Oh yes, boycotts will work. They worked wonders when Wizards introduced the new card face, which caused a hell of a lot more controversy than this. Anyone believing that this will cause any sort of impact on Magic sells is deluding themselves. The new card face didn't cause Magic sales to dip significantly, this won't either.
Why? Because the vast community doesn't care about this. You can't mobolize against WotC. You won't get 10,000 signatures. You won't even get 5,000. The new card face petition stalled out at around 5700 signatures.
I actually doubt that you'll get 2,000 signatures.
I'm pretty sure that RE knew that his sources were violating NDAs. After all, why would they want to remain anonomys? To avoid prosecution. RE has been complecent in those peoples crimes.
This is not WotC picking on the little guy. This is WotC taking a man to court who has not only facilitated the public release of their trade secrets and private information, but also someone who has profited from doing so. Rancored_Elf is a pirate. He's not some altruistic Robin Hood giving the people what they want from the big bad evil empire. He is complecent to the stealing of WotC's secrets. And WotC is well within their moral, ethical and legal rights to make him stop. In any way which is legal.
Also, I wonder, why now? I mean, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff too much lately, but R_E and others have been doing rumors for what seems like ages to me, I wonder why WotC decided to strike now. *shrug* It's not like they just learned about rumor mills or something...
Statute of Limitations probably. RE's been doing this for nearly 5 years now, which is the statute of limitations on this sort of violation.
Quote from M Shumate »
Did the new card face get protests in Europe? O_o
Considering the fact that there are European members on these boards, I'd say yes. But here's the thing, gauge people's reactions to this by the amount of rancor and flaming on the internet boards. The amount of anger at this is about 1/10th of what it was for the new card face. And if that blew over, so will this. The reason it isn't blowing over on this website is that this website was formed by Rancored_Elf worshipers who are convinced that he can do no wrong.
Please don't double post, and watch that you don't troll, thanks.
I wouldn't worry about it... The game will blow over soon if the trend continues... 3 expansions per year were a hard enough thing to keep the pace with. Now they are introducing a fourth expansion, which also happens to be T2 legal, just to boot the sales... Not many people will be able to keep pace with the current rythm... Sorry, to pay 50+ USD for a okayset of the new duals only to see them becoming obsolete in supported formats by wiazards in any shape or form, is ridiculous.
Yes yes, there is Extended and Leagcy and whatever... but frankly, these formats are more for show than thy are really supported... Nuff said... They have become a greedy coporate enterprise that will just ditch a product as soon as the sales hit a low...
quoted for truthery.
A far more pressing problem for wizards is if this 4 expansions per year trend continues. it will drive the cost of playing t2 up alot and more than likely drive many players away.
A far more pressing problem for wizards is if this 4 expansions per year trend continues. it will drive the cost of playing t2 up alot and more than likely drive many players away.
No, no it won't. It will simply mean there will be 4 expansions per year to buy singles from instead of 3. You still will only need 75 cards per deck and sideboard. I can't imagine that a 4th set in Type 2 will increase the average price of singles.
At the same time it will hurt the local card shop. It will hurt the set collectors. It will hurt casual players. One set every 3 months is too many. How much does wizards really make off of the players that buy one deck? I need BDW to win this season. It will cost me about $80.
The fact is, either R_E knew that it was illegal. Or if he didn't, he could have assumed that it was. Yet he posted them anyway.
Uhh, assumptions mean nothing in a trial. Either you have solid facts [R_E was told by his sources how the cards were illegally obtained] or you have no case. You cannot go to a trial and start claiming that any reasonably intelligent person would assume that the cards were illegally obtained. If that was Wizards only argument, they would lose.
A far more pressing problem for wizards is if this 4 expansions per year trend continues. it will drive the cost of playing t2 up alot and more than likely drive many players away.
It won't. Just like Unhinged, this is one of those "gimmicks" to get new players into, and old players back into, the game.
Oh yes, boycotts will work. They worked wonders when Wizards introduced the new card face, which caused a hell of a lot more controversy than this. Anyone believing that this will cause any sort of impact on Magic sells is deluding themselves. The new card face didn't cause Magic sales to dip significantly, this won't either.
Why? Because the vast community doesn't care about this. You can't mobolize against WotC. You won't get 10,000 signatures. You won't even get 5,000. The new card face petition stalled out at around 5700 signatures.
I actually doubt that you'll get 2,000 signatures.
I'm pretty sure that RE knew that his sources were violating NDAs. After all, why would they want to remain anonomys? To avoid prosecution. RE has been complecent in those peoples crimes.
This is not WotC picking on the little guy. This is WotC taking a man to court who has not only facilitated the public release of their trade secrets and private information, but also someone who has profited from doing so. Rancored_Elf is a pirate. He's not some altruistic Robin Hood giving the people what they want from the big bad evil empire. He is complecent to the stealing of WotC's secrets. And WotC is well within their moral, ethical and legal rights to make him stop. In any way which is legal.
