Yeah, Unmake really is unplayable outside of the rare full mono coloured decks and W/B. It's not really required with such a strict mana-cost for an effect that black can functionally provide at B2 mana. Plus both white and black are loaded with premium removal at the 2cc anyway. The creatures in the WB section are far better and more unique.
Plus, there is no point forcing a hybrid section until we have all the pieces for it.
God damn, I hate the lack of common spoilers during spoiler season, I understand why they do it, but it's still painful waiting for all the awesome commons to all show up together at the end in one big bunch. It also makes writing set reviews a lot harder as there is a lot less time to properly think at the time and a lot of potentially incorrect snap judgement calls have to be made.
Still what card do you guys think you going to cut for Rakdos Shred-Freak in a 3 card section and also in a 2 card B/R section, because in my opinion it has to be right running him as a 2/1 2cc haster brings so much to the B/R decks out there with a super 2 drop.
5oul Crusher: do u have that page off-hand? I enjoy reading their backpeddling often, so if you can give me a link I would appreciate it
Here you go.
"Hmm. I don't think we are. After all, there are all kinds of spells that we would never print nowadays that ran rampant in old environments, such as Compulsive Research, Force Spike, Remand, 'Signets,' etc."
Selesnya Sanctuary, on the other hand, is extremely powerful. It acts as two lands in one, so it was more than powerful enough to play even in decks that are playing only one of its two colors. This means that smart drafters were willing to take it extremely early and without knowing that they were playing both of those colors yet. If anyone who is playing either green or white is willing to snipe a Selesnya Sanctuary, there's no guarantee that the person who is legitimately playing both of those colors will be able to fix his or her mana with it. I think Ravnica Draft might have worked better if these lands were weak enough that they actually made it to people who were sure that they were playing both colors before taking them.
And in this one Tom talks about old limited formats. One in particular, he talks about how the mana fixing was drafted off colour as ramp or something else which made it hard to construct 3-coloured deck for exactly the reasons stated abouve. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/89
There are also a lot of other articles where they talk how both signets and Karoos were mistakes.
----------------------------------
Personally in pauper Karoos aren't so much of offenders for these limited offences as other picks tend to dwarf them in terms of power, but they are still something I want to remove in the loooong term when we hit the critical mass of lands for colour fixing.
Signets how ever are not needed and create drafting colour imbalances. Hence why in my cube I make a lot more green based control with ramp rather than this. Also there are still the mana rocks out there which are good because of their small number and the fact that most are slightly worse than their green equivalents.
Quick Question: Should we be posting SCD's here or in the main thread for our Pauper cards? (I'd like to get a quci discusion going for Rakdos Shred Freak and Rootborn Defences)
All pauper related talk belongs here as it would just get lost in the rest of the talk in other thread.
On Rakdos Shred-Freak I like him more that Blightning in the B/R section which should say a lot about the power of that card. AKA run it, and staple it in. Rootborn Defences on the other hand is cute but not worth it unless you are reliably copying tokens with 2 power or more, which translates to not worth it in cube.
R&D really hate anything that even slightly defiles the colour pie. And in their learned opinion Signets provide too much ramping and mana fixing to non-green colours than R&D would like. Also they don't like Karoos because they are lands that generate CA just by entering the battlefield and are often taken off colour just for that rather than their colour fixing properties which they where designed for.
Had the first proper run of my cube tonight, and it was a blast. Only six people, I drafted Jund aggro when I should have committed to any two of those colours, so I ended up losing two of my matches. Still, the response was incredibly positive, with the only real complaint being that there was too much manafixing going round, something that I feel could be changed with smaller boosters.
What size booster do you recommend for 6 people? I vaguely remember seeing someone say 12, but that could be my brain inventing stuff.
As for the Gate question... I probably won't run them. I'm mostly going on a gut feeling here, but they just don't feel like they do enough.
