Not sure about this whole Emrakul "keeping coming back therefore him wins by default". First off Emrakul doesn't just appear back onto the battlefield. He has to be summoned again, meaning he's back to being a incorporate tentacle monster if he's physical form is destroyed. Since he feeds on colored magic and Goku has none, Emrakul can't do anything to him. I'd give Goku the win by default here as he was able to destroy the physical form of Emrakul and Emrakul wasn't able to do the same to him.
First off, even though we are not using game mechanics, All Is Dust is highly indicative of how the Eldrazi, Emrakul in particular, attack.
And now, allow me to direct you to a quote form the above article. It hovered above the earth, its tentacles draped across a landscape blasted into a barren crater by its passing. In the distance, Gideon could see a ripple in the air around it, like shockwaves of energy vibrating out from its core. The mountains crumbled like sand. The red drained from the rocks, the blue faded from the sky. Life became a void.
Matter LITERALLY CRUMBLES AROUND EMRAKUL. The thing turns the mountains and the landscape to dust without lifting one slimy extremity. Goku would never be able to get close enough to it to attack it with any punches/physical attacks, which leaves only stuff like spirit bomb, kamehameha, etc., all of which I doubt would actually affect Emrakul. It takes a very special type of magic to even interact with the titans, even in corporeal form.
Honestly, All is Dust is not even that impressive in the DBZ universe. Buu was able to kill everyone on the PLANET with one attack that fragmented and shot everyone individually. Perfect Cell was strong enough to destroy the galaxy at the end of his saga.
Also I'm not sure if I buy that only special magic can hurt Emrakul and friends. I sure a giant explosion or enough brute force will do the trick, otherwise it makes the entire Zendikar resistance kind of pointless as no body really had this special magic. But this is all assumption as I haven't read the books.
If Goku can't hurt Emrakul then this ends in a draw, as there's no way Emrakul is fast enough to touch Goku.
Feats > word of mouth (at least about the Cell one). Also, it is also very relevant whether or not Emrakul is in an unbound state. If he is, Goku loses because Emmy eats his universe.
It's ******* magic. You don't get to say "oh, well, he can just hit harder" because thats how Toriyama wrote all of his storylines. Being immune to most things except for something very specific is a long standing fantasy trope that goes back to Beowulf.
Matter crumbles to dust because of the energy radiating off of Emrakul's body. Thats whats happening in All is Dust, right ATDK?, so even the whole "having to spend 7 mana part" is just game mechanics which doesn't matter. What matters is that matter falls apart near emrakul. All is Dust is happening, constantly, around Emrakul's physical manifestation. All of the dangerous things in Zen block are supposed to have been a reaction from Zendikar, as in the PLANE OF EXISTENCE, trying to become as dangerous as possible to stop the Eldrazi.
They failed.
Everyone knows how Goku fights. The second he charges in, because thats the kind of way he fights, he evaporates because what Emrakul does is literally breaking apart the molecular bonds keeping matter together.
Everyone knows how Goku fights. The second he charges in, because thats the kind of way he fights, he evaporates because what Emrakul does is literally breaking apart the molecular bonds keeping matter together.
That's a good point, I never even considered that. Props to you.
It's ******* magic. You don't get to say "oh, well, he can just hit harder" because thats how Toriyama wrote all of his storylines. Being immune to most things except for something very specific is a long standing fantasy trope that goes back to Beowulf.
Matter crumbles to dust because of the energy radiating off of Emrakul's body. Thats whats happening in All is Dust, right ATDK?, so even the whole "having to spend 7 mana part" is just game mechanics which doesn't matter. What matters is that matter falls apart near emrakul. All is Dust is happening, constantly, around Emrakul's physical manifestation. All of the dangerous things in Zen block are supposed to have been a reaction from Zendikar, as in the PLANE OF EXISTENCE, trying to become as dangerous as possible to stop the Eldrazi.
They failed.
Everyone knows how Goku fights. The second he charges in, because thats the kind of way he fights, he evaporates because what Emrakul does is literally breaking apart the molecular bonds keeping matter together.
