The problem I see with that comparison is that resolving an Assault doesn't instantly win you the game like Kiki does. It usually takes two or three turns to close out a game after an Assault hits. Which is a fair amount of time for an opponent to draw an out to your engine. Technically yes, you can win without it, but when the deck is built to function optimally with it, having it at the ready is ideal. You also have ways of filtering it out of your hand if it is a redundant copy in the face of no removal. I can't imagine added consistency in your primary wincon is worse than a random 1 of something else.
EDIT: I'm being very finicky about a decklist to play this Wednesday. I'm giving Trade Routes another attempt and cutting Goblin Guides, since they haven't been performing as well as I'd have liked (the Tier 1 decks have disappeared for a few weeks now). So I'm testing 2 Trade Routes and want to get 3 Young Pyromancers back in but I'm pulling 5 cards out (4x GG, 1x Jace Beleren) for 6 cards to come in (3x Young Pyromancer, 2x Trade Routes, 1x Faithless Looting). I'm thinking of shaving off an Izzet Charm or swapping a Snapcaster Mage for the last Pyromancer. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Here's what I'm looking at right now:
I run two Grudges SB just because it ends up being better than cards like Young Pyromancer/Goblin Guide in that match up. I have plenty of other incidental hate that I can bring against them depending on the build. Though I do agree that we don't have too much issue with Affinity.
It seems like this comes up from time to time so I'll just reiterate that Seismic Assault should be a 4-of in this deck. It is literally the most broken thing you can be doing and want to see it as soon as possible every game. Yes it is a card that you only want one of in play but it is a ridiculously strong card and will be removed as soon as the opponent is capable of doing so. Having a back up one to play gives you more outs in any given game. It is the reason this deck exists at all. Otherwise you are just moving towards an inferior Jund deck.
It really depends on your opening hand and how you see the next few turns playing out. Generally, yes, you'll want to grab R/x Shocklands but not always. Playing Assault a few turns later is fine if you are playing the control option as opposed to playing the aggro route where getting a turn 3 Assault is important.
If you're not liking Young Pyromancer, try out Goblin Guide. It usually gets in for 4-6 damage and gives you info about your opponent's hand. The extra damage is usually pretty important when it comes to closing out games. So you only need two copies of Loam to resolve in order to win instead of 3+.
People have tested with Dakmor Salvage and have found it underwhelming. I haven't personally tested it, but generally, you're going to hit Loam more often and want to Dredge that instead or you'd rather draw something more useful than a Retrace of Crime or Jab. With all of the control in your meta, Raven's Crime might be worth going up to 3 or 4. Desperate Ravings probably doesn't need to be there. Same with Infestation, like others have been saying. I would definitely recommend trying out Young Pyromancer over Bloodghasts. Making a token off of each Retraced spell is pretty sweet value. Plus the synergy with Smallpox. Personally, I always recommend running 4 Seismic Assaults. It's too critical for the deck to go over the top with it that you want to see it every game. With Pod having MB enchantment hate, Control/Combo having counter spells, targeted discard being everywhere and Abrupt Decay/Maelstrom Pulse being a thing, it is never really a bad thing to have a back up.
Aggressive Mining seems mediocre. Without spells that ramp lands into play, it doesn't seem like it'd really do anything for us unless we were already insanely ahead. In which case, why would you need it?
I tested with Realms Uncharted a long time ago. It's basically just a more expensive Life from the Loam. There aren't enough utility lands to really capitalize on it. So it's just 3cmc into 4 damage. Essentially having the same problem as Grisly Salvage and its ilk. It's nifty but in the end it really doesn't do anything productive.
Waste Not does seem solid, especially with the Loam+Raven's Crime. The main problem I see with a deck like that, is you are going to start leaning more on GB and less on R. I see Assault getting cut from a list like that over time (and probably rightfully so) which would disassociate it from this primer's topic. I've considered building a GB discard deck that utilizes Waste Not in a manner similar to 8-Rack since that seems more linear and effective. It'd just fall away from being an Assault Loam deck. I'd say test it out when you can and see how shoehorning it in works out, since there is some overlap in strategy but don't try to force R in it if it doesn't make sense.
The problem I see with your Naya list is that you are soft to Combo. The early interactions of just burn/Path, seem underwhelming outside of small creature match ups. Without Snapcaster Mage those sorts of spells don't really advance your board state and you don't have the aggressive early game to capitalize on the burn. I think it may just be that the curve is too high in the deck. The interaction of Knight and Courser is cute but I'd have to actually play with it to see if it accrues enough value. Ajani is a powerhouse but as a 3-of it seems excessive. What is Eternal Witness doing for you? There's just a lot of contention at the 3-slot and I think dropping the curve might help out. Too bad the only useful Landfall cards don't really work well with the rest of the deck. I feel like there is something powerful lurking in the depths of Naya Loam but I'm not sure how best to exploit it. Maybe going a bit bigger on the curve and making use of Lotus Cobra? Ajani and Knight are definitely solid reasons for white but the spells that accompany them don't mesh as well. Maybe looking into running hate cards like Rule of Law or Ghostly Prision as ways to stall the game are worth looking into. I'm really not sure.
