I've seen you say this before, and at the time had no legal representation and couldn't publicly comment back to you or defend myself. Now that I do, I'll ask you to kindly close your mouth (ie: stop typing) because what you're saying is false. You can probably find mention of my store in a rumor mill thread, but in no way was it an advertisement. Every member of MTGSalvation is allowed a link in their signature, including a link to another website if they choose.
It isn't an issue of whether or not a member of MTGSalvation is allowed a link in their signature. The forum rules allow you to have that link, but the forum rules aren't what are going to matter in a copyright case. It also doesn't help me think highly of your integrity when you changed the store link in your sig to your guild image sig around the time of the lawsuit announcement, which seemed to me almost like you were hiding the fact that that was the way it had been.
Secondly, as for whether or not it is true...
Well, I seem to remember that you advertised your store in your actual post (not in your sig) in I believe the Ravnica spoiler. However, the text you wrote in the Ravnica spoiler has been deleted/edited away. I'd have thought it was my imgaination, but the "last edit" to the guildpact one is actually before the last edit was, so I'm pretty sure I can tell what happened there. These things come off as highly dishonest and decietful, even if they weren't meant to be... and I'm pretty sure they were.
Quote from "rancored_elf" »
If you're new to Magic or the internet, I'll let you know that prereleases were spoiled since there were prereleases.
I started playing Magic in 1994. Without people like you about, there was far less information prior to the prerelease. Heck, Mirage had a PT thing where the pros had no idea whatsoever was going to be in the set. They can't do that nowadays, largely thanks to people such as you who post spoilers and help people compile information about unreleased cards. From what I've heard, its been more or less five years since a set was not largely/completely spoilered before the prerelease. Yes, the internet was less prevalent before then, so that's likely why.
As for some people opening stuff up before the prerelease - yes, that happens. However, the providers of such things will not be able to get product before the release date from WotC if they do stuff like that and get caught, so I see it as somewhat self-regulating.
And in any event, it doesn't justify it, as very, very few storeowners are willing to risk losing their ability to do prereleases.
Many people claim what you do is good for the game, good for WotC, and good for the game. Yet...
Quote from "rancored_elf" »
In addition to the problem with sellers not receiving their shipment and having to refund all the presales they did, and presellers who rip people off, and the concept of buying something which doesn't exist yet, and having to pay for something weeks before it will even be yours, and the fact that presales often don't ship until a week after the release date, and presold cards often go for very strange (and inflated) prices... there's one more downfall to buying presales:
Errors in the spoiler.
Unfortunately I was just notified by an anonymous source (who was a help during the CHK spoiler season with making corrections at the last minute), Moonlight Bargain actually costs .
It goes from "this will see play in EVERY black deck, ever!" to "this may find a deck, depending on the environment".
Sorry to everyone who paid $25 a set for presales of this card. Whether there was a typo somewhere, or R&D tweaked it at the last second, or this was a "planted" error meant to mislead, this is not good news. This is one reason I never did presales when I sold on eBay, and I don't do presales now on my website.
And there may be more in the coming days as boosters start getting opened.
You said this on 9-22-2005 of this last year. Now, you yourself did not do anything illegal other than your spoilering, and you are honorable and don't do presales of cards. But people probably did get hurt from this from pre-buying cards off your information.
I don't think what you do is a good thing, and I think WotC had previously made itself clear on the matter, if the copyright dates on various cards did not. They wrote many times that they did not appreciate spoilers, and yet you not only mention that you have sources but you mention trying to extract more information out of them many times. I'm sorry, but I don't really feel sorry for you. I don't think you deserve to be financially wrecked over this, but what you did was wrong by WotC, and as they are the owners of the IP of Magic, it is their perogative.
Moreso:
I just got 2 PMs and an email, all containing information from various anonymous sources, all who are worried about compromising THEIR sources. What I decided to do about this is to post the information in spread out packets, randomized and sanitized, to keep who and where it came from completely safe from anyone trying to find out where it came from. None of the sources asked for recognition of any kind, but I'm sure they'll read the threads, so feel free to say thanks to them. I'll dole it out one or two cards at a time, mixing from different sources. Each thread from this conglomeration will have "info burst" in the title.
You... well, you intentionally protected the identity of your sources. This points towards you knowing they were doing wrong, and you even encouraged some of these people to continue to violate their NDAs.
I mean, you think you're going to be wrecked, but your sources, who you encouraged and aided in disseminating their information, are not only going to lose their jobs but are also going to be blacklisted by every company's R&D. They'll never be able to get another job of their type, and will have to do something else.
I don't hate you, but I have to say I don't like the spoilers before the release beyond what WotC tells us. I loved how I could open packs back in the day and be suprised by the cards. And your behavior of changing your sig and some of your old posts being edited has made me rather suspicious about your honesty as well. I can understand that you don't like the fact that people remember incriminating evidence, but removing such things is obstruction of justice.
Quote from "SapphireTri" »
The thing also that may hurt Hasbro's lawyers is the fact that there trying to move for a fast judgement before a responce is made. It shows ether they are unsure or there case is not solid to last a full court case
Actually, I think the reason they did that was at least partially that they expected that R_E would have trouble finding himself representation, and thus prepared everything ahead of time so they could do everything as fast as possible in the hopes of not having to spend the time and money on a full court case. As Haloscope said, if they hadn't filed a response, they would have already lost. That's actually quite intelligent on their part. And if the judge, even after the response, still outright awards WotC victory, that probably means the case was pretty solid.
Another thing that popped into my mind was how everyone was like "Wow, that was really bad timing on WotC's part to do it the day before the prerelease." However, there are two good reasons for it, now that I think about it: 1) they were trying to get through it before R_E got wind of it and managed to set himself up properly. 2) They were hoping the news would be overshadowed by the prerelease (it was). Thus, by doing it now, perhaps fewer people care about it than otherwise.
How long has Daron been doing this, anyway? If it's been long enough, it could even be ruled that Hasbro's statute of limitations (is that the term I'm looking for here?) has run out, and since it's been going on for so long beforehand, that they have indirectly given permission.
