this is going to be a long one, please forgive the spelling and grammar as im dyslexic and wont catch all the errores
form my limited play testing of Savage Swipe
the down side to true fight spells is that your creature almost always dies with it hence the use of natures way and dismember for so long, the big difference with swipe is the pump aspect on the card. this means that when your eone, narnam scooze or what ever fights your now have a much bigger buffer of defence (this is one of the reasons dromoka's command is so good, it pumps then it fights) providing a 3 or 4 (or in narnams case 5) defence means that you take out thalia, goblin guild, spell queller sized creatures without that loss of your own creature. it also increase the number of possible targets for a fight spell in your side of the field, (you would very rarly target militant, scooze or a 2/2 eone with fight spell as this meant loosing your creature as well). i would also point out a one drop spell makes evey creature in our deck able to take out thing in ice and thought knot seer wich are two of the biggest problems stompy as deck faces in the current meta. it also dose not cost life, and in burn and phoenix matchups the life loss form dismember is a huge handicap to winning these games.
the main advantage of this spell over prey upon or titanic brawl is that its almost a split card. it has two purposes and it fills both roles well (if imperfectly)
lastly i will concede that the big downside to this spell is soc speed, but the added pump on a creature is (in my opinion) significant enough to justify its inclusion (or at least further testing) in the mono green variant.
vines vs blossom,
i've written about the historical advantages of vines before and in the current meta they are still irrelevent (for now), so i will ignore them.
over the last 3 or so year the meta has got faster and faster. we need to be in the 16 damage by turn 4 (20 life minus a 2 fetches and a shock) to realistically get lethal. to do that effectively we need to be playing as much creatures as quickly as possible on our first 3 turns and alot of the time we will have only singular mana to work with
now the difference between the two is this
1 mana vines
hexproof
1 mana blossom
hexproof +2/+2
2 mana vines
hexproof +4/+4
2 mana blossom
hexproof +2/+2 and 1 spare mana
the one mana mode happens often enough that the variance and to be an issue
stuck one one land
blossom is supreare
2 lands, a lot of the time we want to be playing a creature, but we also don't what to loose our first to bolt or push presuming all one dops are 2 power (if eone is turn one play then defence is auto better due to the evolve trigger the second 1 drop nets him)
and that on turn three we are still stuck on 2 lands and we play a two drop
t2 t3 t4 total board state from first 2 turns
V+k 6 2 2 8 1 1drops
V-k 2 4 4 6 2 1drops
B 4 4 4 8 2 1drops
both defence and vines + kicker = 8 damage, and both vine - kicker and defence have a bigger broad presence, so in this case defence is slightly superior to maintain maximum aggression.
three mana
so turn one, onedrop turn 2 two drop (or 2 1drops)
turn three, we have a two drop in hand
it is better to play avatar and strangleroot before combat avatar for maximising the counter it gets and strangleroot for the haste.
B in this case you can attack in without worry and play the two drop. (or another 2 one drops)
V hear you have to hold up the mana attack in and potentially loose some board presents for the advantage of dealing extra damage and if you do not have another one drop in hand you lose the potential to lay a creatures this turn.
pump size
the other reason to play a pump spell is as a way of killing blocker or attackers(but this should be rare) against humans, spirits and phoenix defence serves as well as vines, now against hollow one, thoughtknot seer, gurmag angler and tasugare vines is superior due to the our creature surviving and there's not.
