@Fiddlyr:
Can you post a link please? Was there any kind of comment or helpful advice with the deck?
This looks somewhat similar to what I have been playing, but with a lot more 4-ofs and Goyfs, of course. Manabase is a bit intriguing for me as well.
Far from optimal - this list was quickly elaborated 10 minutes before FNM fired. The sideboard was bad, and maindeck makes me cringe now. Anyway, report:
FNM @ Monstore - Montclair, CA
33 players
Round 1 - versus Grixis Twin
2-0
Played a friend, he did well.
Game 1 was very intense. He manages to beat me a lot with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and I keep playing safe around the combo. Finally manage to stabilize the board with my own Tasigur, a Countryside Crusher and a Molten Vortex that killed a fair share of Pestermites and Vendilion Cliques. Even though he manages to gain decent card advantage with Kolaghan's Command and Tasigur, I manage to stabilize at 3 life and clear the path for Tasigur-Crusher beats. He concedes.
Game 2 I side in the discard package and Nature's Claim to hedge against Leyline of the Void. I manage to open very aggressively with Raven's Crime and proceed to both represent Abrupt Decay and Molten Vortex activations to kill Deceiver Exarch, while progressing my board and keeping him low on resources. He had little resources on the opener, which gave me a lot of time, so after a lot of draw-go I finish the game with Vortex.
Round 2 - versus UR Storm
1-2
Storm is always tough, but from all non-interactive-linear-combo decks I can face, at least I find Storm combo quite amusing to watch. I mean, a skilled pilot makes it entertaining to watch because of all the math involved. So, not even mad.
Game 1 I keep a bad opener because I didn't realize it was Storm. So he kills me on the spot, just like that - Gifts Ungiven for HUGE value, thanks to my Ghost Quarter... Feels bad.
Game 2 I side in the discard spells and a miser Guttural Response just because. I drop an early Tasigur, the Golden Fang, as well as a Molten Vortex, drawing Life from the Loam on the following turn. Pressure is too much, and he goes off to Grapeshot Tasigur down, and passes turn. I get to draw exactly the land I needed for lethal Vortex activations (had Loam on hand already).
Game 3 I manage to get an early advantage by Raven's Crimeing him down to 2 cards, and then Inquisition of Kozilek his last ritual, but fail to get a decent follow-up. He topdecks enough lands, Gifts Ungiven again and immediately goes off. I let him do it just for the sake of the show - he gets to storm count 19 and a lot of mana, casts Empty the Warrens for 38 tokens, then another one for 40 tokens, then a third one for 42 tokens - and 43 Grapeshots targeted at my measly 10 life. It was fun, though.
Round 3 - versus Grixis Twin
0-2
Played the friend who lend me the cards. I scrubbed.
Game 2 I side in the Inquisition of Kozilek and Guttural Responses, since I know for a fact that this guy plays no graveyard hate. I get to Raven's Crime a bunch of times, but have no good follow-up. Put him down to 4 life with Molten Vortex, but it's not quite enough, since I pseudo stabilize at 2 life and he topdecks Kolaghan's Command for the win.
Round 4 - versus Griselbrand Reanimator
0-2
I.
Hate.
This.
Deck.
Game 1 he starts really slow. I get to play my first turn 3 against the deck EVER (new record), keep Lightning Bolt plus a couple of Molten Vortex activations ready to kill either him or Griselbrand depending on the situation (really, my only out), but he gains a *****ton of life, and draws a bunch of cards, and goes on with his bull*****. Yes. Salty. I know.
Game 2 I have no side against this crap. Same thing, except that I have ZERO interaction because I mull to 4 and he just goes for Through the Breach - Worldspine Wurm and it's game. Actually, I'm done.
Final Results: 1-3-drop ; 23rd out or 33
Verdict: Tilted
Sometimes this just happens to me, I tilt. Badly. I mean, I'm hating myself right now, and my deck, and this archetype, and Modern, and Magic. I'll try to step away from the game for a few days, it should pass. Not the first time.
[...]
I think the creatureless version needs liliana. I wasn't impressed with jab or vortex at all. Jab is great if you're running pyromancer, vortex might have been fine, I just wasn't very impressed with the Amana commitment but I will say landing 1 early against grixis delver with loam going probably would have saved me. I will update my list with liliana in place of jab. We'll see if I change anything else. I may board surgical as using that against tron and uwr would have been very good.
I will also note that I definitely should have taken heed to the warnings that angler and tasigur are definitely new issues we've never had to really face before.
Fame Jab used to be great on last year's Delver meta - but today's tempo decks play these huge creatures that render the Jab pretty weak. It's a shame, though, since I'm a huge fan of the card. Used to run it alongside Young Pyromancer for extra value, but even that has been underwhelming. Liliana of the Veil, on the other hand, I haven't tested as much because I don't have access to them, but they're probably very solid against the current Grixis tempo builds.
not enough courser talk in this thread. courser 4 of seems like a base to me. helps against burn which is an awful matchup gives tons of card advantage and cant be bolted.
Last time I tested Courser of Kruphix in RG I found it kinda meh. I mean, it's a sweet card and all, and can provide actual card advantage, but at most times it was close to irrelevant. Of course, Burn matchup was greatly improved, but considering everything else, I'd rather run additional looting effects, or a more solid beater in Hooting Mandrills. One of the main reasons being that the deck doesn't actually play a lot of lands, so the life gain effect+midrangey value gets a bit diminished. It helps me dig for what I want, but I'm unsure if it's worth the slot.
