Phage the Untouchable. Goku would never start a fight off with some all powerful energy blast so would by the very nature of who he is touch her before even trying to fight seriously. Hell even if he knew about it he probably would try touching her anyways just because he is the type that is always pushing himself to the limits and not taking on someone's primary/ultimate attacks/weapons would be a defeat in his mind.
I'm going to attempt to give Goku a list of abilities in MTG term with reasons why he has those. LMK if this is any good. No real power/toughness or mana costs.
Goku
Legendary Creature - Saiyan Warrior
Flash (instant transmission)
Flying
Hexproof (speed, see Nimble Mongoose)
Trample (energy blasts)
First Strike (speed + blasts)
Vigilance (Speed, martial arts)
0: Exile Goku, return him to the battlefield at anytime of your choosing(Instant Transmission, speed).
t: Exile target artifact, creature or land(Spirit Bomb, eg. the one that erased Kid Buu from existence).
Well luckily that card loses to a number of planeswalkers who can cast trick bind. Or any number of things. Also instant transmission clearly doesn't make you hex proof or weirdly flickering as goku often gets the hell beaten out of him.
You can not take the lore over the cards and assume Goku just wins.
In the books, from his abditory, Yawgmoth was at a god level above PW level and his entire plane was wiped out by Pernicious Deed
You can not take the lore over the cards and assume Goku just wins.
In the books, from his abditory, Yawgmoth was at a god level above PW level and his entire plane was wiped out by Pernicious Deed
No. Phyrexia was destroyed by the event represented by Pernicious Deed. Not the effects of the card.
Probably Pre-mending planeswalkers if not written by Toriyama. I'd pick MTG if only because it has, by far, the better written storylines. Which don't seem very good most of the time, so take that as you will.
Goku wins if he doesn't die in the first confrontation (or subsequently gets resurrected by the Dragon Balls) because following previous storylines he'll train/find some powerup and eventually beat whoever the bigbad is.
So Urza beats Goku but loses to Batman who potentially loses to post-mending Bolas. Either way two MarySues die so we all win in the end.
Well luckily that card loses to a number of planeswalkers who can cast trick bind. Or any number of things. Also instant transmission clearly doesn't make you hex proof or weirdly flickering as goku often gets the hell beaten out of him.
If a mongoose has hex proof purely because of speed. I'd say Goku does too.
As for instant transmission, Goku has shown to use it for that flickering in the manga. When he was holding the spirit bomb while fighting Kid Buu, he flickers and dodges a fireball because he couldn't move otherwise.
Well luckily that card loses to a number of planeswalkers who can cast trick bind. Or any number of things. Also instant transmission clearly doesn't make you hex proof or weirdly flickering as goku often gets the hell beaten out of him.
If a mongoose has hex proof purely because of speed. I'd say Goku does too.
As for instant transmission, Goku has shown to use it for that flickering in the manga. When he was holding the spirit bomb while fighting Kid Buu, he flickers and dodges a fireball because he couldn't move otherwise.
The problem with this entire question, and all questions regarding Goku, is that there is basically no way to measure Goku's power. "Power level" obviously isn't a real way to measure things because we have no concept of its actual relation to any real measurement. Goku is always just represented as just powerful enough to do whatever it is he needs to do. It's not brilliant writing, it's a hero who always wins by the skin of his teeth because he's able to continually power up despite getting his ass kicked. It's like in a racing movie when the drivers just keep shifting up to one more gear and are suddenly faster. There's no logic, none of it makes sense. It's the exact logic that Gurren Lagaan spent its entire runtime parodying. There's nothing wrong with it, but it makes questions like these a crapfest to try and respond to, and it really doesn't help that you've clearly gone into this thread knowing that you're going to say "nuh uh" to everyone who says there's somebody who might stand a chance.
If you want to get technical, you have to question the speed of thought. Goku's instant transmission is, presumably, instant. Literally zero time elapses from when he disappears. From the word "GO," he'd have to think to use instant transmission, then think to throw a punch. That's two actions to Jace's one "mind control this guy right now."