so meta share time (considering and approaching this from the view pint of a competitive meta (im going to use mtg top 8, yes there are other options but this is a particularly good one fro focusing on future competitive metas (as people tend to play the stuff that wins and places)
now in order of most played
Snapcaster Mage B
Walking Ballista (n/a our stuffs going to die no matter what)
Noble Hierarch (n/a dork)
Arclight Phoenix B (this will never defend, avatar is the only posible blocker, and with 2 defence defence will sufice)
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben B
Thing in the Ice B (if it flips we die anyway so this is only on offensive)
Phantasmal Image(N/A)
Celestial Colonnade V
Scavenging Ooze B (we are presuming early game as if scooze gets large we die anyway)
Reflector Mage B
Champion of the Parish Tie
Thalia's Lieutenant B
Wurmcoil Engine V (most of the time we die and killing it is worse that leaving it alive and dealing as much damage past it as possible to this but if we swig in 4 damage is better at offsetting the life gain that 2)
Crackling Drake B (defence kills it and they can esily make this big enough for the extra 2 from vines not to matter 99% of the time)
Kitesail Freebooter B
Mantis Rider V
Meddling Mage B
Tarmogoyf V
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger N/A
Vendilion Clique V (less lily to matter as will always attack and we will always almost trade)
Bloodghast B
Dark Confidant B
Tireless Tracker v
Primeval Titan v (but like wurm were already dead)
Monastery Swiftspear B
Death's Shadow V (this is the only time currently in modern where vines "target opponents stuff" abily is relevant)
Narcomoeba B
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet V (but again we dead)
Goblin Guide B
Prized Amalgam V (but if we didn't scooze it were probably dead)
looking at this a very clear picture come into being when the game is winnable blossom is better
when we are really struggling and our opponent has stopped just shore of winning vines is better, but in all but three case where vines is better aspect would be better again.
so in conclusion
if you are in the early game and trying to deal maximum damage as early as possible blossom is your spell. if your are on a low land count ( or running multiple copies of horizon canopy) blossom is your friend.
if your expect the game to go longer, have a higher curve (like the historically 8 1drops 10 2drops 7-8 3drops then vines is better)
vines is also better if you are facing, deathshadow (just) infect(alot) and if twin ever gets unbanned (alot)
(note bogles matchups B is better as even though you can target dryad arbour and the kor with aspect to fizzle stuff your are going to need to race to win, and enchemnt hate is vastly more effective that hoping they target the 3 permanents in there deck that you can use the double sided hexproof on. this also holds true for affinity (arcbound ravager and plating)
ok scooze
(ill keep this bit a little shorter)
basically with phoenix decks, dredge, neoform/reanimatore taking increasingly bigger chunks of the meta, scooze is more relevant more often (between the life gain and gy hate) yes its slower that normal gy hate but having it mb and 4 mb millanats makes these matchups slightly more winnable. this will flip back if spirits or coco decks become more popular again.
hope this answers your questions, if you need anything clarifying feel free to ask (i know that this a lot of marginally coherent information at best)
far tron has always been a bad matchup for the deck (especially the eldrazi version) ive mostly written the matcup off outside of a white splash for path charm, and teeg.
this is what i think will become the new optimal build after release (unless we get some more awesome cards to add, which is very possible)
(with the curved lowered by 14 one drops, and blossoming def over vines it may well be worth doing the land count to 20 as unless we draw steel leaf 2 mana is more that sufficient for the first 3 turns)
after many games the decks optimum opening turns still seems to be
turn one: eone
turn two: fetch millinat + narnam
although now
turn one: 1 two powered one drop
turn two: savage swipe, then rancor
seems as good and may be worth expanding on in the future.
This is a pretty rough cut and I'm not sure how many fetch lands I should increase the mana base by to optimize Narnam Renegade. Could also likely get away with a singleton copy of Mutavault, due to the lack of GG in casting costs.
12 fetchlands is optimal, although 8 can work well enough
mutavault is bad without tribal synagis.
i very highly recommend you read the super primer on the first post of this thread (it has a lot of information from a lot of sources and individuals and will help you avoid the basic pitfalls)
as a general run never run 4 dismembers, you cast 2 in a game and that 8 life down the drain. you cast three and crack a fetchlands or 2 and your opponent only has to deal 5-6 damage to close the game. (2 bolts or one solid attack from a gurmag or a flipped thing in the ice)
i think not running e ones is a mistake, they are easily one of the more resistant creatures for the deck
strangleroot geist is arguably the best card in the deck, its good in every matchup, and has a lot of synagis going for it.
