My core reason for the vote becoming more serious is that Azrael feels particularly unengaged compared to my past experience with him as usually a town leader or at least an active voice. He explicitly seems to ask others to do his work for him.
Bruh. Working with other townies figure out how to arrive at correct reads is not "asking other people to do his work for him." Meta is incredibly important for results. If playing on in the site battles taught me one thing, it was that. Without a baseline to use for reads, it's really, really easy to make mistakes. Not that you can't play, but you fail to rule out aberrations that should be ruled out, and vice versa. It's incredibly helpful, and Sloth was absolutely being a team player helping me out there. Definitely helps to have that baseline.
Sloth, I missed responding to your question earlier. Osie's the only person who I'm familiar with here and played with before, so any assessments you can provide regarding levels of experience, interesting NAI quirks, typical tells, would be invaluable.
In case it isn't clear, my vote on Azrael is serious.
Didn't read where you voted me. I'm guessing it was short and unimportant, and also wrong. Pretty sure about the wrong part, actually. But would you care to explain why you're wrong about me? I'm all ears.
Umami's commentary on Sloth and Tubba seems to be an outsider point of view with their pointing out of the sorta mentoring that Sloth was doing. Umami's reactions to fulcrum does not feel like handling of a scumbuddy. The aggression seems real. Umami's read on Sloth does not feel like handling of a scumbuddy. Wary, but not knowing. Umami's read on Azrael feels very involved for early game despite Umami expressing a dislike for early game reads. I also don't believe that's on a scumbuddy.
Umami's mechanics discussion with TerRaine feels like it would be done in scumchat if they were buddies. Tentatively not scumbuddies.
Umami has zero interaction towards Tubba outside of the Sloth mentor comment. I'm leaving that team in the POE, but low because I think Umami is probably just town.
Umami in general seems to be actively sorting people. I like their handling of fulcrum in particular. It feels quite genuine. I can't quite rule out enough teams to fully be comfortable with calling Umami a top!town read, but I think that I can comfortably say I soft townread here.
My last game with Sloth was a semi-recent game in which he was scum and I was town. Sloth can post quite well as either alignment.
When I first read Sloth and TerRaine, I was like "There's no way that both of these people are town." Then I reconsidered given that I know they are close friends. I don't think I can separate that element from their Page 1 interactions, unfortunately, so I don't get a lot out of them, but that visceral "At least one of these players may be faking this" is still lingering.
Sloth's handling of Tubba started out pinging me as being too controlled. I was particularly paranoid of Sloth due to posts like #26. But I think that it goes a little too far to be scum theater. I can't entirely rule out that team on principle, but I sorta believe that there's a little bit too much detail and substance to their interactions to be a likely team.
Sloth's handling of Azrael feels like two people who haven't interacted in a scumchat yet. Particularly #37 and somewhat #43. The focus on my vote on Azrael is a little concerning to me, but it's not an alarm bell yet. There's no way #133 is a bus, though. Striking this one off the list.
#77, #132, and the Tubba interactions about Ter are a good look for Sloth as trying to sort Ter. The scumread feels legitimate. In particular there's not a macro-micro contradiction with how he seems to be thinking about Ter this game.
The way Sloth is questioning Umami feels like Town who thinks they might be on to something. It's definitely not how I would expect him to handle her if they were buddies.
If Sloth and fulcrum are buddies, I feel like it's better for Sloth to let fulcrum do her thing rather than ask what the use is in #73. Poking fulcrum to contribute in #76 feels mostly NAI, but #133 is a lot of discussion that doesn't feel like a powerwolf. Unless Sloth's powerwolf game is just that strong. *shudders* I probably shouldn't rule this team out entirely but it's definitely meh.
Sloth feels like he's going through the thread person by person and trying to directly place each one by interacting with them. It's not necessarily my way of playing the game, but it's refreshingly active and I think it's a good look for him. Sloth feels independently townie. And he's sexy.
Fulcrum's Azrael vote pinged me almost instantly as feeling a little forced for RVS. Fulcrum's interactions with Azrael were short-lived, but #82 is the interesting post here. If anything, it kinda feels like it goes in with Fulcrum talking about Azrael and then she just drops any thoughts about Azrael jarringly. I can't rule out that team as of #143. Okay, #146 gets there for me. That's legit.
Fulcrum is rather playful with both Sloth and Umami, as can be expected due to higher familiarity. Fulcrum seems to tunnel in a bit on Umami before determining a top!town read. This is a very good look for fulcrum individually, but it does make it harder to eliminate some other fulcrum team worlds due to lowered interaction with others. I think that fulcrum's handling of TerRaine can push that pair into meh, but even then, that's a bit of a stretch.
