I don't see why the majority of attacking should be done with magic at all. There's no precedent for it in most fantasy settings. In fact, in most systems, fighting with a weapon is far and away the 'norm', with magic as a relatively rare phenomenon. Even if magic is common, we should still encourage and support martial characters. (Martial characters might even need extra support if a disproportionately large number of players favor magic-users.)
I agree, the point of having martial warriors and arcane casters together is that wizards are generally taken down easily by a warrior they let him or her wander too close. The other physical fighters at least (often they are more important) keep the enemy warriors attacking the spellcasters while they're busy focusing on the enemy wizards.
Also, if everyone had to cast spells (which I personally am not planning on doing at all), this would seem way to much like Magic the RPG.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'll bet you wish you had a non-unglued/unhinged card that shared your first name.
In some ways balance is almost a non-issue in the game, since there are so few numbers. Versatility is the hardest thing to control, and we can handle that by limiting the range of spells that any given caster can use (at least initially), and we can limit a caster's offensive power by making mighty offensive spells difficult to use. It's not really a matter of the number of spells a magic-user can employ, but the versatility they can achieve with those spells. The ability to teleport is, on its own, incredibly versatile, whereas two dozen minor short-range attack spells don't add much versatility to the character. Casters aren't by definition at an advantage because they can attack from range if it takes fifteen seconds to cast a fireball spell; they'd need to do it from hiding or from a safe location, like atop a roof, or at least against an otherwise occupied opponent. Because players are required to roleplay their own balance, finicky details of balance in terms of how powerful offensive abilities are less of an issue in my mind than "the wizard can magic away every obstacle we encounter".
I have a dislike for a 'just magic' RP so extreme that I cannot even put it into words.
I'll give you an example of how versatile a spell can be. We had a spell that allowed you to shape two cups of water. So people would shape them into sword-sharp daggers or darts and toss them at people. The spell had to be reworded that you can only shape it to a degree that you can see, and it's not possible to see the actual razor's edge, due to the sharpness. If we make spells a big thing, they need to be controlled.
I prefer to combine a 'stamina' issue with a 'concentration' issue. Any given person can only cast X many spells of a certain difficulty before they're too fatigued and have to stop. It's sometimes a per-post thing. But if we put the spells into tiers (first, second, third, in order of difficulty of the spell) and put the powerful spells in the higher tiers, then say the higher tiers can only be cast every other post...
As well, as per concentration, a mage has to not only say the words, but they may have hand gestures. Sorta like D&D. If we say they get their concentration interrupted, the spell fizzles.
With these in place, a caster with a third tier spell, a huge fireball, can't just spam it and blow up the battlefield. Not only is it a tiring spell, but they need lots of concentration, and a guy coming at you with a sword, screaming his head off, is likely to screw up your concentration.
Nai's thoughts, not surprisingly, I think are the best way to work things out. I don't think it constrains most players too much to have their spells in tiers, regardless of the nature of their spells. (Whether they explicitly cast spells, or just channel magic into their bow, or only have one power, say the power to magically manifest a sword, or whatever else.)
Axes, maces, and hammers are other common fantasy weapons that could probably be added to the list.
When it comes to handling weapons, I'm willing to be pretty forgiving on realism. I don't think we want a whole lot of people using abjectly silly weapons, but if someone wants to fight with a giant axe with a head on both ends of the haft or a sharpened boomerang, they may as well be allowed to with no penalty in combat. (I mean, such weapons would have intuitive advantages and disadvantages against, say, a sword, but they shouldn't be as terrible as they would be in real life. There's a reason real-life soldiers only used swords, bows, and polearms.) The game system already slightly punishes those characters as they'll have diminished chance to "upgrade" their weapons due to their rarity. Those weapons would be terrible in real life, but it's a fantasy game.
I'm fine with a multitude of weapons. I've seen the so-called 'silly' weapons used rather well, so I have no problems there. We need to, however, remember the whole weight/damage/speed ratios, though. Higher the weight, better the damage, but the less attacks you can get in the shorta mount of time. Axes, maces, and hammers tend to be heavier, and slower, than, say, a sword or dagger. Polearms tend to fall in the middle.