Not even close to being "4 as a base", but I could totally see efficient lists running a couple of them. But still, not convinced.
I was pretty intrigued and didn't see it mentioned here. Anyone tried anything like this?
If you had read the latest posts on the thread, you'd see that the author is actually posting his opinions here as well. Personally I'm not a fan of the idea, but it definitely could work.
Its a good argument for running as many Forest fetchlands as is plausible at least.
@Blitkun I love Countryside Crusher and agree there is a lot of upside in casting him. As my decks have evolved though, he's gone from a 3-4 of to a 0-2 of though depending on the specific build.
I agree on 0-2 Crushers because often times you topdeck it and it does nothing. It's a very powerful card, but requires some setup or time to grow and dominate the board. I like to think of it much like Knight of the Reliquary - sometimes they're just not worth the tempo and mana.
Welp, my girlfriend should be off jund this week which means for the first time in a long time I get to bring aggro loam out of the dusty card box and into an LGS tomorrow night. I am very excited for this. I will definitely post a brief report.
Looking forward to it, I remember last year you helped me a lot with my first tests by providing very helpful feedback. You going Zoo-esque?
[...]
I like your idea about the additional green fetch and the Graven Cairns - probably cutting a Tomb and Stomping Ground for the Cairns, and a Mire for the Foothills. The deck is primarily RB, but basic forest is indeed very important against Blood Moon.
Completely agree - I have lost more than a few games to Blood Moon, due to only playing 1 basic Forest. Always try to increase the number, but manabase starts to get clunky (even at RG) because of Seismic Assault mana requirements (and even for Molten Vortex, activation mana requirements). Blood Moon has been strangely efficient against my deck because puts me on topdeck mode for Faithless Looting, Magmatic Insight or lands, shutting down the recursive portion of the deck. It's a big blowout. Might try doing it again, maybe 2 Forests, or 3. Add a second Fire-Lit Thicket for good measure.
Btw. Am i the only one who is excited about the new set? battle for Zendikar. I mean. it's a set that's "based" around lands
What do you guys hope to see in the set?
I'm hopeful for more utility lands on line with Bojuka Bog, but on RG, could be great.
Also, anything with Landfall is a winner for me. Really like the mechanic, and even if I can't get to fit in the Assault Loam deck, will end up brewing something.
EDIT: Also, there's always the possibility that a card similar to Life from the Loam is printed, which could add great consistency for the deck.
It is very awkward when you have a Crusher in play, with no Loam and the first non-Land card revealed is Magmatic Insight, because if the Crusher has been in play for any length of time, it is very unlikely you have a land in hand.
I rationalized it by the Crusher making it much more likely to get to a Loam, but it can be an issue and I eventually did cut down the number of Insights while I was playing Crusher. My new plan has cut out the Crushers though and Insights might come back again.
Yeah, Crusher does that. However, there's much more upside than downside to it.
What I have been doing is being more conservative when casting Crusher. Sometimes I make sure I have already a Life from the Loam before slamming him, or at least one or two Faithless Looting on the graveyard to get some advantage from. It doesn't make these situations less awkward, just helps playing around them.
Really curious as to how this list of yours would perform - though from my experience I have found Commune with the Gods a bit slow and clunky, buy indeed helps with the sideboard plan and sure helps dig for Life from the Loam. I'm all for testing, though. Do you have any prospects for testing in the near future?
This manabase is a bit greedy on the basics, but can easily support Raven's Crime. If you keep the Green splash to a minimum, I'd even take the Raging Ravine away and try to fit some black disruption.
I don't think Smallpox is this easy to insert on the shell, but you could try something like Raphael Levy's Smallpox and go for an interesting overlap.
I don't know what your Meta looks like, but a T2 Gurmag Angler requires at least 1 Vortex or Loam and 3 Lands.
That's tough on T2, even more if you are on the play.
That's why Dismember is here for.
If i got no Vortex or loam or maybe no 3 lands to discard i have to deal with the Bid Guys in other ways.
Or a Lightning Bolt + 1 land.
And anyway, you'll be taking 4 from Dismember. It's rough.
As @mykatdied said, even Roast might be a better option if your meta is heavy on delve aggro. Roast currently looks pretty strong, since it deals with a huge number of things that a large variety of decks play. If my meta shifted to a heavier delve beats theme, I'd surely put a couple on my SB and probably one maindeck.
You could also play some other early game aggro speed bumps, such as Kitchen Finks, Elvish Visionary or a couple of walls. I think it's worse than Roast, but it all depends on what your deck is trying to do and what kind of meta you face there.
Is there a reason to not run dismember in strict RG Builds?
I don't see why it'd be that great, actually. I mean, it is a good card, but running good cards just for the sake of them being good isn't very appealing. Either way, Indestructible or Protection from Red isn't as played nowadays, so I really don't see why Dismember would be that good of an idea.
Sure, it trades "1:1" with creatures with toughness 5 or less, if you ignore the life loss. But you can always just throw more lands at them anyway. Really isn't that big of a deal if Deceiver Exarch, Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Tarmogoyf take multiple lands to kill - if the deck assembles the engine consistently enough, you'll be in a good spot.