Don't you think you seem way to emotionally invested in this?
Anyways. As for things that disintegrate, we've seen some in dbz. What happens when an energy blast hits someone without the Ki to hold themselves apart?
The thing is that This fight is turning essentially into Goku Fanboys vs Hategirls.
I think the real questions is how do we want Goku to fight? I think Emrakul is toast, just because it seems "Evil". That is not the type of things Goku would hold back against. I don't doubt that Emrakul is stupid powerful. But she is not "Survive Goku" powerful. Goku takes that fight.
Goku vs Jace is different. Goku might lose the same way The Immortal God Emperor of Mankind lost of Horus. By not deciding to fight back until too late. Goku vs a Jace perceived as evil is like the fastest fight I'd have ever seen. I literally don't think Jace would know what happened (people throw that around a lot, but I actually think Goku would dispatch him before the wizard would be able to assess the situation, that's how you beat Mind Mages easily, and shows the difference in their speeds). If, however, Goku, had no idea what Jace was doing, and let him do his thing multiple time (a la Vegeta) then things don't go as well.
Don't you think you seem way to emotionally invested in this?
Anyways. As for things that disintegrate, we've seen some in dbz. What happens when an energy blast hits someone without the Ki to hold themselves apart?
The thing is that This fight is turning essentially into Goku Fanboys vs Hategirls.
I think the real questions is how do we want Goku to fight? I think Emrakul is toast, just because it seems "Evil". That is not the type of things Goku would hold back against. I don't doubt that Emrakul is stupid powerful. But she is not "Survive Goku" powerful. Goku takes that fight.
Goku vs Jace is different. Goku might lose the same way The Immortal God Emperor of Mankind lost of Horus. By not deciding to fight back until too late. Goku vs a Jace perceived as evil is like the fastest fight I'd have ever seen. I literally don't think Jace would know what happened (people throw that around a lot, but I actually think Goku would dispatch him before the wizard would be able to assess the situation, that's how you beat Mind Mages easily, and shows the difference in their speeds). If, however, Goku, had no idea what Jace was doing, and let him do his thing multiple time (a la Vegeta) then things don't go as well.
Once again, it REALLY depends if Emrakul is in a bound or unbound state. If Emrakul is in an unbound state, Goku, and the rest of his universe, dies. Period. There's not really any debating that. Which is why I'm assuming we're discussing a bound Emrakul.
Honestly, the main problem with this fight is we're not really sure what the Eldrazi's true defensive capabilities are. We know that no one in the MtG universe has been able to stand up to the Titans in actual combat, including the various angels, leviathans and other powerful magical beings of Zendikar. Granted, I don't think anything short of somebody like Iona is a real fight for Goku, but take what you will.
Anyway, I'm still going with Emmy. I think her whole "all-powerful lovecraftian horror" thing has this.
It's ******* magic. You don't get to say "oh, well, he can just hit harder" because thats how Toriyama wrote all of his storylines. Being immune to most things except for something very specific is a long standing fantasy trope that goes back to Beowulf.
Matter crumbles to dust because of the energy radiating off of Emrakul's body. Thats whats happening in All is Dust, right ATDK?, so even the whole "having to spend 7 mana part" is just game mechanics which doesn't matter. What matters is that matter falls apart near emrakul. All is Dust is happening, constantly, around Emrakul's physical manifestation. All of the dangerous things in Zen block are supposed to have been a reaction from Zendikar, as in the PLANE OF EXISTENCE, trying to become as dangerous as possible to stop the Eldrazi.
They failed.
Everyone knows how Goku fights. The second he charges in, because thats the kind of way he fights, he evaporates because what Emrakul does is literally breaking apart the molecular bonds keeping matter together.
Source that Emrakul is immune to all things except that one special Kryptonite? Also where is this Emrakul eating the universe coming from? You mean like slowly eating it like atrophy or something?
Goku is fairly numb but he is not brain dead. He charges right in a things he can actually fight hand to hand. Like humanoids around his size since he is trained as a martial artist. You're acting like if Goku were to fight a giant spaceship his first act would be to fly up to it and punch the hulls. Obviously this is not the case.