I need more from Fulcrum on Ter and Tubba to really eliminate those teams, but I'm willing to wait for it; I think Fulcrum has enough town equity here to deserve that concession, particularly after giving her read on Azrael.
I sorta talked about this already, but I figured I would go into detail again for perspective.
I had read Tubba closely in their first two games on this site. They were very uncoordinated and, if I remember correctly, substituted in a degree of trolly flippancy to make up for their lack of confidence in their reads. (I might be completely on the wrong tack, here, and if I am, I'm sorry to Tubba.)
It's been a while since those games though, and I remember seeing that Tubba had gotten much better.
#30 is the first post where Tubba seems to be actively thinking about the game. (Not a mark against him, just saying.) I sorta think between #30 and #53, I can rule out the Sloth-Tubba team, as those posts don't really feel coached.
Tubba needs to post more content. There's no interaction towards Azrael, Fulcrum, or Umami, and TerRaine-directed interactions are open to a bucketload of wine. I like Tubba's #124, but I can't rule out that it could be a pocket attempt.
Let it not be said that I don't try to draw blood from a stone. My initial read on TerRaine was very much trying to read into the interactions with Sloth and I think that muddied the waters on its strength.
I'm worried that Ter is focused very specifically. Odd defense of Sloth in #36, lots of time spent on my read of her, more specific defense of Umami in #69 as a lurker, but then she turns around and is aggressive towards Umami... And oh god so much fluff! I like fluff sometimes but there is a distinct lack of content here. I'm not seeing much of anything in the way of intent to sort outside of her interactions with me, which feel forced and potentially the start of trying to setup a mislynch.
Zero interaction with Tubba. Essentially zero interaction with Fulcrum. Potentially but not tellingly TMI on a Sloth/Azrael dichotomy in #36, one way or another, but I'm not convinced yet.
The setup discussion with Umami is awkward for me. On the one hand, I feel like it's likely a wolf!Ter handling a town!Umami. On the other hand, I could also see it being some pretty good theatre. I don't know... For now, I think I'll leave this at meh.
But all in all, this player is scummy. I don't know Ter as well as other players in this game do, but my guess (no offense to Ter) is that Azrael is the more valuable player to keep around in case Azrael is town.
Oh, Azrael. How I missed you. I might not have played in this game were it not for your presence. And yet, where is your presence! Where are the Azraels of yesteryear?
Interlude:
(Translation to avoid potential moderation)
I think I've asked this question before and been told that running a legal firm is hard work.
Anyways...
Azrael's RVS vote on Sloth pinged me as potentially being theatre, but I'm comfortable in thinking that I've ruled that out. His following post, #29, feels bad. It very much is a feeling of asking everyone else to do the work for him. And a bit of that tongue-in-cheek "Yeah, I'm totally scum, guys" sarcastic tone that I expect from classic MtGS players, mostly.
Mild ping of #33 being an over-reaction.
#34 is another request for help with meta.
#39, particularly with the repeated requests for help with meta, just feels very disengaged.
#41 is a post that could go either way on theatre or not. It's a little frustrating since it sorta makes me want to push the Azrael-Ter team down to a meh, whereas in my read-through leading up to making this post, I had that as the top team potential. I don't know... For now I think I will leave it where it is and see more later.
I think that while I find Azrael scummy, I also definitely need to see more to cement a read here.
Scumlean.
Teams Left:
Azrael-Ter - Lots of potential here.
Azrael-Tubba - Some potential here.
Ter-Tubba - Lots of potential here.
I don't like doing effort reads, but dang what a post. I honestly just want to assume you're town and solve from there. Want to see more from Ter first. If you're scum, I'm seriously impressed. (someone should let me know if I'm too easily impressed)
Umami feels townish, the mechanics talk could be a way to create content without providing reads, but I don’t feel like that’s what’s happening here.
Fulcrum feels predatory. I’m not sure how to explain it, it’s just the vibe I’m getting from their posting.
Azrael hasn’t really stood out to me, I don’t have anything there yet.
Solid. This was an interesting analysis technique the few times I've seen it, probably needs layered into my repertoire. I think the days of my having time for that labor-intensive style have closed, though. Kids and running stuff. Pretty all-consuming pairing. But things are actually a tad bit less insane thanks to COVID, enough to squeeze in a 7-person mini, with a much lower analysis burden. That was a thought at least. Less need for dreadnoughts and PBPAs for accuracy.
