Look at the RG aggro list from the Primer. Tarmogoyf is the only really expensive card and that could easily be replaced by another aggressive beater (though it won't be the same). Flinthoof Boar comes to mind. The landbase has a bunch of fetches but you could substitute those with other lands. Pretty much anything that taps for G/R would be acceptable. Arid Mesa would be fine in there. The rest of the deck plus sideboard isn't all that expensive and would be a fine jumping off place for the deck.
I don't think losing Faithless Looting is worth the extra numbers on the three drops. I'd be interested to hear how Pyromancer works for you. I'd recommend getting another manland in the land base. I don't know if you'll find it happens for you but I was milling pretty aggressively with the deck and having some recurrable wincons adds some consistency. Also, I'd really recommend running the full set of Flame Jabs. It's not fantastic but it works as a back up wincon with Helix. I wasn't upset with it, despite it being kind of underpowered.
I ended up taking 3rd place out of ~16 people last night. I went 3-1; beating Bogle, RDevotionW, U-Tron and losing to UR Twin. The deck worked pretty well. The only awkward thing I noticed was, unless I drew well, Helix could be played but I wouldn't be able to activate it right away with any certainty. As in, I'd have targets for it in my graveyard, but I didn't have a second Retrace spell/Loam ready to get immediate value. That being said, I got it active in 3 games and it was insane. I only Slaver-Locked one person. Other than that hint of awkwardness, the deck performed pretty well. Raven's Crime was an all star. I want to get a 3rd Liliana in the MB but I think I may have to just stick it in the SB for now.
I'm still kind of irked about the UR Twin match. Game 1 I kept 5 lands, Flame Jab and Raven's Crime against a blind opponent whilst on the draw. So, I obliterated his hand and got him stuck on 2 and 3 mana for most of the game. He EoT plays Exarch on three mana, untaps, draws land and slams Twin. Which just seemed extremely lucky on his part. Game 2 I boarded out the Helix package and 2 Jabs, since I figured they'd be a bit slow and Loam+Assault should get the job done. I then proceeded to get an Assault countered (I had baited several counters before hand, he just happened to have all the answers) and mill out the other 3 while digging for Crimes/Raging Ravine. It was just an extremely awkward set of circumstances and I didn't see any pressure until it was way too late. I actually felt like the match up wasn't that bad. I just lost to my own deck misfiring.
The other matches flowed smoother. I probably misplayed a bit trying to get Helix to work. I pitched some removal spells and kept Helix in hand even though I couldn't get it rolling that turn when I played Faithless Looting a couple times. Though things worked out pretty well despite that.
Anyways, this is what I'm thinking of running going forward:
It was a lot of fun to play the deck. I kind of wish I could up the numbers on Abrupt Decay and Liliana in the MB but it starts to hurt the consistency of the rest of the deck. I don't think this is quite optimal yet but it's pretty solid. Bob was awesome all night. Inquisition had it's moments but was a little inconsistent. I don't want to cut it but I'd be open to suggestions. I really wish I could run 6 Raven's Crimes. That card is just insanely good.
Really? A 1 in 60 chance of that happening? I mean, yes, eventually, I will inevitably flip Worst Fears to Bob. Is that reason enough to not run a very powerful draw engine in a deck that could really use it? Is the potential to lock an opponent out of a game not worth the minimal inclusion? I'd just like to be say for the record that I don't know if this is going to be worth it and to be honest I'm really not the biggest fan of the Jund version of the deck to begin with. I just think there is some value here to be tried. I agree that Worst Fears isn't an optimal card on its own but being able to SlaverLock someone for 4 mana on the first activation and 1 every subsequent turn for very low risk with a card that, by itself, makes almost every other card in the deck go berserk. I just can't see the mild downsides outweighing the upside. Is Bob best for the deck? Probably not, but it might be. I said earlier that I just want to use him because I've been sitting on them for forever and it is a good card. If I don't like him, I'll give Pyromancer a run. If I don't like Pyromancer, then I'll give something else a go. It's still early in brewing with Helix. I just don't want to quit without trying it. That came out more defensive than it probably should have... I just want to test with the cards and I'm sure things will change. New lists are always rough. Like I said, I don't want to give up on an idea just because it has some potential to fail. I think there's enough upside to make it viable.
@ Ace1: I definitely just skipped over the "you may copy" part on Helix when I had read it. That changes things a bit and makes the card better than I thought it was.
I don't really have a problem running a 1-of spell I can't cast unless I 'combo'. Especially with the ability to manipulate card quality in the deck as well as make up for card disadvantage through the power of Loam. In my mind, it is fuel for what becomes a 1-card combo of resolving a Helix. The benefit to it is that you don't have to have specific cards. It's just letting the deck do what it does and sometimes you'll just lock someone out with a resolved artifact. I don't think I'd run more than 1 but for minimal space it has some significant potential upside.