Planes in MTG are not that impressive either. They're basically planets according to Wizards themselves. Kind of like Namek.
Once again, it REALLY depends if Emrakul is in a bound or unbound state. If Emrakul is in an unbound state, Goku, and the rest of his universe, dies. Period. There's not really any debating that. Which is why I'm assuming we're discussing a bound Emrakul.
Honestly, the main problem with this fight is we're not really sure what the Eldrazi's true defensive capabilities are. We know that no one in the MtG universe has been able to stand up to the Titans in actual combat, including the various angels, leviathans and other powerful magical beings of Zendikar. Granted, I don't think anything short of somebody like Iona is a real fight for Goku, but take what you will.
Anyway, I'm still going with Emmy. I think her whole "all-powerful lovecraftian horror" thing has this.
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree on the whole "universe dies" point. Planes != Universe. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying Goku can destroy a huge number of planes at once because:
1. It has been proven that some planes are finite.
2. Goku has beaten things that have destroyed galaxies.
Where one is missing the fact that there is no real this in this universe is that in that universe transformation. Planes seem to be the equivalent of a stretch of land that can be small to infinite. Like "Room" to "Infinite size". We don't know which Emmy has eaten in his unbound state nor the mechanics of it.
I still think bound Emmy loses to Goku. Unbound seems weird. It feels like a "WHO WINS? MULTIPLICATION OR A TREE?!". They are on two different states.
I think Pre Mending Bolas could win vs goku. Not in raw power, but with cunning and magic and stuff.
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree on the whole "universe dies" point. Planes != Universe. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying Goku can destroy a huge number of planes at once because:
1. It has been proven that some planes are finite.
2. Goku has beaten things that have destroyed galaxies.
Where one is missing the fact that there is no real this in this universe is that in that universe transformation. Planes seem to be the equivalent of a stretch of land that can be small to infinite. Like "Room" to "Infinite size". We don't know which Emmy has eaten in his unbound state nor the mechanics of it.
I still think bound Emmy loses to Goku. Unbound seems weird. It feels like a "WHO WINS? MULTIPLICATION OR A TREE?!". They are on two different states.
I think Pre Mending Bolas could win vs goku. Not in raw power, but with cunning and magic and stuff.
Most fictional universes are finite in measure, and planes are the MtG equivalent of universes. Small usually, but universes all the same. And just because A > B and B > C, it does not mean A > C (outside of mathematics, of course). But realistically, this debate is kind of pointless anyway, as we don't know if the Eldrazi Titans' physical forms can be harmed in any sense that we know of.
So yeah, PM Bolas Vs. Goku is a much better fight, in which I give the edge to the God-Emperor of Madara.
Bolas would be able to defeat him, since he would take his time to find his weaknesses and goad him into fighting over time with help. If anything, he would probably have Goku fight Vegeta, then quickly finish off the other.
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Bolas would be able to defeat him, since he would take his time to find his weaknesses and goad him into fighting over time with help. If anything, he would probably have Goku fight Vegeta, then quickly finish off the other.
In certain respects, Bolas basic plan (without getting into layered gambits) is Dr. Gero's plan with two exceptions
1. There is no information gap as on Namek
2. Bolas is more tactically and strategically intelligent than any of the villains in DBZ (which is not saying much since I'm a better strategist and tactician than any of the villains in Dragonball Z)
Hell, Bolas would be able to, rather trivially, observe Goku's power growth over time and simply... make him fight the "bosses" out of order.
Like, wtf does Saiyan Saga Goku do against Frieza? Time and time again, Goku only does anything approaching serious training when there is actully a threat in front of him. This is great for the whole "Karate Kid" approach to killing villains, but all Bolas has to do is... wait, pick out a character who is training (like, say, Vegeta in your example) and have them, you know, spend 3-4 month powering up, training, whatever before actually fighting Goku.
Each of the following is a very tiny change to the plot of DBZ and each of them ends with Goku dying (for reals) exceptionally quickly once the first fight scene of Z happens.
