As for the six threads, three of them were removed, based on a hunch by me (and several other members) on Friday and Saturday. They were the threads mentioning the next block, including the scan of playtest stickers (or something that looked like that). The other threads, which had nothing to do with the next block, are now also removed. I hope that's sufficient to satisfy this "dmca complaint" against Hannes.
Okay, so 3 threads about "Snap"/"TS", including the playtest scans of dubious realism. No surprises here.
But what where the other 3 that did not have anything to do with the next block? I'm assuming they were Guildpact-related?
Give us some info to see if we can deduce a pattern, please!
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GDS1 & GDS2 entrant. Former Rules Advisor & casual-level TO. Semi-lapsed player in general.
My general thoughts on the issue, now that I've had time to calm down since thursday night, when I kind of got +x/+0 and trample for (berserk reference for you youngins out there) and had a post or two deleted (I think)
First off, I'm sick of reading the "well its their right to do this so screw R_E lolz (subtext: even though his work is almost certainly the reason I got involved with this site)" posts. If someone has performed a service for you and so many other people, you owe them at the very least some gratitude and respect.
Next, boring side-note about myself: I'm strongly in favor of the capitalist system and the necessary legal infrastructure such a system requires - patent laws, IP protection, etc. I haven't started law school yet (about 2 years before that happens) so I won't even make a conjecture about to what extent, if any, wizards are legally justified in their current course of action. However, despite how difficult it may be for some rasied in our very litigious society to to realize this, a justifed action does not mean necessarily mean an intelligent and/or proper action. Just because a law exists that allows you to needlessly complicate the life of a person that helps you feed your kids, and you are presently on some kind of delusional power trip, does not mean that it is a good idea to do so. Especially when you agitate several thousand other people that help you feed your kids along the way. I like to think that I am a rational person, at least certainly more so than the majority of people I interact with in my life every day. However, I do not use the criteria of whether or not people are justified in their actions as my sole (or even most important) factor in evaluating them, I like to go by whether their actions benefit me or harm me.
Granted I'm not the average "timmy" that spends his $5 per week allowance on saviors of kamigawa packs. Averaging out the past few jobs I've worked at, I make about $20 an hour, and I'm something of a workaholic (read: 50+ hours/week if I'm off from school). In conclusion, I, like most people on this site, I would imagine, have spent so much money on this game that I probably could have afforded 3 or 4 black market kidneys for my grandmother instead. (This was basically a joke, her kidneys are fine) I'm about to start a second job for the semester, with the compensation for said job going primarily into a dual land fund. But this recent nonsense has forced me to rethink that position. Remember, in a capitalist system, the market is essentially an ongoing referendum with regard to the performance of corporations. If you like their product/behavior, vote "yes" by purchasing their product and giving them money. If not, vote no by taking your gf (or bf) out on an extra date once per week, or getting a new video game, or god forbid, saving your money.
Until Wizards takes a more respectful position toward their players, I choose to vote no.
During the year, I don't have much time for Magic. Between my classes, job(s), friends, and usual college hijinx, I would probably not have even stayed with the game were it not for the work of R_E and the other rumor mill mods. I was pleased to see someone else (sorry, forgot name and I wont be hitting the back button now) describe the apex of the rumor season as "like Christmas, but for a month and a half" because that's exactly what I said to my gf last week when she asked why I was going to get out of bed a 7AM on a Saturday to go play some game. Checking the rumor mill on a regular basis keeps me involved with the game, gets me psyched about upcomming sets, and motivates me to go to the stinkin' prerelease when I could instead be catching up on the sleep deficit I incurred over the past 7 days. Honestly, if I were forced to get all my info on new sets from the soon-to-be esablished "Ministry of Previews" over at the circus commonly referred to as mtg.com, I wouldn't even come close to making the effort.
I was going to rant some more about the general topic of people complaining about spoilers, but I'll do so later
*Self-appointed president and founder of the Bureau of Proper land-related spelling . . . . . . please, people!
It's d-u-a-l ! Technically speaking, even a plains is a "duel" land*
interestingly enough, as I was reading this thread I recieved an email in response to my message to Corporate at Wizards.
here is the reply:
Thank you for contacting Wizards and for your genuine concern, however
we cannot comment on pending litigation. There are some very good
discussions going on the different magic board that you might want to
check out including http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=572069.
Just to let you know we are listening to your feedback.
Again, thank you for taking the time to email us.