See, he's probably been doing this for about five years, which is probably about the statue of limitations on it, so it may be they had to file the lawsuit pretty much now.
Even in cases such as giant solifuge, where the spoiler had it listed as a 4/3 instead of a 4/1 and so when it was changed some people's opinions of the set went down, the overall amount of money spent on the set doesn't go down further than it would have been otherwise (ie. without the spoiler).
The problem with this logic is that Giant Solifuge is, objectively, a pretty good card; I recently tested it and found it to be quite strong. People would have been like "Wow, that's a good $5 rare" rather than thinking it is a bad rare because it isn't a 4/3.
I hope that the end result will be R_E will have all charges dropped because he wasn't aware that posting the playtesting cards was illegal and WotC will end up going after the john does 1-10. Even though the cards may say they are confidential and copyrighted, I think the fact that R_E has been posted "confidential and copyrighted" material for years without action from WotC, and didn't realize the playtesting cards would be any different.
Yeah... that's not a good argument, legally speaking, at all.
Quote from "xepel" »
Would an Anti-SLAPP sort of measure do anything here, since Wizards is effectively trying to suppress R_E from saying anything about Magic ever again? I know Canada doesn't have any sort of Anti-SLAPP laws, but Washington does.
The problem is this is not a SLAPP. A SLAPP is meant to silence a critic, but what R_E is doing is sharing trade secrets/copyrighted infromation illegally. And even if R_E was spoilering the sets and being like "Wow, this sucks", it still wouldn't be a SLAPP as he'd still be violating the same laws. A SLAPP has no real basis in law, while this has a great basis in law.
Drop the 'R_E advertised his store in rumor mill posts' routine. I can assure you he never did such a thing.
Watch your attitude on this thread.
Just wanted you to know Rancored Elf I decided to not attend the pre-release soon after I read your problems also. I also have only bought 2 singles from my local shop since January when I found out. I also sold some of my older cards on ebay as I decided to take some time off of Magic. Not going to stop playing but I really don't want to feed Wizards Legal Machine any extra money. The outcome on your case will make an impact on what I will do next. Why don't you make some stupid T-Shirt on your site like "I got sued by Wizards of the Coast and all I have left is this lousy T-Shirt"
Just tring to think up some funrasiers that can also be very visable. Like players could wear it to major events. I am sure there are other players that think Hasbro needs to treat his fans better. I don't think we should post anything that they ask us not to, but I also don't think they should go around sueing people. Even if they drop the case, it still cost normal people alot of money just to get a lawyer.
Seds and I just made a major cleanup of this thread. Before you go "ooh ooh nazi mods" on me, yes that includes a lot of R_E-supporting posts.
This thread is an update, not yet another supporters/anti-supporters repeating-yourself-fest. If that's what you want, this thread is still open. Go there.
If anyone from Wizards is reading this article, please ask your attorneys to be reasonable. I would have happily discussed your concerns person to person, without the need for a costly and detrimental lawsuit. I'm hoping that you'll agree to talk about these issues and resolve them. For everyone else, please continue to write to Wizards and ask them to contact me and resolve this. They know I don’t have any money, and in having their attorneys bankrupt my family and I, they will gain little and lose much.
That boils my blood...we might have just have had a two-part article about them jumping the shark, when really, I think they've just become it. And honestly...what is that much money to a corporation like Hasbro? I'd imagine that might be chump change.
I wish you luck in the case, and that attorney you have is one of the greatest people of all time.
Wow, $90000. This is utter rubbish. As many people have stated, it is impossible for R_E to cough up that sum of money. Like someone stated, there is obviously a loophole in the law system. (And perhaps the reason why I didn't like and stduy law at all in the first place, due to it just being a bundle of sentences put together by some random people. In my opinion that is.)
And to anger me more, Wizards' attorneys filed for a default judgment, which is again utter rubbish. I can feel why R_E stated for the Wizards' attorneys to be more reasonable.
And not to say too much again of what others have repeated, I wish R_E and the lawyer you hired the best of luck. With or without rumors is fine with me. But ruthless accusations of an innocent man simply states there is something wrong with our society nowadays. And I don't study law, so don't throw truths or bundle of sentences at me. Like someone else who studies engineering has said in this thread, throw me facts and I will believe you.
PS: Just wondering, where is the hearing taking place? Maybe I can take a flight there and listen to the latest updates myself.
Quote from Aaron Forsythe on Guildpact: Twenty Questions »
When Guildpact was handed over from design, it also had seven gold rares per guild,... and that the seventh gold rare in each guild was less important to the set than the Nephilim. So each guild is down a rare in this set.
Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
Remember when mtgnews was threatened with possibly being shut down, and the mods started a fundraiser? It could be done now for RE, couldn't it? We have a petition going, why not create a fundraising thread in case worse comes to worse and the money is required? Hell, even just having people mail Haloscope some free cards from his wants list would be a nice show of support, as he's obviously put a lot of time and effort into this.
I understand your reasoning, and I would agree if Hasbro/Wizards were simply trying to prevent Daron from speaking about unreleased information. However, as far as I can tell(I'm hardly fluent in legalese, so I could be translating it wrong, of course), they're trying to get the courts to say he can't talk about Magic AT ALL. Be it in regards to released or unreleased products. And information released to the public can't possibly be considered a "Trade Secret" because it isn't secret. It is public record, and readily available.
@Xepel:
Good idea, except that I think this situation falls under federal law regardless, and therefore the Anti-SLAPP laws wouldn't apply even if this case did fall under them. On the other hand, I suppose that the same ideas could be used.
@Titanium Dragon:
I'm not going to pick all of your comments apart, as many of them do have validity. Allow me to raise these points before you and this forum, though. One: Did R_E know that the images he received were legitimate playtest cards, or did he have reason to believe that they were not legitimate playtest cards? Two: If he did have reason to believe they weren't legitimate, is it fair to say that someone should be sued for posting information that may or may not be true, and would therefore constitute a rumor? And Three: If I were to speculate on what cards might appear in the next block, and just happen upon something that actually WAS a WotC playtest card, would that be illegal, given that I'm not stealing the intellectual property from WotC, but creating it independently, and with no knowledge that such intellectual property does, in fact, exist?