4 treetop villages tend to be a mistake as they are bad in multiples and can very easily slow the deck down by a turn. they are good turn 4+ when you have 3 lands and are topdecking 1 drops or lands, and if you get boardwipe. but very very rarly if your on the aggressive start.
sb
you need life gain especially with fetch lands and dissmsbers, otherwise you may as well concede against burn.
you need something to help counter (reduce the impact of) board wipes as these are the biggest blowout you can face and in modern they happen your turn 2-3.
Repudiate // Replicate is just bad, if you what to stop an ability run pithing needle, and if you what an extra creature soc speed run a token generator or another good creature.
without targeted discard ir kill spells goyf doesnt far very well (hes been tried alot and is normally a 1/2 or 2/3) he also has only 1 devotion and no native abilities or counter synergy. millantant on the other hand is a one mana layline for spell slinger decks, which can straight up win games against dredge, phoenix, hollow one and storm. it also dose a lot of work against deathshadow w/u control, fairies and b/w smallpox.
so personally i would keep the dryad, the place i would cut would be rhonas (less good in the current meta) and maybe a avatar or a pump spell.
this would give us
14 one drop
7-8 2 drops
4 three drops
which is the ideal curve the decks wanted for a long time. (and only not had due to the awful state of one drops available to us)
i agree that the lvl 6 progenitus is going to be very rare, but the lvl 3 almost hexproof seems a lot more doable and consistent. if the snake dose well i might have to push back up the number of rancors in the deck as its the only pump that can reach it once its lvl 3. (i would also point out that if the snake becomes a 3-4 of in the deck it may make pelt collector a stronger choice than eone due to the die trigger as i fell that once this thing starts to get big your opponent is going to make it priority 1 as they will not be able to aford to deal with a 6/6 progenatus )
Just seen him as well. I will definitely try as a 2 of, as I feel multiples may be a little underwhelming.
Indo think this is what the deck needs as one thing I've noticed is the games that I tend to win are games when I just stick 3 one drops in the first 2 turns, and having this as also my turn three play seems very nice, I agree soc speed is a big let down but at least it's not another card (like when they hit under aspect )
I love the wurm card! This is some serious pump the overload seems a little to expensive to be viable. My main issue against this is that it can only target your stuff, turning your opponent ulamog or medaling mage into a big (but vanilla creture) seems like it would have been very potent. Also a shame about soc speed. If it had either of the upgrades I would consider running it but as is it's only really worth while with e one (as the counters still add to its mass) Militant, and a already killed strangle root.
So boarderline
The basic fetchland on the other hand, auto 4 of (solong as it stays cheap)
Horizon spoiler
First new card for us
Strict upgrade of prey upon
Savage swipe g
Soc
target creture you control gets +2/+2 until end of turn if it has 2 power.
Then it fight creture you don't control.
This works extremely well with narnams, dryads, strangleroot, and eones.
Shame about lack of instant speed as then it may have been as good as one of our hexproof u pump spells. Buy probably an auto include along side dissmeber going forwards for mono green builds.
Hi!
I've been lurking here for quite some time. My main deck is rUG evolve, but as it has had some rough times lately i've decided to try something different. This is sort of Gruul stompy, where i use atarka's command as pump spell instead of devotion. Maindeck relics and vines are there to hate the topdecks.
It's very much work in progress still, but any comments w'd be appreciated.
the red green version of the deck when you drop the devotion part of the deck just becomes a bad zoo deck. but as a rule i would run
12 fetchlands
4 narnams (arguably the best 1 drop)
4 krid apes
4 eones (better synergy with apes and narnams than pelt)
4 militant
2 scooze
4 giest
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 bolts
4 commands
as a starting point.
from hear you can either go back in the +1 counter route with avatar (which works well with devotion) or more go wide with pump with burning tree and bushwacker or go taller and with mb blood moons with a haste breade build.
if you go red/green aggro i honestly wouldn't bother with spell breaker, i would use the red to go for a lower more aggressive build with either more one drops (goblin guilds ect), or some card advantage with light up the stage. if these builds are what you would want to explore more you may have better luck on the Zoo thread.