Dragonlover
WHAT!? GUILDGATES ARE THE BEST DUALS WE'VE BEEN GIVEN IN EVER! NOT TO RUN THEM IS SACRILEGE.
The only reason people would feel that there is too much fixing is because they aren't drafting it high enough. Mana-fixing is key to making a good deck, adding more power and consistency to literally everything. Drafting mana-fixing isn't always the obviously right move, but there is a lot of hidden power in them that you don't often notice. Not landing spells on curve from colour screw losses games and is easily prevented.
I can't understand why people are actually thinking about cutting bounce lands. Not only do I rank them just under the Gates for mana fixing, but I think it's a terrible idea to be cutting mana fixing lands when we have so few at our disposal. My rankings for mana fixing are as follows:
If I end up cutting any mana fixing at all, it will be signets, because those take up an actual card slot vs. a land slot, and that's really important, imo. I've found that it's hard enough as is to make cuts when drafting my cube vs. more powerful cubes because more picks are spent on nonland cards since there are so few nonbasics in the cube.
I don't like bouncelands for the same reason R&D don't like them, but I'd never dream of cutting them. They are far too good, and mana fixing lands are far to valuable for us to cut any.
No one should be cutting any lands at this point. Not even Panoramas, which are currently the worst of the land section mana fixers played. We'll need at least another set or 2 of good mana fixers to even dream about that.
Mind Games don't look that bad at al, but for what it does it is easily replaced by superior effects such as Capsize and Flood as mentioned.
But even after that I feel that the cantrapping bounce spells such as Into the Roil and Repulse out do it by providing effects that are more powerful, which the ability to press for tempo advantage and they have to lock up their mana for another turn which you cast another on curve threat, or tempo spell. It is too much to lock up 4 mana each turn to lock out one card. Ultimately I wouldn't run it, as the effect is too costly to be effective
Also I have the feeling that people here are under-rating the borderposts. Those things function like guildgates 96% of the time. Only occasionally they die to artifact removal, but the ability to well fix your mana far over weighs any of their draw backs. Fixing your mana is paramount to winning. Every non-monocoloured deck in cube could be improved with more mana fixing, so run them!
I also feel that Undead Revealer is good enough for cube, but it is in tight compition in the 3cc slot. Among the CA generating creatures and the 3 power evasion dudes, it is just below them, but after those cards I feel it is the next best thing. A 3/4 is huge in black for 3 mana, and the sure the can't block Unleased mode is better play, but even if non-counter state isn't bad as options are far better than none at all! I feel he is good enough to be tested out in people's cubes to see how relevant the 4 toughess is. Admittedly he dodges a decent amount of both black and red removal, being both black and out of bolt range, which is definitely a big plus.
In terms of fixing rather than power, the rankings for mana fixing go like this:
1. Guildgates - Just plain ETB duels, which are super good. They are going to be stapled in.
2. Borderposts - These play almost exactly like regular dual, slightly more of a liablilty as they require having a basic, which can occasionally lead to dead hands. Also will occasionally ramp, but isn't often relevant.
3. Panoramas - Might be slow but allow for 3 way fixing, and also are more flexible in which beck they can go into. These are going to stick around for quite a which despite being clunky.
4. Signets - They filter you mana into on-colours, but are slow to come online and 2 mana clumps can often be awkward. Are more often drafted for their ramping capabilities rather than mana fixing which encroaches on green territory, and encourage control decks, which is the reason I don't run them. I prefer the colourless mana rocks for that job. Also they aren't lands and actually take up slots in decks.
5. Bouncelands - Are a little slow a fixing mana, and give chunky clumps of mana. They do have the advantage of un-mulliganing you which allows for more keepable hands, abide slower and generating CA. Sometimes drafted off colour for those reasons and are also better in control, not aggro. Not fussed with them, but it would take a couple of new good land cycles before I'd consider kicking them out, although they are definitely powerful enough.
Just remember this is based off mana fixing rather than power. Also doesn't include the omni-fixing lands like Rupture Spire and Evolving Wilds.