I say we go with Gift's list, plus Joyd's additions, with a few other common weapons thrown in. We need to order the list of materials, though, in order of lowest quality to best. This is my proposed list:
Weapons
Dagger
Short Sword
Rapier
Long Sword
Katana
Spear
Lance
Quartestaff
Halberd
Axe
Mace
War Hammer
Short Bow
Longbow
Crossbow
Darts
Sling and 'bullet'
Knuckles
Katar
Jitte (?)
Materials
Wood
Bronze
Iron
Steel
Silver
The Jitte I'm iffy about. It's not as much an offensive weapon as it is a defensive weapon. It's more for one on one combat. It probably won't see large use. I also ordered things in reference to grouping of type. I can't think of any other polearms off the top of my head. I also don't know about knuckles, as they don't really give you a chance to defend yourself against anything.
I also don't know about knuckles, as they don't really give you a chance to defend yourself against anything.
a fighter who used knuckles would be a fist-fist fighter pure martial arts. The knuckles would just increase the damage a punch would give while a block (using your arm) would suffice a defensive move.
I hate to have to point out that when you're fighting against a sword, using your arm to block the blow generally means you lose an arm. I see what you mean, but it's generally hard to use knuckles in a genre like this. It'd be a bit easier if the fist-fighter had armor, but that generally is voiding the purpose of being a martial artist.
I hate to have to point out that when you're fighting against a sword, using your arm to block the blow generally means you lose an arm. I see what you mean, but it's generally hard to use knuckles in a genre like this. It'd be a bit easier if the fist-fighter had armor, but that generally is voiding the purpose of being a martial artist.
I have to agree here. It flavorfully wouldn't work out of we had martial fist-fighters against people with swords. I suppose it could just turn into a completely offensive battle (without the martial artist using any blocking techniques at all, just punches and dodging), but that removes what I think would be a rather important flavor aspect of combat.
For the most part I like that list of weapons. However, I think there are a few things you're missing. I think for the swords we should also let in bigger, slower swords like Broad Swords, Bastard Swords (which take special training to wield one-handed) and Great Swords (which are just flatly two-handed weapons). Also, we can put some more divisions on the axes, like Hand Axe (smaller and quicker, more like a sword), Battle Axes (your typical axe), and Double Axes (big heavy things that probably take two hands, are very slow, but destroy stuff).
Unarmed (or clawed) fighters are a standard fantasy trope, and should be supported. They typically defend themselves by dodging rather than by parrying.
A quarterstaff is used for smacking people, not stabbing them, and probably belongs in the smashing weapons section.
I don't see any real benefit to making a comprehensive list of weapons. A weapon is only as important in the world as the number of PCs using it. An example is the jitte (which, as Nai pointed out, is not a primary weapon, but takes the place of a shield.) Maybe someone wants to use a jitte. Maybe ten people do. Maybe nobody does. A giant list of fantasy weapons doesn't mean a lot. If someone wants to use a poleaxe or a flail or a harpoon, let them. It doesn't hurt to have a list of weapons, but if someone wants to fight with something strange, they may as well be able to. If someone wants to fight with a familiar weapon in an unusual way (sword dancer, grappling while using a knife, etc.), they may as well be able to. I mean, we can make a list if we want to, I'm just not sure what it's for.
I also don't know that we need a list of materials, especially a very long one. Weapons can probably just be "simple", "fine", "masterwork", etc, with anything more complicated just being a special property of the weapon.
We can allow for more specialized weapons like the jitte, but I don't think they go on the "main gear" list.
Oh, and sorry about the "short sword" post; I was having connection problems.
I suggest we use a list like this as the "main" weapons, but let players make up their own (if what they make up is acceptable)
Hey, is there anyone else on the forums going to Rice University in Houston? We could ALWAYS use more people in our Magic games. PM me if you want to play sometime
Unarmed (or clawed) fighters are a standard fantasy trope, and should be supported. They typically defend themselves by dodging rather than by parrying.