I'm not so shore about rythem as you can curve out turn 1-2 the 3 rythem then stick a haste steelleaf which is pretty sweet and the same dandge clock as without only now you have the choice of making stuff big or haste. And it stops stuff being countered which is solid against control. (Pluses if your running red your also most likely running bloodbraid elf which is older slower Coco)
I agree about allince I've replaced it with Knight of Autumn as Knight dose the same stuff but more. The only matchup where this isn't as great is bogols and that was always a strait raise
I disagree with rest in peace. Turning of phenoix recasting of lootings and the janky stuff like pyro assencion, snaps and missions is a pretty big hit. Against dreadge is game unless the have removal and it dose alot in matchups like control, reanamator and hollow one. Yes sometimes you need removal to deal with threads that's why my deck has 8 in the 75 fire spout is interesting but not working against the spirit lord of there is more than one of the field isn't great.
I agree that you could run more that 1 treetop village but I think it's just to slow and small in the current meta for an aggro deck.
I think I would run cage over relic as relic is pretty mana intensive. And cage stops Coco and cord which is a huge upside.
The reason I've gone for more mb removal is that we just can not keep up with the better aggro decks, to me this means we need to take a slight more tempo approach to things. And flexible answers and solid hate ears seem to be they way to go. (I've been so impressed by teeg I'm honestly tempted to try 1/2 mb as when he's good he's game winning and a 2/2 for 2 isn't half bad anyway.
The reason I've go 12 fetches.
Basically it helps make narnam more consistent and means I can thin the deck pretty consistently (three fetches by turn three means 6 lands out of the deck which a pretty big change. I could be convinced to go 11 and 3 horizon but horizon can be pretty life intesive.
I will point out that Rhona's is amazing in drawn out control games and in matches like jund and deathshadow as it means mid game if they don't have instant speed removal you have a haste 5/5 with deathtouch and indestructible, and you can Ranor anything that they don't kill. Try viewing it more like a vehicle and less like a creature. As I've found it plays much more like that than a creture most of the time.
oh and in case anyone is interested in a optimised w/g list. this has been my competitive list for the last 2 months, it turn 4s well and the naie and sb hatebears allow for a solid amount of disruption.
notes Selesnya Charm is has become stronger and stronger as a removal card with the rise of phoenix and and the drop of humans, hence 2 in the 75 Rhonas the Indomitable and hooting mandrills are much less good than they where but they are still a strong option in a deathshadow and control heavy meta.
scooze, has been feeling slower and slower, hence the down to 2 mb and a rest in peace in its sb slot. but militant has become better and better in the meta so not all bad
at the moment im finding Blossoming Defense to be a stronger option than vines and vines ability to target our opponents stuff doesn't matter to much and the 1 mana for both the hexproof and the pump is very relevant , and i'm running 1 Dromoka's Command in a vines/defence slot as burn based removal is becoming more and more the norm,
1 Treetop Village. i've come to the conclusion that in a w splash build, the fetch requirements and teeg in sb helping stop or stall most board wipes 1 is all that's needed in the 75 (and all there is room for)
flexy slot/ undecided
Thrun, the Last Troll as he's become much worse now the most common mass removal spells i find are damnation and terminus. so may replace him with guttural Response
on another note has anyones tested a red splash with rhythm of the wild yet? as i would be interested how much the haste made up for taking turn 3 off and how much the creatures can't be countered clause matters in a aggro deck without caven.
mb finks
this is something i tried for a while, i found that yes its solid against burn but its not that great against much else at the moment (maybe jund) but that about it.
