so of course everybody and his mother has noticed just how good Time Vault/Flame Fussilade is...The Brass Man Andy Probasco has even gone as far as calling it the best 2-card combo ever...
click the link to see what it does, the wording is too long...
anyhow you can tap vault over and over and over again, by simply untapping over and over again....this normally would mean that you skip your next X turns, however since you are dealing a damage each time you will never get to a next turn...
What im looking for are lists and ideas as to what style and such you all think this combo could fit into...Gifts shells seem to be a popular idea so far, it could already somewhat easily replace Belcher/Severance in Gifts.....
The idea is pretty simple play like stax, most of the time, but sometimes you will be able to play a turn one metal worker, and combo out with staff. Or alternately you can play your vault and sit on smokestack and spheres while your opponent lays there helpless and gets decked. Or finally if you draw into the combo you just lay the vault and play fusillade to win.
The original lodestone version never really took off, but it had promise. This version suports welders, and draw sevens, which makes going off with metalworker that much easier.
Alternately just take Andy's gifts list and replace severance-belcher with flame-vault. I've spoken with him and Ben on the win condition in gifts a few times before, and they could care less what they run. But the less mana intensive the two card combo the better. Why build a new deck around the combo when an existing combo-control deck was already built to accomodate it.
Why build it? Because there will undoubtably be differences in what needs to happen and what works best in each particular build....its also important to know which version will be the best version of any particular combo or whatever...
The mud combo deck isnt too bad, would you still consider any number of lodestone myr in there to use as another kill mechanism...
also have you considered Tangle Wire in smokestacks slot there and dropping the crucibles to make this more focused on the combo rather than a half stax half combo build...maybe something more like rivers affinity in amount of disruption and focus a little more on speed...
Seriously, as a second win condition. The original deck ran Time Vault + Lodestone Myr combo, and would attack with an infinite/infinite trampler. So i would run like 2 Lodestone Myr, because, as awkward as it seems, you usually kill with the Myr more than with the combo.
I hadn't really given the deck much thought at all to be honest. Sometimes things just spew from the unconsious mind ya know. I guess you could theoretically run tangle wire, but cutting smokestack is a big no-no. Smokies combo with time vault too. I'm not particularly into the deck all that much, but hyper mud is the reason I already own a playset of time vaults.
You could go mono red and add lodestones for more consistancy though. Then again, you wouldn't have access to the draw sevens that make comboing out with metalworker so easy.
I dunno if this is better than gifts, but it is more streamlined. It's more like goth slaver, but it wins when slaver would just be be mindslaving. Obviously there are no meta-game dependent bombs, like g-shaman, or echoing truth, etc. but there's no reason that you couldn't play with them. The biggest problem I see, is just like goth slaver, you've got very little flexibility in the MD. I do love the ak training wheels though.
This more like what you had in mind Lunar? Oh and obviously there should be a worthy tinker target in there like DSC or Titan. If you go for the whole combo at once you can intuition EOT for vault-flame-recoup, but you'll need a welder in play. They will give you the vault in hand, but for a measily ten mana (lol) you can play the vault, recoup the flame, and cast it. More than likely however you would assemble it a bit at a time.
The problem with this strategy isn't getting the Time Vault into play, as there are so many ways to get a single artifact to stick in Vintage that have already been proven. The problem area is getting not only getting the Flame Fusillade to resolve ... you have to get it to resolve while the Time Vault is in play.
To that end we may need more Fusillades than Time Vaults.
I like nastynate's start, especially with the Recoup which I think is a great addition to the deck.
I don't see the value of playing Snow-Covered Islands when we're not playing anything like Gifts or even Tainted Pact.
I think the mana base is going to need to be tweaked a bit in favor of more Red. The odds of playing both Black spells in the same turn, or even the same game, are pretty slim... but there will be a considerable number of games where you'll need to muster double-red to Recoup the Flame Fusillade. I could see the Underground Sea count going down to two, possibly even one, unless there's a plan for a heavy Black sideboard.