However, on Jund Dismember looks really good, would totally play it as a 1 or 2-of.
[...]
I'm still brawling with my doubts and still hesitate to look at this deck being competitive maybe
at Level Tier 2. I also can't believe that there is no shell where RG works out.
IMHO the trick for RG to work is looking back at the old days. Cascade/Swans of Bryn Argoll/Seismic Assault, standard Countryside Crusher decks and generic RG stompy things. Then, apply what you learn with newer cards and keep trying.
Go too far on combo, and you get clunky.
Go too far on midrange, and you'll benefit of a splash (considering ALL possibilities - WUB).
Keep testing, and look for a removal/interaction suite that fits with your playstyle and metagame. Discover whether you need to be more aggressive or conservative, depending on each matchup. Learn to trust in your deck, and figure out the odds of drawing good cards befogre Dredging.
I don't think this is a high-Tier competitive deck as in "stock lists that are consistently effective against most of the format" - but for sure it can be tailored to suit certain metagames and styles. The way I see it, it's a promising archetype with a lot of possibilities: you just need to figure out what you actually want/need.
I'm jealous of the amount of Wasteland effects you get to play with only two colors. Do you ever go for the straight recurring Ghost Quarter LD plan against greedy mana bases during games?
I wonder how much mileage we get out of being able to commit land slots like you can to LD land.
Thanks! ^^
I'd say the Ghost Quarter-Life from the Loam plan is always there. Helps a lot against RG Tron, greedy Grixis and Jund. Strangely effective against Burn as well.
The best part is that sometimes I get to perform this while controlling the board or going for the win.
Friday Night Magic - Monstore @ Montclair, CA
34 players - 6 rounds
This is a very cool store that I usually play on Fridays whenever I get a ride. The field is usually very diverse - including some number of brews - but a lot of meta decks are played as well. It balances fun and competition quite well, IMO.
Disclaimer: I'm basing this report on my notes, as well as on my crappy memory - some details might have been lost/mixed up/slightly exaggerated.
Round 1 - versus Grixis Delver
2-1
My opponent seemed to be experimenting with the deck, and had some interesting card choices.
Game 1 starts a bit slowly for him, since I had Lightning Bolt to get rid of an early Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer. Shortly after, I set my hand tapping out for Life from the Loam retrieving 3 lands and Molten Vortex on the board. He proceeds to untap and cast Toil // Trouble dealing 7 damage to me. Quite a scare, but I managed to stabilize the board state and proceed to kill him quickly two turns later.
Game 3 I keep a greedy hand (Molten Vortex, Magmatic Insight, Lightning Bolts, a Guttural Response but only one land) and get immediately rewarded with turn 2 topdeck land for Magmatic Insighting into a fetch and a Life from the Loam. Take a lot of damage from my lands, by keep the opponent from developing the board and proceed to kill him on turn 6-ish. 1-0, off to a good start.
Round 2 - versus Abzan Midrange (budget)
2-1
This guy was playing a really cool Abzan list with Scrylands and some other offbeat cards such as Tidehollow Sculler. Seemed sub optimal (of course), but it didn't perform poorly AT ALL. The games were very interesting and engaging - I praise creative budget solutions for broad spectrum strategies.
Game 3 I keep a solid hand with everything I ever wanted, including one Nature's Claim, Faithless Looting turn 1 draws me a second Life from the Loam, and use it to bait a Rest in Peace that never came. Opponent proceeds to pressure the board while I answer it, even getting to cast a Feed the Clan in response to Tasigur, the Golden Fang succumbing to my repeated shocks and bumping up to an incredible 28 life total. Shortly after, though, I set a Countryside Crusher with a Wooded Foothills + Molten Vortex activation to profitably block a Loxodon Smiter. From 28 he goes to 18 in a turn (Vortex), and I get to untap with a 11/11 Crusher. He concedes. 2-0, feeling great!
Round 3 - versus Grixis Twin
0-2
Played one of my friends - ironically, we agree that the match is slightly favorable to me, but I got rekt.
Game 1 is blur. I kept trying to assemble the engine while playing around disruption and his combo. He wins on the fair plan, and overwhelms me with card advantage and tempo. I think I severely misplayed in a couple parts, but I was too scared of the combo. Should've gone full YOLO on him and accept that if he had the combo he'd get the easy win, but instead took way too much damage from his creatures.
Game 2 I side in the 3 Guttural Response against disruption and 2 Nature's Claim for good measure. I open with turn 1 Molten Vortex, and keep lands in hand just waiting for looting effects and Life from the Loam to improve my position. Sadly, I don't get to draw it. Game was very grindy, turn after turn trying to stop him from attacking. Killed Tasigur twice, but the third was too much. 2-1, at least lost to my buddy - and his deck is solid, so my tiebreakers should be good.
Round 3 - versus Affinity (with multiple Galvanic Blasts)
1-2
After this match, talked a lot with this opponent about different ways to build affinity. He opted for a slightly more colored build running additional Galvanic Blasts and Master of Etherium, which seemed to work for him. Would've sided differently if I knew.
Game 1 I keep a solid (but not surprisingly fast) hand, and he gets a blistering fast draw with double Cranial Plating. I manage to get some time with Lightning Bolt, but by the time I draw a Molten Vortex I'm already dead on the water.
