Hello guys! does it ever take to you to side out some copies of blood moon against some decks that suffer it a lot (as for example Jund) just cause you know they will be playing around it and so play slower?
Short answer - no. Good card is good card.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
For anybody interested; Jack Kiefer's GP Phoenix list, or something close to it. He posted it on his Twitter apparently. On my phone still so no screenshot available sorry, I wrote it up and created a list using TopDecked so just click the link.
Surprise? This deck exists for 2 years almost with no changes, I think everyone at least have heard about it.
Don't worry mate I know the deck has been around for a while... I played the Archetype when it was called R/G land destruction, I remember buying my full playset of Avalanche Riders and Argothian Wurms when they were first released in Urza Block!
Yes Ponza has existed in modern for a while. But a 6 months ago if you led with Arbor Elf most people thought a) WTF? Or B) Tooth and Nail.
It is only in the last say 2 months that you would sit down at a competative modern event and seriously look at your game 1 hand and say 'How weak am I to Stone Rain?'
Now the question is legit.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
It makes me feel both good and bad that Ponza is doing so well. I've been playing the deck for the better part of 2 years now and have gotten my share of success with it. It's kind of nice that it's being recognized as a genuine threat...however, it makes me sad because there are more and more players on the archetype and so it's slowly becoming less of an underdog. And then there will be less salt for all of us...
I feel you! I was hoping my deck choice for GP Sydney was going to take everybody by surprise, but I think most of my opponents will know what's up nowadays when I go arbor elf or sprawl then go
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Hi guys! what do you think of the absence of Stormbreath Dragon in this two last winning lists??? I played some games and it is such a good win condition for ponza deck!
This is one that I debated for a long time once BBE was un-banned. I love Stormbreath to death. I have won so many games with the thing that it had become somewhat synonymous for me to the Archetype.
Firstly Path to Exile could have been perceived by the deckbuilders as less played or less of a problem. I'm not sure I would agree with that, but it's a possible reason. Then there are some inherent qualities about the card itself.
Stormys' weaknesses are on defense. A 4/4 Flying Pro White creature on block duty when your life total is under threat is ... fine. But for 5 mana the effect it has when behind or precarious on board presence is usually negligible. At least Titan lets you Arc Lightning some dudes (not to mention being 6/6).
Sure you may remember that moment where Stormy hero-blocks a Mantis Riser, but Stormy is only worth the investment if you can get him into the red zone EVERY turn.
This used not to be much of an issue for a build like Monster Ponza, since you usually had a great, wide board presence which your Dragon could fly straight over for the win. Now we play 3/2 creature for 4 mana that may or may not affect the board in a meaningful way from behind. We used to run a combination of Huntmaster, Colossus, P&K, Thrun, Baloth, etc. All of them defensive powerhouses in respective match-ups. We couuld AFFORD to simply let dragon do his thing.
BBE and Stormbreath are a weak defensive unit without strong support. So if, in the deckbuilding process you decide this liability affects too many games, you have two paths to take.
A) Drop Stormbreath
B) Re-tune main-deck to optimise Stormbreath (set him free for maximum beat downs)
Recent lists have simply been adopting approach A. This is the most obvious, or simple way to go.
The dragon HAS got synergy with the word HASTE though. Both BBE and Stormy threaten life totals quickly. And considering the Dragons raw power there has to be a build that lets Stormy do his thing with freedom again. I still run 1, and it's still been frickin Bae. But I've been noticing myself wishing for it less and less as a topdeck.
TLDR: A perception that path is less prevalent. Stormbreath is a weak defensive investment for 5 mana, and does not affect the board enough from behind. This, allied to the loss of our resilient 4-drops to accommodate BBE.
I understand your points. Those lists dropped the 2 dragons for a third titan and Pia and Kiran. Does this card worth the main deck spot? I started my list from the SCG one adding 2 dragons and an additional coursier (love this deck with BBE) dropping 1 titan and the two PKN.
P&K is absolutely worth a spot. She affects almost every board state she is played onto. She also has great synergy with the rest of the deck, most notably Tireless Tracker and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar.
Problem is that all the cards you name are great - courser, p&k, Stormbreath, titan. We all probably have different opinions on which of those is "un-droppable". Run with what you feel, take notes for the next (x) amount of matches, tune if you feel you need to. The most important part is to clearly realise what the strengths and weaknesses of each card.