Okay, stay calm guys and don't do anything stupid like cut the borderposts. Just because we finally get actual duals doesn't mean we need to cut their functional artifact cousins just because they don't come in the enemy flavour.
Also their isn't the dramatic need to cut the panoramas either. Sure they might not be optimum, but they do their job fine in not 1 but 3 different colour combinations. We need all the colour fixing we can get currently without doing anything rash.
I still hold my stance against Signets, which is not to run them, but that is a personal choice not to give colours outside green too much mana ramp.
My current stance with a hybrid section is that is a good idea, but only when we have enough cubables to have a section for each colour. Until that point I'm happy to count them in Multicoloured, even though I would prefer that section to be reserved for cards that force you to play both colours.
The 0/2 defender that fetches gates looks pretty bad for pauper. It has almost no board presence other than fog'ing a creature once. And it doesn't even ramp by just putting the card into your hand. The Borderland Ranger and stuff are good because a 2/2 actually has a decent board presence, which this card does not.
Rakdos Shred-Freak looks amazing by filling another important hole in the 2cc drop for both red and black. Pretty much a must play. It will function a lot like Goblin Patrol, which is good by the way, and is better in the last game.
-----------------------------------
Leonin Skyhunter is hands down better Rubin. It's still a decent play on the 3 drop.
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That Scorpion is amazing by the way. Scavange is such a powerful keyword in the world of pauper, and it allows you to be able to trade upwards with Deathtouch. So good!
-------------------------------
B/R seems to be the dominant force in my cube.
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@Catullo: In 270 you want to be running about 20 multicoloured excluding hybrids.
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At this rate Ravinica is shaping up to be a pretty good set for us, and I haven't even mentioned the mana-fixers which we were sorely missing. It's going to be super awesome!
It might be just because I've only Winston'd so far, but I've not used Tortured Existence yet even when it's come up. Does it only really shine when you do a proper draft?
Dragonlover
If you put the right cards with it, it can be the best card in the deck by a long shot. It rocks with any cycling abilities and creatures with abilities that net card advantage and Blastoderm. It allows you to constantly keep on turning your overly expensive cards into low curve treats, then turn any cheap chump in the late game into your best card. Plus there are ways of abusing that card to gain absurd card advantage. You'll learn how good it is the first time you use Tortured Existence is conjunction with Mulldrifter or Krosan Tusker.
It's a build-around-me card so it is probably not the greatest thing in Wilson, where your less likely to get all the creature components to make that deck function properly.
I personally would be making room for Okiba-Gang Shinobi. That guy is just so good with all those ETB abilities floating around. I'd cut Tortured Existence. With that amount of recursion running around it feels more like a dead card as there will not be anything in the grave to do those cool tricks with.
Deprive - I'm not really sure how good that card is. It looks testable and is another hard counter which is always good. It's better in control than Arcane Denial, but worse in aggro, and tempo. Befoul - Not really good enough. It's a over priced kill spell with a sometimes good second mode. Black already has an excess of straight up kill spells. Unlike red and the ability to hit artifacts is huge on Aftershock. This doesn't seem good enough. Infernal Harvest - This as it can completely wipe your opponents board. But not being able to hit players hurts, and bouncing lands is a big draw back although some what negated by the late game nature of the card. Also I don't like how this card forces mono-black, which isn't so bad considering how many mono-black cards there already are in cube. Adder-Staff Boggart Sub-par. I would only run this in a bigger cube. Goblin Furrier 2/2 vanillas aren't really where you want to be heading. Goblin Skycutter With the removal spell option this card looks good. I need to get one. Meteor Shower This card is good. This is a card of several modes. First is the 1 mana ping mode which is useful to be able to do, but should never be the default. Then the 3 mana Forked Bolt, which works out to the 2-1 sometimes. After that is the 5 mana Arc Lightning, then 7 mana Pyrotechinics. Then slightly better if you have way too much mana floating around. It's really good at providing varying 2-1 creature removal. It's just bad at going for the face. It's always going to be expensive but the flexible nature makes it really good in control and midrange. Devoted Druid This brings up the question of what you are ramping into. But still is good none-the-less. Just not for tight cubes. Crypt Ripper The extra point of P/T is huge and makes it so much less vulnerable to all the pinger action. Also haste is a really powerful keyword. Rhystic Lightning I like to hold onto my burn spells for face usage. This doesn't let me do that. Playable, but not the best option.