Game 2 I side in the 2 Anciend Grudges, 3 Nature's Claim and 2 Anger of the Gods, siding out some of the slower cards. Mulligan to 6 for a solid keep (with Molten Vortex and Magmatic Insight), and proceed to turn 2 make him sacrifice his Glimmervoid at the end of my turn. Drew all 3 Nature's Claim on this game, and Vortex did a hell of a job keeping his board clear. After that, managed to burn him out while still killing his creatures through 3 or 4 turns.
Game 3 I keep a very greedy hand, another 1-lander with Magmatic Insight. Again, manage to topdeck a land for turn 1, cast Insight and draw 2 more lands. Feels like Christmas after I topdeck Molten Vortex on turn 2. However, though I really win the early game, he suddenly drops a Blood Moon. Game becomes an awkward draw-go fest (we laughed a lot at this) while I desperately hope to draw more lands for the Vortex, my singleton Forest or some looting effects. Instead, I draw multiple Life from the Loam, redundant copies of Seismic Assault/Molten Vortex and uncastable spells like Hooting Mandrills or Nature's Claim. He beats me a little bit with topdecked Memnites and whatnot, and gets to draw 3 of his Galvanic Blasts to close the match. 2-2.
Round 5 - versus Jund
0-2
I like to think that Molten Vortex greatly improved this matchup because now we can play more of this effect than his deck plays Abrupt Decays. But certainly isn't enough.
Both Game 1 and 2 were very similar. He overwhelmed me with efficient removal, I failed to draw Life from the Loam until very late in the game and he managed to succeed. Very sad 2-3.
Round 6 - versus Bant Brew: return of the glorious draw-go!
2-0
This guy was having a blast earlier on the night - I saw him Sphinx's Revelation for 6 with a Sphinx's Tutelage on the battlefield. Against Burn. He was a really nice guy, playing this crazy brew with singleton maindeck techs and whacky interactions.
Game 1 as soon as I see an Island, I play with great caution. Slip in a Hooting Mandrills, keep hitting him for 4 and he gets mana flooded. Seismic Assault gets Voidslimed (!!!), but Mandrills get there. Just to make sure, I cast Molten Vortex and keep lands in hand for lethal. He scoops.
Final Results: 3-3 ; 14th out of 34
Verdict: Mediocre
I honestly think there's some potential there. I don't think I played sloppy, but definitely could have performed better. At least I had some fun heh
The friend I played at Round 3 went 5-1, losing on the finals and locking 2nd place. Really happy for him
Crusher has been hit or miss for me as well but I think it's a necessary evil in the deck. It reloads the GY after an early tasigur/angler and keeps you drawing gas if you're looking for loam/removal. Most of the time my opponents kill it immediately or they lose to it. If I had tarmogoyf i'd test it in crusher's spot but I'm not dropping that kind of money.
Yeah, Tarmogoyfs are way too much, don't play them either.
I was maindecking raven's crime until recently. I switched them out for the two Kolaghan's Command. I just feel like the value of the card fluctuates between matchups too much to make it maindeckable in my build plus I wanted a way to get back milled creatures. It's terrible against aggro decks and griselshoal but great against twin and grixis control so I put it in the SB. I've been very happy with the switch to Kommand. I've never really thought about young pyromancer but it seems better in a deck that plays seismic assualt since you can use your mana on other things but molten vortex locks up my mana once I get it going. I think the delve creatures and crusher are better alternate win cons.
Good reasoning on Raven's Crime, thanks for the input.
About Molten Vortex locking up your mana - how conservative/aggressive do you play with it?
I imagine that given the overlapping removal in Abrupt Decay, Terminate and Maelstrom Pulse you probably have a surplus of lands in hand (not considering ultra-pressure matchups, like Infect), opposed to my RG list that tends to operate without cards in hand from turn 5 onward... I know this may sound repetitive, but how helpful has your list been on awkward draws?
One of the key problems with my approach is that sometimes the deck performs REALLY badly if I fail to find one of the engine cards. While the overall consistence has greatly improved (+4 looting effects in Magmatic Insight, extra Seismic Assaults in Molten Vortexes...), there are still some games in which I seem to dig through a considerable portion of my library, and still fail to find one of the key pieces. Do you consider that the addition of the removal suite improves these draws, lessening negative variance?
Though it may sound like a stupid question, I have not tested your list specifically, and have great interest in understanding the reasoning behind some of your card choices - since it shines some light on future possibilities with what I could try with the archetype.
Hooting Mandrills IMO is just a worse version of tasigur/angler especially since I have kessig wolf run to push damage through. A turn 2 mandrills doesn't matchup well against a turn 2 tasigur vs. grixis or a tarmogoyf vs. jund. If I was playing straight r/g I'd play it though.
This decklist can't really support smallpox. I rarely want BB until turn 4-5 and the deck is super mana hungry with molten vortex instead of seismic assault. If I were to play a smallpox deck I'd play Raphael Levy's Loam Pox deck (which I did for a little while a few months ago).
Very interesting list - reminds me of some tests I did last year, adding Assault-Loam-Retrace package in a traditional Jund shell. This idea surely seems a lot better now, with Tasigur, Vortex and whatnot. Good report on your part - congratulations for the performance!
Have you considered trimming the Countryside Crushers? I play a straight RG list and have been testing 2 or 3 at a time, and even though they steal games sometimes, in certain contexts they are far too underwhelming. The removal package looks amazing there, and surely adds a ton of consistency to the deck.