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i have attmepted this in many forms and it doesn't work very well.
the best you can do is tier 2 quality and that just won't cut it.
i tried it with relativly impressive results as MDG - tendrils and collosus win and + flam-vault win.
gifts for: vault, will, recoup, and flame.
also you can get lotus instead of any pieces.
the upside is that it wins now instead of the possibluity that they kill collosus and the down side is it is a little more mana intensive and is a MDG deck. =P
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First of all, snow covered lands are always good. Simply because they confuzzle an opponant when they don't serve a purpose, and they are better than basics when they do.
I would run less of both duels. You won't need red or black until you want to win, like Gifts. By the same amount, increase fetches. Field may hurt them, but they are still very good and give you flexibility. Sitting on them until you want to win is very good.
I would then add at least one of each of Colossus and Burning Wish. Tinker colossus is too strong of a win for any blue deck to ignore right now. Basically, if you have blue, fetches, and brainstorm, why aren't you playing tinker? Burning Wish allows you to put one fusilade board, so that you don't get it until you need it, and if you need something else you'll be fine.
Intuition-Ak is not a very good or efficient draw engine, and that has been established. I would drop that completely, increase tfk to a four of, and add mystical tutor, vampiric tutor, colossus, wish, and a pair of merchant scrolls in their stead.
How good are welders really? It seems they have no purpose in the deck except to protect the combo and as a "metagame" slot, as you said you didn't have. Imo, your not really using them to their full extent, and droping them for a rebuild, truth, and a pair of Gifts would be prety good. However, if their is a reason to play them that I am not seeing, by all means explain. Right now, to me at least, they have no real function other than weakening the mana base and being an anti-welder strategy. Imo, if welder is not being used proactivly, their are probably better options.
As for board, with the wish it would be something like this:
I've put together a deck list more in the vein of a Teir 1 Oath deck with a little bit of tweaking. The reasons for the addition of Black are the same as for the TWL's Oath of Druids 2005 deck found here http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9815.html
I like how the additions of Duress and Skeletal Scrying make this more a combo deck than a control oriented deck. I like the addition of Fire/Ice for the amazing utility of this card as well as Dead Welders! The problem i've found with the TWL Oath build is that it has nothing in the way of utility IF something makes it past your counters/duress. Fire/Ice helps you with Stax. The great thing about this combo is that you do not need to complete it in 1 turn. If you can get a Time Vault out there quickly, all you need to do is force through one Flame Fusillade to win. This is made much easier with Duress. I also find the Intuition/AK draw engine too mana intensive and out dated. Long live Skeletal Scrying!
final fortune could also be included. play it, lose that turn to the vault, then take another turn without the 'you lose the game' clause. also, it can be hardcasted normally to give that extra turn for the combo to go off.
tuturs and card draw are essential, so RU is the way to go with this. tinker, tutors, all broken mana producing artifacts, and ridiculous draw, then play it out like gifts combo, or controlling stax depending on whether or not you pack wills
You can and probably will usually make the vault in that set tinker instead I would think....
Wow this discussion is all over the board right now...but I am truly impressed with the variety of forms availible...
Basically how I see this getting the most use and best effect is in Brassmans Gifts lists replacing Severance/Belcher with Fussilade/Vault which is a cheaper and easier way to win after a gifts (it requires about 3 less mana usually to go off) it also does not signifigantly alter the plan and style of the deck in any way....
However since that is kinda obvious I was going for what you all thought might be the best way to get this combo to work...Fitting it into Oath or Tog style lists is certainly interesting and could work out as good as gifts and could with the proper work and tinkering be slightly faster (if not better it could be faster certainly)
Im not sure about the hyper mud lists...if the myr version wasnt good enough to break through, im not so sure that a list that needs a colored sorcery to resolve with the vault in play is the best method.
