Not in Dragonball. That's just not how the verse works.
For example, Chaozu is a known mindfreaker, but when he tried to invade Nappa's mind it didn't work because Nappa's power was just so much greater than his. If one's to assume that Chaozu's mind magic is equivalent to Jace's or Nicol Bolas', both Jace and Bolas would be unable to read Goku's thoughts, let alone control him.
As for who could beat him... nobody alive right now, that's for sure. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a hell of a drug, and we now know that Super Saiyan 3 Goku has enough raw strength to punch a hole through a planet 10x as dense as Earth. So yeah. It's a complete massacre of the entire Magic pantheon of characters.
Except that mtg style mind control doesn't work like DBZ's does, or at least Chaozu. Also, why would you assume a supporting character is equivalent to a main character or arch villains powers? That argument is narrative bonkers.
You've also ignored that not everything in mtg goes off of pure strength. You know whats hard to punch through? Intangibility. Who cares about raw strength when you can just negate what Goku is doing.
Except that mtg style mind control doesn't work like DBZ's does, or at least Chaozu. Also, why would you assume a supporting character is equivalent to a main character or arch villains powers? That argument is narrative bonkers.
1. Typically in versus debates, one assumes that abilities are basically the same, otherwise you get into pointless semantics like "does The Force affect chakra?" Or "Who knows if people in dragonball have the same biology as people in Magic, so maybe Jace/Bolas wouldn't even know how to affect their minds, or maybe their magic wouldn't work at all!" No, that's boring and undermines the whole scenario. Dragonball uses Ki, Magic uses mana, but for the purposes of a versus debate, they're both just "energy". Similarly, mind control stemming from an application of Ki has to be assumed to work the same as mind control stemming from the usage of mana. Nappa, being the juggernaut he was, was able to block Chaozu's mental manipulation just by using his ki.
2. A character's narrative importance does not at all factor into these things. If that was the case, then Spiderman would be more powerful than The One Above All, and that clearly isn't the case. Chaozu may have been a third string character, but the fact is he had mind powers that far exceeded anything we've seen most Magic characters produce.
You've also ignored that not everything in mtg goes off of pure strength. You know whats hard to punch through? Intangibility. Who cares about raw strength when you can just negate what Goku is doing.
Cool, you're intangible. What does that mean when Goku can literally punch through a planet 10x as dense as Earth when he's in Super Saiyan 3? What does intangibility do for you when Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc is powerful enough to destroy Earth with a single attack, and that's before he transforms into the oozaru, which makes him 10x stronger? Here's what good it is:
>Goku fires a kamehameha
>you turn intangible
>your planet gets destroyed
>Goku uses instant transmission and goes to some place else
>you're left floating in space because while his attack didn't damage you, it destroyed everything around you
That's a win for Goku.
As I said before, DBZ is just on a completely different power tier.
ADDENUDM: I would be remiss not to mention that dragonball characters were moving faster than regular humans could see by the end of the very first arc (And I mean Dragonball, not Dragonball Z, so back when Goku was still a kid). In the first arc of Z, the Saiyan arc, characters were moving so fast you couldn't see them except by tracking their ki.
What does all this mean? It means that before you even think to become intangible you'd be dead.
1. Typically in versus debates, one assumes that abilities are basically the same, otherwise you get into pointless semantics like "does The Force affect chakra?" Or "Who knows if people in dragonball have the same biology as people in Magic, so maybe Jace/Bolas wouldn't even know how to affect their minds, or maybe their magic wouldn't work at all!" No, that's boring and undermines the whole scenario. Dragonball uses Ki, Magic uses mana, but for the purposes of a versus debate, they're both just "energy". Similarly, mind control stemming from an application of Ki has to be assumed to work the same as mind control stemming from the usage of mana. Nappa, being the juggernaut he was, was able to block Chaozu's mental manipulation just by using his ki.
Typically? According to whom? Chaozu's mental abilities work no differently than any other ki based moves in Dragonball that can be shrugged off with a sufficiently high power level. If you want to use a better example of how true magic works in the DBZ universe then Babidi is a clearer example to use. An example which also disproves the "it's just energy" argument you tried to make. Questions like "does The Force affect Chakra" are valid because it would determine how sensing works. The biology question is significantly less interesting as their is little indication that basic biology is different. Hell, the reason that Goku isn't a blood knight like the rest of the Saiyan's has been chocked up to him suffering brain damage as a youth.