A quarterstaff is used for smacking people, not stabbing them, and probably belongs in the smashing weapons section.
I don't see any real benefit to making a comprehensive list of weapons. A weapon is only as important in the world as the number of PCs using it. An example is the jitte (which, as Nai pointed out, is not a primary weapon, but takes the place of a shield.) Maybe someone wants to use a jitte. Maybe ten people do. Maybe nobody does. A giant list of fantasy weapons doesn't mean a lot. If someone wants to use a poleaxe or a flail or a harpoon, let them. It doesn't hurt to have a list of weapons, but if someone wants to fight with something strange, they may as well be able to. If someone wants to fight with a familiar weapon in an unusual way (sword dancer, grappling while using a knife, etc.), they may as well be able to. I mean, we can make a list if we want to, I'm just not sure what it's for.
I also don't know that we need a list of materials, especially a very long one. Weapons can probably just be "simple", "fine", "masterwork", etc, with anything more complicated just being a special property of the weapon.
The problem with the whole 'martial artists dodge' bit is that gives them an excuse to dodge every attack. It lends itself to godmodding a little. Just a thought.
I put Quarterstaff into the polearm category, since that's what it is.
The reason I ask for a comprehensive, or semi-so, list is so we can have a list of what a smithy will usually make. Items like a knife on the end of a chain whip, for example, would be a custom item that would cost more. It's basically so we can lessen the work on world moderators when we get to times when people are actually buying weapons.
The materials list is much the same. "Simple", "fine", and "Masterwork" are great and all, but those signify the quality of the work itself. As good as a masterwork sword is, it still won't hold up to much if it's a masterwork sword of wood. The materials list is basically so we can gauge how long a weapon lasts without being repaired, and what can break a weapon and the like. It also allows us to have materials that weigh different amounts, for variously heavy weapons (you wouldn't want to use a greatsword made of iron, for instance; it would weigh a ton), and so we can have a list for comparing various makes of weapons. A masterwork hammer, for instance, may be of better quality than a masterwork knife. Both shouldn't be similar in cost. And that doesn't answer the question of how much a masterwork hammer weighs in comparison to say, a simple hammer.
Will it ever matter if one weighs more than the other? Once again, I'm fine with setting things up like this, I just don't see why it's important.
The problem with the whole 'martial artists dodge' bit is that gives them an excuse to dodge every attack. It lends itself to godmodding a little. Just a thought.
How is this at all different than "people with a sword parry (and dodge)" or "people with a shield block (or dodge or parry)"? The suggestion was made that knuckles were an inappropriate weapon, as they can't easily be used to block blows. Fantasy handles this almost universally by making unarmed fighters especially acrobatic. If you simply don't want unarmed fighting as an option, that's fine, but I don't think it's a balance issue.
Weight matters because people shouldn't be able to attack with a two handed weapon as fast as they could with a dagger.
Usually, a person in a fight can block, dodge, or take the damage. A martial artist has nothing to block with, and if they take the damage they usually have no armor to protect them, making any blow potentially deadly. So there'd be an increase of dodges with them, the way I see it. It's just an observation though.
From reading the weapons list i think it is missing few other standard weapons. Also I haven't been able to tell but what is going to be the deal with exotic things. Playing someone like a dwarven miner who uses his pickaxe as his main weapon would be mildly interesting.
List of 3 extra things that should be around.
Maul: Because everyone likes a giant hammer.
The hand and a half sword: Because it isn't quite a long sword and is weildable 1 handed or two.
Flail: A flail is always fun.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Originally commissioned through High~Light Studios
What about throwing knives and axes? And are we going to use more Japanese stuff like shuriken or kunai, or would those be more of "specialized weapons"? (Throwing knives, and probably throwing axes, should be generic weapons IMO. The former makes rogue-style characters more fun, and the latter are historical Viking weapons; if we use hammers we ought to have throwing axes).
