Herald of Seven Servants seems like a no-brainer must include. 3 mana creature that makes our whole team unblockable? Um. Yes. Ruin Raider - Basically a 3 mana dark confidant that gives me a card the turn I play him. Seems strong. Not a wizard sadly and depends on his power but eye is caught. Hostage Taker - Costs 4 but wow that's fun. Exile something until he's gone and a way to make it permanent by casting it yourself? Excellent
Arcane Adaptation - Man I really want to play this thing naming wizards. Its cheap but its not a creature and does nothing by itself. Unsure, worth considering though. Ogre Fleet Ravager - It costs 5 so questionable but it definitely hits the table with a boom. 1/3 life gone from all players. Seems like something an aggro deck could enjoy. Menace and deathtouch make it pretty hard to justify blocking. And its a wizard. Aegriah's Marauders - 5 mana has to be a wincon right? Gratuitous Violence on a stick seems like it should probably qualify.
Maybe I'm getting a little overeager since these are unconfirmed. But if true, wow that was an exciting leak.
I don't think you'll very frequently want to/need to attack someone and then use it to get around Ghostly Prison/Propaganda in order to attack someone else or re-direct one attacker away from you (in which case it's basically just Maze of Ith). It doesn't seem very useful.
If ghostly prison and propaganda are actually a problem for us then this guy doesn't help at all. The attack trigger has passed, we already attacked the wrong person. And redirecting one attacker away from you when they aren't expecting it could be totally game-changing if it buys you another turn. That's a very valid use case although not enough of one to justify including him.
The main use case I was thinking of was removal. Take an attacking creature and redirect him to the guy that can kill it. That seems like the primary way he would be used. But there's lots of situational ones. The ones you presented are some, others off the top of my head:
Redirecting our guy to a planeswalker or player near death after getting our dethrone trigger
Redirecting someone we need alive (ours or an opponents) after some surprise has occurred (flash creature, instant, etc.)
Redirecting a creature to us to save someone when absolutely necessary or just get our life lower for dethrone
Redirecting a creature to someone with No Mercy out
Maybe its not good enough since it doesn't combo with anything in our deck like Dualcaster Mage does. But I bet it wouldn't be a dead draw.
Venser becomes capsize + a bear for 5 with inalla, and sneak attack can make it 2 mana. I think she is incredibly strong in our deck. That is just 1 example of obsurd things we can do.
Is that a good enough argument though? Lots of things are absurd with sneak attack and venser. What I don't like is that this 5 mana creature is a vanilla 4/5. And only when combined with other cards in our deck does she start to bring value to the table. She'll have a target on her head too as soon as she's there, everyone knows were a deck of valuetown ETBs. If someone plows her then we wasted a whole turn.
Plus, she has to copy two things to be better then just putting another clone in our deck. So realistically, how often will she be better then a clone?
There's no harm in trying her out I suppose I'm just skeptical.
Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
I think Mairsil is a less desirable version of Necrotic Ooze. Portal Mage only has a useful ETB one time, unless you're able to flicker it or make token copies of it all the time during the declare attacker's step. It's a Human, so Mikaeus doesn't touch it. I don't think either has a slot.
I guess he's Gate Mage now, sorry about that, what I get for going off unconfirmed spoilers. And what you said was also the same arguments I myself used for a while with Dualcaster Mage. Then one day I decided to give him a shot and realized I was completely wrong. Cheap wizards with built in flash and strong disruptive ETBs are excellent. Not everything needs to be marchesa-able. Besides we have clones, we have sneak attack, we have feldon, just because marchesa can't loop his ETB doesn't mean we won't use it again. And if we do it will probably be completely out of left field and game-changing, that's how its been every time I cloned dualcaster at instant speed to the surprise of all my opponents.
I'm not saying this guy is a shoe-in. But I think he's definitely worth considering. It's simply is that ETB disruptive enough. Definitely think there's a lot of opportunities where I would be glad to have it.
Yeah, I thought that he is good. I currently have Treasure Keeper as my 4 drop Card Advantage slot. This guy gives us 3 cards plus 5 life loss instead of Keeper's single card that costs 3 or less. Being 3B makes him easy to cast too.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
I personally think that wizard is strong not because of that ability (It's basically Flameshadow Conjuring on a 4/5 for 5 with a small extra ability), but because that ability is active when in the command zone.
This essentially means that decks with this wizard at the helm gets a free, unkillable Flameshadow Conjuring for wizards. You rarely have a reason to cast it from the command zone unless you don't have much else to do.