I do agree with binary though about the ratio of fusilade to vault...many lists ive seen run more vaults...this is in error...remember that fusilade is pretty decent on its own by being able to creat a wrecking ball for a turn against aggro, or little things like welder (heck late in the game one resolution of this could be enough damage to win...)
Also of note is the suggestion that this be used in a workshop aggro or even a stax deck as a way to deal final damage or even as a win condition...Im not so sure about this idea, but I could see it fitting in as a neat SB option in Shop Aggro as a finisher or board sweeper of sorts....
I've put together a deck list more in the vein of a Teir 1 Oath deck with a little bit of tweaking. The reasons for the addition of Black are the same as for the TWL's Oath of Druids 2005 deck found here http://www.starcitygames.com/php/news/article/9815.html
I like how the additions of Duress and Skeletal Scrying make this more a combo deck than a control oriented deck. I like the addition of Fire/Ice for the amazing utility of this card as well as Dead Welders! The problem i've found with the TWL Oath build is that it has nothing in the way of utility IF something makes it past your counters/duress. Fire/Ice helps you with Stax. The great thing about this combo is that you do not need to complete it in 1 turn. If you can get a Time Vault out there quickly, all you need to do is force through one Flame Fusillade to win. This is made much easier with Duress. I also find the Intuition/AK draw engine too mana intensive and out dated. Long live Skeletal Scrying!
I would add Mana Crypt instead of off color mox. You need the fast mana and life lose won't matter. To that I would also prefer Mana Vault and Ancient Tomb. With Pithing Needle there needs to be sideboard answers. Pithing Needle is a good reason to rotate fetch lands, have 2 or 3 different ones to fetch the same land so needle can't lock all 4 out. I love Skeletal Scrying too. Good deck start.
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first turn
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
This deck NEEDS bounce in it. With pithing needles and supression fields running all over the place, you really need to be able to get rid of that. I would recomend 2 echoing truths in place of drains. Also, with forces and misdirections in your deck, would vault be better than vampiric tutor? It usually only costs a few more mana, but, and esspecially with a two piece combo whos componants are a four-of, it can set up the entire combo single-handedly, or a defense (a stream of control elements, etc.). And its blue. Maybe in the place of one scrying or the vamp (although vamp is pretty good by itself). Also, you want the entire set of SoLoMoxen, crypt, vault, and maybe even the lowly petal. Oh, and add tinker colossus. Tinker is also a 5th vault, and alternate win conditions are sexy. Fire and ice is good and all, but are four necessary? I can't help but feel there are better options.
I like this deck start a lot, but it needs some work. Its combo that normal combo hate doesn't deal with.
+1 or +2 Echoing Truth needs to be in there...probably rather than 4xFire/ice and 3xSkeletal Scrying...
Id keep vampiric for sure and with tinker in the deck and good control and stuff probably also add +1 Mystical Tutor
So if I had that exact list and wanted to make it how I thought it would be better id go with...only thing im not sure about yet is the draw in it..I dont find myself having enough in the yard enough to fully utilize scrying....what do you guys think there...?
Somebody should make a post informing us as to how it's matchups fare. Based alone on what I can see it appears to me that Gifts would perform more consistently.
Somebody should make a post informing us as to how it's matchups fare. Based alone on what I can see it appears to me that Gifts would perform more consistently.
I'm inclined to agree. This deck is trying to perform almost exactly the same function as Severance/Belcher did... resolve a sorcery then use the activated ability of an artifact to win the game in one turn.
The subtle difference, of course, is that in S/B you didn't have to already have the Charbelcher in play when you resolved the Mana Severance.
However, this deck has the advantage of the artifact being cheaper both in casting and activation cost. Hardcasting everything in one turn and winning costs R5 instead of U8.
The only advantage I can see to the Stax approach would be if you're having trouble getting one-half of the combo to "stick." If you can get Time Vault out you can obliterate their board with Tangle + Smokestack; if you can get Fusillade but not Time Vault at least you have a bunch of permanents out.
