The only reason you'd really need Fire-lit Thicket is if you're running Scavenging Ooze so you can get multiple activations out of him. Otherwise, it's unneeded. I tried playing Jund Loam recently with 2 Cairns and I was constantly wanting to see them. 3-4 is where you want to be on that.
Played Jund Loam this evening with a fancy set of Bloodstained Mires. I went 2-2, beating BW lifegain home brew and 8Rack while losing to 8Rack and Zoo. Largely chalked up the losses to it having been awhile since playing with the deck. Having the Mires was immensely helpful. The list I played was:
I took out Helix and a Flame Jab in almost every match I played for Decay and Pulse. So I'm just going to make that switch. I also want to get the 4th Assault back in the deck but I haven't figured out how I'm going to go about doing that. Though I never really had a problem having it stick around when I needed it. The main board felt really strong though. It was just the sideboard and fighting through hate that really got me. Also, finding out that my friend has been borrowing 4 of my Obstinate Baloths was a little disheartening as I played against 8Rack twice and having the 2-3 in the board that I wanted would have been rather helpful. I'm not sold on Scooze in the deck just because of the red requirements. Finks may be better in that slot but I'm not terribly sure on that. Regardless, the SB needs a fair amount of help and was just thrown together with stuff I had lying around. Any suggestions would be more than welcome. Also, the mana base needs a third Graven Cairns to help cast Assault more reliably. I had a game against Zoo where I lost to not being able to cast Assault.
Anyways, I had a ton of fun running this again. Grindy Mid-Range shenanigans are always enjoyable for me.
I personally like having proactive options currently. The Jund Aggro Loam build is pretty solid right now. It functions a lot like the GBx decks in that it has a lot of versatility and powerful cards but has access to the Assault Loam engine for late game reach and grind. However, if the meta starts moving back towards being more combo centered, then a more interactive but reactive build like my RUG Loam list might prove to be better. Gifts decks have always felt too slow and too easily disrupted for my personal tastes. By necessity, they play very few copies of cards to get as much utility out of Gifts as possible and it feels very inconsistent without Gifts and slow with Gifts. Keeping the curve low and running Bob seems like a better source of advantage and consistency to me.
It's kind of weak that we didn't get a sticky despite having been in Established and that the deck is a known archetype. I'm sure there is some rules snafu on this site somewhere preventing it.
@powahcube - I can't imagine Karoo lands are useful in that list. Having lands in play is how you get value off of Mining and the Karoo lands keep fewer lands in play. I know you have the dudes to force lands into play but relying on them seems tenuous. Not to mention you get blown out by Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge as well as you can't keep hands with only Karoo lands in them. That just seems like a very poor choice for the deck.
@General Radchek - Running less than 4 Life from the Loam seems wrong. It turns up the value on several of the cards in your deck. Also, you have 12 cards that cost 3 or more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it opens you up to getting bottlenecked on the spells you can play in a turn. Which means you become soft to counter magic. Just as a general deck building theme in Modern I try not to play more than 8 high mana spells so you're less easily disrupted by blue decks that will look to counter a spell each turn.
It definitely looks solid. A lot like the traditional Jund lists, like you said. No Raging Ravine or Treetop Village in the mana base seems odd. Is there any particular reason for Pack Rat over Bob? He might help with your consistency issues and plays well with Liliana and discard. What do you board Olivia in for? Scavenging Ooze and Courser seem nice for some incidental lifegain and value. Has Eternal Witness been working for you? It has been fairly awkward the times I've tried it, though it has been a long time since I gave her a shot.
For modern in general, I prefer Ghost Quarter over Tec Edge. Just because of the versatility it has over Tec Edge (e.g. killing tron lands before they have 4 lands in play, killing man-lands for no additional mana cost, and things like that). As far as numbers, it depends on the build of the deck and how prevalent Tron is in your meta. Typically you want one or two MB. Though I like 3 in my RUG build but 2 is probably an acceptable number. Tec Edge is probably more useful of you are running into more things like Jund and UWR control(ish) decks. Killing man-lands and not giving the opponent land advantage is usually pretty good in the grindier games. I'm still partial to GQ though. Even in those circumstances.