And a general note:
I wonder if it would be possible to speak with WotC or Hasbro representatives personally about this matter... Maybe if enough of us were to actually go TO the WotC or Hasbro offices, we could make them see reason... 50 scowling people right in front of you can usually make more of an impression than 500 annoyed usernames on a computer screen. Just a thought, but feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this, or any other matters. No flames, please, though.
I just want to take this opportunity to point out that like many cards, Giant Solifuge wasn't mentioned by me at all in the Rumor Mill except for me to give my opinion on it as a card. There were two separate sources of information on Giant Solifuge, each posting their information on their own. One said it was 4/1, one said it was 4/3. I've been blamed for that "error" enough, thankyouverymuch.
Please, everyone, don't make this any more personal than it already is.
@Titanium Dragon: Set aside, for the moment, whether spoilers are a good idea or beneficial for the game. We'll agree to disagree. You've made several unfavorable characterizations, which I personally disagree with. I'll not respond to them as none of these are relevant to the topic of this thread. I will note that we both agree that WotC has a right to sue.
The central issue of this thread, the one you haven't addressed is this: Should Wizards have filed a lawsuit?
I just want to take this opportunity to point out that like many cards, Giant Solifuge wasn't mentioned by me at all in the Rumor Mill except for me to give my opinion on it as a card. There were two separate sources of information on Giant Solifuge, each posting their information on their own. One said it was 4/1, one said it was 4/3. I've been blamed for that "error" enough, thankyouverymuch.
Yeah, I know that error wasn't yours, and I don't think I blamed it on you so much as gave it as an example of why spoilers can be a bad thing. But yeah, it wasn't your fault, that was the fault of people who were looking at bad scans and not really having the experience with jpeg compression/counting pixels to realize it was a 4/1.
EDIT: Should WotC sue R_E?
That's a kind of hard question to answer, and not particularly valuable for me to answer. I think that it is largely a matter of opinion rather than something solid, and that at this point its past the point where it matters.
For what its worth, in a perfect world I think that WotC should have done what many people said they should have done - quietly contact R_E and tell him to cease and desist and to reveal all his sources and not contact them again, otherwise they'd sue him.
However, I think the way they did it might have been because they were afraid R_E would protect his sources and have them go to ground, so to speak, by telling them WotC was after them. He seems protective of them and in some cases in the past deliberately mixed up information from sources in order to protect them - I certainly got that impression from many of his posts. As such, they may have felt that suing him was the only solution - by getting him in a very bad position, they'd basically prevent him from protecting his sources by putting him in a financial situation from which their way out was the only solution. I mean, a $90,000 wrecking ball headed for you is a pretty big motivation to reveal your sources.
Hey, R_E. You have my support. Id like to state for the record that I have not bought any Guildpact product whatsoever. My playgroup usually splits 50/50 between Type 1 Multiplayer and Drafting. We are all adults with fulltime jobs. We will not be drafting anytime soon, and if WOTC keeps this up, we might not ever draft again. New cards are cool, but my collection is big enough to make Hundreds of vintage decks. Personally, Im disgusted that WOTC would financially attack a fan. This shows what Wizards thinks of us. I cant support that. I wont be buying new product without a an upfront, serious apology. Stay strong and email me if theres a way i can help.
That's a kind of hard question to answer, and not particularly valuable for me to answer. I think that it is largely a matter of opinion rather than something solid, and that at this point its past the point where it matters.
Ignoring everything else you said, no: it's not past the point where it matters. If I as a fan believe that Hasbro should not have sued R_E, then I as a fan can choose to take action. Regardless of the outcome of the case, the opinion of the fan base as to whether or not Hasbro should have sued R_E is far more important than whether or not they had the legal right to. I know this doesn't matter in the courtroom, but here on this forum it does.
On a separate note, I asked a while ago and didn't get much of a response: does anybody have any ideas as to whether or not the spoilers actually triggered the lawsuit or if the playtest cards were instead the catalyst.
Once again: I support you R_E, if there is anything I can do to help, let me know.
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Quote from Avatar of Kokusho »
What in the name of all that's holy are you smoking????
If this lawsuit goes through and R_E and his family become bankrupt over this, I will never buy any Hasburo product again, expecially magic. I know alot of you guys think the same way.
I hope they hear us because I don't to quit magic and I don't want one man's family to be financially destroyed over a awesome but ultimately meaningless game.
That's a kind of hard question to answer, and not particularly valuable for me to answer. I think that it is largely a matter of opinion rather than something solid, and that at this point its past the point where it matters.
It is a hard question to answer. However, the important questions are rarely the easy ones to answer. I disagree that your answer isn't valuable. Yes, its an opinion. But, its not irrelevant simply because you can't change the past.
One: Did R_E know that the images he received were legitimate playtest cards, or did he have reason to believe that they were not legitimate playtest cards?
Here's the thing - they say they're confidential and also say they are copyright WotC. Let's look at the two possibilities:
1) They're fakes, and thus it isn't valuable to post them.
2) They're real, and thus it is illegal to post them.
As they look authentic, it is likely that #2 is correct. Even if it isn't, its a good idea to assume that it is, because they are extremely well done fakes, to the point where you can't tell if they're real or not. As such, it seems imprudent to post them from a legal standpoint.
I believe this also answers your second question.
Quote from "Twilight" »
And Three: If I were to speculate on what cards might appear in the next block, and just happen upon something that actually WAS a WotC playtest card, would that be illegal, given that I'm not stealing the intellectual property from WotC, but creating it independently, and with no knowledge that such intellectual property does, in fact, exist?
You can't get sued for that. If you were speculating on things, and were right, that's totally fine. What R_E did was not speculation, though. If I was like:
These cards should be printed next block: Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then they -were-, then I'm just that good. If, however, I say this:
My sources tell me these will be printed in the next block: blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's very different, as you aren't speculating; you're disclosing WotC trade secrets. I mean, people -made- Mortify (down to the name) before we knew the card. People have "made" the "new counterspell", and many have said it will be named "Dispel". If it in fact -is-... well, then we're just good at looking up things in the thesaurus.