P&K gives you 3 bodies, flying blockers, evasive attackers and a 4-power clock, all while allowing you to interact with the board and turn your clues into Shocks. It might also be worth noting how much better Nissa VoZ is with P&K.
She is play that guarantees a certain return on imvestment and relevance. Low variance, value AGAINST removal, value AS A SOURCE of removal, and a clock!
I don't blame you for running 2 Courser, or wanting 3 titans. Or running 2 Stormbreath. If I could run 4 of each I would.
For what it's worth, my current list.
Ponza (R/G): BBE / 8 Rain
Maindeck (60)
4 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Inferno Titan
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Shatterstorm
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Trinisphere
1 Choke
Hi guys! what do you think of the absence of Stormbreath Dragon in this two last winning lists??? I played some games and it is such a good win condition for ponza deck!
This is one that I debated for a long time once BBE was un-banned. I love Stormbreath to death. I have won so many games with the thing that it had become somewhat synonymous for me to the Archetype.
Firstly Path to Exile could have been perceived by the deckbuilders as less played or less of a problem. I'm not sure I would agree with that, but it's a possible reason. Then there are some inherent qualities about the card itself.
Stormys' weaknesses are on defense. A 4/4 Flying Pro White creature on block duty when your life total is under threat is ... fine. But for 5 mana the effect it has when behind or precarious on board presence is usually negligible. At least Titan lets you Arc Lightning some dudes (not to mention being 6/6).
Sure you may remember that moment where Stormy hero-blocks a Mantis Riser, but Stormy is only worth the investment if you can get him into the red zone EVERY turn.
This used not to be much of an issue for a build like Monster Ponza, since you usually had a great, wide board presence which your Dragon could fly straight over for the win. Now we play 3/2 creature for 4 mana that may or may not affect the board in a meaningful way from behind. We used to run a combination of Huntmaster, Colossus, P&K, Thrun, Baloth, etc. All of them defensive powerhouses in respective match-ups. We couuld AFFORD to simply let dragon do his thing.
BBE and Stormbreath are a weak defensive unit without strong support. So if, in the deckbuilding process you decide this liability affects too many games, you have two paths to take.
A) Drop Stormbreath
B) Re-tune main-deck to optimise Stormbreath (set him free for maximum beat downs)
Recent lists have simply been adopting approach A. This is the most obvious, or simple way to go.
The dragon HAS got synergy with the word HASTE though. Both BBE and Stormy threaten life totals quickly. And considering the Dragons raw power there has to be a build that lets Stormy do his thing with freedom again. I still run 1, and it's still been frickin Bae. But I've been noticing myself wishing for it less and less as a topdeck.
TLDR: A perception that path is less prevalent. Stormbreath is a weak defensive investment for 5 mana, and does not affect the board enough from behind. This, allied to the loss of our resilient 4-drops to accommodate BBE.
Hazoret is neither correct nor incorrect. And there is no need to be pompous, nor call anybody names on this forum please.
On the other side of the equation - when cards and builds have results, calling cards used in those builds 'rubbish' or belittling those choices seems pretty narrow minded as well. For example - Kessig Wolf Run and Birds of Paradise.
It is correct to say that Hazoret has no results, because it is true.
Whether you agree with the results or not is up to the individual, and is part of the deck tuning process. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind the forum that we are here to learn from each other and bounce ideas off of each other, not force others into an education in what we subjectively deem correct.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Tron sometimes has been a problem. Moon is not garantee of victory.
Since they reach 6 lands wurmcoil is almost GG. We don't have path to exile to handle it.
I'm not sure I've ever seen my tron opponent with 6 lands, I can see it happening once in a blue moon if you keep a no-threat hand and brick for another 10 turns.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
It's not 'correct' to play Haz but there are good things she brings to the table.
And Kessig Wolf Run is not a terrible card, it's a great card that isn't great with Blood Moon. We happen to run 4 Blood Moons. When no moon is on the table it's just fine.