I'm personally testing Time Sieve for artifacts. 5 is a lot, but I can throw away modulars and myr tokens from Genesis Chamber. Plus, paying 2 once for repeatable extra turns as long as you have the fodder can be really quite strong. It feels weird talking about a more combo-like Marchesa than the aggro-midrange builds that people have here.
I actually at this point have so many ways to get ravager that I'm trying the deck out WITHOUT bad Mike.
And for the record, I think Patron of the Vein is actually quite strong, but ONLY if you can dependably get an instant speed free sac outlet. If you have an infinite sac outlet, it kills things every turn. Exiling them as they die is actually a pretty big benefit. It may not win the game, but it will lock down the table until it is dealt with and has synergies with any vampires in your deck. I think having a number of ways of getting rid of problematic cards is important and I still run black gearhulk and feel okay about it.
That being said, if you are playing low to the ground then you may not want it.
And yes, I do think the lack of removal in many Marchesa lists can be a problem, because one way other decks can beat you is by ignoring what you do or simply not answering what you do and go over the top. Also answering gravehate is kind of important.
I agree with your assessment of Inalla. I thought the same when I saw her. In the commandzone, especially with a deck built almost entirely around ETB triggers and wizards with ETBs she's a powerhouse. I'm not a huge fan of her in our deck. We have a lot of wizards but they're all much cheaper then her, so who knows what we have left in our hand when we play her. And then unless we got her in via sneak attack we have to wait a whole turn for her to do anything special. And then maybe we can get something for an extra one mana? I mean I'm looking through the list, we may have a decent amount of wizards but its not overwhelming and only like half have an ETB. I'm just not a fan of her in the 99.
You have made me reconsider Patron though. For some reason it didn't click until you said it: its an asymmetric wrath if you have a sac effect. It keeps bouncing in and out of the board once a turn until someone stops her or you win. That is really powerful and I think I do want to try and find Patron a spot. Whenever I manage to get an every turn ETB like that I almost always win. Usually its Metallic Mimic/Sage of Fables + Venser, Shaper Savant/Solemn Simulacrum/<pretty much any other ETB> + a sac effect. So anyone that is this effect in a box really has to be considered I think, even if they cost 6. Just be careful when you shoot other commanders since those won't make it to the graveyard
What do we think of Patron of the Vein? He costs a lot at 6 mana, but he kills something and makes a counter for himself when he does, making him easy to repeat with Marchesa.
Not a fan of that one, costs way too much. Even if that second ability was worded as a replacement effect I think its overcosted. But as it is they still get their dies triggers and a chance to respond to your trigger. I mean its cute but I don't think its good enough for its cost.
Bloodline Necromancer was spoiled. I know many of you won't play it cuz its 5 cmc, but its a value creature that helps you come back from behind and can occasionally gain you some much needed life in cases that you would want it. Also, it lets you throw Marchesa into the graveyard instead of paying 8+ mana to cast from the command zone later in the game.
I mean isn't that just a worse Phyrexian Delver for us? A card we're already not playing because the value to cost ratio is too far off?
The 5-drop I'm really looking at right now is Kindred Discovery. 5 mana non-creature is definitely not ideal but man that card is a powerhouse for us.
Never ever ever cut living death. Pariah is a good cut, all the others should stay.
Don't know if it was in this thread or one of the others, but people talked about how Living Death is often a dead card because we are ahead on the board and/or other players graveyards are stocked much better than our own. Although in most situations where you want to play it Living Death is really awesome. I also don't play Entomb (don't own one) or other ways to fill my grave. I am not sure, maybe I should just switch some cards around and try them out, I can always switch back later.
When I have been behind on board the whole game I usually tutor Living Death to wrath the board
When I was ahead on board and am now behind I usually tutor Living Death to wipe them out and bring my board back simulataneously
When I am ahead on board and there isn't a card that says "you win the game right now if you play this" I usually tutor Living Death because I know the only way I don't win is if they wrath. With LD in hand I have no fear, a wrath just makes everything worse for them.
Basically LD is almost definitely my #1 tutor target. More then Sneak Attack, more than Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, more then any of the other horribly broken cards in this deck. I cannot imagine ever cutting it or what kind of meta exists where its constantly a dead draw. Even if there is a Rest in Peace out its still an amazing wrath since it forces everyone to sacrifice everything.
And as for other graveyards being worse then mine, that's extremely rare. And even when it happens the odds that I can't deal with whatever they put out or win faster after LD is even rarer. And in these rare circumstances where it helps someone else more then you, sometimes its still a good political maneuver since it likely sets back the current threatening player and makes someone new the threat.