for phoenix scooze and militants are the most effective way to win. also having well timed removal is critical for drakes and things, the reason finks isn't as good is that they don't care about you having it on the field as 2 life is nothing and they don't need to kill it to win. the decks is feeling like it need another reach creature (agree with the comment above it may be worth revisiting Kraul Harpooner with phoenix and spirits so prevalent in the meta)
i've been struggling with the phoenix matchup and with the w splash im able to have dromkas commands, path and rest in peace in my 75. it basically comes down to luck and a race with them and it's one we normally loose.
if your having issues with burn have you tried kitchen finks? maybe on mb over beloth and 2 more sb. i also personally like a single pulse of murasa in the sb as its solid lifegain and card advantage to bring back stranglroots, scoze, finks against burn, or your hexproof things against control.
form my limited play testing of Savage Swipe
the down side to true fight spells is that your creature almost always dies with it hence the use of natures way and dismember for so long, the big difference with swipe is the pump aspect on the card. this means that when your eone, narnam scooze or what ever fights your now have a much bigger buffer of defence (this is one of the reasons dromoka's command is so good, it pumps then it fights) providing a 3 or 4 (or in narnams case 5) defence means that you take out thalia, goblin guild, spell queller sized creatures without that loss of your own creature. it also increase the number of possible targets for a fight spell in your side of the field, (you would very rarly target militant, scooze or a 2/2 eone with fight spell as this meant loosing your creature as well). i would also point out a one drop spell makes evey creature in our deck able to take out thing in ice and thought knot seer wich are two of the biggest problems stompy as deck faces in the current meta. it also dose not cost life, and in burn and phoenix matchups the life loss form dismember is a huge handicap to winning these games.
the main advantage of this spell over prey upon or titanic brawl is that its almost a split card. it has two purposes and it fills both roles well (if imperfectly)
lastly i will concede that the big downside to this spell is soc speed, but the added pump on a creature is (in my opinion) significant enough to justify its inclusion (or at least further testing) in the mono green variant.
vines vs blossom,
i've written about the historical advantages of vines before and in the current meta they are still irrelevent (for now), so i will ignore them.
over the last 3 or so year the meta has got faster and faster. we need to be in the 16 damage by turn 4 (20 life minus a 2 fetches and a shock) to realistically get lethal. to do that effectively we need to be playing as much creatures as quickly as possible on our first 3 turns and alot of the time we will have only singular mana to work with
now the difference between the two is this
1 mana vines
hexproof
1 mana blossom
hexproof +2/+2
2 mana vines
hexproof +4/+4
2 mana blossom
hexproof +2/+2 and 1 spare mana
the one mana mode happens often enough that the variance and to be an issue
stuck one one land
blossom is supreare
2 lands, a lot of the time we want to be playing a creature, but we also don't what to loose our first to bolt or push presuming all one dops are 2 power (if eone is turn one play then defence is auto better due to the evolve trigger the second 1 drop nets him)
and that on turn three we are still stuck on 2 lands and we play a two drop
t2 t3 t4 total board state from first 2 turns
V+k 6 2 2 8 1 1drops
V-k 2 4 4 6 2 1drops
B 4 4 4 8 2 1drops
both defence and vines + kicker = 8 damage, and both vine - kicker and defence have a bigger broad presence, so in this case defence is slightly superior to maintain maximum aggression.
three mana
so turn one, onedrop turn 2 two drop (or 2 1drops)
turn three, we have a two drop in hand
it is better to play avatar and strangleroot before combat avatar for maximising the counter it gets and strangleroot for the haste.