Corporate Information
-----Original Message-----
From: james@livethislife.net [mailto:james@livethislife.net]
Sent: Friday, January 20, 2006 8:20 AM
To: Corporate Info
Subject: In regards to lawsuits against MTGSalvation
I would just like to communicate my displeasure at these tactics Wizards
of the Coast and Hasbro are using.
I, for one, am always excited to read newly leaked cards on
MTGSalvation.
Since I found MTGSalvation (and previous sites that rancored_elf has
posted on) I have attended 3 prereleases of a possible 3. That means
that
the service that rancored_elf provides to the Magic community has gotten
me excited about sets enough to want to go play with them early. In the
past, before I knew how to find spoilers online I had chances to attend
prereleases but never did because I didn't care enough about the sets
coming out. Now I find myself daily checking MTGSalvation.com for new
information and counting down the days until the prerelease.
For Wizards of the Coast and Hasbro to treat a member of their gaming
community in such a manner is pathetic.
I won't go so far as to throw threats out about "not buying cards" and
"not going to play the game anymore" because I realize that to a large
corporation such as Hasbro...I don't matter.
And that, I believe, is the heart of this issue. Money matters, not the
players.
It's a sad, sad day.
so...that is quite interesting. Now I wonder if I recieved a
cooky-cutter reply or if what I got was valid and true.
Anyone else get a reply yet?
1. MTGS and R_E are only sharing information that other parties (sources) voluntarily disclose to them. What is illegal about telling other people a rumor that someone has told you? How those sources obtain this information is a private matter that R_E and MTGS are not a party to. As for unpublished images, if someone sends you a picture by email and you show it to someone else is that illegal? This could be an image they made themselves, obtained from someone else or simply liked and duplicated using scanning equipment. As long as the image itself is not illegal in nature (e.g. offensive, pornographic or otherwise restricted in the country it is displayed in), how can making that image available to others be illegal?
2. I have been playing MTG for years, since before Ice Age came out and I've seen it have it's lows (censoring "demonic" art work, the removal of the Demon creature type etc. due to pressure from special interest groups) and highs (Invasion block! and the return of Demons in Onslaught). This is by far the lowest point I've seen so far.
Sadly I think we are seeing the reality of the people running this game. It is no longer a game. Behind the screen of semi humourous web articles on the web pages and interviews in gaiming magazines we now see the way the game is really viewed by those who own it. It is a money making machine. Their customers are cash cows, and they are trying to find the best way to milk them. What WoTC either don't realise or don't care about is that they are sucking the very life from the game with actions like this. It ceases to be fun, and therefore it ceases to be a game.
I love Magic, it's always been a great game but I refuse to support a company that would take measures like this. I would like to see high profile players voice their opinions on this loudly and publicly.
In the end I disagree with the previous poster who said that a boycott would not work. I think it is the only thing that will work. currently MTG is a financially viable, and profitable enterprise. It is in their interests to maintain this. They gain nothing by shutting the game down and putting their resources into other areas. By keeping the game going they generate more resources for themselves!
My approach: Buy the cards you want. Buy them from shops, online or from your friends and play in whatever environment you want EXCEPT sanctioned tournaments. Don't buy Boosters. Let the shops do that. The less boosters sold and the lower attendance at tournaments gets the more the message gets through.
I would gladly swap to another game similar to MTG now. I have not lost my loyalty to the game, but to the makers of it. What other players need to decide is how the want to be viewed by Hasbro. By doing nothing we passively acept their behaviour and encourage them to do whatever they want in the future.
To everyone who reads this: I encourage you to email R_E and Hannes with messages of support, and where you are qualified to Legal advice as this is whjat they primarily need now, to express you disapproval to WoTC in every way you can, by email and in person at sanctioned events you attend.
This stinks. They cannot identify their leaks and take action against them so they attack the only visible link in the chain - the final messenger R_E.
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I'm old school, about as OLD school as they get. think 4th Edition/Ice Age old school. Unfortunatley in the "Real world" you cant Incinerate your bank manager and sadly now I have joined the ranks of the older population, and my time is taken up by things like reasearching Mortgage Refinance Rates and where to get the best possible mortgage quotes. I have however discovered the joys of Online Forex Trading which at least allows me to keep the bills in check!
that's what i'm saying...just move the servers to another country...it works with the torrent webpages i use, the US can't touch them...i know here in canada we can d/l songs or whatever and not get in trouble, but ppl in the US can't or they can be fined or go to jail.
so how can they even touch r_e since he's in canada? becuz wouldn't they be exercising the same copyright laws that aren't effective here already, with respect to the recording and motion picture industries?