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I think that belcher is better in gifts, though. If you draw vault in gifts, its dead. Belcher is never dead, and is removal until you come across that burning wish. My belcher has eaten many a welder off of drain mana. Vault is utterly useless pre-combo.
I remember when stax used to use vault without any combo. It was played exactly as you described. You get them low an perms and use it to keep it on their turn with wire and stax out.
The problem is that in stax, you don't need to win usually if you can resolve the combo, in gifts there are usually better options, and the devoted combo deck needs to prove itself better than dragon and tps. It does look like it has potential, but it needs some help first, imo.
Time Vault is the hotness in Gifts though because it allows you to most like combo off an entire turn earlier...the fewer mana means this deck just got a decent amount better than previous versions against something like Stax primarily...all gifts has to do is keep either field or welder off the board (which it should already be doing) and it gets a turn faster...not bad...
you are only running 1 vault which can be pitched to thirst for knowledge with no problem, and since it only costs 2 it is SUPER easy to replay off of yawgmoths will when you go off if its hit your hand at some point...hard casting it is easy easy and its another permanent against stax.
I think this combo deserves it's own Mana Drain based control deck. It can disrupt it's opponenet with Draisn and Duress's or kill on utrn 3. Then again a $tax build also sounds nice.
Round 1: Vs. Sensei Sensei w/ Green for something
Game 1: Colossus Rolls him over.
Game 2: I don't think he knew the combo or something, he gave me what I needed off a Gifts and a Flamed him.
Round 2: Vs. Control Slaver with a Gifts base.
Game 1: I get an early colossus turn 2 and win.
Game 2: He eventually wins with welderage.
Game 3: We run out of time and tie.
Round 3: Vs. Wu Tang Fish
Game 1: I Gifts with Believer in play (oops), and he eventually crushes me.
Game 2: It takes a while, but eventually when I am at about 4 life, I play fussilade of a lotus and drain mana with 11 permanents in play. Yay flamers!
Game 3: He gets a pair of early factories, and starts rolling me. I draw about 6 counters in a row and he gets no more mana, I evetually play gifts which gets double forced, and at 4 life the next turn I topdeck my next gifts, gifting up the vault win for the next turn. He draws a factory, and puts me at 1, but can't stop me from comboing out.
Round 4: Vs. Stax.
Game 1: I won somehow.
Game 2: He had a tanglewire in play, and I had vault in play, and fussilade in hand. On my turn, I stacked the tanglewire's ability, untapped vault, and tapped it to wire giving me enogh mana to win that turn.
Round 5: Vs. Stax
Game 1: I make a HUGE game mistake when I don't drain a tangle wire and can't make a leathel gifts. Later I make another mistake when I fetch and realize my 5th island had been stripped, fizzling my combo. Eventually He kills me with pithed welders.
Game 2: I get a nosebleed, and we get a 3 minute extention, but I can't win before time is called and I loose.
Round 6: Vs. TempoFiend
Game 1: I win off random early colossus.
Game 2: He stripps me of my wins with a thief.
Game 3: I make the stupidest play ever when I dredge back Darkblast putting a pyroclasm and an explostives into my yard. That would have won me the game...
Round 7: Vs. Solitary
Game 1: I pith bazaar and win with colossus.
Game 2: He combos off with a bunch of stuff.
Game 3: I pith bazaar and eventually win with the combo.
Comments: That one misplay against Stax cost me the tournament. Remember to think about what cards do, and what draining them will do (aka, leathel gifts).
I think I need another darkbast, as I only drew it when I didn't need it. I never used Plague, but maybe I'm just playing it wrong. I'm thinking, -2 Plauge, +1 Darkblast (definitly better than lava dart), +1 ?. Maybe a Merchant scroll, as I found myself Wishing up a boarded out scroll quite often.
