree with @daanzel on Grenzo, Havoc Raiser for Metallic Mimic. He sounded good in theory but I feel like he's fallen flat whenever I've played him. I like the mimic a lot more.
It has additional applications in being able to sacrifice and reset the creature type to something else if you want to loop an etb/death trigger every turn via an infinite sacrifice outlet.
As for me, they can kill it, and I'll have a billion ways of getting it back. Simply amazing.
Haha excellent point. Yea this guy is bonkers, definitely goes straight in.
I like the keyword revolt too. I'm hoping they print someone good because marchesa is primed to abuse it. We sac guys all the time and they can trigger their own revolt abilities on ETB. We'll see what we get though, nothing so far is worth a spot.
Just be careful. Just like original Yawgmoth's Will, any creature deaths on your side will be put into exile instead.
True. But Yawgmoth's will is still arguably the most broken, OP thing you can put in your deck in this entire format. I've resisted the urge so far simply because its basically just goodstuff, doesn't really fit with marchesa at all. But now that its on a stick (a wizard too!) I think we've at least gotta test it. I mean the power level of yawg's will is simply insane. It still boggles my mind that Prophet of Kruphix got the boot but yawg's will remains legal.
Ludevic, Necro-Alchemist is like Edric, Spymaster of Trest except that he only draws one card. But if a player wants to hurt you they can still do so and also draw a card if they hit an opponent with at least one creature, Edric gives people a good reason to go all in on another player. People usually don't want to hit us, because that lets us dethrone someone and Ludevic could reinforce the decision to attack another playere, not sure...?
I guess Ludevic will make people attack more often with a single guy, rather than keep that one for blocking or makes them rather attack someone other than us if the are unsure. But I am not sure If I want to play him? As Central Command said, he let's opponents draw cards. He is a bit better than Howling Mine but how often do I put that card into my decks?
Honestly, I doubt opponents will attack more at all. They just need to hurt someone other than us. That includes themselves. So if they have a painland, city of brass, phyrexian arena, vamp tutor, or any of a bazillion things people regularly play in edh that cost them life for an effect they simply get extra value out of that when Ludevic is in play.
The only person who has to attack and hit someone to get their card is us. Unless we happen to have some noncombat way of hurting opponents.
The artisans will probably make it into my artifact build where it is still very easy to sac the tokens for value.
I mean its great to sac the tokens but this thing is basically an asymmetric torpor orb on a stick. Sure you can have your etb player but i get one too
[edit] also in case it wasnt obvious if you send artisans to the yard and bring them back (aka marchesa's whole thing) you get to keep the token thats out there for good
Artisans scares the crap out of me. I agree we play it cause its awesome but i also know other people will play it. I definitely do not want to see that thing on the other side of the table.
Idk about ludevic. I really dont like giving opponents cards. Also i am incredibly annoyed that when WOTC finally decided to print ludevic they made him super underwhelming grouphuggish commander that doesnt do any necromancy at all. I think i might have to boycott him on principle.
Yea i saw that, been thinking about it, I am curious but not sold. I don't see many counters on my board before someone board wipes or picks off my creatures. It's probably worth testing at least.
I know what you mean, I felt the same. But "double" is a lot and we frequently encounter situations with guys "looping" from yard to battlefield and back. Even just him and a carrion feeder could get real threatening real fast. Or Chasm Skulker.
Bet robots made out like a bandit this block huh. This block seems awesome, we got 3 awesome looking cards out of it and you get those plus you can cash in on any good improvise cards and artifact cards. I'm surprised you're counting Combustible Gearhulk in card draw, do people actually let you draw 3 cards off his ability? Unless you had the luxury of targetting someone with about 10 or less health my group would never let me draw cards with him, they'd just soak up the damage.
Side note: love that you also have a valuetown The Gitrog Monster deck @PlushPenguin, me too. Gitrog and marchesa are my two favorite decks these days. I'm going to have to poke through your decks when I have some time. Want to compare to my gitrog deck and I like your robots-y marchesa. I always liked the artifact build and with this big focus recently on artifacts and artificers its tempting. Plus its always fun to mix things up periodically.
The problem is really the original spoil. It was spoiled in a different language and apparently was translated incorrectly. Some sites said "target permanent or player", others (including mtgsalvation) said "any number of permanents or players" and had the exact wording of proliferate. Now that we have the english version its pretty clear it is not proliferate but that's where the confusion came from.
That's funny, I had actually finally given in to all the feldon love from this board and was desperately trying to find a way to include him. Now you're making me go back to doubting him lol.
Honestly I would probably cut one or both of the talismans before the signets. I find the ability to turn one colorless mana into two colored incredibly valuable for always hitting my colors as soon as possible. I'm not sure I'm ready to cut the rocks though, and if I did I feel like I'd have to just replace them with lands. I run a very tight ship in terms of mana sources.