URGImperial AnimarGRU BRGProssh, Tokenmaker of KherGRB WURNarset NostalgicRUW UBR"I like your deck better" JelevaRBU UBlue BraidsU GAzusa, Lost but RampingG
WUHanna, Pillowfort's NavigatorUW WBRAleshacratsBRW UBRGrixis Pew PewRBU URGYasova the ThreateningGRU BGGlissa the ArticiferGB WUSygg MerfolkUW RSquee, Value NabobR
Well luckily that card loses to a number of planeswalkers who can cast trick bind. Or any number of things. Also instant transmission clearly doesn't make you hex proof or weirdly flickering as goku often gets the hell beaten out of him.
If a mongoose has hex proof purely because of speed. I'd say Goku does too.
As for instant transmission, Goku has shown to use it for that flickering in the manga. When he was holding the spirit bomb while fighting Kid Buu, he flickers and dodges a fireball because he couldn't move otherwise.
The problem with this entire question, and all questions regarding Goku, is that there is basically no way to measure Goku's power. "Power level" obviously isn't a real way to measure things because we have no concept of its actual relation to any real measurement. Goku is always just represented as just powerful enough to do whatever it is he needs to do. It's not brilliant writing, it's a hero who always wins by the skin of his teeth because he's able to continually power up despite getting his ass kicked. It's like in a racing movie when the drivers just keep shifting up to one more gear and are suddenly faster. There's no logic, none of it makes sense. It's the exact logic that Gurren Lagaan spent its entire runtime parodying. There's nothing wrong with it, but it makes questions like these a crapfest to try and respond to, and it really doesn't help that you've clearly gone into this thread knowing that you're going to say "nuh uh" to everyone who says there's somebody who might stand a chance.
If you want to get technical, you have to question the speed of thought. Goku's instant transmission is, presumably, instant. Literally zero time elapses from when he disappears. From the word "GO," he'd have to think to use instant transmission, then think to throw a punch. That's two actions to Jace's one "mind control this guy right now."
I'm not going to just say nuh uh to everything. In fact I've pretty much conceded at this point old walkers do stand a good chance at beating Goku. That said, I will argue points people bring up that I feel either doesn't actually work against Goku or are inconsistent enough to cast doubt to their validity.
For example the Jace mind control example you put up. IIRC from reading MTG novels, the caster need to draw mana from the land which is not instantaneous, before forming a spell and casting it. And this was an oldwalker doing this (Urza) who is far more powerful than Jace.
You are also right its is hard to quantify Goku's powers which is why the only real way is by comparing him and his feats to similar things that exist in the MTG universe. Which is why I continuously bring up Obliterate and am also using the Blurred Mongoose example for hexproof.
Just so we're clear, blurred mongoose has shroud, not hexproof, it has shroud because it is hiding, not because it is fast, and goku provably doesn't have hexproof, because he gets the crud beaten out of him and hit with ranged "spells" constantly.
And to be clear, from a quick search, zero creatures in magic have hexproof because of speed - it is generally because either (a) They are hiding (Thrun, Silhana ledgewalkers), (b) No-one would want to hurt them (Sacred wolf), (c) unspecified protective magic (essentially all blue creatures with it), (d) They are by their nature hard to touch (Geist of saint traft; no, not goku) or (e) no reason whatsoever based on the card.
Also, were goku a card, he would have level up, clearly; with (0-99) vanilla 4/4 and then better as he leveled, and the text "level only once per turn", because, man, does that boy take a while to power up.
Clone would be a major issue against Goku. It would be able to copy all of Goku's abilities, attacks, transformations, and able to go to Goku's maximum power level.
Just so we're clear, blurred mongoose has shroud, not hexproof, it has shroud because it is hiding, not because it is fast, and goku provably doesn't have hexproof, because he gets the crud beaten out of him and hit with ranged "spells" constantly.
And to be clear, from a quick search, zero creatures in magic have hexproof because of speed - it is generally because either (a) They are hiding (Thrun, Silhana ledgewalkers), (b) No-one would want to hurt them (Sacred wolf), (c) unspecified protective magic (essentially all blue creatures with it), (d) They are by their nature hard to touch (Geist of saint traft; no, not goku) or (e) no reason whatsoever based on the card.
Also, were goku a card, he would have level up, clearly; with (0-99) vanilla 4/4 and then better as he leveled, and the text "level only once per turn", because, man, does that boy take a while to power up.
