For about the 5th time on this thread, these guys stole from people who had backpack straps around their ankles and/or chair legs.
They weren't stealing from careless people alone, and blaming the victims is ridiculous here. They weren't opportunistic thieves, they were out and out criminals.
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In all seriousness, consider very serious crimes like rape. Because a women or man dresses in a skimpy, revealing, or "inviting" manner doesn't warrant, excuse, or permit acceptance of rape and sexual abuse. A problematic issue in most US cities are the bicycles are stolen off of front porches everywhere. Could the owner keep the bicycle inside (you know, next to the dinner table in the tiny duplex)? Sure. Should they need to? Most of us would agree no, they should be able to store their bike outside like one would expect.
Can individuals do more to prevent criminal activity from impacting their lives? Absolutely. Is it their fault that it happened to them? Rarely. Outside of instigation or knowledge that something would be unsafe, criminals are choosing to engage in behavior prohibited by law. It isn't a matter or "right or wrong" or even "moral or immoral" (though such considerations can be useful and powerful), it's simply that an individual is choosing convenience and ease over work. Taking what somebody else earned is as old as life. Only through the inhuman lens of "survival of the fittest" or "those who are stronger take from the weaker" would the victim be at fault for their experience at the hands of a criminal.
Of course, take what I argue with a grain of salt. But don't hit me up to help you out in getting your cards back in order in time for a tournament if you won't sympathize with those who have been wronged.
I hope that was nice and cathartic for you. A bit tl;dr though. Rape and theft are different crimes. Comparing them is like comparing child labor laws and divorce law simply because they're both types of laws.
My point was that people need to get serious about their safety and be aware of their environment. Doing so reduces the likelihood of victimization of any kind. Victims(and would be victims) need to empower themselves so they won't be victims in the future.
The Carabiner (thanks to Lesurgo)
A more unusual tactic but a most effective one. Attach a carabiner to any bag or case you might bring along with you, connecting it to a belt loop on your pants. That way there is no chance of your stuff getting swiped and equally no chance of you forgetting it!
I sometimes use bicycle brake wire to form an extension so I can comfortably put my stuff down. On casual night there are a lot of decent guys on lookout (we all take care of each other; and I know I don't have the most expensive stuff anyway) but I don't trust FNMs.
This sounds like sound advice. However I doubt this would stop the people who are "professional" thieves, as they were steeling from people employing similar tactics (strapping the backpack to their legs using the back pack straps, or to the chair legs, etc...) and succeeding. These were hardly opportunistic thieves, these were people who were trained to know how to steel from even the most wary of people, and they were good at their job. Which is probably why they went undetected for so long.
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"As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero." -- Varsuvius, Order of the Stick
Rape and theft are different crimes. Comparing them is like comparing child labor laws and divorce law simply because they're both types of laws.
My point was that people need to get serious about their safety and be aware of their environment. Doing so reduces the likelihood of victimization of any kind. Victims(and would be victims) need to empower themselves so they won't be victims in the future.
And I agree that working for your own best interests (like protecting your cards) is something that many of us should be doing more often. Reducing the likelihood of victimization is an important consideration everywhere in life. However, it becomes problematic when it must be a priority over other considerations, like having fun or interacting with others.
And rape isn't the best comparison (it's rather straw man, I admit), but the bicycle comparison is more similar. I used rape as a comparative since you called out carelessness as a cause of the theft which isn't the case as urzassedatives has repeatedly pointed out. But going further, even at your local FNM there shouldn't be theft. Simply because someone is looking the other way, do you take cards from someone? The vast majority of us don't (and I'm assuming you're in this majority with us) and those that do are still thieves. Whether it was intentional and professional (as at the GP) or opportunistic (as it may be in other cases) doesn't change the fact the that thief knowingly and willingly engaged in prohibited behavior.
It's not often you wander around and just find a stack of cards worth a few hundred dollars (though I'm sure it has happened due to, as you point out, general carelessness by some people with their cards).
I sometimes use bicycle brake wire to form an extension so I can comfortably put my stuff down. On casual night there are a lot of decent guys on lookout (we all take care of each other; and I know I don't have the most expensive stuff anyway) but I don't trust FNMs.
This sounds like sound advice. However I doubt this would stop the people who are "professional" thieves, as they were steeling from people employing similar tactics (strapping the backpack to their legs using the back pack straps, or to the chair legs, etc...) and succeeding. These were hardly opportunistic thieves, these were people who were trained to know how to steel from even the most wary of people, and they were good at their job. Which is probably why they went undetected for so long.