About some card choices, what are your thoughts on maindecking Raven's Crime and a couple of Young Pyromancers for value? And what of Smallpox? Hooting Mandrills?
Your manabase looks solid - back when I was testing (again, with Assault) I had a ton of trouble with it, but seems that you managed to find a good point for the red mana generation.
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Can you post a link please? Was there any kind of comment or helpful advice with the deck?
This looks somewhat similar to what I have been playing, but with a lot more 4-ofs and Goyfs, of course. Manabase is a bit intriguing for me as well.
Weird that he isn't running any copies of Faithless Looting, I tend to rate it higher than Tormenting Voice.
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Stomping Ground
2 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Raging Ravine
1 Swamp
3 Mountain
1 Forest
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Countryside Crusher
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
//Spells
2 Raven's Crime
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magmatic Insight
4 Life from the Loam
3 Abrupt Decay
//Enchantments
4 Molten Vortex
1 Zombie Infestation
2 Seismic Assault
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Nature's Claim
3 Guttural Response
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Feed the Clan
2 Anger of the Gods
Far from optimal - this list was quickly elaborated 10 minutes before FNM fired. The sideboard was bad, and maindeck makes me cringe now. Anyway, report:
FNM @ Monstore - Montclair, CA
33 players
Round 1 - versus Grixis Twin
2-0
Played a friend, he did well.
Game 1 was very intense. He manages to beat me a lot with Tasigur, the Golden Fang and I keep playing safe around the combo. Finally manage to stabilize the board with my own Tasigur, a Countryside Crusher and a Molten Vortex that killed a fair share of Pestermites and Vendilion Cliques. Even though he manages to gain decent card advantage with Kolaghan's Command and Tasigur, I manage to stabilize at 3 life and clear the path for Tasigur-Crusher beats. He concedes.
Game 2 I side in the discard package and Nature's Claim to hedge against Leyline of the Void. I manage to open very aggressively with Raven's Crime and proceed to both represent Abrupt Decay and Molten Vortex activations to kill Deceiver Exarch, while progressing my board and keeping him low on resources. He had little resources on the opener, which gave me a lot of time, so after a lot of draw-go I finish the game with Vortex.
Round 2 - versus UR Storm
1-2
Storm is always tough, but from all non-interactive-linear-combo decks I can face, at least I find Storm combo quite amusing to watch. I mean, a skilled pilot makes it entertaining to watch because of all the math involved. So, not even mad.
Game 1 I keep a bad opener because I didn't realize it was Storm. So he kills me on the spot, just like that - Gifts Ungiven for HUGE value, thanks to my Ghost Quarter... Feels bad.
Game 2 I side in the discard spells and a miser Guttural Response just because. I drop an early Tasigur, the Golden Fang, as well as a Molten Vortex, drawing Life from the Loam on the following turn. Pressure is too much, and he goes off to Grapeshot Tasigur down, and passes turn. I get to draw exactly the land I needed for lethal Vortex activations (had Loam on hand already).
Game 3 I manage to get an early advantage by Raven's Crimeing him down to 2 cards, and then Inquisition of Kozilek his last ritual, but fail to get a decent follow-up. He topdecks enough lands, Gifts Ungiven again and immediately goes off. I let him do it just for the sake of the show - he gets to storm count 19 and a lot of mana, casts Empty the Warrens for 38 tokens, then another one for 40 tokens, then a third one for 42 tokens - and 43 Grapeshots targeted at my measly 10 life. It was fun, though.
Round 3 - versus Grixis Twin
0-2
Played the friend who lend me the cards. I scrubbed.
Game 1 I keep Molten Vortex and looting effects to dig for lands and Life from the Loam. Gets me nowhere, combo kill.
Game 2 I side in the Inquisition of Kozilek and Guttural Responses, since I know for a fact that this guy plays no graveyard hate. I get to Raven's Crime a bunch of times, but have no good follow-up. Put him down to 4 life with Molten Vortex, but it's not quite enough, since I pseudo stabilize at 2 life and he topdecks Kolaghan's Command for the win.
Round 4 - versus Griselbrand Reanimator
0-2
I.
Hate.
This.
Deck.
Game 1 he starts really slow. I get to play my first turn 3 against the deck EVER (new record), keep Lightning Bolt plus a couple of Molten Vortex activations ready to kill either him or Griselbrand depending on the situation (really, my only out), but he gains a *****ton of life, and draws a bunch of cards, and goes on with his bull*****. Yes. Salty. I know.
Game 2 I have no side against this crap. Same thing, except that I have ZERO interaction because I mull to 4 and he just goes for Through the Breach - Worldspine Wurm and it's game. Actually, I'm done.
Final Results: 1-3-drop ; 23rd out or 33
Verdict: Tilted
Sometimes this just happens to me, I tilt. Badly. I mean, I'm hating myself right now, and my deck, and this archetype, and Modern, and Magic. I'll try to step away from the game for a few days, it should pass. Not the first time.
Fame Jab used to be great on last year's Delver meta - but today's tempo decks play these huge creatures that render the Jab pretty weak. It's a shame, though, since I'm a huge fan of the card. Used to run it alongside Young Pyromancer for extra value, but even that has been underwhelming. Liliana of the Veil, on the other hand, I haven't tested as much because I don't have access to them, but they're probably very solid against the current Grixis tempo builds.