B in this case you can attack in without worry and play the two drop. (or another 2 one drops)
V hear you have to hold up the mana attack in and potentially loose some board presents for the advantage of dealing extra damage and if you do not have another one drop in hand you lose the potential to lay a creatures this turn.
pump size
the other reason to play a pump spell is as a way of killing blocker or attackers(but this should be rare) against humans, spirits and phoenix defence serves as well as vines, now against hollow one, thoughtknot seer, gurmag angler and tasugare vines is superior due to the our creature surviving and there's not.
so meta share time (considering and approaching this from the view pint of a competitive meta (im going to use mtg top 8, yes there are other options but this is a particularly good one fro focusing on future competitive metas (as people tend to play the stuff that wins and places)
now in order of most played
Snapcaster Mage B
Walking Ballista (n/a our stuffs going to die no matter what)
Noble Hierarch (n/a dork)
Arclight Phoenix B (this will never defend, avatar is the only posible blocker, and with 2 defence defence will sufice)
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben B
Thing in the Ice B (if it flips we die anyway so this is only on offensive)
Phantasmal Image(N/A)
Celestial Colonnade V
Scavenging Ooze B (we are presuming early game as if scooze gets large we die anyway)
Reflector Mage B
Champion of the Parish Tie
Thalia's Lieutenant B
Wurmcoil Engine V (most of the time we die and killing it is worse that leaving it alive and dealing as much damage past it as possible to this but if we swig in 4 damage is better at offsetting the life gain that 2)
Crackling Drake B (defence kills it and they can esily make this big enough for the extra 2 from vines not to matter 99% of the time)
Kitesail Freebooter B
Mantis Rider V
Meddling Mage B
Tarmogoyf V
Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger N/A
Vendilion Clique V (less lily to matter as will always attack and we will always almost trade)
Bloodghast B
Dark Confidant B
Tireless Tracker v
Primeval Titan v (but like wurm were already dead)
Monastery Swiftspear B
Death's Shadow V (this is the only time currently in modern where vines "target opponents stuff" abily is relevant)
Narcomoeba B
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet V (but again we dead)
Goblin Guide B
Prized Amalgam V (but if we didn't scooze it were probably dead)
looking at this a very clear picture come into being when the game is winnable blossom is better
when we are really struggling and our opponent has stopped just shore of winning vines is better, but in all but three case where vines is better aspect would be better again.
so in conclusion
if you are in the early game and trying to deal maximum damage as early as possible blossom is your spell. if your are on a low land count ( or running multiple copies of horizon canopy) blossom is your friend.
if your expect the game to go longer, have a higher curve (like the historically 8 1drops 10 2drops 7-8 3drops then vines is better)
vines is also better if you are facing, deathshadow (just) infect(alot) and if twin ever gets unbanned (alot)
(note bogles matchups B is better as even though you can target dryad arbour and the kor with aspect to fizzle stuff your are going to need to race to win, and enchemnt hate is vastly more effective that hoping they target the 3 permanents in there deck that you can use the double sided hexproof on. this also holds true for affinity (arcbound ravager and plating)
ok scooze
(ill keep this bit a little shorter)
basically with phoenix decks, dredge, neoform/reanimatore taking increasingly bigger chunks of the meta, scooze is more relevant more often (between the life gain and gy hate) yes its slower that normal gy hate but having it mb and 4 mb millanats makes these matchups slightly more winnable. this will flip back if spirits or coco decks become more popular again.
hope this answers your questions, if you need anything clarifying feel free to ask (i know that this a lot of marginally coherent information at best)
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
this is what i think will become the new optimal build after release (unless we get some more awesome cards to add, which is very possible)
4x Dryad Militant
4x Experiment One
2x Hexdrinker
4x Narnam Renegade
3x Avatar of the Resolute
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Strangleroot Geist
Enchantment (3)
3x Rancor
Instant (7)
3x Aspect of Hydra
3x Blossoming Defense
1x Dismember
Sorcery (2)
2x Savage Swipe
4x Forest
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Treetop Village
4x Prismatic Vista
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
(with the curved lowered by 14 one drops, and blossoming def over vines it may well be worth doing the land count to 20 as unless we draw steel leaf 2 mana is more that sufficient for the first 3 turns)
after many games the decks optimum opening turns still seems to be
turn one: eone
turn two: fetch millinat + narnam
although now
turn one: 1 two powered one drop
turn two: savage swipe, then rancor
seems as good and may be worth expanding on in the future.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
12 fetchlands is optimal, although 8 can work well enough
mutavault is bad without tribal synagis.