The situation described involved a backpack being slid completely away from the player then picked up, implying that those specific tactics (putting your foot/chair through the straps) were not being used by the player. I would guess that the thieves used a combination of the general distraction of gaming to be inconspicuous while scoping out targets of opportunity (i.e. players who were not using more secure methods to safeguard their cards). Putting your backpack under the table is pretty safe but even with stronger security measures nothing is absolutely foolproof. Even lockers and secured checking would not prevent and insider or judge from having the capability to steal.
The fact that these guys had multiple events of practice was demonstrated by their ability to take stuff from, literally, directly under a player. Street magicians (and slight-of-hand con artists) rely on practice and subtle control of objects to be successful: these thieves were right there with them.
Yes. A thousand times yes. They lured me in with Ivory Tower and Zuran Orb, and I kept telling myself "I can quit whenever I want...just look at that untapped disk". That was ten years ago man.....
I use the Classic ID Velcro Pouch to hold my Cash/credit & ID cards (I don't take my whole wallet usually), a deckbox, and phone/ipod if need be. As an added bonus you can put your Con badge right up front too.
Sure a thief can get it, but they'll really have to earn it off my neck.......
I would love to catch someone stealing my stuff. I would probably end up going to jail for punching some kid in the face who's under 18 and on top of that getting in trouble from DCI for overeacting. I guess I just don't have the tollerance for something like that. I'm 28 years old. Alot of these younger kids spend thier allowance money or mow grass for extra cash and like the game just as much as I do. I'll be damned if I see some kid try to take advanatage of a younger shy type kid who would probably be too scared to speak up even if he did catch a thief in action.
I like how the discussion about blaming the victim completely skipped over US's post about these criminals being organized and their victims being prepared.
If you read the links I provided, you'll notice that these guys were scoping out the place for "high reward" bags and it didn't matter how prepared the victims were.
Although a friend of mine likes to point out that although most gamer nerds are incredibly jealous of their collections, once they are in a game, you could steal their underwear from them and they wouldn't notice.
I'm with some of the others who've posted here, bring your Deck, your Cell, and possibly your wallet (in your front pocket). I understand why people bring bags, I used to, but it ends up making you too big of a target, as a bag is a lot more aluring than just a deck.
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Amazing Avy & Sig by mchief111 @ Rising Studios [4/22/11]
I put my bag between me and my opponent, right beween my legs and under the table essentially, and then I try to have some physical contact with it either by looping my leg around a strap, stepping on a strap or resting my leg against the pack. That what, a thief would essentially have to crawl under my chair to get my pack (not very incognito), and I would also have the added protection of being in physical contact to sense movement away.
Even then, I'm still pretty paranoid and I look down every once in a while.
I went to my store's prerelease for Conflux, and I planned poorly and got a ride there and back. (I thought my car would get fixed while I was playing...it didn't) While waiting for my ride, I made a quick trade out of a box that had all the cards I didn't feel comfortable putting in my trade binder. (mostly t2 staples, the box also had my edh deck) I must have forgotten to put the box back into my bag or something because I left without it.
And someone took the box.
The store was very very apologetic about it, and I have since rebuilt my EDH deck with their help. Thankfully most of the stuff I lost is rotating out in a few months, (except BoPs, but I'll get those in M10 I'm sure) but I considered quitting for a few moments.
My girlfriend, who was the person picking me up, told me it was my fault, not the person who took it, and that it wasn't stealing because I left it there in negligence. I can see the logic, but I tend to not agree. Someone left their legacy goblin deck on a table unattended at the previous prerelease and it was stolen. The person who took it got caught and banned from the store.
Respect other people's property, seriously.
(Still don't know who took my cards...)
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News and spoiler contributor for GatheringMagic.com
I was like 12 feet away from the guy when they tackled him, and i almost wanted to stand up and punch the guy in the face because i know how it feels to have things stolen... Needless to say i'm so happy they caught the guy and have not only banned the group for life but moved to prosecution. I had a chance to talk to an individual there who fell victim to this, and i guess they found a ton of bags in these guys' hotel room. the guy was SOOOOO happy that his stuff is back... i guess he had a set of beta duals in it...
My father told me from his times working as an MP in Germany in the 1960's that his commanding officer told everybody in the unit that if they catch a thief in the barracks, "make sure he doesn't walk away." Now mind you, the thief (sorry, alleged thief) wasn't killed - unless he had an allergic reaction to several trained army guys who really don't like their illusions of security being mess with, but there were a couple of cases of "suspects" coming down with TBL disorder (Two Broken Legs).
But after those couple times, no more thievery.