Went 2-2 at my modern tournament last night. I beat UR Kiln Fiend and Mono Black Devotion; and lost to Bogle and UW Planeswalker control. It was a very brew heavy night. Anyways, I wasn't particularly happy with the 3-of Helix and how deep I had pushed it. I think scaling it back to 2 Helix and cutting the Flame Jabs back along with Worst Fears and just using it as a late game value engine is probably stronger. The way the deck was setup wasn't terrible but it was rather durdly and not as interactive as I would have liked.
I think I'm going to give the deck a break for awhile though. There's a GP coming up in February in Vancouver that I want to attend and do well at with a brew of mine. The one that I feel strongest about is my 4 color CounterCat deck, so I'm going to be trying to play with that almost exclusively. I'll still try to playtest with Loam when I can but with the meta shifting to Burn, Bogle, Merfolk and very aggressive decks like that, I don't think Loam will be effective enough to compete.
I still really like Helix and it generates a ton of value but it really only gets value in the late game unless your hand plays out perfectly (Looting into value). But even then, the earliest you can make use of it is turn 4. In the grindy long games, it's really nice but with how aggressive things are getting, it's not that helpful. Most games, it was a struggle to get the right cards in the yard to get immediate value out of it. So I could have cast it but it wouldn't have done anything most of the time or cut off my ability to Retrace spells. I think having it as a back up value engine is where it'd be best. Generally, getting some combination of Loam, Crime and Looting were the best value. The Flame Jabs were nice for consistency but cutting back on the Helix makes them unnecessary. I opted for Pyromancers for a bit more pressure. That may be wrong but it seems decent enough for going into more testing.
I'm not trying to focus on Helix. I'm just sharing lines of play that I've discovered so everyone who wants to play with it knows. It's useful but Seismic Assault is still a much strong card and the Assault+Loam combo is still my main goal while playing the deck. It just depends on how your hand plays out that determines which line you need to go with. I'm not sure if 3 Helix is right for the deck but I figure if I see it more, then I can gauge its usefulness more.
I thought that was what I had said... two Helix with the same spells on them. Oh well. Haha. I think Assault is still an important part of the deck's functionality. Helix is additional value and mana advantage but Assault is still a huge win con/stabilizer.
To my understanding that would work. The casting of a copy triggers the other. So if you manage to get two Helix with Jab/(the same sorcery) you go infinite and deal infinite damage. Not as elegant as Twin decks but a possibility to keep in mind.
Yeah, Loam+anything on a Helix is just gravy. Also, I was thinking about it and Helix with Flame Jab lets you play through Blood Moon fairly well. Especially if you can get Loam into the yard with it. Faithless Looting works though Blood Moon too, so you can still get stuff from your hand into your graveyard. I'm actually really liking the direction Helix is taking... I'm excited to play it again this week.
I feel like running less than 4 Flame Jab would hurt the deck more than help it. I was actively wanting to mill multiples of anything into the graveyard. What it wasn't didn't really matter, just that I could Retrace it/Dredge it. When it looked more like "R: Ping something + value," I was much more happy to see it.
I believe bGnomes originally tried posting his Junk deck here because it fell along the same lines (or someone did at some point; it's been awhile). It is a solid strategy but if I remember right, it pulled the deck in too many directions. It's been recommended as SB tech for a Merfolk heavy meta and I don't think it's bad. If it suits your fancy, go for it. I think the synergy isn't quite there for an Assault Loam list. Despite it having some amount of overlap of strategy. I do like the Haakon deck though. It has a lot going for it.
EDIT: I think I may go to running 3 Assault and 3 Helix instead of 4/2 split. Just to try and up the consistency on that angle.
It was both Torpf. As far as which one was more common, that would have to go to burning the opponent out with them. It's not nearly as efficient as Seismic Assault but 5 mana for 3 damage every turn gets there on a stalled board. The main thing that I like about it is that it allows the deck to mill more aggressively and still have an out if Assault doesn't get online.