Aven Fleetwing. Maybe, Goku should have level up, but I specified that this was Goku's most powerful form, so he should be at max level from the beginning. As for cloning, that could work too. However, it depends if the clone(or the person controlling the clone) knows Goku's techniques as well. Captain Ginyu stole Goku's body and couldn't do anything with it, because he didn't have the knowledge of how to do his power ups.
it just simply does not lead to a useful thread if some people say: "because he does not like to fight good people, he would give jace 4 days, so he can mind control him".
we have too assume that goku uses his full power in the first second of the fight.
Also Goku has a very high level of intuition. so to say that he would die by touching Phage, the untouchable is just wrong. he would smell that he shouldnt do that, and just kill it with a ki-blast. also since he has super human regeneration and physical strength i doubt he would be killed by just touching her.
These statements seem incongruent since in the Lore Goku has quite consistently allowed his opponents to get to full power and he himself quite consistently takes time to power up getting the measure of his opponent and such. He has also shown great willingness to take on his oppenents best attacks head on. Nor is he the kind of person to just outright kill someone before the fight even really started
I'm not sure where you get Goku likes to take his opponents attacks head on. If that was the case gorilla Vegata would have just killed him as Goku wold have just stood there and tried to tank all the beam attacks.
As for Goku letting opponents powerup, that's inconsistent at best. It's more of a Vegeta schtick, to show how superior to his opponents he was. Goku didn't let Ginyu force, Cell etc. go to full power(he went to full power when fighting SSJ2 Gohan) and instead tried to end it by blowing half his body off, infact he told Gohan to finish Cell off quickly as he could powerup and do something crazy. In a match with full knowledge of opponents, Goku would know that there's mind control etc coming up, and try to end it asap.
I'm not sure where you get Goku likes to take his opponents attacks head on. If that was the case gorilla Vegata would have just killed him as Goku wold have just stood there and tried to tank all the beam attacks.
As for Goku letting opponents powerup, that's inconsistent at best. It's more of a Vegeta schtick, to show how superior to his opponents he was. Goku didn't let Ginyu force, Cell etc. go to full power(he went to full power when fighting SSJ2 Gohan) and instead tried to end it by blowing half his body off, infact he told Gohan to finish Cell off quickly as he could powerup and do something crazy. In a match with full knowledge of opponents, Goku would know that there's mind control etc coming up, and try to end it asap.
yea, goku's going to know all about his opponents because he is all about the book learnin'.
In a match with full knowledge, the notion the Bolas is going to lose is *laughable*. Urza is the same; give that man some prep time and he will set you up the bomb.
Depends on what you mean by beat Goku. Death is a mere inconvenience for Goku, and anyone in Magic would have to destroy the world of DragonBall to be able to permanently put a stop to Goku, as he'll just keep coming back stronger.
But could anyone defeat Goku? Obviously yes.
Look, it's simple: Goku power exists in terms of his ability to deal damage and take damage. Goku can deal a bunch of damage physically by punching someone, and by shooting blasts of energy. He can take a bunch of punishment. Also, he can fly.
So Goku is basically a really high power, really high toughness creature with flying, if not a bunch of other key words.
The thing is, we're in the Magic universe. Both in terms of the storyline and in the mechanics of the game there are ways of getting rid of a creature with high toughness. Even if Goku's toughness were 9001, there would be ways of dealing with him in-game.
Storyline-wise, Goku's easy to dispatch. Remember in Cell saga that Goku's put out of commission by a virus that would have killed him had Trunks not come with a cure. So Goku's vulnerable to disease. Remember how black magic has disease spells? Remember how black magic has spells that just kill people outright? Yeah. That'd help.
There's also things like Goku needing to breathe. This means that immersing him in water would kill him. Surrounding him in fire to remove all the oxygen would kill him. Making plants grow into his lungs would kill him. Sending him into deep space would kill him.
In fact, it's actually stated in the novel for Apocalypse that the simplest summoning spell there is is to bring nothing into existence. Bo Levar demonstrates the effectiveness of this when he creates a point of inviolate nothingness that cannot be occupied by any matter, and takes down a dragon engine with a single point of this. A whole lot of nothing could kill Goku.
Goku's extremely powerful, but he's powerful in exactly one way: brute force. Goku's also very resilient, but only to one thing: brute force. This is the world of magic, where anyone adept in Magic can manipulate reality. To such a person, there are as many ways of attacking Goku as a person is capable of imagining.