The Flamer combo is so much beter than charbelcher because it costs so much less, and fussilade, unlike severence, has other options. Fussilade wins without vault are also much less eratic than charbelcher w/out severance, and Fussilade can kill weenie swarms, which I did need to do once.
well good job anyways, even with the mistakes....it happens...
I cant wait to see the SCG results from next weekend though to see what is really making a splash....Ill let you guys know if anything pops up at the vintage event at Pro Tour LA as well...
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pretty high standards to live up to.
For those not in the know on this...
Flame Fussilade 2R
Permanents you control have T:deal 1 damage
Sorcery
Time Vault 2
click the link to see what it does, the wording is too long...
anyhow you can tap vault over and over and over again, by simply untapping over and over again....this normally would mean that you skip your next X turns, however since you are dealing a damage each time you will never get to a next turn...
What im looking for are lists and ideas as to what style and such you all think this combo could fit into...Gifts shells seem to be a popular idea so far, it could already somewhat easily replace Belcher/Severance in Gifts.....
Discuss!
A theoretical build with no playtesting follows
4 mishra's workshop
4 city of brass
4 wasteland
4 gemstone mine
1 tolarian academy
1 strip mine
ACCELERATION
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 mox ruby
1 mox sapphire
1 sol ring
4 time vault
3 flame fusillade
COMBO #2
4 metalworker
3 staff of domination
DISRUPTION
4 goblin welder
4 smokestack
3 crucible of worlds
3 sphere of resistance
1 trinisphere
BROKEN DRAW
1 wheel of fortune
1 memory jar
1 tinker
1 ancestral recall
1 timetwister
4 chalice of the void
4 rack and ruin
1 magma mine
3 choke
3 ray of revelation
The idea is pretty simple play like stax, most of the time, but sometimes you will be able to play a turn one metal worker, and combo out with staff. Or alternately you can play your vault and sit on smokestack and spheres while your opponent lays there helpless and gets decked. Or finally if you draw into the combo you just lay the vault and play fusillade to win.
The original lodestone version never really took off, but it had promise. This version suports welders, and draw sevens, which makes going off with metalworker that much easier.
Alternately just take Andy's gifts list and replace severance-belcher with flame-vault. I've spoken with him and Ben on the win condition in gifts a few times before, and they could care less what they run. But the less mana intensive the two card combo the better. Why build a new deck around the combo when an existing combo-control deck was already built to accomodate it.
The mud combo deck isnt too bad, would you still consider any number of lodestone myr in there to use as another kill mechanism...
also have you considered Tangle Wire in smokestacks slot there and dropping the crucibles to make this more focused on the combo rather than a half stax half combo build...maybe something more like rivers affinity in amount of disruption and focus a little more on speed...
Seriously, as a second win condition. The original deck ran Time Vault + Lodestone Myr combo, and would attack with an infinite/infinite trampler. So i would run like 2 Lodestone Myr, because, as awkward as it seems, you usually kill with the Myr more than with the combo.
You could go mono red and add lodestones for more consistancy though. Then again, you wouldn't have access to the draw sevens that make comboing out with metalworker so easy.
I've got another idea though
3 volcanic island
3 underground sea
2 island
2 snow-covered island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand
1 tolarian academy
ACCELERATION
1 black lotus
1 mana crypt
1 mana vault
1 mox emerald
1 mox jet
1 mox pearl
1 mox puby
1 mox sapphire
1 sol ring
4 force of will
4 mana drain
ENGINE
4 goblin welder
4 brainstorm
4 accumulated knowledge
3 intuition
3 thirst for knowledge
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 tinker
1 yawgmoth's will
1 demonic tutor
1 recoup
2 time vault
2 flame fusillade
I dunno if this is better than gifts, but it is more streamlined. It's more like goth slaver, but it wins when slaver would just be be mindslaving. Obviously there are no meta-game dependent bombs, like g-shaman, or echoing truth, etc. but there's no reason that you couldn't play with them. The biggest problem I see, is just like goth slaver, you've got very little flexibility in the MD. I do love the ak training wheels though.
This more like what you had in mind Lunar? Oh and obviously there should be a worthy tinker target in there like DSC or Titan. If you go for the whole combo at once you can intuition EOT for vault-flame-recoup, but you'll need a welder in play. They will give you the vault in hand, but for a measily ten mana (lol) you can play the vault, recoup the flame, and cast it. More than likely however you would assemble it a bit at a time.
To that end we may need more Fusillades than Time Vaults.
I like nastynate's start, especially with the Recoup which I think is a great addition to the deck.
I don't see the value of playing Snow-Covered Islands when we're not playing anything like Gifts or even Tainted Pact.
I think the mana base is going to need to be tweaked a bit in favor of more Red. The odds of playing both Black spells in the same turn, or even the same game, are pretty slim... but there will be a considerable number of games where you'll need to muster double-red to Recoup the Flame Fusillade. I could see the Underground Sea count going down to two, possibly even one, unless there's a plan for a heavy Black sideboard.
the best you can do is tier 2 quality and that just won't cut it.
i tried it with relativly impressive results as MDG - tendrils and collosus win and + flam-vault win.
gifts for: vault, will, recoup, and flame.
also you can get lotus instead of any pieces.
the upside is that it wins now instead of the possibluity that they kill collosus and the down side is it is a little more mana intensive and is a MDG deck. =P
I would run less of both duels. You won't need red or black until you want to win, like Gifts. By the same amount, increase fetches. Field may hurt them, but they are still very good and give you flexibility. Sitting on them until you want to win is very good.
I would then add at least one of each of Colossus and Burning Wish. Tinker colossus is too strong of a win for any blue deck to ignore right now. Basically, if you have blue, fetches, and brainstorm, why aren't you playing tinker? Burning Wish allows you to put one fusilade board, so that you don't get it until you need it, and if you need something else you'll be fine.
Intuition-Ak is not a very good or efficient draw engine, and that has been established. I would drop that completely, increase tfk to a four of, and add mystical tutor, vampiric tutor, colossus, wish, and a pair of merchant scrolls in their stead.
How good are welders really? It seems they have no purpose in the deck except to protect the combo and as a "metagame" slot, as you said you didn't have. Imo, your not really using them to their full extent, and droping them for a rebuild, truth, and a pair of Gifts would be prety good. However, if their is a reason to play them that I am not seeing, by all means explain. Right now, to me at least, they have no real function other than weakening the mana base and being an anti-welder strategy. Imo, if welder is not being used proactivly, their are probably better options.
As for board, with the wish it would be something like this:
3 Rack and Ruin
1 Flame Fusillade
1 Tendrils of Agony (another alternate win, that could be pulled of the same way gifts does)
2 Pyroclasm
1 Chainer's Edict
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Mystic Remora (With all the new tutors out, you can bet combo will be showing its head.)
1 Cranial Extraction (or something else, I couldn't decide on this slot)
I like how the additions of Duress and Skeletal Scrying make this more a combo deck than a control oriented deck. I like the addition of Fire/Ice for the amazing utility of this card as well as Dead Welders! The problem i've found with the TWL Oath build is that it has nothing in the way of utility IF something makes it past your counters/duress. Fire/Ice helps you with Stax. The great thing about this combo is that you do not need to complete it in 1 turn. If you can get a Time Vault out there quickly, all you need to do is force through one Flame Fusillade to win. This is made much easier with Duress. I also find the Intuition/AK draw engine too mana intensive and out dated. Long live Skeletal Scrying!
4 Time Vault
4 Flame Fusillade
Broken
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
Disruption
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
2 Misdirection
4 Brainstorm
3 Skeletal Scrying
Utility
4 Fire/Ice
Mana
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Island
3 Polluted Delta
1 Strip Mine
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
tuturs and card draw are essential, so RU is the way to go with this. tinker, tutors, all broken mana producing artifacts, and ridiculous draw, then play it out like gifts combo, or controlling stax depending on whether or not you pack wills
You can and probably will usually make the vault in that set tinker instead I would think....
Wow this discussion is all over the board right now...but I am truly impressed with the variety of forms availible...
Basically how I see this getting the most use and best effect is in Brassmans Gifts lists replacing Severance/Belcher with Fussilade/Vault which is a cheaper and easier way to win after a gifts (it requires about 3 less mana usually to go off) it also does not signifigantly alter the plan and style of the deck in any way....
However since that is kinda obvious I was going for what you all thought might be the best way to get this combo to work...Fitting it into Oath or Tog style lists is certainly interesting and could work out as good as gifts and could with the proper work and tinkering be slightly faster (if not better it could be faster certainly)
Im not sure about the hyper mud lists...if the myr version wasnt good enough to break through, im not so sure that a list that needs a colored sorcery to resolve with the vault in play is the best method.
I do agree with binary though about the ratio of fusilade to vault...many lists ive seen run more vaults...this is in error...remember that fusilade is pretty decent on its own by being able to creat a wrecking ball for a turn against aggro, or little things like welder (heck late in the game one resolution of this could be enough damage to win...)
Also of note is the suggestion that this be used in a workshop aggro or even a stax deck as a way to deal final damage or even as a win condition...Im not so sure about this idea, but I could see it fitting in as a neat SB option in Shop Aggro as a finisher or board sweeper of sorts....
Keep the ideas coming guys....!
I would add Mana Crypt instead of off color mox. You need the fast mana and life lose won't matter. To that I would also prefer Mana Vault and Ancient Tomb. With Pithing Needle there needs to be sideboard answers. Pithing Needle is a good reason to rotate fetch lands, have 2 or 3 different ones to fetch the same land so needle can't lock all 4 out. I love Skeletal Scrying too. Good deck start.
Nick: I lay a swamp, tap, dark ritual...
Me: If you cast a hypnotic specter I'll punch you in the face
Nick:...ahh I take 3 points of mana burn
The reason I play black according to CrovaxtheCursed:
I like this deck start a lot, but it needs some work. Its combo that normal combo hate doesn't deal with.
Id keep vampiric for sure and with tinker in the deck and good control and stuff probably also add +1 Mystical Tutor
So if I had that exact list and wanted to make it how I thought it would be better id go with...only thing im not sure about yet is the draw in it..I dont find myself having enough in the yard enough to fully utilize scrying....what do you guys think there...?
4 Flame Fussilade
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Yawgmoth's Will
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
4 Brainstorm
1 Skeletal Scrying
1 Tinker
1 Darksteel Collosus
2 Echoing Truth
3 Thirst for Knowledge (?)
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
1 Strip Mine
2 Wasteland
not 100% sure on that, but im not gigantic on the scryings and the fire/ice personally...
I'm inclined to agree. This deck is trying to perform almost exactly the same function as Severance/Belcher did... resolve a sorcery then use the activated ability of an artifact to win the game in one turn.
The subtle difference, of course, is that in S/B you didn't have to already have the Charbelcher in play when you resolved the Mana Severance.
However, this deck has the advantage of the artifact being cheaper both in casting and activation cost. Hardcasting everything in one turn and winning costs R5 instead of U8.
The only advantage I can see to the Stax approach would be if you're having trouble getting one-half of the combo to "stick." If you can get Time Vault out you can obliterate their board with Tangle + Smokestack; if you can get Fusillade but not Time Vault at least you have a bunch of permanents out.
I remember when stax used to use vault without any combo. It was played exactly as you described. You get them low an perms and use it to keep it on their turn with wire and stax out.
The problem is that in stax, you don't need to win usually if you can resolve the combo, in gifts there are usually better options, and the devoted combo deck needs to prove itself better than dragon and tps. It does look like it has potential, but it needs some help first, imo.