I believe torrent works a bit differently then this in some countries which allow it to exploit loopholes in DMCA.
Canada has various treaties and agreements with the U.S. so cases like this can be occur (and R_E was posting on servers that are located in texas). The case might occur before a different nations court system, but R_E would still be nowhere near untouchable.
Moving the servers so you can still post threads like those in question seems a bit drastic, besides unethical and wrong.
I encourage you to email R_E and Hannes with messages of support
This is exactly what they have requested you to NOT dO.
What is illegal about telling other people a rumor that someone has told you?
This will hold up in court about as much as saying you called the back seat first.
And everyone who thinks "You've been letting us get away with it for years so it must be okay"
What?
Is a crime any less illegal if you get away with it?
I agree that Wizards isn't making a wise decision here, but too many of you are destroying this game for yourself getting worked up over it. Send you concern to wizards, but don't start running around saying death to Magic just because Wizards started doing what they are legally allowed to.
Sadly I think we are seeing the reality of the people running this game. It is no longer a game. Behind the screen of semi humourous web articles on the web pages and interviews in gaiming magazines we now see the way the game is really viewed by those who own it. It is a money making machine. Their customers are cash cows, and they are trying to find the best way to milk them. What WoTC either don't realise or don't care about is that they are sucking the very life from the game with actions like this. It ceases to be fun, and therefore it ceases to be a game.
I completely agree. Its very hard to get anyone to understand it though... I urge people to make it known that this behavior cannot continue.
And anyone that supports Wizards/Hasbro, while being legally correct, are only making this a lot worse for those that are being crushed by something we love. Honestly, can you say this doesn't bother you at all?
Its not about spoilers, its about a large corporation trying to aquire every dollar they can, even if it means losing the longest lasting and most supportive fans they have.
Wizards, a cease and desist would have been just fine.
Players, a petition or some form of protest is in order.
End of Discussion.
Quote from Heidrek »
To everyone who reads this: I encourage you to email R_E and Hannes with messages of support, and where you are qualified to Legal advice as this is whjat they primarily need now, to express you disapproval to WoTC in every way you can, by email and in person at sanctioned events you attend.
I'm quite sure Hannes and especially R_E have received thousands. Its a nice gesture, but I'm willing to bet they're ready for some peace and quiet now.
A lot of people are mad and are saying, "Well, screw wizards. They're hurting themselves." Not true. Not many will boycott to save a website such as this from a lawsuit that is probably just to scare us into never posting rumors again. They obviously hate the rumor mill and now want to take it down, and have every legal right to do so. I'm not saying I support their brash actions that seem a bit harsh and have come up all of a sudden, but they kinda have a point.
@gamerk : Hmm, weird, I would've thought that internet journalism does have a right to exist. Meaning by this that you can indeed report false information, or real, and get away with it as long as you say it's a rumor. Just think of the tabloïd trash that litters the newstand. THEY certainly go even further, reporting private information, and yet big and powerful men still can't touch them through legal actions. As long as they state it's a rumor.
Besides, the job Rancored_elf assumes on these boards is not unique, as Hydro and Seds are also all-stars of the rumor-mill, and I can't seem to understand the fact they left them out of the legal actions. Simply put, yes, the playtest cards were a big goof, but to me, it was simply a leak that had a fake on it until Wizards went beserk over it. The goof seems more lilely the fact of acknowledging that these were indeed playtest cards made by Wizards.
And crime?? First, there should have been a warning or a cease and desist for the lawsuit, and for the DMCA thing, it seems like THAT is the cease-and-desist. But then again, why do it as an afterthought??? And I still very much doubt there IS a crime commited here, as no one save the sources know if a given info is true or not. Revealing top-secret names of agents risking their lives is one thing, as ther government has to act wether this is real or not, to protect that simple fact and the people that depend on it. This is a different matter entirely, as the ones whose life is most affected are simply doing what they alwas did. They never "got away with it", they simply did what was aked of them. You don't jail a cop because he kills a criminal, you jail him if he abuses his powers. I doubt RE or Hannes have coerced anyone in keeping Salvation the best source of REAL new info. They got the good contacts because of their professionnalism and because these people know they will be heard and believed if they come through RE and MtgSalvation! How is being good at spreading info a crime?? Enlighten me please.