Quote from "Haloscope" »
It is a hard question to answer. However, the important questions are rarely the easy ones to answer. I disagree that your answer isn't valuable. Yes, its an opinion. But, its not irrelevant simply because you can't change the past.
Fair enough. But I think the problem is also partially that I do not have all the relevant information. Let's say, in an entirely hypothetical exercise, that WotC found out they could sell 1 million more Magic cards per year by not having accurate prerelease spoilers, or could increase prerelease attendance by 10%. If this were indeed the case, one could say that R_E was getting the better end of this deal because he's cost WotC more than $90,000 by aiding the spoilers. I'm pretty sure most people would be quite angry if someone else's actions cost them a hundred thousand dollars and would see a lawsuit as justified.
I'm really dismayed by the actions of Wizards/Hasbro and their lawyers. No cease and desist. Trying to get the default judgement. What a bunch of crap!
These actions serve to prove that Wizards seems to care less about their fanbase and more about their pocketbooks. Also, as far as an official word from the public faces of Wizards (Maro and co.) we've seen nothing. Granted, Maro and AF can't say anything... but what about the other writers? I realize they'd only agree. I know I'd agree to anything the people that sign my paychecks want me to, but it would be nice to know they're at least trying to understand many people's outrage, and not just people wanting it talked about openly as Maro mentioned.
I support Rancored_Elf. He's a really great person and has in no way done anything a fan of the game wouldn't. I'd also like to offer a huge thank you to Jay Shergill. You have done a very noble thing. I'm quite sure many people (especially R_E) jumped for joy at your willingness to take the case... and doing it pro bono is even better. You rock!
Should Hasbro have Sued RE-
Short Answer. No.
Why? It hurts Their Image. WoTC has had Several Falling outs with fans in the past years. This just makes them look more like WoTC of Hasbro. with no will of their own beyond that of the Mother-Company.
Many Many Many people have tried to post Fake Play-test cards in the past and pass them off as real. And most times we the Rumor-Mill posters have discounted them as such. The Cards in Question that have spawned this Litigation were thought to be "fakery" by a large portion of the community because of many factors. Some people posted that these cards were "crap" and Wizards would never print such cards that would be bad. The reaction to the Posted Playtest cards as being subpar to the point were many people said they would never buy packs with such utter uselessness in them is what prompted Wizards/Hasbro informants to action in my Opinion.
Edit- If you look at some of the past cards that have been deemed "fakery" some of them are pretty damn close to the ones RE posted. MTG.Com has posted on their very own site old Playtest sticker-cards. Any schlub how wanted to pull a "fast-one" on RE could have just used those Photoshopped them a bit and printed them out.
I do not think any of the Good people involved with the Magic Brand had any doing in this. Hasbro decided to root out these "Leakers" who have blatantly broke NDAs by going after RE.
To do so in such a Heavy Handed manner is bad form.
If Daron does not bring us leaks and spoilers in the future some one else will. Because of the nature of many people it will only flourish.
It is my sincerest hope that everything comes out right in the end for you Daron.
I've never signed a non-disclosure agreement with Wizards. They're accusing myself and the John Doe Defendants of breach of contract. Since they are claiming they don't know who the John Doe Defendants are, they have to accuse me and them of all of the same actions.
Hey man, Is it as most of us suspected? That they are trying to use you to get to john doe 1-10?
I feel so sorry for all you're having to go through. I wish we could get some media support behind this. Surely this type of case would be an embarisment on Hasbro if the facts were laid out.
See, you can't actually put a hard value on an idea. You certainly can't put a hard value on a concept.
The thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around here is how Daron and his supporters can genuinely feel they're in the right here. No offense to you, sir, I'm sure you don't need a kick in the ribs right now. But you did do something wrong - you took information that you had no right to disseminate and disseminated it. That's not wrong now? It's against the law, surely that indicates that you shouldn't have done it.
Should Wizards have filed the lawsuit? Well, if they didn't, if a VS designer were to do the exact same thing, except, say, disseminate it to all his coworkers, then scoop Wizards with their own mechanic, then he'd be able to claim that Wizards' inaction to Mr. Rutter - which I will note has been continuing for five years, - would indicate that he shouldn't be hit either.
Re mentions in spoiler posts that he trusts the source because he's dealt with them before. This means that Wizards' attempts to block spoilers, wizards' confidential sources, are not being caught. They have to take a fairly draconian action, and in this instance, Wizards aren't the ones going for the 90k. They've let a dog off its leash and because the dog knows what it's doing, they're letting it call the shots. You think Wizards expects to get 90k out of Daron? They're not idiots here, people. They have to wield a big stick here, because this is a big deal.
It sucks that RE's getting squished at the end of it. He seems a nice guy and it seems unfair on a human level.
But he still did something he shouldn't have done, for five years, and showed no remorse - I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that that somehow can be ignored on the merits of He's a Nice Guy.
We deplore illegal activity - especially stuff like information dissemination - when it's in the stock market. Why? Because it hurts people. It kicks people in the jimmies and we can see the mums and dads who lose out. In this instance, we don't get to see those people. We don't see the playtesters who loved the work they did and now aren't allowed to ever talk to Wizards employees again because Wizards can't run the risk that they're the ones who violated the NDA.
People are breaking contract, repeatedly to get this information to Daron. How else are Wizards going to find it? They're a company, not a police force. They have to use the means the law provides them.
That's not wrong now? It's against the law, surely that indicates that you shouldn't have done it.
Something is not wrong simply because it is illegal. Consider civil disobedience. Neither is something necessarily illegal because it is wrong. Consider the McCarthy trials. These are extreme examples, but the point is the same. Just because something *might* be illegal doesn't mean its wrong.
Quote from Talen Lee »
People are breaking contract, repeatedly to get this information to Daron. How else are Wizards going to find it? They're a company, not a police force. They have to use the means the law provides them.