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Guns don't kill people. Bullets kill people. Guns just make them move really, really fast.
OMG..... I would have gone crazy if these punks would have stole from me. I'm former military and I think I wouldn't have been able to control my instinct to destroy on sight. Would have been a lot of elbows to the chin and crooks getting choked out.
But hey, thats just me.
I absolutely have no time, patience, or sympothy for theives.
These guys deserve everything they got coming to them.
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Win if you can, lose if you must, but always cheat!!!!! 3 simple rules.
I'm just curious I can understand being angry if you catch the thief and hurt him what are the ramifications of that? Wouldn't you be protected under "crime of passion" if you hit someone while protecting yours or someone else's property.
I hate thiefs
I'm just curious I can understand being angry if you catch the thief and hurt him what are the ramifications of that? Wouldn't you be protected under "crime of passion" if you hit someone while protecting yours or someone else's property.
I hate thiefs
You would get slapped with a misdemeanor of battery if you're over 18. The best thing to do would be to let the store owners and judges handle the situation but to be honest I would still end up hitting someone and probably suffer the same penalties as the guy stealing cards/bags. I have no tollerance for thieves or men who hit women or parents that abuse children unnessecarilly.
I have a vehement opposition to vigilantism in real life (Superman and Batman are perfectly allowed to do their thing), but I agree - the temptation for "direct consequences" would be quite strong in cases like this, where they are caught red-handed.
Quote from Winter »
My father told me from his times working as an MP... ...but after those couple times, no more thievery.
I strongly agree with this reaction. A community that allows, condones, or even does not sufficiently condemn theivery within it's numbers will find such occasions continue to escallate. The punishment has to exceed the crime, to make sure there's no profit to be made.
I would strongly encourage anyone who suspects the card(s) they're trading for are stolen, or the person they're trading with / playing with is a thief, to cease dealing with them, immediately, and advise others of your reasons for doing so.
Also, regarding an earlier mention of these banned person(s) working for a store: I strongly encourage anyone who attended that store to advise them you no longer intend to do so while those person(s) are welcome or employed there, and these charges are pending (or proven). Send an absolutely clear message, with your wallet, that this behavior is completely intolerable.
I only wish I'd shopped there before - so I could never do so again.
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The earth-creature shows intelligence, turning our box over to expose the soft, fleshy underbelly.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
Wow, the last posts on this thread are starting to appear a tad harsh...
Why not shooting thieves on sight, in the middle of their forehead? Now that would be awesome. They had it coming anyway...
I don't like excessive violence but the thought that as a thief anyone who catches you get to beat you to a pulp is a very pointent threat deterrant rather than I might get charged if the cops/organizers catch me and prove it.
A person infringing signifigantly one anothers rights shouldn't have his considered until after the affair is sorted and the government takes over. (In other words don't kill the guy but injuring him for stealing? They stole, they obviously dont' value your right to property so I don't see why you need to value their right to remain in an uninjured state.)
Part of the reason I think this goes on is that people know they're taking it from MTG players, and thus are unlikely to receive serious repercussions since they know that a lot of players are weak/shy and won't do anything. I think slapping them around a bit could do some good if anyone ever feels like doing it.
This. The vigilante theme in here disturbing. It's a immature and ill-educated reaction. Punishment is to be decided by the relevant authorities, that's how justice works in a developed country.
I'm not saying we need to hunt them down, take them out, and murder their families. I'm just saying that this type of attitude is why people will continue to prey on MTG players -- they know none of them will do anything about it and there will be no real consequences (onoez lifetime ban!!).
Look let authorities handle justice...or the judges in this case good for them I hope those guys are put away for a long time in jail.
Having cards stolen is not fun at all either keep GOOD track of your belongings. Especially at huge huge events because when someone makes off with your binder at a 1200+ person event it will be nigh impossible to find them and they'll get away with their crime.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
This. The vigilante theme in here disturbing. It's a immature and ill-educated reaction. Punishment is to be decided by the relevant authorities, that's how justice works in a developed country.
I think the point of those “ill-educated” post is that justice and the relevant authoress have not been an effective deterrent. Violence is the first alternative that pops into peoples minds (especially angry people)
, aren’t cars with NRA bumper sticker less likely to be stolen, and if the head line had read “thief in critical condition after being mobbed by angry nerds” I’m sure there would be far fewer thefts at the next convetion. Now I don’t think putting NRA stickers on your deck box and mobbing thieves are the solutions. I think a good deterrent would be if Wotc went out of their way to catch more thieves, like conduct their own sting operations. do these convention centers have security cameras? I have no security experience but I seems like if players reported where they where when their stuff was stolen you could look at the tapes and identify the thief. As it stands now I don't think busting the occasional gang will stop it from happening.