i very highly recommend you read the super primer on the first post of this thread (it has a lot of information from a lot of sources and individuals and will help you avoid the basic pitfalls)
as a general run never run 4 dismembers, you cast 2 in a game and that 8 life down the drain. you cast three and crack a fetchlands or 2 and your opponent only has to deal 5-6 damage to close the game. (2 bolts or one solid attack from a gurmag or a flipped thing in the ice)
Deathgorge Scavenger is also very bad, either run scavenging ooze-(3 of max) or steel leaf champion in this slot
i think not running e ones is a mistake, they are easily one of the more resistant creatures for the deck
strangleroot geist is arguably the best card in the deck, its good in every matchup, and has a lot of synagis going for it.
4 treetop villages tend to be a mistake as they are bad in multiples and can very easily slow the deck down by a turn. they are good turn 4+ when you have 3 lands and are topdecking 1 drops or lands, and if you get boardwipe. but very very rarly if your on the aggressive start.
sb
you need life gain especially with fetch lands and dissmsbers, otherwise you may as well concede against burn.
you need something to help counter (reduce the impact of) board wipes as these are the biggest blowout you can face and in modern they happen your turn 2-3.
Repudiate // Replicate is just bad, if you what to stop an ability run pithing needle, and if you what an extra creature soc speed run a token generator or another good creature.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
so personally i would keep the dryad, the place i would cut would be rhonas (less good in the current meta) and maybe a avatar or a pump spell.
this would give us
14 one drop
7-8 2 drops
4 three drops
which is the ideal curve the decks wanted for a long time. (and only not had due to the awful state of one drops available to us)
i agree that the lvl 6 progenitus is going to be very rare, but the lvl 3 almost hexproof seems a lot more doable and consistent. if the snake dose well i might have to push back up the number of rancors in the deck as its the only pump that can reach it once its lvl 3. (i would also point out that if the snake becomes a 3-4 of in the deck it may make pelt collector a stronger choice than eone due to the die trigger as i fell that once this thing starts to get big your opponent is going to make it priority 1 as they will not be able to aford to deal with a 6/6 progenatus )
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Indo think this is what the deck needs as one thing I've noticed is the games that I tend to win are games when I just stick 3 one drops in the first 2 turns, and having this as also my turn three play seems very nice, I agree soc speed is a big let down but at least it's not another card (like when they hit under aspect )
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
So boarderline
The basic fetchland on the other hand, auto 4 of (solong as it stays cheap)
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
First new card for us
Strict upgrade of prey upon
Savage swipe g
Soc
target creture you control gets +2/+2 until end of turn if it has 2 power.
Then it fight creture you don't control.
This works extremely well with narnams, dryads, strangleroot, and eones.
Shame about lack of instant speed as then it may have been as good as one of our hexproof u pump spells. Buy probably an auto include along side dissmeber going forwards for mono green builds.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
the red green version of the deck when you drop the devotion part of the deck just becomes a bad zoo deck. but as a rule i would run
12 fetchlands
4 narnams (arguably the best 1 drop)
4 krid apes
4 eones (better synergy with apes and narnams than pelt)
4 militant
2 scooze
4 giest
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 bolts
4 commands
as a starting point.
from hear you can either go back in the +1 counter route with avatar (which works well with devotion) or more go wide with pump with burning tree and bushwacker or go taller and with mb blood moons with a haste breade build.
if you go red/green aggro i honestly wouldn't bother with spell breaker, i would use the red to go for a lower more aggressive build with either more one drops (goblin guilds ect), or some card advantage with light up the stage. if these builds are what you would want to explore more you may have better luck on the Zoo thread.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
I agree about allince I've replaced it with Knight of Autumn as Knight dose the same stuff but more. The only matchup where this isn't as great is bogols and that was always a strait raise
I disagree with rest in peace. Turning of phenoix recasting of lootings and the janky stuff like pyro assencion, snaps and missions is a pretty big hit. Against dreadge is game unless the have removal and it dose alot in matchups like control, reanamator and hollow one. Yes sometimes you need removal to deal with threads that's why my deck has 8 in the 75 fire spout is interesting but not working against the spirit lord of there is more than one of the field isn't great.