How else? Well, they could have started by asking. If that didn't work, they still had their lawsuit.
How else? Well, they could have started by asking. If that didn't work, they still had their lawsuit.
-H
QFT
As far as I know, whenever WotC has asked either R_E or MTGS to do (or stop doing) something, they have complied. In particular, as soon as Wizards asked MTGS to remove the playtest cards from the web, and to delete all threads concerning them, MTGS complied. Not only did it comply in fact, but it also requested its users not to start new ones and did not allow copies of them to be put back up on the site. If Wizards (or Hasbro) had asked R_E for all the information he has on the sources who give out the information, I'm quite confident he would have provided whatever he had (IM screenames, codenames, whatever he has) even if it's not much. This IMO is why the answer is no, they shouldn't have filed the lawsuit, because even though it is their legal right to do so it is far more civil to try and compromise before launching an attack. Especially on a human being.
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Quote from Avatar of Kokusho »
What in the name of all that's holy are you smoking????
There seems to be two things that most people seem to agree with:
1. That the best way for wotc to stop the spoilers, would be to contact RE and tell him to stop, or they'll sue him, as just flat out suing him wouldn't do anything, the info would still come from another source.
2. That RE's actions were illegal, whether or not spoilers are right or wrong, and whether or not you like them.
I disagree with both of these.
1. Say I ruled a country, and a bunch of people were doing something I didn't want them to do. Rather than talking to each one, warning them to stop, if I just went out and shot one, making sure the others knew about it, they'd probably stop. Same deal, making an example of RE.
2. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not totally sure (could someone with legal knowledge clear it up), but isn't RE just the same as reporter? If a news presenter went on TV and announced that cremate was being reprinted, or any other piece of spoiler info, and they had gotten it from a source, would that be any different? (I think someone brought it up when the suit was first announced, but I'd like some clarification) Perhaps the playtest cards issue might be different, but they already contacted mtgs and told them to remove that stuff, and they did.
I am going to get flamed for this, but it needs to be said
Wizards had full legal and moral right to file the lawsuit, R_E, even though he was doing this for others and it was not causing direct loss of earnings to the WOTC (At this time), he is still in direct viloation of several copyright laws. Though the breach of contract charge is unethical, but hell what do you expect from one of the largest law firms in the country. Court rooms are not nice places. I have double checked about this case with both an accomplished Lawyer and a second year law student, and they are both of the opionion that WOTC is correct in this case.
Oh The contract breach can be applyed to the John doe's though.
R_E, You need to get this case to a jury, becouse in a jury people should be sympathetic, and you will be able to get off.
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Nyarlathotep must all things be told
for he is the messenger between the spheres
and the traveler between the realms of the living and the dead.
He shall summon forth the ancient ones
and wake them from their deathly slumber
then shall the elder signs be shattered. Trade Thread
It's against the law, surely that indicates that you shouldn't have done it.
I was mentally preparing a response about civil disbedience, but Haloscope beat me to the punch. I strongly agree with him that legal prerogative does not always equal moral prerogative.
It sucks that RE's getting squished at the end of it. He seems a nice guy and it seems unfair on a human level.
To me, this is the bottom line. No ifs, ands or buts about it. It trumps every other argument about this subject.
It saddens me that this has happened, and I support R_E to the fullest, not just because I like spoilers, but because I don't want to see a man and his family financially destroyed by a corporate lawsuit. Even if you think he's done something wrong (and I don't) it should be apparent that this isn't the best solution.
People are breaking contract, repeatedly to get this information to Daron. How else are Wizards going to find it? They're a company, not a police force. They have to use the means the law provides them.
I've been beaten to the punch on this one too, but it seems to me they've used a last-resort tactic prematurely. A C&D order would have probably been sufficient. I'm not a lawyer though, so what do I know.
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Karma doesn't exist. You can't depend on it. If you count on it for justice or catharsis, you will find that you have placed your emotions on very unstable ground; and you will either repeat your disappointment in society over and over, or you will engage in a persistent delusion to protect yourself from that feeling.
It isn't an issue of whether or not a member of MTGSalvation is allowed a link in their signature. The forum rules allow you to have that link, but the forum rules aren't what are going to matter in a copyright case. It also doesn't help me think highly of your integrity when you changed the store link in your sig to your guild image sig around the time of the lawsuit announcement, which seemed to me almost like you were hiding the fact that that was the way it had been.
Secondly, as for whether or not it is true...
Well, I seem to remember that you advertised your store in your actual post (not in your sig) in I believe the Ravnica spoiler. However, the text you wrote in the Ravnica spoiler has been deleted/edited away. I'd have thought it was my imgaination, but the "last edit" to the guildpact one is actually before the last edit was, so I'm pretty sure I can tell what happened there. These things come off as highly dishonest and decietful, even if they weren't meant to be... and I'm pretty sure they were.
I started playing Magic in 1994. Without people like you about, there was far less information prior to the prerelease. Heck, Mirage had a PT thing where the pros had no idea whatsoever was going to be in the set. They can't do that nowadays, largely thanks to people such as you who post spoilers and help people compile information about unreleased cards. From what I've heard, its been more or less five years since a set was not largely/completely spoilered before the prerelease. Yes, the internet was less prevalent before then, so that's likely why.
As for some people opening stuff up before the prerelease - yes, that happens. However, the providers of such things will not be able to get product before the release date from WotC if they do stuff like that and get caught, so I see it as somewhat self-regulating.
And in any event, it doesn't justify it, as very, very few storeowners are willing to risk losing their ability to do prereleases.
Many people claim what you do is good for the game, good for WotC, and good for the game. Yet...
You said this on 9-22-2005 of this last year. Now, you yourself did not do anything illegal other than your spoilering, and you are honorable and don't do presales of cards. But people probably did get hurt from this from pre-buying cards off your information.