A 40 dollar mythic rare would constitute a must have 4 of that goes in many decks.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled. I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
This is not an america thing... before anyone starts that garbage... criminals break the law... so yeah gun at a card tournament carried by criminals ISNT out of the question.
I carry mine very often. Most players (only those who know me very well) know I have it on me. The owner at my local card shop knows I have one. But then again, I'm on your side. You never know when someone "snaps" and decides to go postal at a 1200+ person tournament. I've seen massacres happen in churches, McDonalds, schools, etc. I pray that something like that never happens again, but if it does, I will do everything in my power to stop it and keep as many people safe from it - as my ability (or life) permits.
They weren't stealing from careless people alone, and blaming the victims is ridiculous here. They weren't opportunistic thieves, they were out and out criminals.
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I don't have a religion. *shrug* A poll of one is called an opinion in layman's terms.
I hope that was nice and cathartic for you. A bit tl;dr though. Rape and theft are different crimes. Comparing them is like comparing child labor laws and divorce law simply because they're both types of laws.
My point was that people need to get serious about their safety and be aware of their environment. Doing so reduces the likelihood of victimization of any kind. Victims(and would be victims) need to empower themselves so they won't be victims in the future.
This sounds like sound advice. However I doubt this would stop the people who are "professional" thieves, as they were steeling from people employing similar tactics (strapping the backpack to their legs using the back pack straps, or to the chair legs, etc...) and succeeding. These were hardly opportunistic thieves, these were people who were trained to know how to steel from even the most wary of people, and they were good at their job. Which is probably why they went undetected for so long.
And I agree that working for your own best interests (like protecting your cards) is something that many of us should be doing more often. Reducing the likelihood of victimization is an important consideration everywhere in life. However, it becomes problematic when it must be a priority over other considerations, like having fun or interacting with others.
And rape isn't the best comparison (it's rather straw man, I admit), but the bicycle comparison is more similar. I used rape as a comparative since you called out carelessness as a cause of the theft which isn't the case as urzassedatives has repeatedly pointed out. But going further, even at your local FNM there shouldn't be theft. Simply because someone is looking the other way, do you take cards from someone? The vast majority of us don't (and I'm assuming you're in this majority with us) and those that do are still thieves. Whether it was intentional and professional (as at the GP) or opportunistic (as it may be in other cases) doesn't change the fact the that thief knowingly and willingly engaged in prohibited behavior.
It's not often you wander around and just find a stack of cards worth a few hundred dollars (though I'm sure it has happened due to, as you point out, general carelessness by some people with their cards).
The situation described involved a backpack being slid completely away from the player then picked up, implying that those specific tactics (putting your foot/chair through the straps) were not being used by the player. I would guess that the thieves used a combination of the general distraction of gaming to be inconspicuous while scoping out targets of opportunity (i.e. players who were not using more secure methods to safeguard their cards). Putting your backpack under the table is pretty safe but even with stronger security measures nothing is absolutely foolproof. Even lockers and secured checking would not prevent and insider or judge from having the capability to steal.
The fact that these guys had multiple events of practice was demonstrated by their ability to take stuff from, literally, directly under a player. Street magicians (and slight-of-hand con artists) rely on practice and subtle control of objects to be successful: these thieves were right there with them.
http://www.identity-links.com/trade-show-pouches-wallets-c-172_157.html
I use the Classic ID Velcro Pouch to hold my Cash/credit & ID cards (I don't take my whole wallet usually), a deckbox, and phone/ipod if need be. As an added bonus you can put your Con badge right up front too.
Sure a thief can get it, but they'll really have to earn it off my neck.......
If you read the links I provided, you'll notice that these guys were scoping out the place for "high reward" bags and it didn't matter how prepared the victims were.
Although a friend of mine likes to point out that although most gamer nerds are incredibly jealous of their collections, once they are in a game, you could steal their underwear from them and they wouldn't notice.
Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc
Homeless men trained in arm combat is the only solution IMO.
And yes, I did just pimp my 2 year old article when I haven't done anything productive on this site in months.
Even then, I'm still pretty paranoid and I look down every once in a while.
And someone took the box.
The store was very very apologetic about it, and I have since rebuilt my EDH deck with their help. Thankfully most of the stuff I lost is rotating out in a few months, (except BoPs, but I'll get those in M10 I'm sure) but I considered quitting for a few moments.