I don't think I really need Shattering Spree. With how much removal the deck has MB, it shouldn't be a bad match. Especially when supplemented with Anger and Grudge. I don't like the idea of having removal that can target Helix imprinted because there is no option to casting the other half. So if I'm winning through Flame Jab retraces and have Pulse on Helix, eventually I'll have to target my own Helix with it. Ending the value train.
Really, I just need to play some real games with the deck but I won't be able to do so until next week. Once I do, I'll get my findings back to you guys. I foresee graveyard hate being a major issue but we'll see.
The sideboard was just thrown together from what I had laying around/from my RUG Loam deck. I agree Slaughter Games should be in there. I don't know if I have any though but I'm sure I can get a couple. Is there anything else that would be worth including? I can't think of any other good sorcery sideboard cards. Damnation?
Haha. I didn't even think about that. But as a random 1-of in the deck it shouldn't be a problem. The one game it does happen will be full of lulz and I don't think I could be upset with that. It's also aptly named for if that does happen. The upside to running Bob here is too good since the card quality is a bit low because of so many retrace spells. I decided against Worldfire because you can only imprint it with Flame Jab. Which is a bit too narrow and taking every turn for your opponent puts them in goldfish mode. Eventually you'll just burn them out with an Assault. It seems more consistent and can auto win for you on turn 4.
I did some goldfishing with the Spellweaver Helix deck. The advantage that card creates is insane. It doesn't matter what you pair with a Retrace spell, it just goes crazy. Though without playing against an opponent I'm not sure how useful Imprinting Maelstrom Pulse would be. I changed the list up a bit though. I wasn't crazy about Smallpox as the mana constraints are already a little tough and I'm running Bob because he's awesome and I never get to play with him. The list seems pretty solid and looks like this:
Anyways, figured I'd share what I had gotten to with the deck. It's pretty fun and seems consistent. The main plan of Assault Loam is still good and has the Bob/Liliana power with it. But it can just go nuts with a Spellweaver's Helix. Which is a really cool aspect to the card. I'm excited to play it next Wednesday.
I was thinking about doing something like that, but I wasn't sure how far to go with it. Absorb Vis is nice because cycling puts it in the graveyard without clogging up the hand too much. I don't know how effective it'd be for winning the game though. I'll give it a try though. I was thinking of going bigger with a spell like Violent Ultimatum or Worst Fears. Worldfire with Flame Jab straight wins the game with how Helix stacks the spells. I was also thinking something like Blightning might be fun.
EDIT: Or just go balls to the wall with off color spells since I'll never cast them realistically in a game. Time Stretch, Storm Herd, or All is Dust.
This is what I'm thinking of as an initial test. I was also considering a 1-of Blightning for value but I don't like that many 3 drops. No instants kind of sucks but Decay could easily be sided in for Twin match ups.
What do you guys think of running Spellweaver Helix in a Jund shell that goes a bit more deep on Dredge and Retrace. If you get Flame Jab or Raven's Crime imprinted with Life from the Loam, every time you'd Jab/Crime them, you'd get back 3 lands. With Assault, that's 4 damage and they take 1/discard a card for R/B. I don't think it'd be more than a 1-of or 2-of in the deck but if you get it online, you just go off semi-exponentially.
Outside of Tron match ups, I don't think I've ever had an opportunity to intentionally destroy my opponent's land base. I just like having an easy and readily available way to deal with Celestial Colonnades, Gavony Townships and Inkmoth/Blinkmoth Nexusessessees. Especially Township. Once that gets going, it's very difficult to keep up with it. Plus, most of the non-tier decks at my shop run assortments of other manlands and ability lands. It's just useful keeping those in check. Probably excessive for other metas but it has worked for me.
I found I didn't like Trade Routes again. The two mana investment to get it rolling was troublesome the three games I saw it. It got stuck in my hand more than anything. Games where I hit Loam, I was either already ahead or Trade Routes wasn't going to pull me into anything to save me. Though there was a game where I milled it and buffed my Goyf up to a 5/6 and basically won me the game. Though that seems like a bad reason to keep it. Young Pyromancer's best performance was making 2 elementals and getting in for 8 damage before I lost to Deathcloud. So I think I'm going to go back up to 25 lands. There were a ton of Gavony Townships and Inkmoth Nexus running around. Having the extra Ghost Quarter would be nice.
As far as Delver, I don't have a way to not hope to blindflip him. So even at 26 potential triggers, I don't like those odds. Though I was thinking about dropping the Trade Routes and Young Pyromancers for 4 Serum Visions to help try and up consistency. That wouldn't leave any room for Delver though and I still don't think that would really make playing him any more viable anyways.
If I remember correctly the Borborygmos Reanimator strategy was too susceptible to graveyard hate and the back up plan wasn't strong enough to finish games because you had too many dead draws without the graveyard. It had a good surprise factor but was easily hated out and wouldn't work against people who knew what was going on.