Hey, is there anyone else on the forums going to Rice University in Houston? We could ALWAYS use more people in our Magic games. PM me if you want to play sometime
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Credit for banner goes to: a passer by
World of Pokemon---------------------------Michael Syne
Magic the RPG-------------------------------Forace
Community Project(Fantasy)-----------------Sammy Matthews
Disegreth-----------------------------------Sussania
The Pen and Paper Inn(Project PlanarChaos)--Valarie Liadon
Also, if everyone had to cast spells (which I personally am not planning on doing at all), this would seem way to much like Magic the RPG.
I'll give you an example of how versatile a spell can be. We had a spell that allowed you to shape two cups of water. So people would shape them into sword-sharp daggers or darts and toss them at people. The spell had to be reworded that you can only shape it to a degree that you can see, and it's not possible to see the actual razor's edge, due to the sharpness. If we make spells a big thing, they need to be controlled.
I prefer to combine a 'stamina' issue with a 'concentration' issue. Any given person can only cast X many spells of a certain difficulty before they're too fatigued and have to stop. It's sometimes a per-post thing. But if we put the spells into tiers (first, second, third, in order of difficulty of the spell) and put the powerful spells in the higher tiers, then say the higher tiers can only be cast every other post...
As well, as per concentration, a mage has to not only say the words, but they may have hand gestures. Sorta like D&D. If we say they get their concentration interrupted, the spell fizzles.
With these in place, a caster with a third tier spell, a huge fireball, can't just spam it and blow up the battlefield. Not only is it a tiring spell, but they need lots of concentration, and a guy coming at you with a sword, screaming his head off, is likely to screw up your concentration.
Just my thoughts.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Short Sword
Long Sword
Dagger
Jitte
Katana
Spear/Lance
Bow
Crossbow (?)
Knuckles
Katar
Bo/Staff
Materials.
Wood
Steel
Iron
Bronze
Silver
Gold
Diamond (?)
Magic Metal (?)
Legendary Metal (?)
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
When it comes to handling weapons, I'm willing to be pretty forgiving on realism. I don't think we want a whole lot of people using abjectly silly weapons, but if someone wants to fight with a giant axe with a head on both ends of the haft or a sharpened boomerang, they may as well be allowed to with no penalty in combat. (I mean, such weapons would have intuitive advantages and disadvantages against, say, a sword, but they shouldn't be as terrible as they would be in real life. There's a reason real-life soldiers only used swords, bows, and polearms.) The game system already slightly punishes those characters as they'll have diminished chance to "upgrade" their weapons due to their rarity. Those weapons would be terrible in real life, but it's a fantasy game.
I say we go with Gift's list, plus Joyd's additions, with a few other common weapons thrown in. We need to order the list of materials, though, in order of lowest quality to best. This is my proposed list:
Weapons
Dagger
Short Sword
Rapier
Long Sword
Katana
Spear
Lance
Quartestaff
Halberd
Axe
Mace
War Hammer
Short Bow
Longbow
Crossbow
Darts
Sling and 'bullet'
Knuckles
Katar
Jitte (?)
Materials
Wood
Bronze
Iron
Steel
Silver
The Jitte I'm iffy about. It's not as much an offensive weapon as it is a defensive weapon. It's more for one on one combat. It probably won't see large use. I also ordered things in reference to grouping of type. I can't think of any other polearms off the top of my head. I also don't know about knuckles, as they don't really give you a chance to defend yourself against anything.
My helpdesk should you need me.
a fighter who used knuckles would be a fist-fist fighter pure martial arts. The knuckles would just increase the damage a punch would give while a block (using your arm) would suffice a defensive move.
Sigil: an MMORPCCG ">Mexus: An MMORPCCG
My helpdesk should you need me.
I have to agree here. It flavorfully wouldn't work out of we had martial fist-fighters against people with swords. I suppose it could just turn into a completely offensive battle (without the martial artist using any blocking techniques at all, just punches and dodging), but that removes what I think would be a rather important flavor aspect of combat.
For the most part I like that list of weapons. However, I think there are a few things you're missing. I think for the swords we should also let in bigger, slower swords like Broad Swords, Bastard Swords (which take special training to wield one-handed) and Great Swords (which are just flatly two-handed weapons). Also, we can put some more divisions on the axes, like Hand Axe (smaller and quicker, more like a sword), Battle Axes (your typical axe), and Double Axes (big heavy things that probably take two hands, are very slow, but destroy stuff).