Thoughts? Very very high on the curve, but does damm near everything we want. Tutoring all day long. Taking us off the throne. Sac outlet. And brings the beef.
Though, might only find it's way into a budget/ casual build...
Too expensive; my curve caps out at 6. Marchesa doesn't play to the long game.
There's only one card over 6 that I play - Rune-Scarred Demon. And that's because he's just so brutal as a giant flying body and his ETB. And obviously completely insane off of Sneak Attack (although what isn't insane of sneak attack).
I am giving very serious consideration to this guy. He is better in some ways, at the very least he is as good. Also frankly I need more fatties. The graveyard hate is getting out of control, there's just way too much good hate. And now every deck has access to an on-demand Bojuka Bog in Scavenger Bog and a colorless Withered Wretch in Crook of Condemnation. Recycling any cheap creatures is just not a given anymore these days. Wizards has given all decks a lot of tools to really make graveyard abuse difficult with a number of their recent cards.
I'm exactly where you are. I really like it but idk if it's good enough to warrant cutting something else.
Olivia, Mobilized for War?
PROS
Haste is free. Olivia makes you pitch a card to grant it (pretty expensive cost, I use this ability very infrequently because of that)
Free EOT sac effect. Usable once per turn even if the creature didn't need haste.
CONS
Not a creature. 3/3 flyers for 3 are pretty awesome, big con here.
No dethrone = probably no haste. Olivia provides a non dethrone source of counters, this really banks on dethrone.
No immediate +1/+1 counter. I'd expect to be able to get a +1/+1 counter via dethrone if I'm using this ability but its worth noting.
I can't imagine replacing any other haste source for this. And I feel like the cons probably outweigh the pros even for olivia. Could replace a sac effect? Maybe Eldrazi Monument since it is also a noncreature? But honestly that feels like a pretty crappy trade.
Yea idk. And all the cards not pulling their weight have been cut long ago.
I have started testing Hanweir Garrison, in addition to the Battlements, as a way to go wide, but also because of some digging I did when I played around with an Infect version of Marchesa and discovered Breath of Fury. Garrison and that is an infinite attack step but more importantly, Breath is a psuedo-sac outlet and good even if we're not swinging forever.
I forgot all about Breath of Fury. I definitely have one sitting in my box somewhere, I forget why I bought it. I currently have no equipment or auras in my build but if any deserves a spot its probably that. I was never a huge fan of Scourge of the Throne (even if he is effective), maybe I'll try it out.
Also I kind of forgot how much power Hanweir Garrison can throw down for 3 mana so maybe its time to see if he can find a slot too. I do run the battlements already so at the very least it could be fun to run him until I managed to meld him once then decide if he actually deserves a spot.
Anyone already had the pleasure of playing with Marchesa's new toys? Curious how they played out! For me, Metallic Mimic, Yehenni, Undying Partisan and Treasure Keeper all made it in, but unfortunately can't play a game until next week..
All in all set looks great so far, my Brago and Ezuri both got new stuff as well ^^
Metallic Mimic is a superstar. He is just as busted as we thought. He's Sage of Fables on crack because not only is he cheaper but he can change his type around mid-game to better fit the tech you have. You can loop anything with a pulse now, not just wizards. I highly recommend looping a Solemn Simulacrum once a turn for a round.
Treasure Keeper is cool. Only played him once so far in a very weird game. We do planechase EDH a lot and an opponent decided to play Chaos Warp with Glimmervoid Basin out there. He then followed it with a Swords to Plowshares so that's why he was willing to risk the nasty creatures coming out. Obviously I was ill-prepared for this particular form of removal since I had just been warp world'ed so all keeper ended up doing was getting sac'ced instead of plowed to net me a permanent instead of additional life and hand off the throne to someone else. Not terribly exciting but not bad either.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan hasn't made it onto the battlefield yet. Sac effects are always good, I'm not really expecting much more out of him. Maybe if I face off against a token deck sometime he'll do something awesome.
Eh seems pretty limited. Only relevant with another attacking creature until EOT and doesn't get counters, etbs or attack triggers from them.
Also really liking hostage taker more and more. Just stealing all the sol rings and cheap rocks is huge
Herald of Seven Servants seems like a no-brainer must include. 3 mana creature that makes our whole team unblockable? Um. Yes.
Ruin Raider - Basically a 3 mana dark confidant that gives me a card the turn I play him. Seems strong. Not a wizard sadly and depends on his power but eye is caught.