My girlfriend, who was the person picking me up, told me it was my fault, not the person who took it, and that it wasn't stealing because I left it there in negligence. I can see the logic, but I tend to not agree. Someone left their legacy goblin deck on a table unattended at the previous prerelease and it was stolen. The person who took it got caught and banned from the store.
Respect other people's property, seriously.
(Still don't know who took my cards...)
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But after those couple times, no more thievery.
But hey, thats just me.
I absolutely have no time, patience, or sympothy for theives.
These guys deserve everything they got coming to them.
I hate thiefs
You would get slapped with a misdemeanor of battery if you're over 18. The best thing to do would be to let the store owners and judges handle the situation but to be honest I would still end up hitting someone and probably suffer the same penalties as the guy stealing cards/bags. I have no tollerance for thieves or men who hit women or parents that abuse children unnessecarilly.
I strongly agree with this reaction. A community that allows, condones, or even does not sufficiently condemn theivery within it's numbers will find such occasions continue to escallate. The punishment has to exceed the crime, to make sure there's no profit to be made.
I would strongly encourage anyone who suspects the card(s) they're trading for are stolen, or the person they're trading with / playing with is a thief, to cease dealing with them, immediately, and advise others of your reasons for doing so.
Also, regarding an earlier mention of these banned person(s) working for a store: I strongly encourage anyone who attended that store to advise them you no longer intend to do so while those person(s) are welcome or employed there, and these charges are pending (or proven). Send an absolutely clear message, with your wallet, that this behavior is completely intolerable.
I only wish I'd shopped there before - so I could never do so again.
Azerbaijan is strong in the Google-Fu. He is my hero!
I don't like excessive violence but the thought that as a thief anyone who catches you get to beat you to a pulp is a very pointent threat deterrant rather than I might get charged if the cops/organizers catch me and prove it.
A person infringing signifigantly one anothers rights shouldn't have his considered until after the affair is sorted and the government takes over. (In other words don't kill the guy but injuring him for stealing? They stole, they obviously dont' value your right to property so I don't see why you need to value their right to remain in an uninjured state.)
To all you thieves out there: Off duty police officers play Magic too; we tackle and manhandle as well.
Banner creator: mchief111 from Rising Studios [Forum-Website]
I'm not saying we need to hunt them down, take them out, and murder their families. I'm just saying that this type of attitude is why people will continue to prey on MTG players -- they know none of them will do anything about it and there will be no real consequences (onoez lifetime ban!!).
MTG needs a Jack Bauer.
Having cards stolen is not fun at all either keep GOOD track of your belongings. Especially at huge huge events because when someone makes off with your binder at a 1200+ person event it will be nigh impossible to find them and they'll get away with their crime.
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I think the point of those “ill-educated” post is that justice and the relevant authoress have not been an effective deterrent. Violence is the first alternative that pops into peoples minds (especially angry people)
, aren’t cars with NRA bumper sticker less likely to be stolen, and if the head line had read “thief in critical condition after being mobbed by angry nerds” I’m sure there would be far fewer thefts at the next convetion.
Now I don’t think putting NRA stickers on your deck box and mobbing thieves are the solutions. I think a good deterrent would be if Wotc went out of their way to catch more thieves, like conduct their own sting operations. do these convention centers have security cameras? I have no security experience but I seems like if players reported where they where when their stuff was stolen you could look at the tapes and identify the thief. As it stands now I don't think busting the occasional gang will stop it from happening.
Stats About Mythics
-Mythics are on average 40% rarer than pre-mythic rares
(old blocks about 200 rares, Mythic blocks 35+ mythics)
-They are printing more new cards a year not less
(about 665 now vs. 630 in most pre-mythic block)
-To drop the value of a rare by $1 a mythic must go up $2
-In a 3 year time span deck prices doubled.
I am petitioning for the removal of mythic rarity. Sig this to join the cause.
This is not an america thing... before anyone starts that garbage... criminals break the law... so yeah gun at a card tournament carried by criminals ISNT out of the question.
Yes i am the same guy who trades/sells on MOTL AND Wizards of the Coast and i trade on POJO.
I carry mine very often. Most players (only those who know me very well) know I have it on me. The owner at my local card shop knows I have one. But then again, I'm on your side. You never know when someone "snaps" and decides to go postal at a 1200+ person tournament. I've seen massacres happen in churches, McDonalds, schools, etc. I pray that something like that never happens again, but if it does, I will do everything in my power to stop it and keep as many people safe from it - as my ability (or life) permits.
Banner creator: mchief111 from Rising Studios [Forum-Website]