I agree that you could run more that 1 treetop village but I think it's just to slow and small in the current meta for an aggro deck.
I think I would run cage over relic as relic is pretty mana intensive. And cage stops Coco and cord which is a huge upside.
The reason I've gone for more mb removal is that we just can not keep up with the better aggro decks, to me this means we need to take a slight more tempo approach to things. And flexible answers and solid hate ears seem to be they way to go. (I've been so impressed by teeg I'm honestly tempted to try 1/2 mb as when he's good he's game winning and a 2/2 for 2 isn't half bad anyway.
The reason I've go 12 fetches.
Basically it helps make narnam more consistent and means I can thin the deck pretty consistently (three fetches by turn three means 6 lands out of the deck which a pretty big change. I could be convinced to go 11 and 3 horizon but horizon can be pretty life intesive.
I will point out that Rhona's is amazing in drawn out control games and in matches like jund and deathshadow as it means mid game if they don't have instant speed removal you have a haste 5/5 with deathtouch and indestructible, and you can Ranor anything that they don't kill. Try viewing it more like a vehicle and less like a creature. As I've found it plays much more like that than a creture most of the time.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
4x Dryad Militant
4x Experiment One
4x Narnam Renegade
4x Avatar of the Resolute
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Strangleroot Geist
4x Steel Leaf Champion
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
Enchantment (2)
2x Rancor
Instant (10)
3x Aspect of Hydra
3x Blossoming Defense
3x Dromoka's Command
1x Selesnya Charm
4x Forest
2x Horizon Canopy
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Temple Garden
1x Treetop Village
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of Autumn
3x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
1x Rest in Peace
1x Selesnya Charm
1x Stony Silence
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
notes
Selesnya Charm is has become stronger and stronger as a removal card with the rise of phoenix and and the drop of humans, hence 2 in the 75
Rhonas the Indomitable and hooting mandrills are much less good than they where but they are still a strong option in a deathshadow and control heavy meta.
scooze, has been feeling slower and slower, hence the down to 2 mb and a rest in peace in its sb slot. but militant has become better and better in the meta so not all bad
at the moment im finding Blossoming Defense to be a stronger option than vines and vines ability to target our opponents stuff doesn't matter to much and the 1 mana for both the hexproof and the pump is very relevant , and i'm running 1 Dromoka's Command in a vines/defence slot as burn based removal is becoming more and more the norm,
1 Treetop Village. i've come to the conclusion that in a w splash build, the fetch requirements and teeg in sb helping stop or stall most board wipes 1 is all that's needed in the 75 (and all there is room for)
flexy slot/ undecided
Thrun, the Last Troll as he's become much worse now the most common mass removal spells i find are damnation and terminus. so may replace him with guttural Response
on another note has anyones tested a red splash with rhythm of the wild yet? as i would be interested how much the haste made up for taking turn 3 off and how much the creatures can't be countered clause matters in a aggro deck without caven.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
this is something i tried for a while, i found that yes its solid against burn but its not that great against much else at the moment (maybe jund) but that about it.
for phoenix scooze and militants are the most effective way to win. also having well timed removal is critical for drakes and things, the reason finks isn't as good is that they don't care about you having it on the field as 2 life is nothing and they don't need to kill it to win. the decks is feeling like it need another reach creature (agree with the comment above it may be worth revisiting Kraul Harpooner with phoenix and spirits so prevalent in the meta)
i've been struggling with the phoenix matchup and with the w splash im able to have dromkas commands, path and rest in peace in my 75. it basically comes down to luck and a race with them and it's one we normally loose.
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR
Competitive Decks
Devotion to the Lash B ----
Monkey Conservation WUGR ---- Dragon WorshipR