I like Goblin Guide for more competitive metas because it's a low mana investment for 4-8 damage. I was having trouble closing out games against Tier 1 decks, even when I got Assault and Loam together. I could do between 12-16 damage over a turn or two which is substantial but won't win you games. Goblin Guide gets in the additional points of damage to make the deck capable of consistent turn 4 kills. So basically, I can go for a kill, instead of having to throw my lands at creatures and grind out games. Which opens up the opponent into drawing an out against me. He opens up the ability to play a solid tempo deck with Mid-Game reach. The draw back is actually not that terrible either. I get to see almost every card going in to my opponent's hand, which lets me prepare for potential things to play around as well as just general information. If he's doing his job, then the game should be closed out before the extra lands the opponent may draw can become relevant. Since in the early turns you are only playing one spell a turn typically. I was consistently impressed with him back when I originally put it in. I started with him as a 3-of originally just as a "it might be nice to see one in a game" and quickly became a "I want this in every opening hand." So I bumped him up to a 4-of. It's really solid.
It's potentially possible but I've lost to Blood Moon while piloting this deck. We run so many non-basics and other color intensive cards that it makes Blood Moon backbreaking against us. You could tailor a deck to be primarily GR and run it main and probably get some decent mileage out of it in a more competitive environment. Though I think going two colors means foregoing a lot of powerful cards that are gained by splashing another color.
How's Countryside Crusher been working for you? I always found him rather clunky in my testing but I haven't touched him in a long time. I like having as few 3-drops in the deck to keep consistency up and having him, with Liliana and Assault lead to slow hands and less pressure.
My store has been transitioning to more players and more competitive decks (finally!). So I'm going to be switching back to MB Goblin Guides instead of the more grindy Young Pyromancer. I'll see how that goes this Wednesday. Unless I feel like running my Wildfire deck... Regardless, eventually I will give the deck a run with the changes and let you guys know how it goes.
It's probably too cute for Modern. It has the time in standard to escalate out of control in the face of expensive removal spells. The removal is just too cheap and efficient to justify the mana and card investment. You'd have to wait until you had 5 mana to ensure you get 2 rats out of it and stand a chance of it actually going off.
Bow sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a try next week. There's a fair amount of Burn and Affinity showing up at my store, so some extra hate wouldn't be bad.
I think the benefit of Ravine over a second Village is that it does afford you color fixing. Two Villages and a basic Forest are three straight Green sources in a deck that wants to hit triple Red on turn 3. The activation cost of Village is a huge plus to it but I'd rather run Ravine for the color fixing. I like both cards but they have their pros and cons. I'd advocate a split if you feel like running two manlands but I'd place preference on Ravine over Village just because of how important the color requirements are to the deck as a whole.
Lavaclaw has always been rather mediocre for me. I know Bronson and others have rode it to victory but the cases where it is a worthwhile win condition are few and far between. Treetop Village as an evasive 3/3 for less of a mana investment has been much stronger and a better threat for me in my experience. Though I guess it depends on the build of the deck, but I've always been happy drawing Village, whereas Reaches has been hit or miss. I agree, you don't need two Raging Ravines. Spawning Pool seems mediocre. What are you blocking with it that you aren't just losing in the first place? Goyf? Outside of that the creatures of Modern are getting your opponent more value than that, or are evasive and don't care about your land. On top of that, I'd rather block Goyf with my own Goyfs anyways.
Welp, I played that Jund list I posted on Wednesday. It was rather underwhelming. Though it may just be for my meta. Smallpox never was that detrimental to me but it ended up being a dead card more than I wanted or just did not have nearly the impact that I needed it to have. I played against Big Affinity, UR Delver, a Mono-W Standard deck, Melira Pod, and UWR Twin. Only beating the Affinity and Standard deck. I think a lot of the problem I had was a lack of targeted removal. Abrupt Decay was nice but relying on Smallpox as an answer card was poor. I lost several games where, if I had Lightning Bolt in hand, I wouldn't have lost. To be fair, I also made a couple of play mistakes (like Faithless Looting post combat, turning Goyf into a 5/6 from a 3/4). I just felt like counter spells would have been more effective at holding off my opponents than discard. While Raven's Crime did do work, tapping out for it to clear their hand and then losing to top decks happened more than I cared to admit. However, Raven's Crime with Young Pyromancer is insane. I won a game by making 11 Elemental Tokens over the course of a couple turns. The games were all close and every round I lost went 2-1 to my opponent but it's just not the kind of playstyle that works for me.