Last time I tested Courser of Kruphix in RG I found it kinda meh. I mean, it's a sweet card and all, and can provide actual card advantage, but at most times it was close to irrelevant. Of course, Burn matchup was greatly improved, but considering everything else, I'd rather run additional looting effects, or a more solid beater in Hooting Mandrills. One of the main reasons being that the deck doesn't actually play a lot of lands, so the life gain effect+midrangey value gets a bit diminished. It helps me dig for what I want, but I'm unsure if it's worth the slot.
Not even close to being "4 as a base", but I could totally see efficient lists running a couple of them. But still, not convinced.
If you had read the latest posts on the thread, you'd see that the author is actually posting his opinions here as well. Personally I'm not a fan of the idea, but it definitely could work.
I agree on 0-2 Crushers because often times you topdeck it and it does nothing. It's a very powerful card, but requires some setup or time to grow and dominate the board. I like to think of it much like Knight of the Reliquary - sometimes they're just not worth the tempo and mana.
Looking forward to it, I remember last year you helped me a lot with my first tests by providing very helpful feedback. You going Zoo-esque?
Completely agree - I have lost more than a few games to Blood Moon, due to only playing 1 basic Forest. Always try to increase the number, but manabase starts to get clunky (even at RG) because of Seismic Assault mana requirements (and even for Molten Vortex, activation mana requirements). Blood Moon has been strangely efficient against my deck because puts me on topdeck mode for Faithless Looting, Magmatic Insight or lands, shutting down the recursive portion of the deck. It's a big blowout. Might try doing it again, maybe 2 Forests, or 3. Add a second Fire-Lit Thicket for good measure.
I'm hopeful for more utility lands on line with Bojuka Bog, but on RG, could be great.
Also, anything with Landfall is a winner for me. Really like the mechanic, and even if I can't get to fit in the Assault Loam deck, will end up brewing something.
EDIT: Also, there's always the possibility that a card similar to Life from the Loam is printed, which could add great consistency for the deck.
Yeah, Crusher does that. However, there's much more upside than downside to it.
What I have been doing is being more conservative when casting Crusher. Sometimes I make sure I have already a Life from the Loam before slamming him, or at least one or two Faithless Looting on the graveyard to get some advantage from. It doesn't make these situations less awkward, just helps playing around them.
Really curious as to how this list of yours would perform - though from my experience I have found Commune with the Gods a bit slow and clunky, buy indeed helps with the sideboard plan and sure helps dig for Life from the Loam. I'm all for testing, though. Do you have any prospects for testing in the near future?
If you go heavy on BR you can probably do something like this:
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Blood Crypt
2 Stomping Ground
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Raging Ravine
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Forest
This manabase is a bit greedy on the basics, but can easily support Raven's Crime. If you keep the Green splash to a minimum, I'd even take the Raging Ravine away and try to fit some black disruption.
I don't think Smallpox is this easy to insert on the shell, but you could try something like Raphael Levy's Smallpox and go for an interesting overlap.
Or a Lightning Bolt + 1 land.
And anyway, you'll be taking 4 from Dismember. It's rough.
As @mykatdied said, even Roast might be a better option if your meta is heavy on delve aggro. Roast currently looks pretty strong, since it deals with a huge number of things that a large variety of decks play. If my meta shifted to a heavier delve beats theme, I'd surely put a couple on my SB and probably one maindeck.
You could also play some other early game aggro speed bumps, such as Kitchen Finks, Elvish Visionary or a couple of walls. I think it's worse than Roast, but it all depends on what your deck is trying to do and what kind of meta you face there.
I don't see why it'd be that great, actually. I mean, it is a good card, but running good cards just for the sake of them being good isn't very appealing. Either way, Indestructible or Protection from Red isn't as played nowadays, so I really don't see why Dismember would be that good of an idea.
Sure, it trades "1:1" with creatures with toughness 5 or less, if you ignore the life loss. But you can always just throw more lands at them anyway. Really isn't that big of a deal if Deceiver Exarch, Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Tarmogoyf take multiple lands to kill - if the deck assembles the engine consistently enough, you'll be in a good spot.
However, on Jund Dismember looks really good, would totally play it as a 1 or 2-of.
IMHO the trick for RG to work is looking back at the old days. Cascade/Swans of Bryn Argoll/Seismic Assault, standard Countryside Crusher decks and generic RG stompy things. Then, apply what you learn with newer cards and keep trying.
Go too far on combo, and you get clunky.
Go too far on midrange, and you'll benefit of a splash (considering ALL possibilities - WUB).
Keep testing, and look for a removal/interaction suite that fits with your playstyle and metagame. Discover whether you need to be more aggressive or conservative, depending on each matchup. Learn to trust in your deck, and figure out the odds of drawing good cards befogre Dredging.
I don't think this is a high-Tier competitive deck as in "stock lists that are consistently effective against most of the format" - but for sure it can be tailored to suit certain metagames and styles. The way I see it, it's a promising archetype with a lot of possibilities: you just need to figure out what you actually want/need.
Thanks! ^^
I'd say the Ghost Quarter-Life from the Loam plan is always there. Helps a lot against RG Tron, greedy Grixis and Jund. Strangely effective against Burn as well.
The best part is that sometimes I get to perform this while controlling the board or going for the win.