And if we're talking about old school planeswalkers, how could Goku even fight, let alone win? Traditional planeswalkers' bodies were just manifestations of their will. You cannot kill them by force because their bodies aren't really bodies. Hell, a planeswalker could choose to manifest as a giant Destructo Disk if he wanted to. Or in a body made of pure ki energy.
Not in Dragonball. That's just not how the verse works.
For example, Chaozu is a known mindfreaker, but when he tried to invade Nappa's mind it didn't work because Nappa's power was just so much greater than his. If one's to assume that Chaozu's mind magic is equivalent to Jace's or Nicol Bolas', both Jace and Bolas would be unable to read Goku's thoughts, let alone control him.
As for who could beat him... nobody alive right now, that's for sure. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a hell of a drug, and we now know that Super Saiyan 3 Goku has enough raw strength to punch a hole through a planet 10x as dense as Earth. So yeah. It's a complete massacre of the entire Magic pantheon of characters.
Also Norin the Wary because you can't touch this
Goku
Legendary Creature - Saiyan Warrior
Flash (instant transmission)
Flying
Hexproof (speed, see Nimble Mongoose)
Trample (energy blasts)
First Strike (speed + blasts)
Vigilance (Speed, martial arts)
0: Exile Goku, return him to the battlefield at anytime of your choosing(Instant Transmission, speed).
t: Exile target artifact, creature or land(Spirit Bomb, eg. the one that erased Kid Buu from existence).
p/t
In the books, from his abditory, Yawgmoth was at a god level above PW level and his entire plane was wiped out by Pernicious Deed
No. Phyrexia was destroyed by the event represented by Pernicious Deed. Not the effects of the card.
Goku wins if he doesn't die in the first confrontation (or subsequently gets resurrected by the Dragon Balls) because following previous storylines he'll train/find some powerup and eventually beat whoever the bigbad is.
So Urza beats Goku but loses to Batman who potentially loses to post-mending Bolas. Either way two MarySues die so we all win in the end.
If a mongoose has hex proof purely because of speed. I'd say Goku does too.
As for instant transmission, Goku has shown to use it for that flickering in the manga. When he was holding the spirit bomb while fighting Kid Buu, he flickers and dodges a fireball because he couldn't move otherwise.
The problem with this entire question, and all questions regarding Goku, is that there is basically no way to measure Goku's power. "Power level" obviously isn't a real way to measure things because we have no concept of its actual relation to any real measurement. Goku is always just represented as just powerful enough to do whatever it is he needs to do. It's not brilliant writing, it's a hero who always wins by the skin of his teeth because he's able to continually power up despite getting his ass kicked. It's like in a racing movie when the drivers just keep shifting up to one more gear and are suddenly faster. There's no logic, none of it makes sense. It's the exact logic that Gurren Lagaan spent its entire runtime parodying. There's nothing wrong with it, but it makes questions like these a crapfest to try and respond to, and it really doesn't help that you've clearly gone into this thread knowing that you're going to say "nuh uh" to everyone who says there's somebody who might stand a chance.
If you want to get technical, you have to question the speed of thought. Goku's instant transmission is, presumably, instant. Literally zero time elapses from when he disappears. From the word "GO," he'd have to think to use instant transmission, then think to throw a punch. That's two actions to Jace's one "mind control this guy right now."
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Legacy: UBGShardless BUGGBU
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RSquee, Value NabobR
I'm not going to just say nuh uh to everything. In fact I've pretty much conceded at this point old walkers do stand a good chance at beating Goku. That said, I will argue points people bring up that I feel either doesn't actually work against Goku or are inconsistent enough to cast doubt to their validity.
For example the Jace mind control example you put up. IIRC from reading MTG novels, the caster need to draw mana from the land which is not instantaneous, before forming a spell and casting it. And this was an oldwalker doing this (Urza) who is far more powerful than Jace.
You are also right its is hard to quantify Goku's powers which is why the only real way is by comparing him and his feats to similar things that exist in the MTG universe. Which is why I continuously bring up Obliterate and am also using the Blurred Mongoose example for hexproof.
And to be clear, from a quick search, zero creatures in magic have hexproof because of speed - it is generally because either (a) They are hiding (Thrun, Silhana ledgewalkers), (b) No-one would want to hurt them (Sacred wolf), (c) unspecified protective magic (essentially all blue creatures with it), (d) They are by their nature hard to touch (Geist of saint traft; no, not goku) or (e) no reason whatsoever based on the card.