I don't think what you do is a good thing, and I think WotC had previously made itself clear on the matter, if the copyright dates on various cards did not. They wrote many times that they did not appreciate spoilers, and yet you not only mention that you have sources but you mention trying to extract more information out of them many times. I'm sorry, but I don't really feel sorry for you. I don't think you deserve to be financially wrecked over this, but what you did was wrong by WotC, and as they are the owners of the IP of Magic, it is their perogative.
Moreso:
You... well, you intentionally protected the identity of your sources. This points towards you knowing they were doing wrong, and you even encouraged some of these people to continue to violate their NDAs.
I mean, you think you're going to be wrecked, but your sources, who you encouraged and aided in disseminating their information, are not only going to lose their jobs but are also going to be blacklisted by every company's R&D. They'll never be able to get another job of their type, and will have to do something else.
I don't hate you, but I have to say I don't like the spoilers before the release beyond what WotC tells us. I loved how I could open packs back in the day and be suprised by the cards. And your behavior of changing your sig and some of your old posts being edited has made me rather suspicious about your honesty as well. I can understand that you don't like the fact that people remember incriminating evidence, but removing such things is obstruction of justice.
Actually, I think the reason they did that was at least partially that they expected that R_E would have trouble finding himself representation, and thus prepared everything ahead of time so they could do everything as fast as possible in the hopes of not having to spend the time and money on a full court case. As Haloscope said, if they hadn't filed a response, they would have already lost. That's actually quite intelligent on their part. And if the judge, even after the response, still outright awards WotC victory, that probably means the case was pretty solid.
Another thing that popped into my mind was how everyone was like "Wow, that was really bad timing on WotC's part to do it the day before the prerelease." However, there are two good reasons for it, now that I think about it: 1) they were trying to get through it before R_E got wind of it and managed to set himself up properly. 2) They were hoping the news would be overshadowed by the prerelease (it was). Thus, by doing it now, perhaps fewer people care about it than otherwise.
See, he's probably been doing this for about five years, which is probably about the statue of limitations on it, so it may be they had to file the lawsuit pretty much now.
The problem with this logic is that Giant Solifuge is, objectively, a pretty good card; I recently tested it and found it to be quite strong. People would have been like "Wow, that's a good $5 rare" rather than thinking it is a bad rare because it isn't a 4/3.
Yeah... that's not a good argument, legally speaking, at all.
The problem is this is not a SLAPP. A SLAPP is meant to silence a critic, but what R_E is doing is sharing trade secrets/copyrighted infromation illegally. And even if R_E was spoilering the sets and being like "Wow, this sucks", it still wouldn't be a SLAPP as he'd still be violating the same laws. A SLAPP has no real basis in law, while this has a great basis in law.
Drop the 'R_E advertised his store in rumor mill posts' routine. I can assure you he never did such a thing.
Watch your attitude on this thread.
Just tring to think up some funrasiers that can also be very visable. Like players could wear it to major events. I am sure there are other players that think Hasbro needs to treat his fans better. I don't think we should post anything that they ask us not to, but I also don't think they should go around sueing people. Even if they drop the case, it still cost normal people alot of money just to get a lawyer.
This thread is an update, not yet another supporters/anti-supporters repeating-yourself-fest. If that's what you want, this thread is still open. Go there.
That boils my blood...we might have just have had a two-part article about them jumping the shark, when really, I think they've just become it. And honestly...what is that much money to a corporation like Hasbro? I'd imagine that might be chump change.
I wish you luck in the case, and that attorney you have is one of the greatest people of all time.
And to anger me more, Wizards' attorneys filed for a default judgment, which is again utter rubbish. I can feel why R_E stated for the Wizards' attorneys to be more reasonable.
And not to say too much again of what others have repeated, I wish R_E and the lawyer you hired the best of luck. With or without rumors is fine with me. But ruthless accusations of an innocent man simply states there is something wrong with our society nowadays. And I don't study law, so don't throw truths or bundle of sentences at me. Like someone else who studies engineering has said in this thread, throw me facts and I will believe you.
PS: Just wondering, where is the hearing taking place? Maybe I can take a flight there and listen to the latest updates myself.
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Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
I understand your reasoning, and I would agree if Hasbro/Wizards were simply trying to prevent Daron from speaking about unreleased information. However, as far as I can tell(I'm hardly fluent in legalese, so I could be translating it wrong, of course), they're trying to get the courts to say he can't talk about Magic AT ALL. Be it in regards to released or unreleased products. And information released to the public can't possibly be considered a "Trade Secret" because it isn't secret. It is public record, and readily available.
@Xepel:
Good idea, except that I think this situation falls under federal law regardless, and therefore the Anti-SLAPP laws wouldn't apply even if this case did fall under them. On the other hand, I suppose that the same ideas could be used.
@Titanium Dragon:
I'm not going to pick all of your comments apart, as many of them do have validity. Allow me to raise these points before you and this forum, though. One: Did R_E know that the images he received were legitimate playtest cards, or did he have reason to believe that they were not legitimate playtest cards? Two: If he did have reason to believe they weren't legitimate, is it fair to say that someone should be sued for posting information that may or may not be true, and would therefore constitute a rumor? And Three: If I were to speculate on what cards might appear in the next block, and just happen upon something that actually WAS a WotC playtest card, would that be illegal, given that I'm not stealing the intellectual property from WotC, but creating it independently, and with no knowledge that such intellectual property does, in fact, exist?
And a general note:
I wonder if it would be possible to speak with WotC or Hasbro representatives personally about this matter... Maybe if enough of us were to actually go TO the WotC or Hasbro offices, we could make them see reason... 50 scowling people right in front of you can usually make more of an impression than 500 annoyed usernames on a computer screen. Just a thought, but feel free to PM me if you want to discuss this, or any other matters. No flames, please, though.
I just want to take this opportunity to point out that like many cards, Giant Solifuge wasn't mentioned by me at all in the Rumor Mill except for me to give my opinion on it as a card. There were two separate sources of information on Giant Solifuge, each posting their information on their own. One said it was 4/1, one said it was 4/3. I've been blamed for that "error" enough, thankyouverymuch.