Scenario1:
Bolas uses magic to divert raditz pod to a different planet full of people who he is strong enough to beat, but will push him to his limits
Raditz becomes stronger
Raditz arrives slightly later
Goku and Piccolo never stood a chance
Scenario2:
Bolas merely slightly interfers with the time it takes to travel to earth
A full moon or w/e happens during that first fight
Goku and Piccolo never stood a chance
Scenario3:
Bolas pulls an Obi-Wan and telepathically says "Fly you fool" to Raditz when piccolo fires his lazer
Goku and Piccolo never stood a chance
BONUS!
Scenario4:
Bolas interferes with Raditz Ship, he never reaches earth. Vegeta and Nappa never hear about Dragonballs and so never arrive.
A year later the androids show up.
Everyone dies
Bonus2:
Bolas tells Dr. Gero about the Super Saiyan transformation
Dr. Gero delays his plans slightly while he makes his stuff even stronger because science progresses in this universe insaaaaaaanely quickly (just compare 9 to 18)
Everyone dies
Ehhhh
DBZ is plot armor, in spades
MTG is a universe of so many characters anyone and everything can die. Not as popular as DBZ, but its sure as hell plotted more strongly
Also.... I just read Bolas's Wiki page.
Dude doesn't need to be crafty.
Quote from wiki »
Some thousands of years later, Bolas fought a demonic leviathan in what would become the first planeswalker's duel on the still-young plane of Dominaria. The fight lasted a month, reduced Madara to a third of its original size, and created the first temporal rift. In the end the dragon relied upon his touch to defeat his foe. After the battle Bolas feasted on the remains of the leviathan over the course of a year, absorbing its power in the process. When he finished, naught was left besides what eventually became known as the Talon Gates and an assortment of blubber. Bolas regards the Talon Gates as his finest trophy and visits them and Madara as often as he can to relish that victory.
Madaran Emperor[edit]
On Madara three mana lines, blue, black, and red, intersected at a single point that was ideal for Bolas's purposes. His presence had grown so powerful that he required those three lines to anchor himself, lest his presence overwhelm the plane and crack its foundation. Bolas slew the then Empress of Madara and erected his Imperial Shrine on the focal point. From there, he reigned for 400 years as god-emperor of Madara.
So, his fights tear holes in space time.
His raw essence is so powerful to prevent his prescence from cracking the foundation of reality he needs to take precautions.
Thats all pre-mending though, so its cheating
Good thing over the top writing for over the top writings sake is dumb and we can just point at Bolas's ability to talk to people in a way that guarentee's goku fights the end boss early.
Uhh, gents, I made a point of saying "it's cheating because it was pre-mending" to hammer home that Bolas can beat Goku with the power of talking.
Talking, TheEndIsNear, just talking.
Also, I didn't make one argument so that you can go "oh, hey, look its pre-mending"
I specifically made multiple arguments that show the weakness of DBZ's plotting since, with few exceptions, the plot to a DBZ arc, particularly the movies, is kind of like this.
The Z Warriors are at a barbecue/picnic/whatever
A villain shows up.
Goku isn't strong enough to beat the badguy, but not so weak that he actually dies.
Training happens
Goku beats the badguy
Rinse/Repeat, also there are a bunch of powerups because nobody just goes all out at the start because a these are weekly/monthly comics and things need to happen slowly.
Super Buu tore a hole between dimensions when he got mad, then Gotenks copied the feat. Years later, in the movie Battle of the Gods, Goku was clearly stronger than Gohan/Gotenks (stated as well, iirc) so he would replicate the feat if he desired. When Goku first turned Super Saiyan 3, he was sensed across dimensions by the Supreme Kai and his assistant Kabito, I'm unsure if anyone in magic is strong enough to be detected like that.
Speed wise I doubt anyone in magic could perceive him if he moved to attack them.