Winner of the Weekly Signature & Avatar Contest Weeks 51, 59, 78, & 118.
I don't care if I was framed for murder if I only got a warning I would let it go.
A quarterstaff is used for smacking people, not stabbing them, and probably belongs in the smashing weapons section.
I don't see any real benefit to making a comprehensive list of weapons. A weapon is only as important in the world as the number of PCs using it. An example is the jitte (which, as Nai pointed out, is not a primary weapon, but takes the place of a shield.) Maybe someone wants to use a jitte. Maybe ten people do. Maybe nobody does. A giant list of fantasy weapons doesn't mean a lot. If someone wants to use a poleaxe or a flail or a harpoon, let them. It doesn't hurt to have a list of weapons, but if someone wants to fight with something strange, they may as well be able to. If someone wants to fight with a familiar weapon in an unusual way (sword dancer, grappling while using a knife, etc.), they may as well be able to. I mean, we can make a list if we want to, I'm just not sure what it's for.
I also don't know that we need a list of materials, especially a very long one. Weapons can probably just be "simple", "fine", "masterwork", etc, with anything more complicated just being a special property of the weapon.
Sword
Short Sword Long Sword Katana Scimitar
Dagger
Dagger Hook-Bladed Dagger Stiletto
Axe
One-Bladed Axe Double-Headed Axe Throwing Axe
Polearm
Spear Lance Halberd Mace Hammer Staff
Ranged
Longbow Crossbow Blowgun Throwing Knives Shuriken (?) Boomerang (??)
Knuckles
We can allow for more specialized weapons like the jitte, but I don't think they go on the "main gear" list.
Oh, and sorry about the "short sword" post; I was having connection problems.
I suggest we use a list like this as the "main" weapons, but let players make up their own (if what they make up is acceptable)
Hey, is there anyone else on the forums going to Rice University in Houston? We could ALWAYS use more people in our Magic games. PM me if you want to play sometime
The problem with the whole 'martial artists dodge' bit is that gives them an excuse to dodge every attack. It lends itself to godmodding a little. Just a thought.
I put Quarterstaff into the polearm category, since that's what it is.
The reason I ask for a comprehensive, or semi-so, list is so we can have a list of what a smithy will usually make. Items like a knife on the end of a chain whip, for example, would be a custom item that would cost more. It's basically so we can lessen the work on world moderators when we get to times when people are actually buying weapons.
The materials list is much the same. "Simple", "fine", and "Masterwork" are great and all, but those signify the quality of the work itself. As good as a masterwork sword is, it still won't hold up to much if it's a masterwork sword of wood. The materials list is basically so we can gauge how long a weapon lasts without being repaired, and what can break a weapon and the like. It also allows us to have materials that weigh different amounts, for variously heavy weapons (you wouldn't want to use a greatsword made of iron, for instance; it would weigh a ton), and so we can have a list for comparing various makes of weapons. A masterwork hammer, for instance, may be of better quality than a masterwork knife. Both shouldn't be similar in cost. And that doesn't answer the question of how much a masterwork hammer weighs in comparison to say, a simple hammer.
Basically, it's comparison of e-penises.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Usually, a person in a fight can block, dodge, or take the damage. A martial artist has nothing to block with, and if they take the damage they usually have no armor to protect them, making any blow potentially deadly. So there'd be an increase of dodges with them, the way I see it. It's just an observation though.
My helpdesk should you need me.
List of 3 extra things that should be around.
Maul: Because everyone likes a giant hammer.
The hand and a half sword: Because it isn't quite a long sword and is weildable 1 handed or two.
Flail: A flail is always fun.
Hand and a Half Sword is a Bastard Sword.
Flail is right. We're missing the last two.
My helpdesk should you need me.
Hey, is there anyone else on the forums going to Rice University in Houston? We could ALWAYS use more people in our Magic games. PM me if you want to play sometime