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@Titanium Dragon: Set aside, for the moment, whether spoilers are a good idea or beneficial for the game. We'll agree to disagree. You've made several unfavorable characterizations, which I personally disagree with. I'll not respond to them as none of these are relevant to the topic of this thread. I will note that we both agree that WotC has a right to sue.
The central issue of this thread, the one you haven't addressed is this: Should Wizards have filed a lawsuit?
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Yeah, I know that error wasn't yours, and I don't think I blamed it on you so much as gave it as an example of why spoilers can be a bad thing. But yeah, it wasn't your fault, that was the fault of people who were looking at bad scans and not really having the experience with jpeg compression/counting pixels to realize it was a 4/1.
EDIT: Should WotC sue R_E?
That's a kind of hard question to answer, and not particularly valuable for me to answer. I think that it is largely a matter of opinion rather than something solid, and that at this point its past the point where it matters.
For what its worth, in a perfect world I think that WotC should have done what many people said they should have done - quietly contact R_E and tell him to cease and desist and to reveal all his sources and not contact them again, otherwise they'd sue him.
However, I think the way they did it might have been because they were afraid R_E would protect his sources and have them go to ground, so to speak, by telling them WotC was after them. He seems protective of them and in some cases in the past deliberately mixed up information from sources in order to protect them - I certainly got that impression from many of his posts. As such, they may have felt that suing him was the only solution - by getting him in a very bad position, they'd basically prevent him from protecting his sources by putting him in a financial situation from which their way out was the only solution. I mean, a $90,000 wrecking ball headed for you is a pretty big motivation to reveal your sources.
EDIT 3: Removed stuff R_E removed.
Later,
Allyn
Ignoring everything else you said, no: it's not past the point where it matters. If I as a fan believe that Hasbro should not have sued R_E, then I as a fan can choose to take action. Regardless of the outcome of the case, the opinion of the fan base as to whether or not Hasbro should have sued R_E is far more important than whether or not they had the legal right to. I know this doesn't matter in the courtroom, but here on this forum it does.
On a separate note, I asked a while ago and didn't get much of a response: does anybody have any ideas as to whether or not the spoilers actually triggered the lawsuit or if the playtest cards were instead the catalyst.
Once again: I support you R_E, if there is anything I can do to help, let me know.
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
I hope they hear us because I don't to quit magic and I don't want one man's family to be financially destroyed over a awesome but ultimately meaningless game.
It is a hard question to answer. However, the important questions are rarely the easy ones to answer. I disagree that your answer isn't valuable. Yes, its an opinion. But, its not irrelevant simply because you can't change the past.
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Here's the thing - they say they're confidential and also say they are copyright WotC. Let's look at the two possibilities:
1) They're fakes, and thus it isn't valuable to post them.
2) They're real, and thus it is illegal to post them.
As they look authentic, it is likely that #2 is correct. Even if it isn't, its a good idea to assume that it is, because they are extremely well done fakes, to the point where you can't tell if they're real or not. As such, it seems imprudent to post them from a legal standpoint.
I believe this also answers your second question.
You can't get sued for that. If you were speculating on things, and were right, that's totally fine. What R_E did was not speculation, though. If I was like:
These cards should be printed next block: Blah, blah, blah, blah.
And then they -were-, then I'm just that good. If, however, I say this:
My sources tell me these will be printed in the next block: blah, blah, blah, blah.
That's very different, as you aren't speculating; you're disclosing WotC trade secrets. I mean, people -made- Mortify (down to the name) before we knew the card. People have "made" the "new counterspell", and many have said it will be named "Dispel". If it in fact -is-... well, then we're just good at looking up things in the thesaurus.
Fair enough. But I think the problem is also partially that I do not have all the relevant information. Let's say, in an entirely hypothetical exercise, that WotC found out they could sell 1 million more Magic cards per year by not having accurate prerelease spoilers, or could increase prerelease attendance by 10%. If this were indeed the case, one could say that R_E was getting the better end of this deal because he's cost WotC more than $90,000 by aiding the spoilers. I'm pretty sure most people would be quite angry if someone else's actions cost them a hundred thousand dollars and would see a lawsuit as justified.
No cease and desist.
Trying to get the default judgement.
What a bunch of crap!
These actions serve to prove that Wizards seems to care less about their fanbase and more about their pocketbooks.
Also, as far as an official word from the public faces of Wizards (Maro and co.) we've seen nothing. Granted, Maro and AF can't say anything... but what about the other writers? I realize they'd only agree. I know I'd agree to anything the people that sign my paychecks want me to, but it would be nice to know they're at least trying to understand many people's outrage, and not just people wanting it talked about openly as Maro mentioned.
I support Rancored_Elf. He's a really great person and has in no way done anything a fan of the game wouldn't.
I'd also like to offer a huge thank you to Jay Shergill. You have done a very noble thing. I'm quite sure many people (especially R_E) jumped for joy at your willingness to take the case... and doing it pro bono is even better. You rock!
Short Answer. No.
Why? It hurts Their Image. WoTC has had Several Falling outs with fans in the past years. This just makes them look more like WoTC of Hasbro. with no will of their own beyond that of the Mother-Company.
Many Many Many people have tried to post Fake Play-test cards in the past and pass them off as real. And most times we the Rumor-Mill posters have discounted them as such. The Cards in Question that have spawned this Litigation were thought to be "fakery" by a large portion of the community because of many factors. Some people posted that these cards were "crap" and Wizards would never print such cards that would be bad. The reaction to the Posted Playtest cards as being subpar to the point were many people said they would never buy packs with such utter uselessness in them is what prompted Wizards/Hasbro informants to action in my Opinion.
Edit- If you look at some of the past cards that have been deemed "fakery" some of them are pretty damn close to the ones RE posted. MTG.Com has posted on their very own site old Playtest sticker-cards. Any schlub how wanted to pull a "fast-one" on RE could have just used those Photoshopped them a bit and printed them out.
I do not think any of the Good people involved with the Magic Brand had any doing in this. Hasbro decided to root out these "Leakers" who have blatantly broke NDAs by going after RE.
To do so in such a Heavy Handed manner is bad form.