I also don't know if anyone in MTG has Solar System durability (maybe they do, I honestly have no clue). But we know that Goku could do it, as it was made very clear Cell could. Cell's ability to do it also frankly makes sense with how powers in the series progressed; 1st form Frieza could destroy planets with ease. Cell's final form was godly stronger than that.
once again, no-one in dragon-ball Z can destroy solar systems (or planets, for that matter) with single sharp blasts. You can tell this because when they miss, the planet they are on survives. Can the level mountains? Yep, sure can.
But get over this notion that character X or Y can one-shot solar systems.
once again, no-one in dragon-ball Z can destroy solar systems (or planets, for that matter) with single sharp blasts. You can tell this because when they miss, the planet they are on survives. Can the level mountains? Yep, sure can.
But get over this notion that character X or Y can one-shot solar systems.
I'm pretty sure both Frieza (Namek, Planet Vegeta) and Kid buu both destroyed planets canonly. And many a planet destroying blasts were deflected or reflected by a stronger blast.
I seem to remember a little bit from dbz like when Cell said from that height Goku's blast would destroy the planet but at the last second he used instant transmission to point blank Cell who survived. So damage from Goku can be prevented, deflected, and thwarted by regeneration shields.
That being said, we don't know how the physics work here.
For instance Goku trains at gazillion times Earth gravity but we don't know the difference between the speed of light in either of these worlds versus the other or the speed of magic. Or even the strength of magic vs ki. Examples: How long does it take to power up Goku versus getting a planeswalker to 7 mana? Is kamehama or whatever instant, or sorcery speed? Does it penetrate forcefield? What happens if the first word spoken is Word of Command, or Word of Seizing?
How did Goku come to interact with the mtgcharacter? Did Yawgmoth move in on Goku's planet or did Goku just get punched so hard he flew through the cosmos and crash land at Nicol Bolas' feet? What if he lands in an area experiencing Planar Chaos, Dimensional Breach, Lethal Vapor, etc
What is Goku's cmc?
How does he interact with effects like Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, or Statecraft?
Is Goku a planeswalker with a lot of loyalty abilities? I think he's a legendary creature with some equipment like Pocket full of Sensu Beans and a choice aura or two. Figure of Destiny style but Legendary and Mythic.
I saw an episode of Dragon Ball where a young Goku fought an Easter Bunny with a Midas Touch effect that turns anything he touches into a carrot. Goku wasn't immune to the effect he would have been turned to a carrot. How is this different from Phage's ability?
Goku is very vulnerable to Treachery, he has no way off world the plane in the case of a Planar Collapse of the shard, or universe he's standing in.
Goku is powerful and has a lot of experience with all sorts of bad guys but he doesn't seem well equipped to handle Divine Intervention, Wrath of God, Divine Verdict, etc
How does Goku battle Child of Alara? He's gonna punch a baby? How does he beat Stuffy Doll even?
If he encounters the Cromat, an Eldrazi, Progenitus, or some crazy stuff like that it's all bad for him.
Most big gnarly stuff he has no problem with like B.F.M. He probably 1hitKOs easily .
I think a lot of planeswalkers might cast some wicked spells that might even be on the ban list and Goku just isn't all that in the mtg universe(s)
Remember that Game-play and Story segregation is a thing. You can't assume that just because a blue player can cast a mind control spell in-game; that said tactic would actually work outside of the game.
Goku moves at speeds faster than light, hits hard enough to break planets (including with ranged attacks), and...however his instant transmission technique works, is probably a functional planeswalker.
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First off, even though we are not using game mechanics, All Is Dust is highly indicative of how the Eldrazi, Emrakul in particular, attack.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/84
And now, allow me to direct you to a quote form the above article.
It hovered above the earth, its tentacles draped across a landscape blasted into a barren crater by its passing. In the distance, Gideon could see a ripple in the air around it, like shockwaves of energy vibrating out from its core. The mountains crumbled like sand. The red drained from the rocks, the blue faded from the sky. Life became a void.
Matter LITERALLY CRUMBLES AROUND EMRAKUL. The thing turns the mountains and the landscape to dust without lifting one slimy extremity. Goku would never be able to get close enough to it to attack it with any punches/physical attacks, which leaves only stuff like spirit bomb, kamehameha, etc., all of which I doubt would actually affect Emrakul. It takes a very special type of magic to even interact with the titans, even in corporeal form.
Also I'm not sure if I buy that only special magic can hurt Emrakul and friends. I sure a giant explosion or enough brute force will do the trick, otherwise it makes the entire Zendikar resistance kind of pointless as no body really had this special magic. But this is all assumption as I haven't read the books.
If Goku can't hurt Emrakul then this ends in a draw, as there's no way Emrakul is fast enough to touch Goku.
It's ******* magic. You don't get to say "oh, well, he can just hit harder" because thats how Toriyama wrote all of his storylines. Being immune to most things except for something very specific is a long standing fantasy trope that goes back to Beowulf.
Matter crumbles to dust because of the energy radiating off of Emrakul's body. Thats whats happening in All is Dust, right ATDK?, so even the whole "having to spend 7 mana part" is just game mechanics which doesn't matter. What matters is that matter falls apart near emrakul. All is Dust is happening, constantly, around Emrakul's physical manifestation. All of the dangerous things in Zen block are supposed to have been a reaction from Zendikar, as in the PLANE OF EXISTENCE, trying to become as dangerous as possible to stop the Eldrazi.
They failed.
Everyone knows how Goku fights. The second he charges in, because thats the kind of way he fights, he evaporates because what Emrakul does is literally breaking apart the molecular bonds keeping matter together.
That's a good point, I never even considered that. Props to you.
Don't you think you seem way to emotionally invested in this?
Anyways. As for things that disintegrate, we've seen some in dbz. What happens when an energy blast hits someone without the Ki to hold themselves apart?
http://youtu.be/YB45FE6y_wg?t=2h37m40s
http://youtu.be/mKpDJNshjZY?t=3m35s
The thing is that This fight is turning essentially into Goku Fanboys vs Hategirls.
I think the real questions is how do we want Goku to fight? I think Emrakul is toast, just because it seems "Evil". That is not the type of things Goku would hold back against. I don't doubt that Emrakul is stupid powerful. But she is not "Survive Goku" powerful. Goku takes that fight.
Goku vs Jace is different. Goku might lose the same way The Immortal God Emperor of Mankind lost of Horus. By not deciding to fight back until too late. Goku vs a Jace perceived as evil is like the fastest fight I'd have ever seen. I literally don't think Jace would know what happened (people throw that around a lot, but I actually think Goku would dispatch him before the wizard would be able to assess the situation, that's how you beat Mind Mages easily, and shows the difference in their speeds). If, however, Goku, had no idea what Jace was doing, and let him do his thing multiple time (a la Vegeta) then things don't go as well.
Once again, it REALLY depends if Emrakul is in a bound or unbound state. If Emrakul is in an unbound state, Goku, and the rest of his universe, dies. Period. There's not really any debating that. Which is why I'm assuming we're discussing a bound Emrakul.
Honestly, the main problem with this fight is we're not really sure what the Eldrazi's true defensive capabilities are. We know that no one in the MtG universe has been able to stand up to the Titans in actual combat, including the various angels, leviathans and other powerful magical beings of Zendikar. Granted, I don't think anything short of somebody like Iona is a real fight for Goku, but take what you will.
Anyway, I'm still going with Emmy. I think her whole "all-powerful lovecraftian horror" thing has this.
Source that Emrakul is immune to all things except that one special Kryptonite? Also where is this Emrakul eating the universe coming from? You mean like slowly eating it like atrophy or something?
Goku is fairly numb but he is not brain dead. He charges right in a things he can actually fight hand to hand. Like humanoids around his size since he is trained as a martial artist. You're acting like if Goku were to fight a giant spaceship his first act would be to fly up to it and punch the hulls. Obviously this is not the case.
Planes in MTG are not that impressive either. They're basically planets according to Wizards themselves. Kind of like Namek.