This information also was available in a zone that states "spoiler", so all those complaining it ruins the game are making fools of themselves. You look if you want, period. Your opponent knows and you don't?? You still are playing the same game, the skills have to be there anyways, knowledge does not mean victory. Skills usually do. Gamerk can testify (or his cat) on that. No one ruins the game for themselves. They ruin the image they had of the company that makes the game though. We all still love Magic, but we also should let Wizards know we don't approve. It might not matter in the end, but doing this will at least proove we exist and care. Add to that that it might be seen as a bad move by the instigator, and get him fired so someone more competent can be hired, whom shall remember how and WHY he got his post. Impossible I know, but then again, last year, I thought split mana symbols were impossible
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Our way of thinking is overated,
in fact thinking is overated.
But then again, can we really pretend what we do is thinking??
This whole thread makes me just want to go get Kazaa again and start downloading movies, since it's okay as long as I'm not the one who made them available in the first place.
hmm. I think they can't expect that we will buy something if they don't tell us what it is.
Ask anyone who started the game pre-Ice Age if that's the case. I know I didn't rely on spoilers when I first started in the days of Unlimited and Revised.
Not to mention the userbase of this site, registered users or not, is a fraction of the existing player base, so there's plenty of people out there who buy the product without knowing the content.
OK, stop right there. Money you donated to a children's hospital went to that children's hospital. It is illegal to use funds sent in for charity in any other way except for what is was intended for. You not donating to those charities only hurts the people you wanted to help in the first place. It would have zero effect on Hasbro.
Please people, think before you post stuff like this, because some people may believe the nonsense.
False, that is what happened in my country. There is a National fund raising show every year which I used to donate to patients with kidney failures. Until recently, news reported that the directors of that charity are having golden walls and golden bathrooms in their houses, whereas the patients are still not having their status improved. To make matters worse, the number of fund raising shows increases from once every year to nearly twice every month! Of course, the truth breaks when people realize that the money has been embezzled by the directors. And now, the amount they raised at every charity show is always only 10% of the target.
Please, open up your eyes and take a look at what I liked to call 'corruption'. Whether Hasbro has it or not, I have no idea. I'm not going to jump into conclusions here, but you can't be 100% certain of what happened to the money you donated.
Quote from Aaron Forsythe on Guildpact: Twenty Questions »
When Guildpact was handed over from design, it also had seven gold rares per guild,... and that the seventh gold rare in each guild was less important to the set than the Nephilim. So each guild is down a rare in this set.
Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
Wow, I guess they think by alienating the users they will acheive anything.... Oh well my boycott continues and I have even been encouraging people at my local shop to sign a petition and stop buying wotc products.
The complaint IS valid Hannes but they seem to be doing it out of spite more than anything
I happen to agree that WotC is out of line, but I hardly think that a boycott is the answer, nor should a lawsuit be a reason to stop playing Magic. I certainly am upset about this just as much as anyone, and I love this site; I check it regularly, but I think it would be kind of silly to boycott WotC over this.
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WUBRGBringers WUBZur UBRMishra Impossible RGWKavu Predator/ Tamanoa RWStonehewer Giant UGEternal Dominion (stinks!) WUBRGPrimal Beyond/ Horde of Notions BRGJund Multiplayer Mid-Range control (for my casual league)
I happen to agree that WotC is out of line, but I hardly think that a boycott is the answer, nor should a lawsuit be a reason to stop playing Magic. I certainly am upset about this just as much as anyone, and I love this site; I check it regularly, but I think it would be kind of silly to boycott WotC over this.
Im curious, how did the server end up being in Texas when Hannes is in switzerland? It just seems, so, random.
Half the net is hosted in Texas. Very few system administrators use their servers as chairs, y'know.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I think you put it the best way of all the post I have read so far.
I also think that by MTGS putting the spoiler out only a few weeks ahead didn't create that large of a ripple in the pond for Wizards to worry about. But showing off cards from "Snap" was a boat thrown into a puddle. Although the scans (from my knowledge) were of cards already printed in other sets, learning that Flanking and Morph coming back (supposedly) is something that doesn't really make me that excited about the next block. Causing me to have low expectations for, and possibly not playing.
As far as people boycotting Wizards, as said before you have to boycott Hasbro, one of the largest game industry in america, if not the world. Good luck with that. And also for every 1 person boycotting, there are probably 2-3 people learning the game and getting excited about it.