If Daron does not bring us leaks and spoilers in the future some one else will. Because of the nature of many people it will only flourish.
It is my sincerest hope that everything comes out right in the end for you Daron.
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Hey man, Is it as most of us suspected? That they are trying to use you to get to john doe 1-10?
I feel so sorry for all you're having to go through. I wish we could get some media support behind this. Surely this type of case would be an embarisment on Hasbro if the facts were laid out.
See, you can't actually put a hard value on an idea. You certainly can't put a hard value on a concept.
The thing I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around here is how Daron and his supporters can genuinely feel they're in the right here. No offense to you, sir, I'm sure you don't need a kick in the ribs right now. But you did do something wrong - you took information that you had no right to disseminate and disseminated it. That's not wrong now? It's against the law, surely that indicates that you shouldn't have done it.
Should Wizards have filed the lawsuit? Well, if they didn't, if a VS designer were to do the exact same thing, except, say, disseminate it to all his coworkers, then scoop Wizards with their own mechanic, then he'd be able to claim that Wizards' inaction to Mr. Rutter - which I will note has been continuing for five years, - would indicate that he shouldn't be hit either.
Re mentions in spoiler posts that he trusts the source because he's dealt with them before. This means that Wizards' attempts to block spoilers, wizards' confidential sources, are not being caught. They have to take a fairly draconian action, and in this instance, Wizards aren't the ones going for the 90k. They've let a dog off its leash and because the dog knows what it's doing, they're letting it call the shots. You think Wizards expects to get 90k out of Daron? They're not idiots here, people. They have to wield a big stick here, because this is a big deal.
It sucks that RE's getting squished at the end of it. He seems a nice guy and it seems unfair on a human level.
But he still did something he shouldn't have done, for five years, and showed no remorse - I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that that somehow can be ignored on the merits of He's a Nice Guy.
We deplore illegal activity - especially stuff like information dissemination - when it's in the stock market. Why? Because it hurts people. It kicks people in the jimmies and we can see the mums and dads who lose out. In this instance, we don't get to see those people. We don't see the playtesters who loved the work they did and now aren't allowed to ever talk to Wizards employees again because Wizards can't run the risk that they're the ones who violated the NDA.
People are breaking contract, repeatedly to get this information to Daron. How else are Wizards going to find it? They're a company, not a police force. They have to use the means the law provides them.
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Something is not wrong simply because it is illegal. Consider civil disobedience. Neither is something necessarily illegal because it is wrong. Consider the McCarthy trials. These are extreme examples, but the point is the same. Just because something *might* be illegal doesn't mean its wrong.
How else? Well, they could have started by asking. If that didn't work, they still had their lawsuit.
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As far as I know, whenever WotC has asked either R_E or MTGS to do (or stop doing) something, they have complied. In particular, as soon as Wizards asked MTGS to remove the playtest cards from the web, and to delete all threads concerning them, MTGS complied. Not only did it comply in fact, but it also requested its users not to start new ones and did not allow copies of them to be put back up on the site. If Wizards (or Hasbro) had asked R_E for all the information he has on the sources who give out the information, I'm quite confident he would have provided whatever he had (IM screenames, codenames, whatever he has) even if it's not much. This IMO is why the answer is no, they shouldn't have filed the lawsuit, because even though it is their legal right to do so it is far more civil to try and compromise before launching an attack. Especially on a human being.
My decks:
Standard - MUC, Glittering Wish Control, Battle of Wits
Extended - White Rock, UW Control, Train Wreck
Legacy - SI, UbaStax, CounterSlivers
Vintage - Manaless Ichorid, Flash, Gush-a-Tog
Highlander - Burn, MUC
I test on MWS!
1. That the best way for wotc to stop the spoilers, would be to contact RE and tell him to stop, or they'll sue him, as just flat out suing him wouldn't do anything, the info would still come from another source.
2. That RE's actions were illegal, whether or not spoilers are right or wrong, and whether or not you like them.
I disagree with both of these.
1. Say I ruled a country, and a bunch of people were doing something I didn't want them to do. Rather than talking to each one, warning them to stop, if I just went out and shot one, making sure the others knew about it, they'd probably stop. Same deal, making an example of RE.
2. I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not totally sure (could someone with legal knowledge clear it up), but isn't RE just the same as reporter? If a news presenter went on TV and announced that cremate was being reprinted, or any other piece of spoiler info, and they had gotten it from a source, would that be any different? (I think someone brought it up when the suit was first announced, but I'd like some clarification) Perhaps the playtest cards issue might be different, but they already contacted mtgs and told them to remove that stuff, and they did.
Wizards had full legal and moral right to file the lawsuit, R_E, even though he was doing this for others and it was not causing direct loss of earnings to the WOTC (At this time), he is still in direct viloation of several copyright laws. Though the breach of contract charge is unethical, but hell what do you expect from one of the largest law firms in the country. Court rooms are not nice places. I have double checked about this case with both an accomplished Lawyer and a second year law student, and they are both of the opionion that WOTC is correct in this case.
Oh The contract breach can be applyed to the John doe's though.
R_E, You need to get this case to a jury, becouse in a jury people should be sympathetic, and you will be able to get off.
for he is the messenger between the spheres
and the traveler between the realms of the living and the dead.
He shall summon forth the ancient ones
and wake them from their deathly slumber
then shall the elder signs be shattered.
Trade Thread
I disagree.
I was mentally preparing a response about civil disbedience, but Haloscope beat me to the punch. I strongly agree with him that legal prerogative does not always equal moral prerogative.
To me, this is the bottom line. No ifs, ands or buts about it. It trumps every other argument about this subject.
It saddens me that this has happened, and I support R_E to the fullest, not just because I like spoilers, but because I don't want to see a man and his family financially destroyed by a corporate lawsuit. Even if you think he's done something wrong (and I don't) it should be apparent that this isn't the best solution.
I've been beaten to the punch on this one too, but it seems to me they've used a last-resort tactic prematurely. A C&D order would have probably been sufficient. I'm not a lawyer though, so what do I know.
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