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4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells: 27
4 Faithless Looting
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
2 Flame Jab
4 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Seismic Assault
1 Spellweaver Helix
Lands: 25
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Graven Cairns
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Spellskite
3 Scavenging Ooze
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Slaughter Games
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt Decay
I took out Helix and a Flame Jab in almost every match I played for Decay and Pulse. So I'm just going to make that switch. I also want to get the 4th Assault back in the deck but I haven't figured out how I'm going to go about doing that. Though I never really had a problem having it stick around when I needed it. The main board felt really strong though. It was just the sideboard and fighting through hate that really got me. Also, finding out that my friend has been borrowing 4 of my Obstinate Baloths was a little disheartening as I played against 8Rack twice and having the 2-3 in the board that I wanted would have been rather helpful. I'm not sold on Scooze in the deck just because of the red requirements. Finks may be better in that slot but I'm not terribly sure on that. Regardless, the SB needs a fair amount of help and was just thrown together with stuff I had lying around. Any suggestions would be more than welcome. Also, the mana base needs a third Graven Cairns to help cast Assault more reliably. I had a game against Zoo where I lost to not being able to cast Assault.
Anyways, I had a ton of fun running this again. Grindy Mid-Range shenanigans are always enjoyable for me.
@General Radchek - Running less than 4 Life from the Loam seems wrong. It turns up the value on several of the cards in your deck. Also, you have 12 cards that cost 3 or more, which isn't necessarily a bad thing but it opens you up to getting bottlenecked on the spells you can play in a turn. Which means you become soft to counter magic. Just as a general deck building theme in Modern I try not to play more than 8 high mana spells so you're less easily disrupted by blue decks that will look to counter a spell each turn.
I think I'm going to give the deck a break for awhile though. There's a GP coming up in February in Vancouver that I want to attend and do well at with a brew of mine. The one that I feel strongest about is my 4 color CounterCat deck, so I'm going to be trying to play with that almost exclusively. I'll still try to playtest with Loam when I can but with the meta shifting to Burn, Bogle, Merfolk and very aggressive decks like that, I don't think Loam will be effective enough to compete.
Here's what I'm changing my decklist to:
4 Faithless Looting
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Raven's Crime
4 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Permanents: 16
4 Young Pyromancer
4 Dark Confidant
1 Spellweaver Helix
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Seismic Assault
Lands: 25
1 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Blackcleave Cliffs
3 Graven Cairns
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
1 Spellweaver Helix
2 Slaughter Games
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Back to Nature
2 Spellskite
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Anger of the Gods
I still really like Helix and it generates a ton of value but it really only gets value in the late game unless your hand plays out perfectly (Looting into value). But even then, the earliest you can make use of it is turn 4. In the grindy long games, it's really nice but with how aggressive things are getting, it's not that helpful. Most games, it was a struggle to get the right cards in the yard to get immediate value out of it. So I could have cast it but it wouldn't have done anything most of the time or cut off my ability to Retrace spells. I think having it as a back up value engine is where it'd be best. Generally, getting some combination of Loam, Crime and Looting were the best value. The Flame Jabs were nice for consistency but cutting back on the Helix makes them unnecessary. I opted for Pyromancers for a bit more pressure. That may be wrong but it seems decent enough for going into more testing.
I believe bGnomes originally tried posting his Junk deck here because it fell along the same lines (or someone did at some point; it's been awhile). It is a solid strategy but if I remember right, it pulled the deck in too many directions. It's been recommended as SB tech for a Merfolk heavy meta and I don't think it's bad. If it suits your fancy, go for it. I think the synergy isn't quite there for an Assault Loam list. Despite it having some amount of overlap of strategy. I do like the Haakon deck though. It has a lot going for it.
EDIT: I think I may go to running 3 Assault and 3 Helix instead of 4/2 split. Just to try and up the consistency on that angle.