Completely agree on Burnished hart. Sorry but I just really don't like that card, he's so clunky. You play him T3 and it does nothing to help you play marchesa on T4. Instead you have to choose which of the next two turns you want to completely give up for him. And whether you want a double Rampant Growth for 6 or wait and hope your opponents give you your obvious value play on T5 by sac'cing him after. No thanks.
Another one I'm mulling over cutting btw is Drana, Liberator of Malakir. On paper she looks perfect for this deck. Good creature, evasive, neat combat trick, and an additional source of +1/+1 counters that works when dethrone no longer does. In reality though she's been really underwhelming for me. She's basically just been overkill, adding counters when I've already won and largely ineffective when I am behind. What's everyone else's experience with her? Am I completely off base here?
Currently here are my planned cuts. These aren't final but this is what I'm leaning towards:
- Grenzo, Havoc Raiser -> Metallic Mimic
- River Kelpie -> Faerie Artisans (I haven't had time to do my C16 cuts yet either)
- Chasm Skulker -> Yahenni, Undying Partisan
- Glen Elendra Archmage -> Treasure Keeper
This list actually pains me to make (other then Grenzo, he's definitely out). Kelpie and skulker are both bombs. These are cards that opponents actually fear. Kelpie is actually easier to cut then skulker because his cost is a bit high. There have been quite a few times where I've just held him in my hand indefinitely because I didn't want to pay 5 for something that wasn't going to win me the game. Skulker is frequently just windmilled.And I know glen elendra isn't in the main list but that one actually hurts me most of all. When I play her opponents spend the next 2-3 turns completely altering their game plan trying to figure out how to get rid of her or work around her, usually unsuccessfully. And I honestly can't count the number of times I've flipped her in off Sneak Attack to save my skin, either directly or by flipping in Imperial Recruiter/Rune-Scarred Demon/Sidisi, Undead Vizier to go get her and flip her in.
So yea, this is painful. And yet they are still probably more expendable then my other options. But given that I'm cutting guys like those there's no way there's room for something like Hope of Ghirapur. A tiny flyer with a sac ability that can only be used post-combat on my turn that provides disruption for one opponent? Just too niche for me, no way I'm going to be able to find room for that.
I guess we could cut Chasm Skulker for Yahenni, Undying Partisan. I'm not happy about it, Chasm skulker is awesome. But at this point everything in this deck is awesome so that's just reality. Skulker is basically just value. He generates his own +1/+1 counters and is a pain for opponents to get rid of since he makes an obnoxious army if you don't exile him. Yahenni can also generate his own counters, can get one faster then skulker due to haste, has additional utility due to his sac ability, and is also a pain to get rid of due to indestructibility if you don't exile him. Plus they have the same CMC.
So yea I think this swap makes sense, could give it a shot. And I agree with @daanzel on Grenzo, Havoc Raiser for Metallic Mimic. He sounded good in theory but I feel like he's fallen flat whenever I've played him. I like the mimic a lot more.
Yea but what the heck do we cut?
Haha excellent point. Yea this guy is bonkers, definitely goes straight in.
I like the keyword revolt too. I'm hoping they print someone good because marchesa is primed to abuse it. We sac guys all the time and they can trigger their own revolt abilities on ETB. We'll see what we get though, nothing so far is worth a spot.
True. But Yawgmoth's will is still arguably the most broken, OP thing you can put in your deck in this entire format. I've resisted the urge so far simply because its basically just goodstuff, doesn't really fit with marchesa at all. But now that its on a stick (a wizard too!) I think we've at least gotta test it. I mean the power level of yawg's will is simply insane. It still boggles my mind that Prophet of Kruphix got the boot but yawg's will remains legal.
Honestly, I doubt opponents will attack more at all. They just need to hurt someone other than us. That includes themselves. So if they have a painland, city of brass, phyrexian arena, vamp tutor, or any of a bazillion things people regularly play in edh that cost them life for an effect they simply get extra value out of that when Ludevic is in play.
The only person who has to attack and hit someone to get their card is us. Unless we happen to have some noncombat way of hurting opponents.
I mean its great to sac the tokens but this thing is basically an asymmetric torpor orb on a stick. Sure you can have your etb player but i get one too
[edit] also in case it wasnt obvious if you send artisans to the yard and bring them back (aka marchesa's whole thing) you get to keep the token thats out there for good
Artisans scares the crap out of me. I agree we play it cause its awesome but i also know other people will play it. I definitely do not want to see that thing on the other side of the table.
Idk about ludevic. I really dont like giving opponents cards. Also i am incredibly annoyed that when WOTC finally decided to print ludevic they made him super underwhelming grouphuggish commander that doesnt do any necromancy at all. I think i might have to boycott him on principle.
I know what you mean, I felt the same. But "double" is a lot and we frequently encounter situations with guys "looping" from yard to battlefield and back. Even just him and a carrion feeder could get real threatening real fast. Or Chasm Skulker.
[EDIT] Until auto-carding works, image below