Hostage Taker - Costs 4 but wow that's fun. Exile something until he's gone and a way to make it permanent by casting it yourself? Excellent
Arcane Adaptation - Man I really want to play this thing naming wizards. Its cheap but its not a creature and does nothing by itself. Unsure, worth considering though.
Ogre Fleet Ravager - It costs 5 so questionable but it definitely hits the table with a boom. 1/3 life gone from all players. Seems like something an aggro deck could enjoy. Menace and deathtouch make it pretty hard to justify blocking. And its a wizard.
Aegriah's Marauders - 5 mana has to be a wincon right? Gratuitous Violence on a stick seems like it should probably qualify.
Maybe I'm getting a little overeager since these are unconfirmed. But if true, wow that was an exciting leak.
If ghostly prison and propaganda are actually a problem for us then this guy doesn't help at all. The attack trigger has passed, we already attacked the wrong person. And redirecting one attacker away from you when they aren't expecting it could be totally game-changing if it buys you another turn. That's a very valid use case although not enough of one to justify including him.
The main use case I was thinking of was removal. Take an attacking creature and redirect him to the guy that can kill it. That seems like the primary way he would be used. But there's lots of situational ones. The ones you presented are some, others off the top of my head:
Maybe its not good enough since it doesn't combo with anything in our deck like Dualcaster Mage does. But I bet it wouldn't be a dead draw.
Is that a good enough argument though? Lots of things are absurd with sneak attack and venser. What I don't like is that this 5 mana creature is a vanilla 4/5. And only when combined with other cards in our deck does she start to bring value to the table. She'll have a target on her head too as soon as she's there, everyone knows were a deck of valuetown ETBs. If someone plows her then we wasted a whole turn.
Plus, she has to copy two things to be better then just putting another clone in our deck. So realistically, how often will she be better then a clone?
There's no harm in trying her out I suppose I'm just skeptical.
I guess he's Gate Mage now, sorry about that, what I get for going off unconfirmed spoilers. And what you said was also the same arguments I myself used for a while with Dualcaster Mage. Then one day I decided to give him a shot and realized I was completely wrong. Cheap wizards with built in flash and strong disruptive ETBs are excellent. Not everything needs to be marchesa-able. Besides we have clones, we have sneak attack, we have feldon, just because marchesa can't loop his ETB doesn't mean we won't use it again. And if we do it will probably be completely out of left field and game-changing, that's how its been every time I cloned dualcaster at instant speed to the surprise of all my opponents.
I'm not saying this guy is a shoe-in. But I think he's definitely worth considering. It's simply is that ETB disruptive enough. Definitely think there's a lot of opportunities where I would be glad to have it.
Agreed. Seems like the right swap too. Treasure keeper has been fine for me but rarely game changing. This guy seems much stronger.
What about Mairsil, the Pretender and Portal Mage? I love that Mairsil is 4 power for 4 and tech but i definitely don't like that he'll usually have to pull from my hand. And adds a limitation to the activated abilities. I think I'll pass unless anyone has a convincing argument.
Portal Mage though fits our bill of small, cheap wizard tech. I could see him being quite disruptive too, a lot like dualcaster mage. Should we find him a slot?
I agree with your assessment of Inalla. I thought the same when I saw her. In the commandzone, especially with a deck built almost entirely around ETB triggers and wizards with ETBs she's a powerhouse. I'm not a huge fan of her in our deck. We have a lot of wizards but they're all much cheaper then her, so who knows what we have left in our hand when we play her. And then unless we got her in via sneak attack we have to wait a whole turn for her to do anything special. And then maybe we can get something for an extra one mana? I mean I'm looking through the list, we may have a decent amount of wizards but its not overwhelming and only like half have an ETB. I'm just not a fan of her in the 99.
You have made me reconsider Patron though. For some reason it didn't click until you said it: its an asymmetric wrath if you have a sac effect. It keeps bouncing in and out of the board once a turn until someone stops her or you win. That is really powerful and I think I do want to try and find Patron a spot. Whenever I manage to get an every turn ETB like that I almost always win. Usually its Metallic Mimic/Sage of Fables + Venser, Shaper Savant/Solemn Simulacrum/<pretty much any other ETB> + a sac effect. So anyone that is this effect in a box really has to be considered I think, even if they cost 6. Just be careful when you shoot other commanders since those won't make it to the graveyard
Not a fan of that one, costs way too much. Even if that second ability was worded as a replacement effect I think its overcosted. But as it is they still get their dies triggers and a chance to respond to your trigger. I mean its cute but I don't think its good enough for its cost.