Wizards seeing the spoilers as an advantage to other players its just a stupid statement. Pros have secrets all the time, and thats how they win most of the time, through skill and suprise. If it was something like "spoiler players" getting an advantage pro players would be forced to release their playtesting information about decks to the public.
I am no law major (I am an algebra major) but from what I understand from friends who are law majors, what wizards is doing is completely justified, but is also used mainly as a scare tactic. The case will go to court and wizards will drop the case once everyone knows that they are serious about situation concerning things like this.
Well if you happen to find out about certain cards in a set a year away,and you dont like them and it causes you not to play,then finding out about those same cards when you go to the prerealse will just piss you off.
Maybe wizards will print better sets I dont know,but I do know if someone wants to boycott they should.
Its the only thing Hasbro and wizards understand.
I cannot believe anyone on this website would have the nerve to suggest that they agree with the legal action and/or spoilers are bad. What a bunch of hypocrites. I am ashamed I know you.
I've never agreed with these sorts of things like the latest (DMCA). It's a bit like the military crying foul if you intercept one of their encrypted signals. (My suggestion to the lot: if you don't want it public, don't broadcast it. Keep it secret). There's not much point in removing it after the fact. While the web certainly gives the impression of deletion, you really cannot un-say what has been said.
This action is nothing more than a tantrum. It's loud and violent and accomplishes little.
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"If you desire the spleen, and will laugh yourself into stitches, follow me." -- Twelfth Night
I've never agreed with these sorts of things like the latest (DMCA). It's a bit like the military crying foul if you intercept one of their encrypted signals. (My suggestion to the lot: if you don't want it public, don't broadcast it. Keep it secret). There's not much point in removing it after the fact. While the web certainly gives the impression of deletion, you really cannot un-say what has been said.
they need to playtest the cards before they release. or godforbid another skullclamp comes along...
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[thread=52196][Alliance of Rogue Deckers!][/thread][My Cube List]
@gamerk: Ok about the mesages of support thing. Witht he benefit of hindsight I agree that they probably have had plenty of these, I just hated the idea that nobody would bother to let them know they supported them.
Regarding reporting rumours though, I still don't see the illegality here. One person tells you what they think, and you pass this information on to others, where is the problem with that? Lets say I'm a source and I approach R_E and say "there will be a new artifact that cost 3 and can be sac'd for 3 mana in any combination of colours in the upcoming set". R_E decides to believe it and reports it to the Mill. What law is being broken here?
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I'm old school, about as OLD school as they get. think 4th Edition/Ice Age old school. Unfortunatley in the "Real world" you cant Incinerate your bank manager and sadly now I have joined the ranks of the older population, and my time is taken up by things like reasearching Mortgage Refinance Rates and where to get the best possible mortgage quotes. I have however discovered the joys of Online Forex Trading which at least allows me to keep the bills in check!
@gamerk: Ok about the mesages of support thing. Witht he benefit of hindsight I agree that they probably have had plenty of these, I just hated the idea that nobody would bother to let them know they supported them.
Regarding reporting rumours though, I still don't see the illegality here. One person tells you what they think, and you pass this information on to others, where is the problem with that? Lets say I'm a source and I approach R_E and say "there will be a new artifact that cost 3 and can be sac'd for 3 mana in any combination of colours in the upcoming set". R_E decides to believe it and reports it to the Mill. What law is being broken here?
goddammit do i have to repeat myself? there is a non disclosure agreement. It says that you cant tell these cards to anyone.
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[thread=52196][Alliance of Rogue Deckers!][/thread][My Cube List]
@gamerk: Ok about the mesages of support thing. Witht he benefit of hindsight I agree that they probably have had plenty of these, I just hated the idea that nobody would bother to let them know they supported them.
Regarding reporting rumours though, I still don't see the illegality here. One person tells you what they think, and you pass this information on to others, where is the problem with that? Lets say I'm a source and I approach R_E and say "there will be a new artifact that cost 3 and can be sac'd for 3 mana in any combination of colours in the upcoming set". R_E decides to believe it and reports it to the Mill. What law is being broken here?
The forum rule that says don't start fake rumors.
You are either breaking the forum rules or breaking an NDA.
goddammit do i have to repeat myself? there is a non disclosure agreement. It says that you cant tell these cards to anyone.
[/SIZE]
Thing is, RE is under no NDA and if the people providing said info are NOT telling him they ARE under NDA, he can not possible be held responsible for the information being "illegal" as he was never informed of it being such before it was given to him.