Colossus also dodges pretty much all non exile removal as well and trades favourably with the biggest Goyfs. Haz just chumps them.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Trinisphere is a 2-of in a SB of a deck with maybe 4 interaction spells in its 75. If you face a spell-based combo deck, that can win on Turn 3, do you really rely on all of 2 cards to stop them? Seems like super poor odds, to me.
Excuse me, but I have to point out that we play around 10-16 interactive cards MD.
Stone Rain, Stone Rain, Stone Rain, Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Molten Rain, Molten Rain, Blood Moon...
Haaaa.
On a more serious note he got a bit lucky against Storm in the finals. His opponent drew badly and didn't mulligan when he should have. I would be packing 3 Trini myself but, I have never won a large event.
Very happy with the result though.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Andrew Wolbers stated he would drop 1 inferno titan next time around. I would go -1 Titan +1 Dragon.
The lack of Acid Moss is not surprising. It's not really synergistic with BBE and let's be honest... Ponza didn't play more than 8 dedicated LD spells pre-BBE, going over 8 now that we have BBE doesn't make any sense. Acid Moss is the obvious cut that people still hold on to. Sure it is nice with tracker and sure it ramps to titan, but really... there are better things we can do with 4 mana, especially since the slot is crowded with BBE.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
Just fyi, Damping Sphere should not impact Utopia Sprawl. It is a triggered ability that does not use the stack, it does not make the land itself tap for more mana.
Correct
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
GBx / Jund, Burn, Goblins/ Zoo, Merfolk, 8 Rack, Humans.
Edit: also, more recently, Hollow One and MAYBE Mardu Pyro if I see LOTV
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Short answer - no. Good card is good card.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Ponza (R/G): Jack Kiefer - GP Phoenix
Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/cce81c11-229d-4ca3-8d52-3073059aa947
4 Primal Command, 2 Eternal Witness, 4 Bolts, 3 Birds.
Spicy AF. It's like the Command Loop green devotion lists blended with Ponza. Even in the sideboard he has Hornet Queen and Caldera Hellion!
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Don't worry mate I know the deck has been around for a while... I played the Archetype when it was called R/G land destruction, I remember buying my full playset of Avalanche Riders and Argothian Wurms when they were first released in Urza Block!
Yes Ponza has existed in modern for a while. But a 6 months ago if you led with Arbor Elf most people thought a) WTF? Or B) Tooth and Nail.
It is only in the last say 2 months that you would sit down at a competative modern event and seriously look at your game 1 hand and say 'How weak am I to Stone Rain?'
Now the question is legit.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I feel you! I was hoping my deck choice for GP Sydney was going to take everybody by surprise, but I think most of my opponents will know what's up nowadays when I go arbor elf or sprawl then go
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
So Ponza has won some large events recently and has done it against some pretty rough match-ups;
Dutch Open Series Winner (Kasper Zijl) - finals vs. Grixis Control
SGG Open Dallas Winner (Andrew Wolpert) - defeats E-Tron, Infect, Storm.
MKM Series Rome Winner (David Peretti) - defeats R/G Vengevine, Mono-Blue Living End, Temur Scapeshift.
MTGO Modern Challenge Winner (SLAYDFTW)- defeats Mardu Pyro, Ad Nauseam, Living End.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
P&K is absolutely worth a spot. She affects almost every board state she is played onto. She also has great synergy with the rest of the deck, most notably Tireless Tracker and Nissa, Voice of Zendikar.
Problem is that all the cards you name are great - courser, p&k, Stormbreath, titan. We all probably have different opinions on which of those is "un-droppable". Run with what you feel, take notes for the next (x) amount of matches, tune if you feel you need to. The most important part is to clearly realise what the strengths and weaknesses of each card.
P&K gives you 3 bodies, flying blockers, evasive attackers and a 4-power clock, all while allowing you to interact with the board and turn your clues into Shocks. It might also be worth noting how much better Nissa VoZ is with P&K.
She is play that guarantees a certain return on imvestment and relevance. Low variance, value AGAINST removal, value AS A SOURCE of removal, and a clock!
I don't blame you for running 2 Courser, or wanting 3 titans. Or running 2 Stormbreath. If I could run 4 of each I would.
For what it's worth, my current list.