Huh. I forgot about him. Why aren't we playing him? That's a pretty potent 4 drop.
I mean isn't that just a worse Phyrexian Delver for us? A card we're already not playing because the value to cost ratio is too far off?
The 5-drop I'm really looking at right now is Kindred Discovery. 5 mana non-creature is definitely not ideal but man that card is a powerhouse for us.
When I have been behind on board the whole game I usually tutor Living Death to wrath the board
When I was ahead on board and am now behind I usually tutor Living Death to wipe them out and bring my board back simulataneously
When I am ahead on board and there isn't a card that says "you win the game right now if you play this" I usually tutor Living Death because I know the only way I don't win is if they wrath. With LD in hand I have no fear, a wrath just makes everything worse for them.
Basically LD is almost definitely my #1 tutor target. More then Sneak Attack, more than Mikaeus, the Unhallowed, more then any of the other horribly broken cards in this deck. I cannot imagine ever cutting it or what kind of meta exists where its constantly a dead draw. Even if there is a Rest in Peace out its still an amazing wrath since it forces everyone to sacrifice everything.
And as for other graveyards being worse then mine, that's extremely rare. And even when it happens the odds that I can't deal with whatever they put out or win faster after LD is even rarer. And in these rare circumstances where it helps someone else more then you, sometimes its still a good political maneuver since it likely sets back the current threatening player and makes someone new the threat.
There's only one card over 6 that I play - Rune-Scarred Demon. And that's because he's just so brutal as a giant flying body and his ETB. And obviously completely insane off of Sneak Attack (although what isn't insane of sneak attack).
I am giving very serious consideration to this guy. He is better in some ways, at the very least he is as good. Also frankly I need more fatties. The graveyard hate is getting out of control, there's just way too much good hate. And now every deck has access to an on-demand Bojuka Bog in Scavenger Bog and a colorless Withered Wretch in Crook of Condemnation. Recycling any cheap creatures is just not a given anymore these days. Wizards has given all decks a lot of tools to really make graveyard abuse difficult with a number of their recent cards.
Olivia, Mobilized for War?
PROS
Haste is free. Olivia makes you pitch a card to grant it (pretty expensive cost, I use this ability very infrequently because of that)
Free EOT sac effect. Usable once per turn even if the creature didn't need haste.
CONS
Not a creature. 3/3 flyers for 3 are pretty awesome, big con here.
No dethrone = probably no haste. Olivia provides a non dethrone source of counters, this really banks on dethrone.
No immediate +1/+1 counter. I'd expect to be able to get a +1/+1 counter via dethrone if I'm using this ability but its worth noting.
I can't imagine replacing any other haste source for this. And I feel like the cons probably outweigh the pros even for olivia. Could replace a sac effect? Maybe Eldrazi Monument since it is also a noncreature? But honestly that feels like a pretty crappy trade.
Yea idk. And all the cards not pulling their weight have been cut long ago.
I forgot all about Breath of Fury. I definitely have one sitting in my box somewhere, I forget why I bought it. I currently have no equipment or auras in my build but if any deserves a spot its probably that. I was never a huge fan of Scourge of the Throne (even if he is effective), maybe I'll try it out.
Also I kind of forgot how much power Hanweir Garrison can throw down for 3 mana so maybe its time to see if he can find a slot too. I do run the battlements already so at the very least it could be fun to run him until I managed to meld him once then decide if he actually deserves a spot.
Metallic Mimic is a superstar. He is just as busted as we thought. He's Sage of Fables on crack because not only is he cheaper but he can change his type around mid-game to better fit the tech you have. You can loop anything with a pulse now, not just wizards. I highly recommend looping a Solemn Simulacrum once a turn for a round.
Treasure Keeper is cool. Only played him once so far in a very weird game. We do planechase EDH a lot and an opponent decided to play Chaos Warp with Glimmervoid Basin out there. He then followed it with a Swords to Plowshares so that's why he was willing to risk the nasty creatures coming out. Obviously I was ill-prepared for this particular form of removal since I had just been warp world'ed so all keeper ended up doing was getting sac'ced instead of plowed to net me a permanent instead of additional life and hand off the throne to someone else. Not terribly exciting but not bad either.
Yahenni, Undying Partisan hasn't made it onto the battlefield yet. Sac effects are always good, I'm not really expecting much more out of him. Maybe if I face off against a token deck sometime he'll do something awesome.