So, no, I won't grant equivalence between Chaozu's mindfreaker abilities and something that works in a different fashion. The fact that it's ki vs mana isn't the issue, but that both work separately.
2. A character's narrative importance does not at all factor into these things. If that was the case, then Spiderman would be more powerful than The One Above All, and that clearly isn't the case. Chaozu may have been a third string character, but the fact is he had mind powers that far exceeded anything we've seen most Magic characters produce.
It works like this: Chaozu was a supporting character to a minor antagonist. He was never written to be all that powerful. Using his mental abilities as an argument against character from an entirely different property is foolish. Seriously, I don't know how you wrote this "assume that Chaozu's mind magic is equivalent to Jace's or Nicol Bolas'" without choking. Chaozu equal to Jace? Equal to NICOL BOLAS? Ludicrous.
Your spiderman argument is a non-starter. Shared Universe in a Western Comic. Different rules (and within his own narrative he rarely stays down for long, or loses for long, just like every other traditional story with the only difference being scale)
Chaozu exceeding most magic characters is irrelevant. Most magic characters don't specialize in mental magic and the two you name dropped blow him out the water
Cool, you're intangible. What does that mean when Goku can literally punch through a planet 10x as dense as Earth when he's in Super Saiyan 3? What does intangibility do for you when Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc is powerful enough to destroy Earth with a single attack, and that's before he transforms into the oozaru, which makes him 10x stronger? Here's what good it is:
>Goku fires a kamehameha
>you turn intangible
>your planet gets destroyed
>Goku uses instant transmission and goes to some place else
>you're left floating in space because while his attack didn't damage you, it destroyed everything around you
That's a win for Goku.
As I said before, DBZ is just on a completely different power tier.
ADDENUDM: I would be remiss not to mention that dragonball characters were moving faster than regular humans could see by the end of the very first arc (And I mean Dragonball, not Dragonball Z, so back when Goku was still a kid). In the first arc of Z, the Saiyan arc, characters were moving so fast you couldn't see them except by tracking their ki.
What does all this mean? It means that before you even think to become intangible you'd be dead.
Because Goku commonly strikes first? Doesn't talk at all? And destroys the entire planet with it's presumably millions of innocents on it? Your argument here is completely contradictory to the character.
Ultimately, Nicol Bolas would defeat Goku by talking to him. No magic required. Because Goku is an idiot and Nicol Bolas isn't a mustache twirling Toriyama villain.
For your last comment about DBZ's villains, I'm going to eviscerate your argument. Magic's creative team cannot, on their best day, create villains like Cell, Piccolo Daimao, Vegeta, Freeza or Beerus. And Toriyama ain't no Shakespeare.
Outskirts Battledome, Death Battle, comicvine and every other forum dedicated to cross-series versus matches.
I already explained why going "WELL MAYBE MANA OPERATES DIFFERENTLY FROM KI" defeats the ENTIRE purpose of a cross-series versus match. Get over it.
Chaozu's mental abilities work no differently than any other ki based moves in Dragonball that can be shrugged off with a sufficiently high power level.
Incorrect. According to the only description of his abilities available, Daizenshuu, Chaozu's abilities aren't ki-based.
Psychokinesis
First Appearance: Chapter 80
Category: special
People: Ginyu, Gurudo, Cell, Turbo, Freeza, General Blue, Chaozu, Majin Buu (good)
Special Characteristics: A technique where, without touching them, they move objects with their thoughts. It is also called physic power. Blue guides the objects’ motion with his eyes, while Gurudo and Freeza use their arm movements. Freeza’s ability was passed on to Cell. (Daizenshuu 2, p.205/Daizenshuu 4, p.58, p.69)
All of Chaozu's powers fall into the "special" category, whereas most other characters' powers are ki-based.
If you want to use a better example of how true magic works in the DBZ universe then Babidi is a clearer example to use.
Don't worry, I'll use him too. You know, since this post is going to be my mic drop.
As you can clearly see with your cursory understanding of DB's lore, Vegeta simplywilled Babidi'smagic away by powering up his ki. Babidi was actively trying to control his mind, but after he threw his fit and powered up Babidi couldn't penetrate his mind again. This is consistent with what we saw from Chaozu and Nappa.
Questions like "does The Force affect Chakra" are valid because it would determine how sensing works.
No, it isn't valid at all. If one is to assume the force has no effect on chakra, then let's say Naruto throws a rasenshuriken. No amount of force pushing would affect it. Versus debates are inherently stupid, but it's rules like "assume all energy works the same" that allows them to even exist in the first place. You're not gonna sit there talking about how different Goku's Kamehameha works from Superman's heat vision. For the purposes of a versus debate, they can interact with each other, and then the one with greater feats wins. Simple as that.
The biology question is significantly less interesting as their is little indication that basic biology is different.
It's not interesting, but neither are the semantics of "would this even work the same way"? Look at Jace, and then look at Goku. CLEARLY their biology is different. We know Goku isn't even human by Dragonball Z's verse, which further hampers things.
Hell, the reason that Goku isn't a blood knight like the rest of the Saiyan's has been chocked up to him suffering brain damage as a youth.
Kk.
So, no, I won't grant equivalence between Chaozu's mindfreaker abilities and something that works in a different fashion. The fact that it's ki vs mana isn't the issue, but that both work separately.
No.
They work the same. Chaozu points at someone or looks in their direction, he starts to mindtouch them. Jace points or looks at someone, he starts to mindtouch them. Same thing.
It works like this: Chaozu was a supporting character to a minor antagonist. He was never written to be all that powerful.
Again, versus debate. Narrative importance and authorial intent have no bearing here. Yamcha is an infinitely more important character than Cui/Yakon. Doesn't mean Cui/Yakon wouldn't annihilate him in seconds.
Using his mental abilities as an argument against character from an entirely different property is foolish.
No, versus debates are foolish. The only thing that lends them any validity is establishing equivalences and creating a "neutral ground" where both characters have access to their full suite of abilities. Simple, basic stuff.
Seriously, I don't know how you wrote this "assume that Chaozu's mind magic is equivalent to Jace's or Nicol Bolas'" without choking. Chaozu equal to Jace? Equal to NICOL BOLAS? Ludicrous.
So you don't have an actual argument other than "Chaozu isn't important in his show. No way he can beat someone in mine." What kind of sense does that even begin to make?
Your spiderman argument is a non-starter. Shared Universe in a Western Comic.Different rules (and within his own narrative he rarely stays down for long, or loses for long, just like every other traditional story with the only difference being scale)
What the heck are you even talking about. Spiderman is a narratively more important character than TOAA, Galactus, and pretty much everyone else in the Marvel universe not named Wolverine, yet he still doesn't even begin to compare to the juggernauts out there. This is basic stuff. Narrative importance has no bearing on a characters power level or combat efficacy. Deal with it.
Chaozu exceeding most magic characters is irrelevant. Most magic characters don't specialize in mental magic and the two you name dropped blow him out the water
No, it's actually quite relevant. Chaozu being an upper-tier mindfreaker when compared to Magic's characters show just how low-tier Magic's characters are. That goes back to the point of this thread, which is "Can anyone in Magic beat Goku". No, they cannot since Goku puts the telepath (Chaozu) with greater feats (than most of Magic's characters) to shame.
And you don't see how you're trying to put limits on Goku? Why would you put this fight on a planet with millions of innocent people? To purposefully handicap what Goku can do.
Your argument here is completely contradictory to the character.
Good thing Goku's character isn't at all like Funimation's old DBZ dub portrays him. The REAL Goku is callous and doesn't ponder consequences. He'll destroy that planet and then bring it back with the dragonballs.
Further, if we're taking the characters' morals into play, then they wouldn't be fighting in the first place. Don't you get what a versus battle is about?
Ultimately, Nicol Bolas would defeat Goku by talking to him. No magic required. Because Goku is an idiot and Nicol Bolas isn't a mustache twirling Toriyama villain.
Goku wouldn't need more than a kiai, which can be done with just a look, to beat Bolas.
So, I may be a Jace fanboy, but here are some issues:
@TerrorKingA
If we're allowing Death Battle in as any kind of authority, let me be the first to tell you that in the DB universe, MAGIC AND KI ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Sure Babidi and the other magic users aren't very strong in the DB universe. Chaozu on the other hand is strong, specifically when it comes to mental abilities.
However, your own source says that Chaozu's abilities aren't ki based, they are "special."
Another thing is the whole assume mana and ki are the same thing. Lololololol wow that was probably the stupidest thing I've ever read in my life. Mana is the energy drawn from lands, similarly to how Goku draws energy for the spirit bomb. It is then used to perform spells, so it may be energy in reserves, it is actual magic when used. Even if Jace couldn't mentally manipulate Goku, his magic would still effect him if they were just both walking along a path and decided to spar.
Another thing is that The Force COULD affect Chakra. Maybe it wouldn't do something like Force Push a rasenshuriken, but Neji could use his 8 trigrams attack and disable chakra points. The Force can act as a ranged version of that attack, if the Jedi/Sith/Individual is trained well enough. The other thing is that the said individual would need to know HOW to, and WHERE the chakra points are. This is a common mistake that many versus-thread commentors make. Different things ARE DIFFERENT. THERE IS NO SHAME IN ADMITTING THAT. YOU USED DEATHBATTLE AND THEY HAD STARSCREAM FIGHT A MY LITTLE PONY FOR GOD'S SAKE. I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING MORE DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER.
Anyway, if each fighter in every versus battle was well-versed with their opponent, I can tell you that the force-trained individual would have defeated whatever ninja he opposed.
Back to Goku and Jace, or any other planeswalker for that matter, the planeswalker would know to planeswalk and avoid the fight entirely.
That's another thing. I have never seen Goku teleport between universes. Sure in Resurrection "F" Goku was able to instant transmission from Whis and Beerus' tree to Earth, but he couldn't leave on his own. He needed assistance, from either Whis to the tree, or his friends from Earth. Planes are their own separate universes, regardless of their size, it is still a universe. They can do that on their own, while Goku probably won't be able to do that until the next season of DBS.
I find that I need to repeat that Chaozu's abilities are not ki-based, but at the same time are not considered magic. Rather, they are special. Magic may relate to power levels in Goku or Vegeta's base form, but saying that it's the same thing as Chaozu's confirmed non-ki, non-magic special powers is like saying a tomato is just like an avocado because they are both fruits. They may be similar but they sure as **** are not the same. Just because it is simpler to generalize two different things for a versus debate doesn't glaze over your idiocy.
Again with the Chaozu abilities, not magic, being equivalent to Jace or Nicol Bolas' mind magic. No. You're wrong sweetie. Magic vs specialness. That should be the next versus debate. If we are going by their full potentials and their biggest accomplishments, didn't Nicol Bolas enslave another planeswalker (Take this part with a grain of salt, as I'm not completely sure)? I also think Jace fought against all ten of the guilds on Ravnica. Please tell me how close Chaozu has come to doing something like that (and please tell me if I am wrong here, because I'm not too too sure about this).
@Elvish Crack Piper
The level of the character's narrative does not stop their power. Chaozu may be a 3rd string runningback, but he can still make some good plays.
Now, let me be the first to say that if these two individuals were placed in an arena and we all shouted "fight," Jace would lose pretty quickly. However I don't see Jace entering the World's Martial Arts Tournament anytime soon. The most likely way for these two to meet and fight would be if they were walking along a path and Goku was like "Hey, you look strong! Wanna fight?" By that time, Jace would have penetrated Goku's mind, found out what he needed to know, not even bother to erase his memory, and melt his brain. Honestly, that is how I see Jace winning.
Goku gathers ki from the environment and people. It is the equivalent of absorbing mana from lands. Ki is quite literally life energy, as is mana. It's insane to draw a distinction between them.
Just in case you do wish to draw an asinine distinction, do note that I used Chaozu as a reference and then brought up the actual magic users like Babidi and Demigra. You have provided no defense.
Your knowledge of Magic's lore is lacking. I suggest you brush up on that before you dare call anyone stupid, friend.
In a straight-up fight, there is no possible way Jace could beat Goku, who will have already punched him in the face several hundred thousand times while Jace was still forming the thought to cast his first spell. Someone mentioned contingent spells a while back, but unless those are a thing Jace has active all the time, it can probably be assumed that he doesn't have them up.
Emrakul is trickier; Goku's never faced anything like her. The way her presence warps the fabric of reality, reverses gravity, etc., might interfere with his abilities long enough for her to corrupt him and/or destroy his mind. Or that might not work given that 'god ki' he's got going now. Or none of that could work and he could wipe her out with a ginormous Kamehameha. Or that might not work due to the aforementioned reality warping. Too many unknown variables for me to call the fight one way or another, personally.
Bolas would never, ever engage Goku in a direct physical confrontation. He's smarter than that.
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Except that mtg style mind control doesn't work like DBZ's does, or at least Chaozu. Also, why would you assume a supporting character is equivalent to a main character or arch villains powers? That argument is narrative bonkers.
You've also ignored that not everything in mtg goes off of pure strength. You know whats hard to punch through? Intangibility. Who cares about raw strength when you can just negate what Goku is doing.
1. Typically in versus debates, one assumes that abilities are basically the same, otherwise you get into pointless semantics like "does The Force affect chakra?" Or "Who knows if people in dragonball have the same biology as people in Magic, so maybe Jace/Bolas wouldn't even know how to affect their minds, or maybe their magic wouldn't work at all!" No, that's boring and undermines the whole scenario. Dragonball uses Ki, Magic uses mana, but for the purposes of a versus debate, they're both just "energy". Similarly, mind control stemming from an application of Ki has to be assumed to work the same as mind control stemming from the usage of mana. Nappa, being the juggernaut he was, was able to block Chaozu's mental manipulation just by using his ki.
2. A character's narrative importance does not at all factor into these things. If that was the case, then Spiderman would be more powerful than The One Above All, and that clearly isn't the case. Chaozu may have been a third string character, but the fact is he had mind powers that far exceeded anything we've seen most Magic characters produce.
Cool, you're intangible. What does that mean when Goku can literally punch through a planet 10x as dense as Earth when he's in Super Saiyan 3? What does intangibility do for you when Vegeta in the Saiyan Arc is powerful enough to destroy Earth with a single attack, and that's before he transforms into the oozaru, which makes him 10x stronger? Here's what good it is:
>Goku fires a kamehameha
>you turn intangible
>your planet gets destroyed
>Goku uses instant transmission and goes to some place else
>you're left floating in space because while his attack didn't damage you, it destroyed everything around you
That's a win for Goku.
As I said before, DBZ is just on a completely different power tier.
ADDENUDM: I would be remiss not to mention that dragonball characters were moving faster than regular humans could see by the end of the very first arc (And I mean Dragonball, not Dragonball Z, so back when Goku was still a kid). In the first arc of Z, the Saiyan arc, characters were moving so fast you couldn't see them except by tracking their ki.
What does all this mean? It means that before you even think to become intangible you'd be dead.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Typically? According to whom? Chaozu's mental abilities work no differently than any other ki based moves in Dragonball that can be shrugged off with a sufficiently high power level. If you want to use a better example of how true magic works in the DBZ universe then Babidi is a clearer example to use. An example which also disproves the "it's just energy" argument you tried to make. Questions like "does The Force affect Chakra" are valid because it would determine how sensing works. The biology question is significantly less interesting as their is little indication that basic biology is different. Hell, the reason that Goku isn't a blood knight like the rest of the Saiyan's has been chocked up to him suffering brain damage as a youth.
So, no, I won't grant equivalence between Chaozu's mindfreaker abilities and something that works in a different fashion. The fact that it's ki vs mana isn't the issue, but that both work separately.
It works like this: Chaozu was a supporting character to a minor antagonist. He was never written to be all that powerful. Using his mental abilities as an argument against character from an entirely different property is foolish. Seriously, I don't know how you wrote this "assume that Chaozu's mind magic is equivalent to Jace's or Nicol Bolas'" without choking. Chaozu equal to Jace? Equal to NICOL BOLAS? Ludicrous.
Your spiderman argument is a non-starter. Shared Universe in a Western Comic. Different rules (and within his own narrative he rarely stays down for long, or loses for long, just like every other traditional story with the only difference being scale)
Chaozu exceeding most magic characters is irrelevant. Most magic characters don't specialize in mental magic and the two you name dropped blow him out the water
Because Goku commonly strikes first? Doesn't talk at all? And destroys the entire planet with it's presumably millions of innocents on it? Your argument here is completely contradictory to the character.
Ultimately, Nicol Bolas would defeat Goku by talking to him. No magic required. Because Goku is an idiot and Nicol Bolas isn't a mustache twirling Toriyama villain.
Outskirts Battledome, Death Battle, comicvine and every other forum dedicated to cross-series versus matches.
I already explained why going "WELL MAYBE MANA OPERATES DIFFERENTLY FROM KI" defeats the ENTIRE purpose of a cross-series versus match. Get over it.
Incorrect. According to the only description of his abilities available, Daizenshuu, Chaozu's abilities aren't ki-based.
All of Chaozu's powers fall into the "special" category, whereas most other characters' powers are ki-based.
Don't worry, I'll use him too. You know, since this post is going to be my mic drop.
As you can clearly see with your cursory understanding of DB's lore, Vegeta simply willed Babidi's magic away by powering up his ki. Babidi was actively trying to control his mind, but after he threw his fit and powered up Babidi couldn't penetrate his mind again. This is consistent with what we saw from Chaozu and Nappa.
Just for fun, Dragonball Xenoverse also shows someone with godly ki cannot be mentally manipulated. What does Goku have? Godly ki.
No, it isn't valid at all. If one is to assume the force has no effect on chakra, then let's say Naruto throws a rasenshuriken. No amount of force pushing would affect it. Versus debates are inherently stupid, but it's rules like "assume all energy works the same" that allows them to even exist in the first place. You're not gonna sit there talking about how different Goku's Kamehameha works from Superman's heat vision. For the purposes of a versus debate, they can interact with each other, and then the one with greater feats wins. Simple as that.
It's not interesting, but neither are the semantics of "would this even work the same way"? Look at Jace, and then look at Goku. CLEARLY their biology is different. We know Goku isn't even human by Dragonball Z's verse, which further hampers things.
Kk.
No.
They work the same. Chaozu points at someone or looks in their direction, he starts to mindtouch them. Jace points or looks at someone, he starts to mindtouch them. Same thing.
Again, versus debate. Narrative importance and authorial intent have no bearing here. Yamcha is an infinitely more important character than Cui/Yakon. Doesn't mean Cui/Yakon wouldn't annihilate him in seconds.
No, versus debates are foolish. The only thing that lends them any validity is establishing equivalences and creating a "neutral ground" where both characters have access to their full suite of abilities. Simple, basic stuff.
So you don't have an actual argument other than "Chaozu isn't important in his show. No way he can beat someone in mine." What kind of sense does that even begin to make?
What the heck are you even talking about. Spiderman is a narratively more important character than TOAA, Galactus, and pretty much everyone else in the Marvel universe not named Wolverine, yet he still doesn't even begin to compare to the juggernauts out there. This is basic stuff. Narrative importance has no bearing on a characters power level or combat efficacy. Deal with it.
No, it's actually quite relevant. Chaozu being an upper-tier mindfreaker when compared to Magic's characters show just how low-tier Magic's characters are. That goes back to the point of this thread, which is "Can anyone in Magic beat Goku". No, they cannot since Goku puts the telepath (Chaozu) with greater feats (than most of Magic's characters) to shame.
Yes. Goku tends to strike first.
Sure.
Yes.
And you don't see how you're trying to put limits on Goku? Why would you put this fight on a planet with millions of innocent people? To purposefully handicap what Goku can do.
Good thing Goku's character isn't at all like Funimation's old DBZ dub portrays him. The REAL Goku is callous and doesn't ponder consequences. He'll destroy that planet and then bring it back with the dragonballs.
Further, if we're taking the characters' morals into play, then they wouldn't be fighting in the first place. Don't you get what a versus battle is about?
Goku wouldn't need more than a kiai, which can be done with just a look, to beat Bolas.
Your mods are terrified of me.
@TerrorKingA
If we're allowing Death Battle in as any kind of authority, let me be the first to tell you that in the DB universe, MAGIC AND KI ARE TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. Sure Babidi and the other magic users aren't very strong in the DB universe. Chaozu on the other hand is strong, specifically when it comes to mental abilities.
However, your own source says that Chaozu's abilities aren't ki based, they are "special."
Another thing is the whole assume mana and ki are the same thing. Lololololol wow that was probably the stupidest thing I've ever read in my life. Mana is the energy drawn from lands, similarly to how Goku draws energy for the spirit bomb. It is then used to perform spells, so it may be energy in reserves, it is actual magic when used. Even if Jace couldn't mentally manipulate Goku, his magic would still effect him if they were just both walking along a path and decided to spar.
Another thing is that The Force COULD affect Chakra. Maybe it wouldn't do something like Force Push a rasenshuriken, but Neji could use his 8 trigrams attack and disable chakra points. The Force can act as a ranged version of that attack, if the Jedi/Sith/Individual is trained well enough. The other thing is that the said individual would need to know HOW to, and WHERE the chakra points are. This is a common mistake that many versus-thread commentors make. Different things ARE DIFFERENT. THERE IS NO SHAME IN ADMITTING THAT. YOU USED DEATHBATTLE AND THEY HAD STARSCREAM FIGHT A MY LITTLE PONY FOR GOD'S SAKE. I CAN'T THINK OF ANYTHING MORE DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER.
Anyway, if each fighter in every versus battle was well-versed with their opponent, I can tell you that the force-trained individual would have defeated whatever ninja he opposed.
Back to Goku and Jace, or any other planeswalker for that matter, the planeswalker would know to planeswalk and avoid the fight entirely.
That's another thing. I have never seen Goku teleport between universes. Sure in Resurrection "F" Goku was able to instant transmission from Whis and Beerus' tree to Earth, but he couldn't leave on his own. He needed assistance, from either Whis to the tree, or his friends from Earth. Planes are their own separate universes, regardless of their size, it is still a universe. They can do that on their own, while Goku probably won't be able to do that until the next season of DBS.
I find that I need to repeat that Chaozu's abilities are not ki-based, but at the same time are not considered magic. Rather, they are special. Magic may relate to power levels in Goku or Vegeta's base form, but saying that it's the same thing as Chaozu's confirmed non-ki, non-magic special powers is like saying a tomato is just like an avocado because they are both fruits. They may be similar but they sure as **** are not the same. Just because it is simpler to generalize two different things for a versus debate doesn't glaze over your idiocy.
Again with the Chaozu abilities, not magic, being equivalent to Jace or Nicol Bolas' mind magic. No. You're wrong sweetie. Magic vs specialness. That should be the next versus debate. If we are going by their full potentials and their biggest accomplishments, didn't Nicol Bolas enslave another planeswalker (Take this part with a grain of salt, as I'm not completely sure)? I also think Jace fought against all ten of the guilds on Ravnica. Please tell me how close Chaozu has come to doing something like that (and please tell me if I am wrong here, because I'm not too too sure about this).
@Elvish Crack Piper
The level of the character's narrative does not stop their power. Chaozu may be a 3rd string runningback, but he can still make some good plays.
Now, let me be the first to say that if these two individuals were placed in an arena and we all shouted "fight," Jace would lose pretty quickly. However I don't see Jace entering the World's Martial Arts Tournament anytime soon. The most likely way for these two to meet and fight would be if they were walking along a path and Goku was like "Hey, you look strong! Wanna fight?" By that time, Jace would have penetrated Goku's mind, found out what he needed to know, not even bother to erase his memory, and melt his brain. Honestly, that is how I see Jace winning.
Goku gathers ki from the environment and people. It is the equivalent of absorbing mana from lands. Ki is quite literally life energy, as is mana. It's insane to draw a distinction between them.
Just in case you do wish to draw an asinine distinction, do note that I used Chaozu as a reference and then brought up the actual magic users like Babidi and Demigra. You have provided no defense.
Your knowledge of Magic's lore is lacking. I suggest you brush up on that before you dare call anyone stupid, friend.
Your mods are terrified of me.
Ugin, Nicole Bolas, Jace the mind sculptor.
Emrakul the aeons torn.
but. the advantage of Goku rather is being able to adopt to the situations.... so i think goku would still win.
Emrakul is trickier; Goku's never faced anything like her. The way her presence warps the fabric of reality, reverses gravity, etc., might interfere with his abilities long enough for her to corrupt him and/or destroy his mind. Or that might not work given that 'god ki' he's got going now. Or none of that could work and he could wipe her out with a ginormous Kamehameha. Or that might not work due to the aforementioned reality warping. Too many unknown variables for me to call the fight one way or another, personally.
Bolas would never, ever engage Goku in a direct physical confrontation. He's smarter than that.