Ponza (R/G): BBE / 8 Rain
Maindeck (60)
4 Arbor Elf
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Stormbreath Dragon
1 Inferno Titan
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Chandra, Flamecaller
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Molten Rain
4 Stone Rain
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Blood Moon
8 Forest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard (15)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Anger of the Gods
1 Slagstorm
1 Shatterstorm
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Sorcerous Spyglass
3 Trinisphere
1 Choke
Shared via TopDecked MTG https://www.topdecked.me/decks/e63594cf-d8b8-480f-9903-5ac1ca61f49f
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
This is one that I debated for a long time once BBE was un-banned. I love Stormbreath to death. I have won so many games with the thing that it had become somewhat synonymous for me to the Archetype.
Firstly Path to Exile could have been perceived by the deckbuilders as less played or less of a problem. I'm not sure I would agree with that, but it's a possible reason. Then there are some inherent qualities about the card itself.
Stormys' weaknesses are on defense. A 4/4 Flying Pro White creature on block duty when your life total is under threat is ... fine. But for 5 mana the effect it has when behind or precarious on board presence is usually negligible. At least Titan lets you Arc Lightning some dudes (not to mention being 6/6).
Sure you may remember that moment where Stormy hero-blocks a Mantis Riser, but Stormy is only worth the investment if you can get him into the red zone EVERY turn.
This used not to be much of an issue for a build like Monster Ponza, since you usually had a great, wide board presence which your Dragon could fly straight over for the win. Now we play 3/2 creature for 4 mana that may or may not affect the board in a meaningful way from behind. We used to run a combination of Huntmaster, Colossus, P&K, Thrun, Baloth, etc. All of them defensive powerhouses in respective match-ups. We couuld AFFORD to simply let dragon do his thing.
BBE and Stormbreath are a weak defensive unit without strong support. So if, in the deckbuilding process you decide this liability affects too many games, you have two paths to take.
A) Drop Stormbreath
B) Re-tune main-deck to optimise Stormbreath (set him free for maximum beat downs)
Recent lists have simply been adopting approach A. This is the most obvious, or simple way to go.
The dragon HAS got synergy with the word HASTE though. Both BBE and Stormy threaten life totals quickly. And considering the Dragons raw power there has to be a build that lets Stormy do his thing with freedom again. I still run 1, and it's still been frickin Bae. But I've been noticing myself wishing for it less and less as a topdeck.
TLDR: A perception that path is less prevalent. Stormbreath is a weak defensive investment for 5 mana, and does not affect the board enough from behind. This, allied to the loss of our resilient 4-drops to accommodate BBE.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
On the other side of the equation - when cards and builds have results, calling cards used in those builds 'rubbish' or belittling those choices seems pretty narrow minded as well. For example - Kessig Wolf Run and Birds of Paradise.
It is correct to say that Hazoret has no results, because it is true.
Whether you agree with the results or not is up to the individual, and is part of the deck tuning process. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind the forum that we are here to learn from each other and bounce ideas off of each other, not force others into an education in what we subjectively deem correct.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I'm not sure I've ever seen my tron opponent with 6 lands, I can see it happening once in a blue moon if you keep a no-threat hand and brick for another 10 turns.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
It's not 'correct' to play Haz but there are good things she brings to the table.
And Kessig Wolf Run is not a terrible card, it's a great card that isn't great with Blood Moon. We happen to run 4 Blood Moons. When no moon is on the table it's just fine.
Colossus also dodges pretty much all non exile removal as well and trades favourably with the biggest Goyfs. Haz just chumps them.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Excuse me, but I have to point out that we play around 10-16 interactive cards MD.
Stone Rain, Stone Rain, Stone Rain, Stone Rain, Molten Rain, Molten Rain, Molten Rain, Blood Moon...
Haaaa.
On a more serious note he got a bit lucky against Storm in the finals. His opponent drew badly and didn't mulligan when he should have. I would be packing 3 Trini myself but, I have never won a large event.
Very happy with the result though.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
The lack of Acid Moss is not surprising. It's not really synergistic with BBE and let's be honest... Ponza didn't play more than 8 dedicated LD spells pre-BBE, going over 8 now that we have BBE doesn't make any sense. Acid Moss is the obvious cut that people still hold on to. Sure it is nice with tracker and sure it ramps to titan, but really... there are better things we can do with 4 mana, especially since the slot is crowded with BBE.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Correct
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza