Since we are treating the satchel as enough of a library for purposes of milling and dredge, I would rule that Haunting Echoes would treat the satchel exactly the same way.
Okay, that's the clarification I was looking for. Now I understand and agree with it being banned.
You could, or you could wait till someone chooses it and trys to use it b-cuz they didn't read the rules thoroughly and then tell them...but then it's too late to exchange that spell for a different one and they're left with a useless spell and spent mana. MWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
*ahem* Or you could just ban it.
You know, in this case, I agree with WUBRG. I think that we should assume our players, as they have the skills to work a keyboard and write with minimal spelling and grammatical errors, are intelligent enough to understand what works and what does not. We have posted the rules, we are posting the massive amounts of updates as they become available in the announcements thread that video set up, if the player does not read, then it's not our fault.
Never forget: there's always someone bigger, better and stronger than you.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God?
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Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
Any more thoughts on Life burst and cards that get much better the more of they you have in the yard? They seem rather good due to players haveing access to all 4 of them every game... tho it does seem like the 4th one is always the one that makes you think about it. Life burst is a 40 life boost in one 4 cast gem, that just seems rather good to me, even if I am a white mage.
Regarding Life Burst, there is a limiting factor on the card. In our setting, character's life total cannot rise above 30, so I see no need to limit castings of that particular spell.
Second, I believe I said that I don't want to see, and will not take the time to consider, proposals for cards that are "like" another card. If you want to discuss multiple cards, please list every card. In fact, just to reiterate:
If I read a comparison post considering multiple cards and only using one as an example (see the post regarding Life Burst two back), then I will only consider the named card and discuss it. Any votes regarding the similar cards will automatically be "No, leave them as they are" from me.
As such, MAXedOUT, I will have to say that there really is no problem with Life Burst and that's all that you have asked me to consider at this time.
Besides, I fail to see the problem with Life Burst. Let's say, for one instance, that you play the spell against a foe on a quest. You just gained 4 life. Fine. Now, let's say, for giggles, that I'm running a green-blue mage (if I was running black, I would just Extirpate it away). You get the first one off. Fine, it's cheap. By the time you get the second one off, I've got four mana open, two of it blue and I just Quash it. No more card for you!
Never forget: there's always someone bigger, better and stronger than you.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God?
Quote from Me »
Stupidity cannot be tolerated. Idiots thrive on the indulgence of society's "understanding."
Quote from Fenris »
PUPPIES AND BUNNIES!!
A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Quote from Me »
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
Besides, I fail to see the problem with Life Burst. Let's say, for one instance, that you play the spell against a foe on a quest. You just gained 4 life. Fine. Now, let's say, for giggles, that I'm running a green-blue mage (if I was running black, I would just Extirpate it away). You get the first one off. Fine, it's cheap. By the time you get the second one off, I've got four mana open, two of it blue and I just Quash it. No more card for you!
Well, by this logic, you can use Quash/Extirpate so say any spell is fair, since a Blue mage will likely only let you get a single cast off of any spell. Not ever blue mage has Quash (in fact, no one does right now), and not every black mage has Extirpate.
And this just begs the question: when you mod a quest, do you determine the NPC's satchels beforehand?
Regarding Life Burst, there is a limiting factor on the card. In our setting, character's life total cannot rise above 30, so I see no need to limit castings of that particular spell.
I have never heard of this rule, but it sounds fair.
And this just begs the question: when you mod a quest, do you determine the NPC's satchels beforehand?
I do, but i often I have to make it more difficult if my NPC(s) get beaten too easily (cough, cough, Wirewood Escort, cough) Sorry I have a cold.
I have a large selection of spell satchels of all strengths created and catalogued. When I am running a quest, I decide the number of encounters and roll several times with my actual dice on the development table I created on Excel. I usually throw in a few more than there are planned encounters and, in those circumstances, I have the player roll to see which specific encounter he/she manages to activate for a planned moment.
And I will categorically say that, except for one circumstance, I have never altered or added to an encounter satchel or made one up on the fly.
Oh, and I was informed by Fenris about this rule regarding life totals when Devlin signed up for Inter-House Competition, as he runs a creature with lifelink that he makes really big.
Edited addition: Adding Browbeat to voting for restriction. Have tested and found it nasty either gives three extra spells for the turn that it's played or it deals 5 damage to an opponent. I will, of course, listen to any comments regarding it.
Never forget: there's always someone bigger, better and stronger than you.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God?
Quote from Me »
Stupidity cannot be tolerated. Idiots thrive on the indulgence of society's "understanding."
Quote from Fenris »
PUPPIES AND BUNNIES!!
A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Quote from Me »
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
The burn from any color isn't the problem . . . I think. I think it's the fact that it's 4 damage for 3 mana for a red mage.
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Never forget: there's always someone bigger, better and stronger than you.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God?
Quote from Me »
Stupidity cannot be tolerated. Idiots thrive on the indulgence of society's "understanding."
Quote from Fenris »
PUPPIES AND BUNNIES!!
A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Quote from Me »
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
Personally, I feel Flame Javelin should be restricted, as a worst case scenario. It does seem pretty abusable, but not so excessively that it should be outright banned.
I tend to side with howler13 on this one. The card is ballenced at 3 red mana for 4 damage.
The only issues that I have is that in the arena, as far as I know, you only start with 15 life. That is why the red-mage seems more unfair than the other colors. M:tG revolves around the 20 life at the start of the game, and all the life gain and burn start at this base equasion accounting for the mana to damage ratio.
Arena needs to start at 20 life to give the other mages a shot.
My recent arena encounter got me thinking: how would we go about banning combos? (Two card that separately are fine, but used together are just plain unfair/unfun.) Example: Order of the Stars + Pariah, used againt me in the arena, is pretty much a lock against most mages (since most of us are still monocolored), unless they're carrying some form of enchantment removal (i.e. are white or green, and most of our W or G mages don't). Individually, both cards are fair, or at least easy to work around, so I don't think they should be banned; but together, they're crippling. How do we handle that sort of thing?
I know, I'm speaking generally, which some of you don't like, but I think it's a fair debate to raise.
Yea it is way overpowered in the arena. A red mage has very few outs Vs. that combo, and all of them are artifacts, I think... It could warrent some looking into.
Ghostfire? That seems to be the only red answer for that combo in standard.
There's been some PM discussion among us WPLs about this past arena battle. It was quickly determined that the only color that MAXedOUT's combo truly hoses is red. Black, blue and green have so many solutions to the problem (especially Blue), and the combo won't work against white at all. Any one artifact creature in any satchel shuts the combo down completely. One attack with the artifact creature that gets through and the Order of the Stars dies.
Protection only works on targeted spells, creatures and damage. If a spell is non-damaging and mass-effecting, it overcomes protection.
Proposing a new card for consideration: Leyline of the Meekand perhaps Leyline of Lightning. I don't think Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Singularity or Leyline of Lifeforce are worth considering, but I will entertain discussions. My reason behind the white leyline is simple: anyone who runs tokens and has this spell can begin a fight with all four active before casting anything, as it's effect does not meet the criteria we (the WPLs) have set up for counting a non-cast of a spell against the spells per turn limitation per player. So the player who uses this and runs tokens can place a token that would normally be a 1/1, say, and instead the token is 5/5.
Never forget: there's always someone bigger, better and stronger than you.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God?
Quote from Me »
Stupidity cannot be tolerated. Idiots thrive on the indulgence of society's "understanding."
Quote from Fenris »
PUPPIES AND BUNNIES!!
A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Quote from Me »
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
The way I see Flame Javelin working... is it is the same spell as Fireblast, except it doesn't have the ZERO effective Casting Cost ability that Fireblast has. That alone makes it less playable than Fireblast. And any Red Mage worth his salt is going to go out of his way to abuse damage spells such as Shock, Tarfire, Lightning Bolt, Rift Bolt, Shard Volley, Incinerate and a whole lot of other unbalanced burn spells. And if they can get a spell that does 4 damage, they are going to take it whether it has a draw back or not. I know of plenty of Red Mages in any format who are more than willing to play Flame Rift or Fireblast, or Char. The only real advantage that Flame Javelin has over any of the other burn spells, is that it has no real definitive draw backs. However that in and of itself isn't going to stop a Red Mage from finding a way to deal 4 damage to you, in fact it isn't going to stop a Red Mage from finding MULTIPLE ways to deal 4 damage to you depending on the format!
So ban it because it has no draw backs, sure, Red Mages still have 3 spells available to them that deal 4 damage for equal or less casting cost than the Flame Javelin. Ban them as well why don't you?
P.S. And in all honesty, if I am going to be in a multiplayer match... I think I would like the Flame Rift over the Flame Javelin personally.
For Leyline of the Meek, I say Restrict, with a rule stating that only one (If any) can be laid out free...perhaps even with a roll to see if it happens or not. Just my 2 cents.
For the leylines it should be a rolling thing. In typical magic the leylines only have an x in 60 chance of being in your starting hand. We should treat them the same way. Also as they are 0 cost being played for free I would rule that they apply to the 0 spell rule in which they can only be played once a turn therefore negating the multiples effect.
Now as for flame javilin I can see the argument to keep it around but I suppose we really don't have to worry about it to much untill you actually gain access to Lorwyn and then after unlock Shadowmoor. Untill that I don't have much to worry about.
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Except the leylines don't say "without paying its mana cost" or have a casting cost of 0. They just state that, if the leyline is in hand, the player may begin the game (fight, in our system) with the leyline in play. It's a side effect of the card, just like the free land granted by Elvish Pioneer. We don't count that effect as a spell for the turn, even though that technically has a 0-cost as well.
Also, why should this card, and only this card, be ruled by the random percentage effects that are inherent in the CCG when we don't do the same to the others? That seems inherently unfair to me and distinctly illogical. It should either be all or nothing, simply to be consistent. And, since we have been working with no cards falling under this randomness, then we should do the same here.
Really, only the white one stacks with itself. Having multiples of the other four in play have no extra effect (or are impossible, in the case of the blue Leyline).
So maybe we should restrict all the Leyline spells.
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Never forget: there's always someone bigger, better and stronger than you.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God?
Quote from Me »
Stupidity cannot be tolerated. Idiots thrive on the indulgence of society's "understanding."
Quote from Fenris »
PUPPIES AND BUNNIES!!
A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Quote from Me »
Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion.
As I said before, I can live with a restrict. And I feel there should be a roll, or randomization to determine whether there's a free cast of it, as opposed to an assumed presence. Just to balance it a bit.
Credit for banner goes to: a passer by
World of Pokemon---------------------------Michael Syne
Magic the RPG-------------------------------Forace
Community Project(Fantasy)-----------------Sammy Matthews
Disegreth-----------------------------------Sussania
The Pen and Paper Inn(Project PlanarChaos)--Valarie Liadon
*ahem* Or you could just ban it.
According to this study I should be deaf by now.
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It shouldn't be "dies"
It shouldn't be "is put into the graveyard from the battlefield"
It should be "is put into the graveyard from play"
So, WUBRG, based on your sig, you're right again.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God? A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Second, I believe I said that I don't want to see, and will not take the time to consider, proposals for cards that are "like" another card. If you want to discuss multiple cards, please list every card. In fact, just to reiterate:
If I read a comparison post considering multiple cards and only using one as an example (see the post regarding Life Burst two back), then I will only consider the named card and discuss it. Any votes regarding the similar cards will automatically be "No, leave them as they are" from me.
As such, MAXedOUT, I will have to say that there really is no problem with Life Burst and that's all that you have asked me to consider at this time.
Besides, I fail to see the problem with Life Burst. Let's say, for one instance, that you play the spell against a foe on a quest. You just gained 4 life. Fine. Now, let's say, for giggles, that I'm running a green-blue mage (if I was running black, I would just Extirpate it away). You get the first one off. Fine, it's cheap. By the time you get the second one off, I've got four mana open, two of it blue and I just Quash it. No more card for you!
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God? A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Well, by this logic, you can use Quash/Extirpate so say any spell is fair, since a Blue mage will likely only let you get a single cast off of any spell. Not ever blue mage has Quash (in fact, no one does right now), and not every black mage has Extirpate.
And this just begs the question: when you mod a quest, do you determine the NPC's satchels beforehand?
I do, but i often I have to make it more difficult if my NPC(s) get beaten too easily (cough, cough, Wirewood Escort, cough) Sorry I have a cold.
Credit for banner goes to: a passer by
World of Pokemon---------------------------Michael Syne
Magic the RPG-------------------------------Forace
Community Project(Fantasy)-----------------Sammy Matthews
Disegreth-----------------------------------Sussania
The Pen and Paper Inn(Project PlanarChaos)--Valarie Liadon
And I will categorically say that, except for one circumstance, I have never altered or added to an encounter satchel or made one up on the fly.
Oh, and I was informed by Fenris about this rule regarding life totals when Devlin signed up for Inter-House Competition, as he runs a creature with lifelink that he makes really big.
Edited addition: Adding Browbeat to voting for restriction. Have tested and found it nasty either gives three extra spells for the turn that it's played or it deals 5 damage to an opponent. I will, of course, listen to any comments regarding it.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God? A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God? A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
P.S. Not attacking you personally, Ti'rin.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
The only issues that I have is that in the arena, as far as I know, you only start with 15 life. That is why the red-mage seems more unfair than the other colors. M:tG revolves around the 20 life at the start of the game, and all the life gain and burn start at this base equasion accounting for the mana to damage ratio.
Arena needs to start at 20 life to give the other mages a shot.
I know, I'm speaking generally, which some of you don't like, but I think it's a fair debate to raise.
RIP Krensae Fluidtail: Sleep well with the fish
Ghostfire? That seems to be the only red answer for that combo in standard.
Protection only works on targeted spells, creatures and damage. If a spell is non-damaging and mass-effecting, it overcomes protection.
Examples of this are: Damnation, Hideous Laughter, Wrath of God, Engineered Plague, Evacuation
Proposing a new card for consideration: Leyline of the Meek and perhaps Leyline of Lightning. I don't think Leyline of the Void, Leyline of Singularity or Leyline of Lifeforce are worth considering, but I will entertain discussions. My reason behind the white leyline is simple: anyone who runs tokens and has this spell can begin a fight with all four active before casting anything, as it's effect does not meet the criteria we (the WPLs) have set up for counting a non-cast of a spell against the spells per turn limitation per player. So the player who uses this and runs tokens can place a token that would normally be a 1/1, say, and instead the token is 5/5.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God? A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
So ban it because it has no draw backs, sure, Red Mages still have 3 spells available to them that deal 4 damage for equal or less casting cost than the Flame Javelin. Ban them as well why don't you?
P.S. And in all honesty, if I am going to be in a multiplayer match... I think I would like the Flame Rift over the Flame Javelin personally.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!
Now as for flame javilin I can see the argument to keep it around but I suppose we really don't have to worry about it to much untill you actually gain access to Lorwyn and then after unlock Shadowmoor. Untill that I don't have much to worry about.
Also, why should this card, and only this card, be ruled by the random percentage effects that are inherent in the CCG when we don't do the same to the others? That seems inherently unfair to me and distinctly illogical. It should either be all or nothing, simply to be consistent. And, since we have been working with no cards falling under this randomness, then we should do the same here.
Really, only the white one stacks with itself. Having multiples of the other four in play have no extra effect (or are impossible, in the case of the blue Leyline).
So maybe we should restrict all the Leyline spells.
Someone once asked me why, when I talk about House Dimir, I don't put the word "the" in front of it.
At the time, I had no answer, but it just came to me.
Do we put the word "the" in front of God? A Storyteller is not a GM. A GM is God. God is one of the Storyteller's little minions.
The creator of Maro's Magic 8-Ball!