That’s just my Colombo shtick, I wanted to see how Osie would react to the question. I disagreed that Ter felt “pure”, and the term “pure” is so nebulous that I wanted them to talk/explain it more.
Oh, hello. Someone else whose name I don't recognize. I know, I know, pot-kettle. I always used to hate the lurkers, before I became one. Now, it's more like, "hello, fellow failure! Welcome!"
No you’re good, this is impressive and even more so if scum. I answered your question regarding my Osie question in a response to... someone else. Basically, wanted to grab Osie’s attention with one hand and make funny distracting hand motions with the other and see how they responded.
Well, that's like the most back-handed way of complimenting Osie and twisting his analysis into a scum-tell I've ever seen. I mean, Osie's good enough and it's within his meta enough that I can't put as much reliance on it as a town tell as I'm tempted to, but way to try to subtly plant that Osie's super dangerous scum in everyone's minds to undermine him.
I was pretty salty there, not gonna lie. It could’ve gone so differently if we had utilized day chat to actually coordinate as a team. Like, instead of hoping I would catch onto the in-thread plan before all star veteran Shadow, you could I dunno, just tell me the plan ahead of time...
And it was more of a tactical retreat than giving up. I’m not likely to thunderdome Shadow and the more I talked the more likely I was to spew. Just a very frustrating game.
Hunh. You know, there's this thing that scum do when they're in lurker mode at times. They scroll through the thread, looking for only the posts that impact them to address and to read, defensively.
@Azrael: Are we in for another wolfy pop-in or are you planning to be more active?
*level look* Hasn't there been some game or other lately that proved to you that the new, time-starved, economy-version Az is a real thing? I know ya'all want me to post so you can get reads on me. You don't have to harass me over it every game - or use it as a means to attack me even though you should be aware by now it's heavily NAI. *crosses arms* I will post when I can, and it will be informative about my mindset. I'm going to do my best. But you keep using this baseline comparison to student Azrael who stacked all his classes on two days a week, and had all of the remaining five to happily play mafia. In game after game. And I don't know if you really think that makes sense, as a townie, or if you're just using it as a scum tactic to plant suspicion in everyone's minds about my experience and activity level, as one of the only people who have played with me before.
Frankly, given that you seem to be suggesting that my current level of activity is somehow unusual, when I've barely been able to play one game a year for the past three years, I'd much rather people ask me questions about my meta directly than rely on these casual potshots.
I'm not sure I understand.
I would...presumably arrive to the same conclusions I did with Az based of the idea that if you don't know me, I don't know you either so I can only use the same analysis I used on him for you.
With the conditional that I do know you despite you not knowing me and with you acting the way Azrael has...I'd probably be very confused about you right about now: This certainty and voting on me right off the bat would be very unlike you and I would imagine you wouldn't do it as scum, but I also don't see why you're doing it as town. Reaction testing maybe? But so randomly on a player you don't know?
I'd probably have a scumlean on you due to the confusion.
But you're you and Azrael's Azrael.
Having answered this question, I'm even less sure of what you were hoping to gain as Town, so maybe this is one of the times you should be direct.
Classic townie response here. Hard-town read on Sloth solidifying further.
Anyway, I do love that Azrael gives out town credit for people writing long posts that give us a chance to read them and yet has written very, very little. Azrael, let me try to read you
Azrael is a hypocrite who used to spend way, way more time on the game and be much better than he is now, everyone misses the old version of him, and prefers it. Shadow of his former self type of thing. What else would you like to know? Pepper me with questions.
Also, looking back on some of the old tropes I used to engage in, I don't think I ever realized before how much I intentionally lied and exaggerated in my townie playstyle before. Like, an integral part of my old-school townie doctrine was to be really fake-aggressive to solicit information, going back like...fifteen years of my games. Which is fine, it gets results, starts conversations and info for the town, but it would also be really jarring for anyone who wasn't familiar with me doing that thing. I was reading through everyone trying to parse what I was doing there, and was just thinking to myself "Yup...that's gonna be real hard for them to figure out, isn't it?"
Plus town to Miami and fulcrum for the walls of text, giving us the tools to read them. Keeping an eye on terraine, if she replied to my question, I missed that.
Also, someone please help me with meta here. Trying to eval people without a baseline for their skill level and tendencies is like flailing with a baseball bat in a darkened room.
Oh, he's definitely scummy. The mislynch would be going after someone instead of him. But I'm being fair, and giving him a chance to help me make the wrong play. To mislynch, instead of just nailing scum d1.