Yeah, I'm going to have to disagree on the whole "universe dies" point. Planes != Universe. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying Goku can destroy a huge number of planes at once because:
1. It has been proven that some planes are finite.
2. Goku has beaten things that have destroyed galaxies.
Where one is missing the fact that there is no real this in this universe is that in that universe transformation. Planes seem to be the equivalent of a stretch of land that can be small to infinite. Like "Room" to "Infinite size". We don't know which Emmy has eaten in his unbound state nor the mechanics of it.
I still think bound Emmy loses to Goku. Unbound seems weird. It feels like a "WHO WINS? MULTIPLICATION OR A TREE?!". They are on two different states.
I think Pre Mending Bolas could win vs goku. Not in raw power, but with cunning and magic and stuff.
Most fictional universes are finite in measure, and planes are the MtG equivalent of universes. Small usually, but universes all the same. And just because A > B and B > C, it does not mean A > C (outside of mathematics, of course). But realistically, this debate is kind of pointless anyway, as we don't know if the Eldrazi Titans' physical forms can be harmed in any sense that we know of.
So yeah, PM Bolas Vs. Goku is a much better fight, in which I give the edge to the God-Emperor of Madara.
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In certain respects, Bolas basic plan (without getting into layered gambits) is Dr. Gero's plan with two exceptions
1. There is no information gap as on Namek
2. Bolas is more tactically and strategically intelligent than any of the villains in DBZ (which is not saying much since I'm a better strategist and tactician than any of the villains in Dragonball Z)
Hell, Bolas would be able to, rather trivially, observe Goku's power growth over time and simply... make him fight the "bosses" out of order.
Like, wtf does Saiyan Saga Goku do against Frieza? Time and time again, Goku only does anything approaching serious training when there is actully a threat in front of him. This is great for the whole "Karate Kid" approach to killing villains, but all Bolas has to do is... wait, pick out a character who is training (like, say, Vegeta in your example) and have them, you know, spend 3-4 month powering up, training, whatever before actually fighting Goku.
Each of the following is a very tiny change to the plot of DBZ and each of them ends with Goku dying (for reals) exceptionally quickly once the first fight scene of Z happens.
Scenario1:
Bolas uses magic to divert raditz pod to a different planet full of people who he is strong enough to beat, but will push him to his limits
Raditz becomes stronger
Raditz arrives slightly later
Goku and Piccolo never stood a chance
Scenario2:
Bolas merely slightly interfers with the time it takes to travel to earth
A full moon or w/e happens during that first fight
Goku and Piccolo never stood a chance
Scenario3:
Bolas pulls an Obi-Wan and telepathically says "Fly you fool" to Raditz when piccolo fires his lazer
Goku and Piccolo never stood a chance
BONUS!
Scenario4:
Bolas interferes with Raditz Ship, he never reaches earth. Vegeta and Nappa never hear about Dragonballs and so never arrive.
A year later the androids show up.
Everyone dies
Bonus2:
Bolas tells Dr. Gero about the Super Saiyan transformation
Dr. Gero delays his plans slightly while he makes his stuff even stronger because science progresses in this universe insaaaaaaanely quickly (just compare 9 to 18)
Everyone dies
Ehhhh
DBZ is plot armor, in spades
MTG is a universe of so many characters anyone and everything can die. Not as popular as DBZ, but its sure as hell plotted more strongly
Also.... I just read Bolas's Wiki page.
Dude doesn't need to be crafty.
So, his fights tear holes in space time.
His raw essence is so powerful to prevent his prescence from cracking the foundation of reality he needs to take precautions.
Thats all pre-mending though, so its cheating
Good thing over the top writing for over the top writings sake is dumb and we can just point at Bolas's ability to talk to people in a way that guarentee's goku fights the end boss early.
Everything after the wiki quote is irrelevant because that was indeed pre mending. Planeswalker fights caused time rifts back then.
Also, individual planes in MTG are tiny compared to the real galaxy.
You are right. I just assumed present time.
Talking, TheEndIsNear, just talking.
Also, I didn't make one argument so that you can go "oh, hey, look its pre-mending"
I specifically made multiple arguments that show the weakness of DBZ's plotting since, with few exceptions, the plot to a DBZ arc, particularly the movies, is kind of like this.