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Stomping Ground
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Raging Ravine
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Mountain
1 Forest
3 Scavenging Ooze
3 Countryside Crusher
1 Eternal Witness
3 Hooting Mandrills
//Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
4 Magmatic Insight
4 Life from the Loam
//Enchantments
3 Molten Vortex
4 Seismic Assault
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Nature's Claim
3 Guttural Response
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Feed the Clan
2 Anger of the Gods
Minor tweak - changed the second Tectonic Edge for the third maindeck Ghost Quarter, and put a third Kitchen Finks on the sideboard. No special reason.
Friday Night Magic - Monstore @ Montclair, CA
34 players - 6 rounds
This is a very cool store that I usually play on Fridays whenever I get a ride. The field is usually very diverse - including some number of brews - but a lot of meta decks are played as well. It balances fun and competition quite well, IMO.
Disclaimer: I'm basing this report on my notes, as well as on my crappy memory - some details might have been lost/mixed up/slightly exaggerated.
Round 1 - versus Grixis Delver
2-1
My opponent seemed to be experimenting with the deck, and had some interesting card choices.
Game 1 starts a bit slowly for him, since I had Lightning Bolt to get rid of an early Delver of Secrets and Young Pyromancer. Shortly after, I set my hand tapping out for Life from the Loam retrieving 3 lands and Molten Vortex on the board. He proceeds to untap and cast Toil // Trouble dealing 7 damage to me. Quite a scare, but I managed to stabilize the board state and proceed to kill him quickly two turns later.
Game 2 I side in 3 Guttural Response and 2 Nature's Claim to hedge against Leyline of the Void. I mull to 6 and keep a hand with double Lightning Bolt, a Guttural Response and Magmatic Insight, but fail to find the engine cards. Eventually got beaten down by Tasigur, the Golden Fang before I had the chance to recover.
Game 3 I keep a greedy hand (Molten Vortex, Magmatic Insight, Lightning Bolts, a Guttural Response but only one land) and get immediately rewarded with turn 2 topdeck land for Magmatic Insighting into a fetch and a Life from the Loam. Take a lot of damage from my lands, by keep the opponent from developing the board and proceed to kill him on turn 6-ish. 1-0, off to a good start.
Round 2 - versus Abzan Midrange (budget)
2-1
This guy was playing a really cool Abzan list with Scrylands and some other offbeat cards such as Tidehollow Sculler. Seemed sub optimal (of course), but it didn't perform poorly AT ALL. The games were very interesting and engaging - I praise creative budget solutions for broad spectrum strategies.
Game 1 was the old trading game. Hooting Mandrills dodged Inquisition of Kozilek and ate a Maelstrom Pulse (if I remember correctly). We exchanged resources (including Seismic Assault being destroyed in response to killing some creatures) until I landed a Molten Vortex, cast 2 Life from the Loam and shot him down from 21 in 2 great turns.
Game 2 I know for sure that I'll face Rest in Peace, so side in my 3 Nature's Claim and the Kitchen Finks to help me drag the game. I get blown out by an early Rest in Peace, and fail to find Nature's Claim and Life from the Loam, even though I cast about 4 looting effects. Eventually I run out of naturally drawn lands to Seismic Assault his attackers, and die to Siege Rhino and Lingering Souls aided by Gavony Township.
Game 3 I keep a solid hand with everything I ever wanted, including one Nature's Claim, Faithless Looting turn 1 draws me a second Life from the Loam, and use it to bait a Rest in Peace that never came. Opponent proceeds to pressure the board while I answer it, even getting to cast a Feed the Clan in response to Tasigur, the Golden Fang succumbing to my repeated shocks and bumping up to an incredible 28 life total. Shortly after, though, I set a Countryside Crusher with a Wooded Foothills + Molten Vortex activation to profitably block a Loxodon Smiter. From 28 he goes to 18 in a turn (Vortex), and I get to untap with a 11/11 Crusher. He concedes. 2-0, feeling great!
Round 3 - versus Grixis Twin
0-2
Played one of my friends - ironically, we agree that the match is slightly favorable to me, but I got rekt.
Game 1 is blur. I kept trying to assemble the engine while playing around disruption and his combo. He wins on the fair plan, and overwhelms me with card advantage and tempo. I think I severely misplayed in a couple parts, but I was too scared of the combo. Should've gone full YOLO on him and accept that if he had the combo he'd get the easy win, but instead took way too much damage from his creatures.
Game 2 I side in the 3 Guttural Response against disruption and 2 Nature's Claim for good measure. I open with turn 1 Molten Vortex, and keep lands in hand just waiting for looting effects and Life from the Loam to improve my position. Sadly, I don't get to draw it. Game was very grindy, turn after turn trying to stop him from attacking. Killed Tasigur twice, but the third was too much. 2-1, at least lost to my buddy - and his deck is solid, so my tiebreakers should be good.
Round 3 - versus Affinity (with multiple Galvanic Blasts)
1-2
After this match, talked a lot with this opponent about different ways to build affinity. He opted for a slightly more colored build running additional Galvanic Blasts and Master of Etherium, which seemed to work for him. Would've sided differently if I knew.
Game 1 I keep a solid (but not surprisingly fast) hand, and he gets a blistering fast draw with double Cranial Plating. I manage to get some time with Lightning Bolt, but by the time I draw a Molten Vortex I'm already dead on the water.