Yeah, my problem with Guide right now is that people at my store play a bunch of midrange creature decks. So Guide only really gets in for 2 damage. Young Pyromancer works better in that situation. I'm not looking at him as a wincon, but just another value engine. I'll give it a go with 24 lands and see how it works out. I want Trade Routes to give me a way to have Loam dredge itself in a way, and let me get a normal draw for the turn. So I'm not stuck completely on Loam after I get an Assault out.
I played around with land counts a long time ago. 23-27 lands and 25 always gave me the best consistency for making sure I hit the 3-4 land drops that I needed. I agree Pyromancer is better with Retrace and I tried out Oona's Grace but the converted mana cost on it was too restrictive. Flame Jab should probably be in there but I want to test with Trade Routes. Cutting it now defeats the purpose of testing it. Flame Jab is something I've been considering putting back in but it would have to be as a 2-of max and would probably go in the Trade Routes spot. I'll give 24 lands a go and see how that goes.
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I'm still kind of irked about the UR Twin match. Game 1 I kept 5 lands, Flame Jab and Raven's Crime against a blind opponent whilst on the draw. So, I obliterated his hand and got him stuck on 2 and 3 mana for most of the game. He EoT plays Exarch on three mana, untaps, draws land and slams Twin. Which just seemed extremely lucky on his part. Game 2 I boarded out the Helix package and 2 Jabs, since I figured they'd be a bit slow and Loam+Assault should get the job done. I then proceeded to get an Assault countered (I had baited several counters before hand, he just happened to have all the answers) and mill out the other 3 while digging for Crimes/Raging Ravine. It was just an extremely awkward set of circumstances and I didn't see any pressure until it was way too late. I actually felt like the match up wasn't that bad. I just lost to my own deck misfiring.
The other matches flowed smoother. I probably misplayed a bit trying to get Helix to work. I pitched some removal spells and kept Helix in hand even though I couldn't get it rolling that turn when I played Faithless Looting a couple times. Though things worked out pretty well despite that.
Anyways, this is what I'm thinking of running going forward:
4 Faithless Looting
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worst Fears
Permanents: 12
4 Dark Confidant
2 Spellweaver Helix
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Seismic Assault
Lands: 25
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Graven Cairns
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Anger of the Gods
It was a lot of fun to play the deck. I kind of wish I could up the numbers on Abrupt Decay and Liliana in the MB but it starts to hurt the consistency of the rest of the deck. I don't think this is quite optimal yet but it's pretty solid. Bob was awesome all night. Inquisition had it's moments but was a little inconsistent. I don't want to cut it but I'd be open to suggestions. I really wish I could run 6 Raven's Crimes. That card is just insanely good.
@ Ace1: I definitely just skipped over the "you may copy" part on Helix when I had read it. That changes things a bit and makes the card better than I thought it was.
I don't think I really need Shattering Spree. With how much removal the deck has MB, it shouldn't be a bad match. Especially when supplemented with Anger and Grudge. I don't like the idea of having removal that can target Helix imprinted because there is no option to casting the other half. So if I'm winning through Flame Jab retraces and have Pulse on Helix, eventually I'll have to target my own Helix with it. Ending the value train.
Really, I just need to play some real games with the deck but I won't be able to do so until next week. Once I do, I'll get my findings back to you guys. I foresee graveyard hate being a major issue but we'll see.
4 Faithless Looting
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worst Fears
Permanents: 12
4 Dark Confidant
2 Spellweaver Helix
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Seismic Assault
1 Raging Ravine
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Graven Cairns
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Crucible of Worlds
Anyways, figured I'd share what I had gotten to with the deck. It's pretty fun and seems consistent. The main plan of Assault Loam is still good and has the Bob/Liliana power with it. But it can just go nuts with a Spellweaver's Helix. Which is a really cool aspect to the card. I'm excited to play it next Wednesday.
EDIT: Or just go balls to the wall with off color spells since I'll never cast them realistically in a game. Time Stretch, Storm Herd, or All is Dust.
4 Faithless Looting
4 Raven's Crime
4 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
3 Smallpox
2 Dreadbore
2 Maelstrom Pulse
Permanents: 12
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Spellweaver Helix
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Seismic Assault
1 Raging Ravine
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Graven Cairns
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood Crypt
This is what I'm thinking of as an initial test. I was also considering a 1-of Blightning for value but I don't like that many 3 drops. No instants kind of sucks but Decay could easily be sided in for Twin match ups.
As far as Delver, I don't have a way to not hope to blindflip him. So even at 26 potential triggers, I don't like those odds. Though I was thinking about dropping the Trade Routes and Young Pyromancers for 4 Serum Visions to help try and up consistency. That wouldn't leave any room for Delver though and I still don't think that would really make playing him any more viable anyways.
If I remember correctly the Borborygmos Reanimator strategy was too susceptible to graveyard hate and the back up plan wasn't strong enough to finish games because you had too many dead draws without the graveyard. It had a good surprise factor but was easily hated out and wouldn't work against people who knew what was going on.