Heh, I'm new to forums.
I've said it many times... let's get a petition started.
Okay, so 3 threads about "Snap"/"TS", including the playtest scans of dubious realism. No surprises here.
But what where the other 3 that did not have anything to do with the next block? I'm assuming they were Guildpact-related?
Give us some info to see if we can deduce a pattern, please!
Sig banner by Xyre.
My MTG Blog (inactive)
GDS1 & GDS2 entrant. Former Rules Advisor & casual-level TO. Semi-lapsed player in general.
First off, I'm sick of reading the "well its their right to do this so screw R_E lolz (subtext: even though his work is almost certainly the reason I got involved with this site)" posts. If someone has performed a service for you and so many other people, you owe them at the very least some gratitude and respect.
Next, boring side-note about myself: I'm strongly in favor of the capitalist system and the necessary legal infrastructure such a system requires - patent laws, IP protection, etc. I haven't started law school yet (about 2 years before that happens) so I won't even make a conjecture about to what extent, if any, wizards are legally justified in their current course of action. However, despite how difficult it may be for some rasied in our very litigious society to to realize this, a justifed action does not mean necessarily mean an intelligent and/or proper action. Just because a law exists that allows you to needlessly complicate the life of a person that helps you feed your kids, and you are presently on some kind of delusional power trip, does not mean that it is a good idea to do so. Especially when you agitate several thousand other people that help you feed your kids along the way. I like to think that I am a rational person, at least certainly more so than the majority of people I interact with in my life every day. However, I do not use the criteria of whether or not people are justified in their actions as my sole (or even most important) factor in evaluating them, I like to go by whether their actions benefit me or harm me.
Granted I'm not the average "timmy" that spends his $5 per week allowance on saviors of kamigawa packs. Averaging out the past few jobs I've worked at, I make about $20 an hour, and I'm something of a workaholic (read: 50+ hours/week if I'm off from school). In conclusion, I, like most people on this site, I would imagine, have spent so much money on this game that I probably could have afforded 3 or 4 black market kidneys for my grandmother instead. (This was basically a joke, her kidneys are fine) I'm about to start a second job for the semester, with the compensation for said job going primarily into a dual land fund. But this recent nonsense has forced me to rethink that position. Remember, in a capitalist system, the market is essentially an ongoing referendum with regard to the performance of corporations. If you like their product/behavior, vote "yes" by purchasing their product and giving them money. If not, vote no by taking your gf (or bf) out on an extra date once per week, or getting a new video game, or god forbid, saving your money.
Until Wizards takes a more respectful position toward their players, I choose to vote no.
During the year, I don't have much time for Magic. Between my classes, job(s), friends, and usual college hijinx, I would probably not have even stayed with the game were it not for the work of R_E and the other rumor mill mods. I was pleased to see someone else (sorry, forgot name and I wont be hitting the back button now) describe the apex of the rumor season as "like Christmas, but for a month and a half" because that's exactly what I said to my gf last week when she asked why I was going to get out of bed a 7AM on a Saturday to go play some game. Checking the rumor mill on a regular basis keeps me involved with the game, gets me psyched about upcomming sets, and motivates me to go to the stinkin' prerelease when I could instead be catching up on the sleep deficit I incurred over the past 7 days. Honestly, if I were forced to get all my info on new sets from the soon-to-be esablished "Ministry of Previews" over at the circus commonly referred to as mtg.com, I wouldn't even come close to making the effort.
I was going to rant some more about the general topic of people complaining about spoilers, but I'll do so later
T2: :symu::symb: Jushi
Ext: :symb::symu: Psychorid
Legacy: :symu::symg::symr::symw: Gro
*Self-appointed president and founder of the Bureau of Proper land-related spelling . . . . . . please, people!
It's d-u-a-l ! Technically speaking, even a plains is a "duel" land*
here is the reply:
so...that is quite interesting. Now I wonder if I recieved a
cooky-cutter reply or if what I got was valid and true.
Anyone else get a reply yet?
I would say its pretty cookie-cutter, at least as far as this situation goes.
Notice how they imply that they're only watching their own boards? We should all know damn well they were/are watching this site closely.
I'm quite sure that had you written something that wasn't about the litigation, it would have read much the same way.