Game 2 I side in the 2 Anciend Grudges, 3 Nature's Claim and 2 Anger of the Gods, siding out some of the slower cards. Mulligan to 6 for a solid keep (with Molten Vortex and Magmatic Insight), and proceed to turn 2 make him sacrifice his Glimmervoid at the end of my turn. Drew all 3 Nature's Claim on this game, and Vortex did a hell of a job keeping his board clear. After that, managed to burn him out while still killing his creatures through 3 or 4 turns.
Game 3 I keep a very greedy hand, another 1-lander with Magmatic Insight. Again, manage to topdeck a land for turn 1, cast Insight and draw 2 more lands. Feels like Christmas after I topdeck Molten Vortex on turn 2. However, though I really win the early game, he suddenly drops a Blood Moon. Game becomes an awkward draw-go fest (we laughed a lot at this) while I desperately hope to draw more lands for the Vortex, my singleton Forest or some looting effects. Instead, I draw multiple Life from the Loam, redundant copies of Seismic Assault/Molten Vortex and uncastable spells like Hooting Mandrills or Nature's Claim. He beats me a little bit with topdecked Memnites and whatnot, and gets to draw 3 of his Galvanic Blasts to close the match. 2-2.
Round 5 - versus Jund
0-2
I like to think that Molten Vortex greatly improved this matchup because now we can play more of this effect than his deck plays Abrupt Decays. But certainly isn't enough.
Both Game 1 and 2 were very similar. He overwhelmed me with efficient removal, I failed to draw Life from the Loam until very late in the game and he managed to succeed. Very sad 2-3.
Round 6 - versus Bant Brew: return of the glorious draw-go!
2-0
This guy was having a blast earlier on the night - I saw him Sphinx's Revelation for 6 with a Sphinx's Tutelage on the battlefield. Against Burn. He was a really nice guy, playing this crazy brew with singleton maindeck techs and whacky interactions.
Game 1 as soon as I see an Island, I play with great caution. Slip in a Hooting Mandrills, keep hitting him for 4 and he gets mana flooded. Seismic Assault gets Voidslimed (!!!), but Mandrills get there. Just to make sure, I cast Molten Vortex and keep lands in hand for lethal. He scoops.
For Game 2 I side in the Guttural Responses (juicy answer to Sphinx's Revelation) and 2 Nature's Claim just in case he gets some graveyard hate there. He goes all draw-go, Voidslimes my spells again, as well as Remands an early Hooting Mandrills that later gets Supreme Verdicted. He draws some cards, gains some life with Timely Reinforcements and casts a Sphinx's Tutelage, but I'm already getting there with good old Raging Ravine. On my last attack, it was pretty big, 7/7 perhaps. 3-3.
Final Results: 3-3 ; 14th out of 34
Verdict: Mediocre
I honestly think there's some potential there. I don't think I played sloppy, but definitely could have performed better. At least I had some fun heh
The friend I played at Round 3 went 5-1, losing on the finals and locking 2nd place. Really happy for him
Yeah, Tarmogoyfs are way too much, don't play them either.
Good reasoning on Raven's Crime, thanks for the input.
About Molten Vortex locking up your mana - how conservative/aggressive do you play with it?
I imagine that given the overlapping removal in Abrupt Decay, Terminate and Maelstrom Pulse you probably have a surplus of lands in hand (not considering ultra-pressure matchups, like Infect), opposed to my RG list that tends to operate without cards in hand from turn 5 onward... I know this may sound repetitive, but how helpful has your list been on awkward draws?
One of the key problems with my approach is that sometimes the deck performs REALLY badly if I fail to find one of the engine cards. While the overall consistence has greatly improved (+4 looting effects in Magmatic Insight, extra Seismic Assaults in Molten Vortexes...), there are still some games in which I seem to dig through a considerable portion of my library, and still fail to find one of the key pieces. Do you consider that the addition of the removal suite improves these draws, lessening negative variance?
Though it may sound like a stupid question, I have not tested your list specifically, and have great interest in understanding the reasoning behind some of your card choices - since it shines some light on future possibilities with what I could try with the archetype.
Considering a Jund list, you're probably right - and Kessig Wolf Run surely looks like a tasty tech there. Been refraining myself of using it due to Seismic Assault's casting requirements, and the fact that my list already had Ghost Quarters and Tectonic Edges, but its value increases by the side of Gurmag Anglers and Tasigur, the Golden Fang.
About Smallpox, makes sense. Made some research on Raphael Levy's list, thanks for the tip.
Very interesting list - reminds me of some tests I did last year, adding Assault-Loam-Retrace package in a traditional Jund shell. This idea surely seems a lot better now, with Tasigur, Vortex and whatnot. Good report on your part - congratulations for the performance!
Have you considered trimming the Countryside Crushers? I play a straight RG list and have been testing 2 or 3 at a time, and even though they steal games sometimes, in certain contexts they are far too underwhelming. The removal package looks amazing there, and surely adds a ton of consistency to the deck.
About some card choices, what are your thoughts on maindecking Raven's Crime and a couple of Young Pyromancers for value? And what of Smallpox? Hooting Mandrills?
Your manabase looks solid - back when I was testing (again, with Assault) I had a ton of trouble with it, but seems that you managed to find a good point for the red mana generation.