Not all that much. I regularly cut LD from my MDs and may cut some in the future.
I actually have recently been finding that LD are not quite good enough when people are running good mana bases and not being too greedy like playing 16-15 lands when they need to hit their second colour regularly.
But on the other hand I really feel it is super important put more diversity into red's spell section. It really doesn't feel healthy just having so many burn spells with all the same function, just slightly different numbers. Of course there is a lot of variation between some of the burn spells with the X-spells, 2-for-1 spells, high damage out put and the cheap ol' effective ones. Cards like Lava Dart and Brimstone Volley which are evaluated differently in different decks are good for the health of that section.
But it's equally important to not include any red spells which are not really ever going to be ran over a good old fashioned burn spell, eg, straight up cut over Volcanic Hammer in the targeted archetype.
I'm not sure whether Smash to Smithereens really counts as a burn spell. I threw it into that list anyway since its primary function is artifact destruction. The Lava Spike effect is just gravy.
@TheTribeAwaitsYou:
With all that errata you're throwing around, you may be better off just printing a custom cube.
No, burn in the cubing sense of the word is the stuff that hits creatures, aka, creature removal. Smash to Smithereens is as much of a burn spell as Blightning in the regards that it's not.
Also more people should be running Faithless Looting that card is so good and flexible, even if it's not for all the aggro decks. It also adds some much needed variety over the monotone burn spell flavour.
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Yeah, Unmake really is unplayable outside of the rare full mono coloured decks and W/B. It's not really required with such a strict mana-cost for an effect that black can functionally provide at B2 mana. Plus both white and black are loaded with premium removal at the 2cc anyway. The creatures in the WB section are far better and more unique.
Plus, there is no point forcing a hybrid section until we have all the pieces for it.
Still what card do you guys think you going to cut for Rakdos Shred-Freak in a 3 card section and also in a 2 card B/R section, because in my opinion it has to be right running him as a 2/1 2cc haster brings so much to the B/R decks out there with a super 2 drop.
Here you go.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/191
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/139
And in this one Tom talks about old limited formats. One in particular, he talks about how the mana fixing was drafted off colour as ramp or something else which made it hard to construct 3-coloured deck for exactly the reasons stated abouve.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/89
There are also a lot of other articles where they talk how both signets and Karoos were mistakes.
----------------------------------
Personally in pauper Karoos aren't so much of offenders for these limited offences as other picks tend to dwarf them in terms of power, but they are still something I want to remove in the loooong term when we hit the critical mass of lands for colour fixing.
Signets how ever are not needed and create drafting colour imbalances. Hence why in my cube I make a lot more green based control with ramp rather than this. Also there are still the mana rocks out there which are good because of their small number and the fact that most are slightly worse than their green equivalents.
-------------------------------------
All pauper related talk belongs here as it would just get lost in the rest of the talk in other thread.
On Rakdos Shred-Freak I like him more that Blightning in the B/R section which should say a lot about the power of that card. AKA run it, and staple it in. Rootborn Defences on the other hand is cute but not worth it unless you are reliably copying tokens with 2 power or more, which translates to not worth it in cube.
R&D really hate anything that even slightly defiles the colour pie. And in their learned opinion Signets provide too much ramping and mana fixing to non-green colours than R&D would like. Also they don't like Karoos because they are lands that generate CA just by entering the battlefield and are often taken off colour just for that rather than their colour fixing properties which they where designed for.