The Z Warriors are at a barbecue/picnic/whatever
A villain shows up.
Goku isn't strong enough to beat the badguy, but not so weak that he actually dies.
Training happens
Goku beats the badguy
Rinse/Repeat, also there are a bunch of powerups because nobody just goes all out at the start because a these are weekly/monthly comics and things need to happen slowly.
The Z Warriors then plan a picnic
Then a badguy shows up
etc
Super Buu tore a hole between dimensions when he got mad, then Gotenks copied the feat. Years later, in the movie Battle of the Gods, Goku was clearly stronger than Gohan/Gotenks (stated as well, iirc) so he would replicate the feat if he desired. When Goku first turned Super Saiyan 3, he was sensed across dimensions by the Supreme Kai and his assistant Kabito, I'm unsure if anyone in magic is strong enough to be detected like that.
Speed wise I doubt anyone in magic could perceive him if he moved to attack them.
I also don't know if anyone in MTG has Solar System durability (maybe they do, I honestly have no clue). But we know that Goku could do it, as it was made very clear Cell could. Cell's ability to do it also frankly makes sense with how powers in the series progressed; 1st form Frieza could destroy planets with ease. Cell's final form was godly stronger than that.
Modern - GB Elves, UW Ojutai Control
Legacy - BWG Junk Stoneblade
Gay and Proud
#MakeAmericaGreatAgain
But get over this notion that character X or Y can one-shot solar systems.
Good question. I'm honestly not quite sure. Also I'm pretty sure Yawgmoth would roflstomp Goku as well.
Yawgmoth is like the RRA on steroids and, himself, was only taken down by a strike force of pre-mending walkers in Power Armor.
Kind of insane, really.
I'm pretty sure both Frieza (Namek, Planet Vegeta) and Kid buu both destroyed planets canonly. And many a planet destroying blasts were deflected or reflected by a stronger blast.
That being said, we don't know how the physics work here.
For instance Goku trains at gazillion times Earth gravity but we don't know the difference between the speed of light in either of these worlds versus the other or the speed of magic. Or even the strength of magic vs ki. Examples: How long does it take to power up Goku versus getting a planeswalker to 7 mana? Is kamehama or whatever instant, or sorcery speed? Does it penetrate forcefield? What happens if the first word spoken is Word of Command, or Word of Seizing?
How did Goku come to interact with the mtgcharacter? Did Yawgmoth move in on Goku's planet or did Goku just get punched so hard he flew through the cosmos and crash land at Nicol Bolas' feet? What if he lands in an area experiencing Planar Chaos, Dimensional Breach, Lethal Vapor, etc
What is Goku's cmc?
How does he interact with effects like Solitary Confinement, Ensnaring Bridge, or Statecraft?
Is Goku a planeswalker with a lot of loyalty abilities? I think he's a legendary creature with some equipment like Pocket full of Sensu Beans and a choice aura or two. Figure of Destiny style but Legendary and Mythic.
I saw an episode of Dragon Ball where a young Goku fought an Easter Bunny with a Midas Touch effect that turns anything he touches into a carrot. Goku wasn't immune to the effect he would have been turned to a carrot. How is this different from Phage's ability?
Goku is very vulnerable to Treachery, he has no way off world the plane in the case of a Planar Collapse of the shard, or universe he's standing in.
Goku is powerful and has a lot of experience with all sorts of bad guys but he doesn't seem well equipped to handle Divine Intervention, Wrath of God, Divine Verdict, etc
How does Goku battle Child of Alara? He's gonna punch a baby? How does he beat Stuffy Doll even?
If he encounters the Cromat, an Eldrazi, Progenitus, or some crazy stuff like that it's all bad for him.
Most big gnarly stuff he has no problem with like B.F.M. He probably 1hitKOs easily .
I think a lot of planeswalkers might cast some wicked spells that might even be on the ban list and Goku just isn't all that in the mtg universe(s)
Goku moves at speeds faster than light, hits hard enough to break planets (including with ranged attacks), and...however his instant transmission technique works, is probably a functional planeswalker.