Who are all the rest of these people and what should I know about their metas so I don't screw up my reads on them? Toss a coin to your witcher?
@Sloth- No, not his partner. I don't swing that way. I was hoping you could teach me. Like, why are you already so scummy and why I should ignore it and mislynch someone else. Kthxbye.
Bruh. Working with other townies figure out how to arrive at correct reads is not "asking other people to do his work for him." Meta is incredibly important for results. If playing on in the site battles taught me one thing, it was that. Without a baseline to use for reads, it's really, really easy to make mistakes. Not that you can't play, but you fail to rule out aberrations that should be ruled out, and vice versa. It's incredibly helpful, and Sloth was absolutely being a team player helping me out there. Definitely helps to have that baseline.
Sloth, I missed responding to your question earlier. Osie's the only person who I'm familiar with here and played with before, so any assessments you can provide regarding levels of experience, interesting NAI quirks, typical tells, would be invaluable.
Didn't read where you voted me. I'm guessing it was short and unimportant, and also wrong. Pretty sure about the wrong part, actually. But would you care to explain why you're wrong about me? I'm all ears.
Yeah, I hate playing on mobile. Auto-corrected.
Solid. This was an interesting analysis technique the few times I've seen it, probably needs layered into my repertoire. I think the days of my having time for that labor-intensive style have closed, though. Kids and running stuff. Pretty all-consuming pairing. But things are actually a tad bit less insane thanks to COVID, enough to squeeze in a 7-person mini, with a much lower analysis burden. That was a thought at least. Less need for dreadnoughts and PBPAs for accuracy.
Oh, hello. Someone else whose name I don't recognize. I know, I know, pot-kettle. I always used to hate the lurkers, before I became one. Now, it's more like, "hello, fellow failure! Welcome!"
Well, that's like the most back-handed way of complimenting Osie and twisting his analysis into a scum-tell I've ever seen. I mean, Osie's good enough and it's within his meta enough that I can't put as much reliance on it as a town tell as I'm tempted to, but way to try to subtly plant that Osie's super dangerous scum in everyone's minds to undermine him.
Hunh. You know, there's this thing that scum do when they're in lurker mode at times. They scroll through the thread, looking for only the posts that impact them to address and to read, defensively.
*level look* Hasn't there been some game or other lately that proved to you that the new, time-starved, economy-version Az is a real thing? I know ya'all want me to post so you can get reads on me. You don't have to harass me over it every game - or use it as a means to attack me even though you should be aware by now it's heavily NAI. *crosses arms* I will post when I can, and it will be informative about my mindset. I'm going to do my best. But you keep using this baseline comparison to student Azrael who stacked all his classes on two days a week, and had all of the remaining five to happily play mafia. In game after game. And I don't know if you really think that makes sense, as a townie, or if you're just using it as a scum tactic to plant suspicion in everyone's minds about my experience and activity level, as one of the only people who have played with me before.
Frankly, given that you seem to be suggesting that my current level of activity is somehow unusual, when I've barely been able to play one game a year for the past three years, I'd much rather people ask me questions about my meta directly than rely on these casual potshots.
Classic townie response here. Hard-town read on Sloth solidifying further.
Azrael is a hypocrite who used to spend way, way more time on the game and be much better than he is now, everyone misses the old version of him, and prefers it. Shadow of his former self type of thing. What else would you like to know? Pepper me with questions.
Also, looking back on some of the old tropes I used to engage in, I don't think I ever realized before how much I intentionally lied and exaggerated in my townie playstyle before. Like, an integral part of my old-school townie doctrine was to be really fake-aggressive to solicit information, going back like...fifteen years of my games. Which is fine, it gets results, starts conversations and info for the town, but it would also be really jarring for anyone who wasn't familiar with me doing that thing. I was reading through everyone trying to parse what I was doing there, and was just thinking to myself "Yup...that's gonna be real hard for them to figure out, isn't it?"
Simple. Math. 9 to 1 odds male versus female on mtg sites.
I'm always certain. Right up until I change my mind completely.
This isn't a real contradiction with Osie. Not even his real point. Why are you pushing it, as if it is?
Who are all the rest of these people and what should I know about their metas so I don't screw up my reads on them? Toss a coin to your witcher?
@Sloth- No, not his partner. I don't swing that way. I was hoping you could teach me. Like, why are you already so scummy and why I should ignore it and mislynch someone else. Kthxbye.
Graced a ride along
with Geralt of Rivia
Along came this song...
vote Sloth