WHAT!? GUILDGATES ARE THE BEST DUALS WE'VE BEEN GIVEN IN EVER! NOT TO RUN THEM IS SACRILEGE.
The only reason people would feel that there is too much fixing is because they aren't drafting it high enough. Mana-fixing is key to making a good deck, adding more power and consistency to literally everything. Drafting mana-fixing isn't always the obviously right move, but there is a lot of hidden power in them that you don't often notice. Not landing spells on curve from colour screw losses games and is easily prevented.
I don't like bouncelands for the same reason R&D don't like them, but I'd never dream of cutting them. They are far too good, and mana fixing lands are far to valuable for us to cut any.
No one should be cutting any lands at this point. Not even Panoramas, which are currently the worst of the land section mana fixers played. We'll need at least another set or 2 of good mana fixers to even dream about that.
But even after that I feel that the cantrapping bounce spells such as Into the Roil and Repulse out do it by providing effects that are more powerful, which the ability to press for tempo advantage and they have to lock up their mana for another turn which you cast another on curve threat, or tempo spell. It is too much to lock up 4 mana each turn to lock out one card. Ultimately I wouldn't run it, as the effect is too costly to be effective
Also I have the feeling that people here are under-rating the borderposts. Those things function like guildgates 96% of the time. Only occasionally they die to artifact removal, but the ability to well fix your mana far over weighs any of their draw backs. Fixing your mana is paramount to winning. Every non-monocoloured deck in cube could be improved with more mana fixing, so run them!
I also feel that Undead Revealer is good enough for cube, but it is in tight compition in the 3cc slot. Among the CA generating creatures and the 3 power evasion dudes, it is just below them, but after those cards I feel it is the next best thing. A 3/4 is huge in black for 3 mana, and the sure the can't block Unleased mode is better play, but even if non-counter state isn't bad as options are far better than none at all! I feel he is good enough to be tested out in people's cubes to see how relevant the 4 toughess is. Admittedly he dodges a decent amount of both black and red removal, being both black and out of bolt range, which is definitely a big plus.
1. Guildgates - Just plain ETB duels, which are super good. They are going to be stapled in.
2. Borderposts - These play almost exactly like regular dual, slightly more of a liablilty as they require having a basic, which can occasionally lead to dead hands. Also will occasionally ramp, but isn't often relevant.
3. Panoramas - Might be slow but allow for 3 way fixing, and also are more flexible in which beck they can go into. These are going to stick around for quite a which despite being clunky.
4. Signets - They filter you mana into on-colours, but are slow to come online and 2 mana clumps can often be awkward. Are more often drafted for their ramping capabilities rather than mana fixing which encroaches on green territory, and encourage control decks, which is the reason I don't run them. I prefer the colourless mana rocks for that job. Also they aren't lands and actually take up slots in decks.
5. Bouncelands - Are a little slow a fixing mana, and give chunky clumps of mana. They do have the advantage of un-mulliganing you which allows for more keepable hands, abide slower and generating CA. Sometimes drafted off colour for those reasons and are also better in control, not aggro. Not fussed with them, but it would take a couple of new good land cycles before I'd consider kicking them out, although they are definitely powerful enough.
Just remember this is based off mana fixing rather than power. Also doesn't include the omni-fixing lands like Rupture Spire and Evolving Wilds.
Also their isn't the dramatic need to cut the panoramas either. Sure they might not be optimum, but they do their job fine in not 1 but 3 different colour combinations. We need all the colour fixing we can get currently without doing anything rash.
I still hold my stance against Signets, which is not to run them, but that is a personal choice not to give colours outside green too much mana ramp.
My current stance with a hybrid section is that is a good idea, but only when we have enough cubables to have a section for each colour. Until that point I'm happy to count them in Multicoloured, even though I would prefer that section to be reserved for cards that force you to play both colours.
Rakdos Shred-Freak looks amazing by filling another important hole in the 2cc drop for both red and black. Pretty much a must play. It will function a lot like Goblin Patrol, which is good by the way, and is better in the last game.