1. MTGS and R_E are only sharing information that other parties (sources) voluntarily disclose to them. What is illegal about telling other people a rumor that someone has told you? How those sources obtain this information is a private matter that R_E and MTGS are not a party to. As for unpublished images, if someone sends you a picture by email and you show it to someone else is that illegal? This could be an image they made themselves, obtained from someone else or simply liked and duplicated using scanning equipment. As long as the image itself is not illegal in nature (e.g. offensive, pornographic or otherwise restricted in the country it is displayed in), how can making that image available to others be illegal?
2. I have been playing MTG for years, since before Ice Age came out and I've seen it have it's lows (censoring "demonic" art work, the removal of the Demon creature type etc. due to pressure from special interest groups) and highs (Invasion block! and the return of Demons in Onslaught). This is by far the lowest point I've seen so far.
Sadly I think we are seeing the reality of the people running this game. It is no longer a game. Behind the screen of semi humourous web articles on the web pages and interviews in gaiming magazines we now see the way the game is really viewed by those who own it. It is a money making machine. Their customers are cash cows, and they are trying to find the best way to milk them. What WoTC either don't realise or don't care about is that they are sucking the very life from the game with actions like this. It ceases to be fun, and therefore it ceases to be a game.
I love Magic, it's always been a great game but I refuse to support a company that would take measures like this. I would like to see high profile players voice their opinions on this loudly and publicly.
In the end I disagree with the previous poster who said that a boycott would not work. I think it is the only thing that will work. currently MTG is a financially viable, and profitable enterprise. It is in their interests to maintain this. They gain nothing by shutting the game down and putting their resources into other areas. By keeping the game going they generate more resources for themselves!
My approach: Buy the cards you want. Buy them from shops, online or from your friends and play in whatever environment you want EXCEPT sanctioned tournaments. Don't buy Boosters. Let the shops do that. The less boosters sold and the lower attendance at tournaments gets the more the message gets through.
I would gladly swap to another game similar to MTG now. I have not lost my loyalty to the game, but to the makers of it. What other players need to decide is how the want to be viewed by Hasbro. By doing nothing we passively acept their behaviour and encourage them to do whatever they want in the future.
To everyone who reads this: I encourage you to email R_E and Hannes with messages of support, and where you are qualified to Legal advice as this is whjat they primarily need now, to express you disapproval to WoTC in every way you can, by email and in person at sanctioned events you attend.
This stinks. They cannot identify their leaks and take action against them so they attack the only visible link in the chain - the final messenger R_E.
Canada has various treaties and agreements with the U.S. so cases like this can be occur (and R_E was posting on servers that are located in texas). The case might occur before a different nations court system, but R_E would still be nowhere near untouchable.
Moving the servers so you can still post threads like those in question seems a bit drastic, besides unethical and wrong.
This is exactly what they have requested you to NOT dO.
This will hold up in court about as much as saying you called the back seat first.
And everyone who thinks "You've been letting us get away with it for years so it must be okay"
What?
Is a crime any less illegal if you get away with it?
I agree that Wizards isn't making a wise decision here, but too many of you are destroying this game for yourself getting worked up over it. Send you concern to wizards, but don't start running around saying death to Magic just because Wizards started doing what they are legally allowed to.
I completely agree. Its very hard to get anyone to understand it though... I urge people to make it known that this behavior cannot continue.
And anyone that supports Wizards/Hasbro, while being legally correct, are only making this a lot worse for those that are being crushed by something we love. Honestly, can you say this doesn't bother you at all?
Its not about spoilers, its about a large corporation trying to aquire every dollar they can, even if it means losing the longest lasting and most supportive fans they have.
Wizards, a cease and desist would have been just fine.
Players, a petition or some form of protest is in order.
End of Discussion.
I'm quite sure Hannes and especially R_E have received thousands. Its a nice gesture, but I'm willing to bet they're ready for some peace and quiet now.
Artist Strikes Fish
Besides, the job Rancored_elf assumes on these boards is not unique, as Hydro and Seds are also all-stars of the rumor-mill, and I can't seem to understand the fact they left them out of the legal actions. Simply put, yes, the playtest cards were a big goof, but to me, it was simply a leak that had a fake on it until Wizards went beserk over it. The goof seems more lilely the fact of acknowledging that these were indeed playtest cards made by Wizards.