Also, were goku a card, he would have level up, clearly; with (0-99) vanilla 4/4 and then better as he leveled, and the text "level only once per turn", because, man, does that boy take a while to power up.
Aven Fleetwing. Maybe, Goku should have level up, but I specified that this was Goku's most powerful form, so he should be at max level from the beginning. As for cloning, that could work too. However, it depends if the clone(or the person controlling the clone) knows Goku's techniques as well. Captain Ginyu stole Goku's body and couldn't do anything with it, because he didn't have the knowledge of how to do his power ups.
These statements seem incongruent since in the Lore Goku has quite consistently allowed his opponents to get to full power and he himself quite consistently takes time to power up getting the measure of his opponent and such. He has also shown great willingness to take on his oppenents best attacks head on. Nor is he the kind of person to just outright kill someone before the fight even really started
As for Goku letting opponents powerup, that's inconsistent at best. It's more of a Vegeta schtick, to show how superior to his opponents he was. Goku didn't let Ginyu force, Cell etc. go to full power(he went to full power when fighting SSJ2 Gohan) and instead tried to end it by blowing half his body off, infact he told Gohan to finish Cell off quickly as he could powerup and do something crazy. In a match with full knowledge of opponents, Goku would know that there's mind control etc coming up, and try to end it asap.
yea, goku's going to know all about his opponents because he is all about the book learnin'.
In a match with full knowledge, the notion the Bolas is going to lose is *laughable*. Urza is the same; give that man some prep time and he will set you up the bomb.
But could anyone defeat Goku? Obviously yes.
Look, it's simple: Goku power exists in terms of his ability to deal damage and take damage. Goku can deal a bunch of damage physically by punching someone, and by shooting blasts of energy. He can take a bunch of punishment. Also, he can fly.
So Goku is basically a really high power, really high toughness creature with flying, if not a bunch of other key words.
The thing is, we're in the Magic universe. Both in terms of the storyline and in the mechanics of the game there are ways of getting rid of a creature with high toughness. Even if Goku's toughness were 9001, there would be ways of dealing with him in-game.
Storyline-wise, Goku's easy to dispatch. Remember in Cell saga that Goku's put out of commission by a virus that would have killed him had Trunks not come with a cure. So Goku's vulnerable to disease. Remember how black magic has disease spells? Remember how black magic has spells that just kill people outright? Yeah. That'd help.
There's also things like Goku needing to breathe. This means that immersing him in water would kill him. Surrounding him in fire to remove all the oxygen would kill him. Making plants grow into his lungs would kill him. Sending him into deep space would kill him.
In fact, it's actually stated in the novel for Apocalypse that the simplest summoning spell there is is to bring nothing into existence. Bo Levar demonstrates the effectiveness of this when he creates a point of inviolate nothingness that cannot be occupied by any matter, and takes down a dragon engine with a single point of this. A whole lot of nothing could kill Goku.
Goku's extremely powerful, but he's powerful in exactly one way: brute force. Goku's also very resilient, but only to one thing: brute force. This is the world of magic, where anyone adept in Magic can manipulate reality. To such a person, there are as many ways of attacking Goku as a person is capable of imagining.
And if we're talking about old school planeswalkers, how could Goku even fight, let alone win? Traditional planeswalkers' bodies were just manifestations of their will. You cannot kill them by force because their bodies aren't really bodies. Hell, a planeswalker could choose to manifest as a giant Destructo Disk if he wanted to. Or in a body made of pure ki energy.
Plus, if we're talking Bolas level information gathering its not like Dende can protect himself in the slightest
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Not in Dragonball. That's just not how the verse works.
For example, Chaozu is a known mindfreaker, but when he tried to invade Nappa's mind it didn't work because Nappa's power was just so much greater than his. If one's to assume that Chaozu's mind magic is equivalent to Jace's or Nicol Bolas', both Jace and Bolas would be unable to read Goku's thoughts, let alone control him.
As for who could beat him... nobody alive right now, that's for sure. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a hell of a drug, and we now know that Super Saiyan 3 Goku has enough raw strength to punch a hole through a planet 10x as dense as Earth. So yeah. It's a complete massacre of the entire Magic pantheon of characters.
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