Thanks Raptor.
Also on a related note, because you are now giving us the moves by using bulbepedia, If were to RP using the Pokedex on a new pokemon to find out its possible moves, could a player establish what the pokemon will learn without having to wait for a major update?
Can Pokemon that do not evolve (Lapras for example) choose any move or moves up to a certain level?
Since there isn't really a good cutoff point for pokemon without evolutions, I'm willing to let trainers choose any move. Let's just try to be reasonable...
For example, a lvl 7 Lapras (ie one move learned beyond what it started with at lvl 5) with Perish Song or Ice Beam shouldn't be too bad but a lvl 7 Lapras with Hydro Pump seems a ridiculous...
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Sorry. More clarification-seeking from me, responding to the free-moves-at-evolution question someone had asked earlier:
For pokemon that learn a move at the same level as they evolve, do they learn that move as soon as we evolve them no matter what? Or do they only learn it if our pokemon is evolving at the level it would in the video game?
For example, Ekans evolves into Arbok and learns crunch at lvl 22 in the game. If I evolve my Ekans early, will it get crunch for free? If I evolve it after learning all the moves on the way so it evolves at lvl 22, will it get crunch for free?
Sorry. More clarification-seeking from me, responding to the free-moves-at-evolution question someone had asked earlier:
For pokemon that learn a move at the same level as they evolve, do they learn that move as soon as we evolve them no matter what? Or do they only learn it if our pokemon is evolving at the level it would in the video game?
For example, Ekans evolves into Arbok and learns crunch at lvl 22 in the game. If I evolve my Ekans early, will it get crunch for free? If I evolve it after learning all the moves on the way so it evolves at lvl 22, will it get crunch for free?
The only way for a pokemon to learn a move for "free" is for it to evolve at the same level it would learn it if it was evolve properly... In other words, if you evolve Ekans earlier (or later) than normal it won't automatically crunch. It will still be able to learn the move, it'll just have to pay full price for it...
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Since there isn't really a good cutoff point for pokemon without evolutions, I'm willing to let trainers choose any move. Let's just try to be reasonable...
For example, a lvl 7 Lapras (ie one move learned beyond what it started with at lvl 5) with Perish Song or Ice Beam shouldn't be too bad but a lvl 7 Lapras with Hydro Pump seems a ridiculous...
Just had a thought . . .
What about non-evolving pokemon only able to learn moves that are NO MORE THAN THREE (3)** steps ahead of their highest ranked move?
Example using Lapras
Lapras' move tree goes as follows . .
0 -- Sing
0 -- Growl
0 -- Water Gun
4 -- Mist
7 -- Confuse Ray
10 -- Ice Shard
14 -- Water Pulse
18 -- Body Slam
22 -- Rain Dance
27 -- Perish Song
32 -- Ice Beam
37 -- Brine
43 -- Safeguard
49 -- Hydro Pump
55 -- Sheer Cold
Let's say a trainer has a Lapras that knows Sing, Water Gun, Mist, and Ice Shard.
Since Ice Shard is it's highest move, it then has the ability to learn Water Pulse, Body Slam, or Rain Dance, but no moves further along the tree until it has learned at least one of those three new moves.
Lapras then learns Body Slam.
Now it has the ability to learn Rain Dance, Perish Song, or Ice Beam.
It then learns Ice Beam, which opens up Brine, Safeguard and Hydro Pump.
What about non-evolving pokemon only able to learn moves that are NO MORE THAN THREE (3)** steps ahead of their highest ranked move?
Example using Lapras
Lapras' move tree goes as follows . .
0 -- Sing
0 -- Growl
0 -- Water Gun
4 -- Mist
7 -- Confuse Ray
10 -- Ice Shard
14 -- Water Pulse
18 -- Body Slam
22 -- Rain Dance
27 -- Perish Song
32 -- Ice Beam
37 -- Brine
43 -- Safeguard
49 -- Hydro Pump
55 -- Sheer Cold
Let's say a trainer has a Lapras that knows Sing, Water Gun, Mist, and Ice Shard.
Since Ice Shard is it's highest move, it then has the ability to learn Water Pulse, Body Slam, or Rain Dance, but no moves further along the tree until it has learned at least one of those three new moves.
Lapras then learns Body Slam.
Now it has the ability to learn Rain Dance, Perish Song, or Ice Beam.
It then learns Ice Beam, which opens up Brine, Safeguard and Hydro Pump.
**(Three is an arbitrary number)
I really like that idea. What do the rest of you think?
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Actually I think this is a fantastic idea for Pokemon in general.
I agree with this -- otherwise we'll still have edge cases like Butterfree learning Bug Buzz at Lv. 12 or even corner cases like Dratini learning Hyper Beam at Lv. 31.
Alternatively, we could base it on each Pokemon's current level number: a Pokemon would only be able to learns moves that it learns within 20 levels (also an arbitrary number) of its current level.
For example...if you catch a wild Lv. 6 Growlithe, it would know the following moves (just like under the current system):
Bite
Roar
Ember
From there, you could have it learn any move it learns at or before Lv. 26 in Gen. IV:
Leer
Odor Sleuth
Helping Hand
Flame Wheel
Reversal
Learning any of these moves would bring Growlithe to Lv. 9 (just like it would under our current system). From there, you could have it learn any of the other moves on that list plusFire Fang, which it learns at Lv. 28.
With that system (or with Immersa's system, if we apply it to all Pokemon like Raikou suggested) we could do away with the "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction.
I'd even consider taking it one step further and changing the evolution system altogether: you would still have to put 10/20/whatever EXP towards learning evolution, but learning evolution wouldn't raise the Pokemon's level (so if that Lv. 6 Growlithe learned evolution, it would still be Lv. 6 and could still only learn everything up through Reversal). The advantage to that is being able to link to a Pokemon's "Pokedex page" and knowing what moves it can learn without having to worry about what level it evolves at -- it would keep moves and evolution apart from each other, but still bound by the same rules.
I like immersa's system. In an announcement for it, I'd just say that it should be clarified that moves learned at the same level count as a single step. For example, butterfree learns all three powder moves at the same time, so that should just constitute one step.
The other question is how evolution fits in. Does it count as a step?
Also just to make sure immersa, you still intend that we be able to go back and learn any and all earlier moves, right?
The other question is how evolution fits in. Does it count as a step?
That's still too confusing, I think. Because evolution isn't considered part of a Pokemon's "learnset" (the level of evolution isn't included on each Pokemon's learnset page on Bulbapedia, for example), it's not intuitive to think of evolution in the same way as moves. I love how an unevolved Pokemon has to put EXP towards learning evolution under the current system, but I don't think that should count as a step by raising that Pokemon's level.
Now that I think about it more, the unfortunate thing about Immersa's system is that we actually couldn't apply it to unevolved Pokemon. Dratini would be able to learn Hyper Beam at Lv. 21 in that case. And if you kept the old "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction the system would wind up very convoluted.
Level 22 Hydro Pump seems a bit fast. If you made it so learning a lower level move cost more xp I'd be fine with this. Rushing to Hydro Pump would make it take longer overall to complete their moveset. This system shouldnt carry over to all pokemon ihmo. The evolution tier system works really well as is.
At first I liked Immersa's idea, then I still liked it but thought that it would take forever to get a Flygon with earthquake (Trapinch Lv. 73) and that I would have to forget about it ever knowing fissure (Trapinch Lv. 89), but then I realized that if I added Hyper Beam to the list of moves that I might have learned by my Trapinch it would only take one move extra and its not like hyper beam is a bad thing.
So Immersa's idea gets my full support, whatever that's worth (currently .2 on the open market)
Now that I think about it more, the unfortunate thing about Immersa's system is that we actually couldn't apply it to unevolved Pokemon. Dratini would be able to learn Hyper Beam at Lv. 21 in that case. And if you kept the old "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction the system would wind up very convoluted.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm too lazy to go look through the forums for it), but I thought that pokemon that had evolutions could only learn moves before their evolutino level, then had to put experience into that evolution trigger before continuing with moves.
If I'm wrong, then a Dratini that accelerates to Hyper Beam, or any pokemon that accelerates to a powerful move quickly, will still be considered a lower level pokemon and the move thereby being deemed less effective even though it is still somewhat powerful.
ie: Dratini's Hyper Beam << Dragonair's Hyper Beam <<<< Dragonite's Hyper Beam
We could, however, make a decision that pokemon need to learn at least 3-4 pre-evolution moves before learning the evolution trigger (or all the moves if less than the chosen number), and then doing the 3-step rule if they choose to not evolve and keep learning moves.
So a starting Dratini would have Wrap, Leer, Thunder Wave.
It would then have to learn THREE (3)** of the following: Twister, Dragon Rage, Slam, Agility
Now it can learn the fourth move or evolution trigger.
Once it learns the trigger, the three-step rule then applies. So say it learned Agility, then the evolution trigger, but chose to continue learning moves instead of evolving right away. Three steps means it can now learn Aqua Tail, Dragon Rush, or Safeguard, and continue the process as though it were a non-evolving pokemon until it decides to complete the evolution.
Curious, I find your counter-proposal very interesting. I think either your's or Immersa's system would work wonderfully (probably a lot better than the one I hammer'd together.) Right now I'm leanning towards yours rather than Immersa's since its more intutive and it's easier to get a grasp on how it works. If we wind up moving to this system, I'd change Evolution to not be in the move tree (It'd still have to be "Researched" but it wouldn't increase the pokemon's level and therefore it wouldn't effect the pokemon's learnable moves...)
The question is "Is 20 lvls too much? Not enough? Or is it perfect?"
Edit: wow lots of thoughts in a short period of time... Let me think a little bit longer...
I think the level system is hard just because choosing a number for which it's balanced is so hard. That's why I like Immersa's system. I think that applying Immersa's to evolving pokemon should include evolution as a step in the sequence, but a step that absolutely must be learned before subsequent steps. To use my Numel (serebii link for context) as an example, right now it's learning Take Down. After that, it could learn up to Evolution, which is the third step after Take Down. But even if I learned Lava Plume next, it could still only learn so far as evolution, because of the evolution road block thing.
After I teach it evolution, though, it could then learn Earth Power, Earthquake, or Flamethrower.
Whether or not we use the level system or the step system, I think that moves above the evolution level should be blocked until evolution is learned. I also think 20 seems high for a level number, while three seems perfect for a steps number.
20 levels is easily grokable and fits what we have already. As said before I think learning old moves should take more xp. Would on evolution moves stay the same in this system?
I think the level system is hard just because choosing a number for which it's balanced is so hard. That's why I like Immersa's system. I think that applying Immersa's to evolving pokemon should include evolution as a step in the sequence, but a step that absolutely must be learned before subsequent steps. To use my Numel (serebii link for context) as an example, right now it's learning Take Down. After that, it could learn up to Evolution, which is the third step after Take Down. But even if I learned Lava Plume next, it could still only learn so far as evolution, because of the evolution road block thing.
That is exactly my thoughts behind the "Learn X pre-evolution moves before you can learn your evolution trigger" idea
Guys I just realized something, Vaern's character (Ike) is going to have a gyarados in a couple more battles. We should all watch his QBU because it is going to be AWESOME!!
On a more related note I also agree that with Socrates about the evolution block, it will keep things balanced.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm too lazy to go look through the forums for it), but I thought that pokemon that had evolutions could only learn moves before their evolutino level, then had to put experience into that evolution trigger before continuing with moves.
Yep, that's what I was (vaguely) calling the "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction. And following all of that leads to a very complicated system. It's no question a well-thought-out and balanced system, but still a complicated one.
The main reason I'm leaning toward a simpler system is the number of misunderstandings we've already had with the current system (well, some of them have come from me, so maybe I should keep quiet :tongue:)
My last complaint I'll make against a level system is that it discourages evolving your pokémon, since evolved pokémon generally learn their moves at later, more spaced out levels. And I don't think the three step system is too complicated.
EDIT: On the other hand, the level system is much slower, since even if you learn a move 20 levels ahead of your pokémon, your pokémon itself doesn't gain that many levels, and you probably only "unlock" one more move. (For example, a lvl 23 Stantler wouldn't unlock ANY new moves for it's list when it learned something.) With the step system, you get to unlock more at once, which creates excitement.
Besides, as long as the Game Leaders understand the system, players can just ask "Hey, what moves can my pokémon learn?"
EDIT EDIT EDIT: One last consideration which may prove interesting in this debate and just in the game in general is that some of this depends on what level we will be encountering wild pokémon at once our own teams get stronger. If we are catching level 30-40 pokemon, the level system will likely make all their moves be immediately learnable, while the step system may or may not.
Also on a related note, because you are now giving us the moves by using bulbepedia, If were to RP using the Pokedex on a new pokemon to find out its possible moves, could a player establish what the pokemon will learn without having to wait for a major update?
Come on and check it out. You know you want to.
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Since there isn't really a good cutoff point for pokemon without evolutions, I'm willing to let trainers choose any move. Let's just try to be reasonable...
For example, a lvl 7 Lapras (ie one move learned beyond what it started with at lvl 5) with Perish Song or Ice Beam shouldn't be too bad but a lvl 7 Lapras with Hydro Pump seems a ridiculous...
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For pokemon that learn a move at the same level as they evolve, do they learn that move as soon as we evolve them no matter what? Or do they only learn it if our pokemon is evolving at the level it would in the video game?
For example, Ekans evolves into Arbok and learns crunch at lvl 22 in the game. If I evolve my Ekans early, will it get crunch for free? If I evolve it after learning all the moves on the way so it evolves at lvl 22, will it get crunch for free?
The only way for a pokemon to learn a move for "free" is for it to evolve at the same level it would learn it if it was evolve properly... In other words, if you evolve Ekans earlier (or later) than normal it won't automatically crunch. It will still be able to learn the move, it'll just have to pay full price for it...
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Just had a thought . . .
What about non-evolving pokemon only able to learn moves that are NO MORE THAN THREE (3)** steps ahead of their highest ranked move?
Example using Lapras
Lapras' move tree goes as follows . .
0 -- Sing
0 -- Growl
0 -- Water Gun
4 -- Mist
7 -- Confuse Ray
10 -- Ice Shard
14 -- Water Pulse
18 -- Body Slam
22 -- Rain Dance
27 -- Perish Song
32 -- Ice Beam
37 -- Brine
43 -- Safeguard
49 -- Hydro Pump
55 -- Sheer Cold
Let's say a trainer has a Lapras that knows Sing, Water Gun, Mist, and Ice Shard.
Since Ice Shard is it's highest move, it then has the ability to learn Water Pulse, Body Slam, or Rain Dance, but no moves further along the tree until it has learned at least one of those three new moves.
Lapras then learns Body Slam.
Now it has the ability to learn Rain Dance, Perish Song, or Ice Beam.
It then learns Ice Beam, which opens up Brine, Safeguard and Hydro Pump.
**(Three is an arbitrary number)
Come on and check it out. You know you want to.
I really like that idea. What do the rest of you think?
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Emille, Seven-Sting Dancer Shalin Nariya
I agree with this -- otherwise we'll still have edge cases like Butterfree learning Bug Buzz at Lv. 12 or even corner cases like Dratini learning Hyper Beam at Lv. 31.
Alternatively, we could base it on each Pokemon's current level number: a Pokemon would only be able to learns moves that it learns within 20 levels (also an arbitrary number) of its current level.
For example...if you catch a wild Lv. 6 Growlithe, it would know the following moves (just like under the current system):
From there, you could have it learn any move it learns at or before Lv. 26 in Gen. IV:
Learning any of these moves would bring Growlithe to Lv. 9 (just like it would under our current system). From there, you could have it learn any of the other moves on that list plus Fire Fang, which it learns at Lv. 28.
With that system (or with Immersa's system, if we apply it to all Pokemon like Raikou suggested) we could do away with the "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction.
I'd even consider taking it one step further and changing the evolution system altogether: you would still have to put 10/20/whatever EXP towards learning evolution, but learning evolution wouldn't raise the Pokemon's level (so if that Lv. 6 Growlithe learned evolution, it would still be Lv. 6 and could still only learn everything up through Reversal). The advantage to that is being able to link to a Pokemon's "Pokedex page" and knowing what moves it can learn without having to worry about what level it evolves at -- it would keep moves and evolution apart from each other, but still bound by the same rules.
The other question is how evolution fits in. Does it count as a step?
Also just to make sure immersa, you still intend that we be able to go back and learn any and all earlier moves, right?
That's still too confusing, I think. Because evolution isn't considered part of a Pokemon's "learnset" (the level of evolution isn't included on each Pokemon's learnset page on Bulbapedia, for example), it's not intuitive to think of evolution in the same way as moves. I love how an unevolved Pokemon has to put EXP towards learning evolution under the current system, but I don't think that should count as a step by raising that Pokemon's level.
Now that I think about it more, the unfortunate thing about Immersa's system is that we actually couldn't apply it to unevolved Pokemon. Dratini would be able to learn Hyper Beam at Lv. 21 in that case. And if you kept the old "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction the system would wind up very convoluted.
So, a Growlithe that knows Bite, Roar, Leer, and Flame Wheel would be able to learn Ember, Odor Sleuth, Helping Hand, or Reversal.
So Immersa's idea gets my full support, whatever that's worth (currently .2 on the open market)
Come on and check it out. You know you want to.
Absolutely. Any moves that were 'skipped' are still learnable.
Correct me if I'm wrong (and I'm too lazy to go look through the forums for it), but I thought that pokemon that had evolutions could only learn moves before their evolutino level, then had to put experience into that evolution trigger before continuing with moves.
If I'm wrong, then a Dratini that accelerates to Hyper Beam, or any pokemon that accelerates to a powerful move quickly, will still be considered a lower level pokemon and the move thereby being deemed less effective even though it is still somewhat powerful.
ie: Dratini's Hyper Beam << Dragonair's Hyper Beam <<<< Dragonite's Hyper Beam
We could, however, make a decision that pokemon need to learn at least 3-4 pre-evolution moves before learning the evolution trigger (or all the moves if less than the chosen number), and then doing the 3-step rule if they choose to not evolve and keep learning moves.
So a starting Dratini would have Wrap, Leer, Thunder Wave.
It would then have to learn THREE (3)** of the following: Twister, Dragon Rage, Slam, Agility
Now it can learn the fourth move or evolution trigger.
Once it learns the trigger, the three-step rule then applies. So say it learned Agility, then the evolution trigger, but chose to continue learning moves instead of evolving right away. Three steps means it can now learn Aqua Tail, Dragon Rush, or Safeguard, and continue the process as though it were a non-evolving pokemon until it decides to complete the evolution.
** (again, three chosen arbitrarily)
The question is "Is 20 lvls too much? Not enough? Or is it perfect?"
Edit: wow lots of thoughts in a short period of time... Let me think a little bit longer...
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EDIT:
I was referring to Immersa's post above Raptor's.
Come on and check it out. You know you want to.
After I teach it evolution, though, it could then learn Earth Power, Earthquake, or Flamethrower.
Whether or not we use the level system or the step system, I think that moves above the evolution level should be blocked until evolution is learned. I also think 20 seems high for a level number, while three seems perfect for a steps number.
Edit: Should definitely keep evolution tiers.
That is exactly my thoughts behind the "Learn X pre-evolution moves before you can learn your evolution trigger" idea
On a more related note I also agree that with Socrates about the evolution block, it will keep things balanced.
Come on and check it out. You know you want to.
Yep, that's what I was (vaguely) calling the "can't learn moves it can't learn before evolution" restriction. And following all of that leads to a very complicated system. It's no question a well-thought-out and balanced system, but still a complicated one.
The main reason I'm leaning toward a simpler system is the number of misunderstandings we've already had with the current system (well, some of them have come from me, so maybe I should keep quiet :tongue:)
Which is balanced, but still complicated.
EDIT: On the other hand, the level system is much slower, since even if you learn a move 20 levels ahead of your pokémon, your pokémon itself doesn't gain that many levels, and you probably only "unlock" one more move. (For example, a lvl 23 Stantler wouldn't unlock ANY new moves for it's list when it learned something.) With the step system, you get to unlock more at once, which creates excitement.
Besides, as long as the Game Leaders understand the system, players can just ask "Hey, what moves can my pokémon learn?"
EDIT EDIT EDIT: One last consideration which may prove interesting in this debate and just in the game in general is that some of this depends on what level we will be encountering wild pokémon at once our own teams get stronger. If we are catching level 30-40 pokemon, the level system will likely make all their moves be immediately learnable, while the step system may or may not.