And crime?? First, there should have been a warning or a cease and desist for the lawsuit, and for the DMCA thing, it seems like THAT is the cease-and-desist. But then again, why do it as an afterthought??? And I still very much doubt there IS a crime commited here, as no one save the sources know if a given info is true or not. Revealing top-secret names of agents risking their lives is one thing, as ther government has to act wether this is real or not, to protect that simple fact and the people that depend on it. This is a different matter entirely, as the ones whose life is most affected are simply doing what they alwas did. They never "got away with it", they simply did what was aked of them. You don't jail a cop because he kills a criminal, you jail him if he abuses his powers. I doubt RE or Hannes have coerced anyone in keeping Salvation the best source of REAL new info. They got the good contacts because of their professionnalism and because these people know they will be heard and believed if they come through RE and MtgSalvation! How is being good at spreading info a crime?? Enlighten me please.
This information also was available in a zone that states "spoiler", so all those complaining it ruins the game are making fools of themselves. You look if you want, period. Your opponent knows and you don't?? You still are playing the same game, the skills have to be there anyways, knowledge does not mean victory. Skills usually do. Gamerk can testify (or his cat) on that. No one ruins the game for themselves. They ruin the image they had of the company that makes the game though. We all still love Magic, but we also should let Wizards know we don't approve. It might not matter in the end, but doing this will at least proove we exist and care. Add to that that it might be seen as a bad move by the instigator, and get him fired so someone more competent can be hired, whom shall remember how and WHY he got his post. Impossible I know, but then again, last year, I thought split mana symbols were impossible
in fact thinking is overated.
But then again, can we really pretend what we do is thinking??
Ask anyone who started the game pre-Ice Age if that's the case. I know I didn't rely on spoilers when I first started in the days of Unlimited and Revised.
Not to mention the userbase of this site, registered users or not, is a fraction of the existing player base, so there's plenty of people out there who buy the product without knowing the content.
False, that is what happened in my country. There is a National fund raising show every year which I used to donate to patients with kidney failures. Until recently, news reported that the directors of that charity are having golden walls and golden bathrooms in their houses, whereas the patients are still not having their status improved. To make matters worse, the number of fund raising shows increases from once every year to nearly twice every month! Of course, the truth breaks when people realize that the money has been embezzled by the directors. And now, the amount they raised at every charity show is always only 10% of the target.
Please, open up your eyes and take a look at what I liked to call 'corruption'. Whether Hasbro has it or not, I have no idea. I'm not going to jump into conclusions here, but you can't be 100% certain of what happened to the money you donated.
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Gruul, Izzet and Orzhov. Officially screwed by WOTC.
I happen to agree that WotC is out of line, but I hardly think that a boycott is the answer, nor should a lawsuit be a reason to stop playing Magic. I certainly am upset about this just as much as anyone, and I love this site; I check it regularly, but I think it would be kind of silly to boycott WotC over this.
WUBZur
UBRMishra Impossible
RGWKavu Predator/ Tamanoa
RWStonehewer Giant
UGEternal Dominion (stinks!)
WUBRGPrimal Beyond/ Horde of Notions
BRGJund Multiplayer Mid-Range control (for my casual league)
Any you suggest we.....?
Half the net is hosted in Texas. Very few system administrators use their servers as chairs, y'know.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
Well if you happen to find out about certain cards in a set a year away,and you dont like them and it causes you not to play,then finding out about those same cards when you go to the prerealse will just piss you off.
Maybe wizards will print better sets I dont know,but I do know if someone wants to boycott they should.
Its the only thing Hasbro and wizards understand.
sit and do nothing. because nothing has changed.
I've never agreed with these sorts of things like the latest (DMCA). It's a bit like the military crying foul if you intercept one of their encrypted signals. (My suggestion to the lot: if you don't want it public, don't broadcast it. Keep it secret). There's not much point in removing it after the fact. While the web certainly gives the impression of deletion, you really cannot un-say what has been said.
This action is nothing more than a tantrum. It's loud and violent and accomplishes little.
follow me." -- Twelfth Night
Regarding reporting rumours though, I still don't see the illegality here. One person tells you what they think, and you pass this information on to others, where is the problem with that? Lets say I'm a source and I approach R_E and say "there will be a new artifact that cost 3 and can be sac'd for 3 mana in any combination of colours in the upcoming set". R_E decides to believe it and reports it to the Mill. What law is being broken here?
goddammit do i have to repeat myself? there is a non disclosure agreement. It says that you cant tell these cards to anyone.
You are either breaking the forum rules or breaking an NDA.
Thing is, RE is under no NDA and if the people providing said info are NOT telling him they ARE under NDA, he can not possible be held responsible for the information being "illegal" as he was never informed of it being such before it was given to him.
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