What is your list W3BL3Y? I couldn't find a post of yours with a list in it. Different colors open up different possibilities. Though, Ancient Grudge, Spellskite and Engineered Explosives are generally good inclusions. I like having access to a lot of Ghost Quarter. Anger of the Gods is pretty solid in a lot of match ups as well. As far as what else, it depends on the third/fourth color(s) you are splashing.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern:
RUG Forever A Loam
Counter CatUWRG
RGTitan Fall
QuestSteelUW
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
EDIT: I'm being very finicky about a decklist to play this Wednesday. I'm giving Trade Routes another attempt and cutting Goblin Guides, since they haven't been performing as well as I'd have liked (the Tier 1 decks have disappeared for a few weeks now). So I'm testing 2 Trade Routes and want to get 3 Young Pyromancers back in but I'm pulling 5 cards out (4x GG, 1x Jace Beleren) for 6 cards to come in (3x Young Pyromancer, 2x Trade Routes, 1x Faithless Looting). I'm thinking of shaving off an Izzet Charm or swapping a Snapcaster Mage for the last Pyromancer. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated. Here's what I'm looking at right now:
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Young Pyromancer
Spells: 26
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
2 Spell Pierce
3 Deprive
3 Izzet Charm
4 Life from the Loam
2 Trade Routes
4 Seismic Assault
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Bow of Nylea
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Nature's Claim
1 Deprive
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Spellskite
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Dismember
It seems like this comes up from time to time so I'll just reiterate that Seismic Assault should be a 4-of in this deck. It is literally the most broken thing you can be doing and want to see it as soon as possible every game. Yes it is a card that you only want one of in play but it is a ridiculously strong card and will be removed as soon as the opponent is capable of doing so. Having a back up one to play gives you more outs in any given game. It is the reason this deck exists at all. Otherwise you are just moving towards an inferior Jund deck.
If you're not liking Young Pyromancer, try out Goblin Guide. It usually gets in for 4-6 damage and gives you info about your opponent's hand. The extra damage is usually pretty important when it comes to closing out games. So you only need two copies of Loam to resolve in order to win instead of 3+.
I tested with Realms Uncharted a long time ago. It's basically just a more expensive Life from the Loam. There aren't enough utility lands to really capitalize on it. So it's just 3cmc into 4 damage. Essentially having the same problem as Grisly Salvage and its ilk. It's nifty but in the end it really doesn't do anything productive.
Waste Not does seem solid, especially with the Loam+Raven's Crime. The main problem I see with a deck like that, is you are going to start leaning more on GB and less on R. I see Assault getting cut from a list like that over time (and probably rightfully so) which would disassociate it from this primer's topic. I've considered building a GB discard deck that utilizes Waste Not in a manner similar to 8-Rack since that seems more linear and effective. It'd just fall away from being an Assault Loam deck. I'd say test it out when you can and see how shoehorning it in works out, since there is some overlap in strategy but don't try to force R in it if it doesn't make sense.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
Spells: 24
3 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
3 Deprive
3 Izzet Charm
4 Life from the Loam
4 Seismic Assault
1 Jace Beleren
2 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Copperline Gorge
1 Raging Ravine
2 Cascade Bluffs
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Back to Nature
2 Spellskite
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Deprive
2 Anger of the Gods
I like Goblin Guide for more competitive metas because it's a low mana investment for 4-8 damage. I was having trouble closing out games against Tier 1 decks, even when I got Assault and Loam together. I could do between 12-16 damage over a turn or two which is substantial but won't win you games. Goblin Guide gets in the additional points of damage to make the deck capable of consistent turn 4 kills. So basically, I can go for a kill, instead of having to throw my lands at creatures and grind out games. Which opens up the opponent into drawing an out against me. He opens up the ability to play a solid tempo deck with Mid-Game reach. The draw back is actually not that terrible either. I get to see almost every card going in to my opponent's hand, which lets me prepare for potential things to play around as well as just general information. If he's doing his job, then the game should be closed out before the extra lands the opponent may draw can become relevant. Since in the early turns you are only playing one spell a turn typically. I was consistently impressed with him back when I originally put it in. I started with him as a 3-of originally just as a "it might be nice to see one in a game" and quickly became a "I want this in every opening hand." So I bumped him up to a 4-of. It's really solid.
My store has been transitioning to more players and more competitive decks (finally!). So I'm going to be switching back to MB Goblin Guides instead of the more grindy Young Pyromancer. I'll see how that goes this Wednesday. Unless I feel like running my Wildfire deck... Regardless, eventually I will give the deck a run with the changes and let you guys know how it goes.
Bow sounds interesting. I'll have to give it a try next week. There's a fair amount of Burn and Affinity showing up at my store, so some extra hate wouldn't be bad.