Just my 2¢
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you are only running 1 vault which can be pitched to thirst for knowledge with no problem, and since it only costs 2 it is SUPER easy to replay off of yawgmoths will when you go off if its hit your hand at some point...hard casting it is easy easy and its another permanent against stax.
Can you think of something better than the current gifts decks though? Possibly a different gifts deck all together...
Heres the list:
2 Polluted Delta
5 Island (2 s-c)
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy
7 Solo Moxen (6 Proxies)
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Lotus Petal
1 Time Vault (Proxy)
1 Flame Fussilade (I got this in a pack I won at the prerelease)
1 Darksteel Colossus
1 Tinker
4 Tfk
4 Brainstorm
2 Gifts Ungiven
2 Merchant Scroll
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Recoup
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Burning Wish
1 Engineered Explosives (Proxy)
2 Pithing Needle (1 Proxy)
1 Deep Anal
1 Echoing Ruin
2 Pyroclasm
1 Darkblast
2 EPlague
2 Rack and Ruin
3 Annul
2 REB
1 Pyroblast
Round 1: Vs. Sensei Sensei w/ Green for something
Game 1: Colossus Rolls him over.
Game 2: I don't think he knew the combo or something, he gave me what I needed off a Gifts and a Flamed him.
Round 2: Vs. Control Slaver with a Gifts base.
Game 1: I get an early colossus turn 2 and win.
Game 2: He eventually wins with welderage.
Game 3: We run out of time and tie.
Round 3: Vs. Wu Tang Fish
Game 1: I Gifts with Believer in play (oops), and he eventually crushes me.
Game 2: It takes a while, but eventually when I am at about 4 life, I play fussilade of a lotus and drain mana with 11 permanents in play. Yay flamers!
Game 3: He gets a pair of early factories, and starts rolling me. I draw about 6 counters in a row and he gets no more mana, I evetually play gifts which gets double forced, and at 4 life the next turn I topdeck my next gifts, gifting up the vault win for the next turn. He draws a factory, and puts me at 1, but can't stop me from comboing out.
Round 4: Vs. Stax.
Game 1: I won somehow.
Game 2: He had a tanglewire in play, and I had vault in play, and fussilade in hand. On my turn, I stacked the tanglewire's ability, untapped vault, and tapped it to wire giving me enogh mana to win that turn.
Round 5: Vs. Stax
Game 1: I make a HUGE game mistake when I don't drain a tangle wire and can't make a leathel gifts. Later I make another mistake when I fetch and realize my 5th island had been stripped, fizzling my combo. Eventually He kills me with pithed welders.
Game 2: I get a nosebleed, and we get a 3 minute extention, but I can't win before time is called and I loose.
Round 6: Vs. TempoFiend
Game 1: I win off random early colossus.
Game 2: He stripps me of my wins with a thief.
Game 3: I make the stupidest play ever when I dredge back Darkblast putting a pyroclasm and an explostives into my yard. That would have won me the game...
Round 7: Vs. Solitary
Game 1: I pith bazaar and win with colossus.
Game 2: He combos off with a bunch of stuff.
Game 3: I pith bazaar and eventually win with the combo.
Comments: That one misplay against Stax cost me the tournament. Remember to think about what cards do, and what draining them will do (aka, leathel gifts).
I think I need another darkbast, as I only drew it when I didn't need it. I never used Plague, but maybe I'm just playing it wrong. I'm thinking, -2 Plauge, +1 Darkblast (definitly better than lava dart), +1 ?. Maybe a Merchant scroll, as I found myself Wishing up a boarded out scroll quite often.
The Flamer combo is so much beter than charbelcher because it costs so much less, and fussilade, unlike severence, has other options. Fussilade wins without vault are also much less eratic than charbelcher w/out severance, and Fussilade can kill weenie swarms, which I did need to do once.
I cant wait to see the SCG results from next weekend though to see what is really making a splash....Ill let you guys know if anything pops up at the vintage event at Pro Tour LA as well...