-----------------------------------
Leonin Skyhunter is hands down better Rubin. It's still a decent play on the 3 drop.
------------------------------------------
That Scorpion is amazing by the way. Scavange is such a powerful keyword in the world of pauper, and it allows you to be able to trade upwards with Deathtouch. So good!
-------------------------------
B/R seems to be the dominant force in my cube.
------------------------------
@Catullo: In 270 you want to be running about 20 multicoloured excluding hybrids.
------------------------------------
At this rate Ravinica is shaping up to be a pretty good set for us, and I haven't even mentioned the mana-fixers which we were sorely missing. It's going to be super awesome!
If you put the right cards with it, it can be the best card in the deck by a long shot. It rocks with any cycling abilities and creatures with abilities that net card advantage and Blastoderm. It allows you to constantly keep on turning your overly expensive cards into low curve treats, then turn any cheap chump in the late game into your best card. Plus there are ways of abusing that card to gain absurd card advantage. You'll learn how good it is the first time you use Tortured Existence is conjunction with Mulldrifter or Krosan Tusker.
It's a build-around-me card so it is probably not the greatest thing in Wilson, where your less likely to get all the creature components to make that deck function properly.
Befoul - Not really good enough. It's a over priced kill spell with a sometimes good second mode. Black already has an excess of straight up kill spells. Unlike red and the ability to hit artifacts is huge on Aftershock. This doesn't seem good enough.
Infernal Harvest - This as it can completely wipe your opponents board. But not being able to hit players hurts, and bouncing lands is a big draw back although some what negated by the late game nature of the card. Also I don't like how this card forces mono-black, which isn't so bad considering how many mono-black cards there already are in cube.
Adder-Staff Boggart Sub-par. I would only run this in a bigger cube.
Goblin Furrier 2/2 vanillas aren't really where you want to be heading.
Goblin Skycutter With the removal spell option this card looks good. I need to get one.
Meteor Shower This card is good. This is a card of several modes. First is the 1 mana ping mode which is useful to be able to do, but should never be the default. Then the 3 mana Forked Bolt, which works out to the 2-1 sometimes. After that is the 5 mana Arc Lightning, then 7 mana Pyrotechinics. Then slightly better if you have way too much mana floating around. It's really good at providing varying 2-1 creature removal. It's just bad at going for the face. It's always going to be expensive but the flexible nature makes it really good in control and midrange.
Devoted Druid This brings up the question of what you are ramping into. But still is good none-the-less. Just not for tight cubes.
Crypt Ripper The extra point of P/T is huge and makes it so much less vulnerable to all the pinger action. Also haste is a really powerful keyword.
Rhystic Lightning I like to hold onto my burn spells for face usage. This doesn't let me do that. Playable, but not the best option.
It's good enough but cutable. If you list isn't a tight one, then it's definitely worth keeping in.
I actually have recently been finding that LD are not quite good enough when people are running good mana bases and not being too greedy like playing 16-15 lands when they need to hit their second colour regularly.
But on the other hand I really feel it is super important put more diversity into red's spell section. It really doesn't feel healthy just having so many burn spells with all the same function, just slightly different numbers. Of course there is a lot of variation between some of the burn spells with the X-spells, 2-for-1 spells, high damage out put and the cheap ol' effective ones. Cards like Lava Dart and Brimstone Volley which are evaluated differently in different decks are good for the health of that section.
But it's equally important to not include any red spells which are not really ever going to be ran over a good old fashioned burn spell, eg, straight up cut over Volcanic Hammer in the targeted archetype.
My worst fears have been realised.
No, burn in the cubing sense of the word is the stuff that hits creatures, aka, creature removal. Smash to Smithereens is as much of a burn spell as Blightning in the regards that it's not.
Also more people should be running Faithless Looting that card is so good and flexible, even if it's not for all the aggro decks. It also adds some much needed variety over the monotone burn spell flavour.