I don't think R_E was profiting off of this. HE wasn't like say going to one of the sites and making it a premium thing where you have to pay. He was giving us the information for free. This guy isn't necissarly little but I do think they are picking on him too much. This is a sad, sad, day and this should have never happend. From what I heared about other cases of peole releasing info early on products that they could sue him a find him guilty even if he wasnt't stealing the info but getting for other people in the company. That might not be right but hey it could happen. We all know as far back when they had pokemon remeber how they shorted the product in the sense they had the product sold at GameKeepeer stores and they made it hard for the local card store to actually get the product but this was befoere they were bought out by Hasbro. WOTC isn't a bad empire its owned by Hasbro. I could unerstand your evil empire since they own Parker Brothers, Milton Bradely and Wizards so they basically have a huge share in industry of board games and other card games. The evil empire isn't even Hasbro. Its the one that makes Barbie Dolls, Bratz and all those Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars.
At the same time it will hurt the local card shop. It will hurt the set collectors. It will hurt casual players. One set every 3 months is too many. How much does wizards really make off of the players that buy one deck? I need BDW to win this season. It will cost me about $80.
see, the SEASON is just as long as it used to be, it's just the card pool gets deeper. You'll still be spending $80 or so to build a deck (significantly less if you trade effectively), but you'll just be dipping into more sets to get the cards. In fact, I can see this causing a spike in sales...in my area, it's not unusual to have people draft every week, or every couple weeks...this slows down a lot when there haven't been any new sets in a while. With Coldsnap, I could see people being a lot more enthusiastic about coming to FNM in the dead time.
Uhh, assumptions mean nothing in a trial. Either you have solid facts [R_E was told by his sources how the cards were illegally obtained] or you have no case. You cannot go to a trial and start claiming that any reasonably intelligent person would assume that the cards were illegally obtained. If that was Wizards only argument, they would lose.
Hasbro's lawyers probably have more evidence against R_E or else they wouldnt file a lawsuit yet. I am not saying that Hasbro based its lawsuit on just that. I dont even think its possible that the could have sued based only on the fact that R_E knew what he was doing is wrong.
Quote from Carl »
I don't think R_E was profiting off of this. HE wasn't like say going to one of the sites and making it a premium thing where you have to pay. He was giving us the information for free. This guy isn't necissarly little but I do think they are picking on him too much. This is a sad, sad, day and this should have never happend. From what I heared about other cases of peole releasing info early on products that they could sue him a find him guilty even if he wasnt't stealing the info but getting for other people in the company. That might not be right but hey it could happen. We all know as far back when they had pokemon remeber how they shorted the product in the sense they had the product sold at GameKeepeer stores and they made it hard for the local card store to actually get the product but this was befoere they were bought out by Hasbro. WOTC isn't a bad empire its owned by Hasbro. I could unerstand your evil empire since they own Parker Brothers, Milton Bradely and Wizards so they basically have a huge share in industry of board games and other card games. The evil empire isn't even Hasbro. Its the one that makes Barbie Dolls, Bratz and all those Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars.
first, R_E does profit. MTGS has advertisements here. IF more people come to see the spoilers, more people will be exposed to the ads. Plus R_E has his own website that sells cards. More people who know him, will probably buy off his website. Spoilers are a great way to attract people here.
second, I dont understand why you say Hasbro is evil. I do not think anyone here thinks that. Just that the Lawsuit was uncalled for.
A far more pressing problem for wizards is if this 4 expansions per year trend continues. it will drive the cost of playing t2 up alot and more than likely drive many players away.
I am not at all convinced that the 4 expansions a year will continue, If it does then I think it will be along the lines of the normal 3 serious expansions with one more silly type of set. Personally I think they should cut back to 2 sets per year. Even 3 seems like too much. I now have to get set up with Guildpact when I feel as though im not even done getting comfy with Ravnica and even Kamigawa block still feels fresh.
Im also wondering, what if the boycott or petition acually worked? would you guys expect wizards to roll over and tell you its ok to violate the DMCA? that its ok to post spoilers in advance?
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[FONT=Courier New]Uhh, assumptions mean nothing in a trial. Either you have solid facts [R_E was told by his sources how the cards were illegally obtained] or you have no case. You cannot go to a trial and start claiming that any reasonably intelligent person would assume that the cards were illegally obtained. If that was Wizards only argument, they would lose.[/FONT]
It doesn't matter if Rancored_Elf got the information legally or illegally. If he distributes it without WotC's approval, he is subject to the laws of copyright protection and trade secret protection.
Rather than include a quote i'll just reiterate a point of discussion. There must be proof that R_E knew that this information was illegally obtained. This may be hard to prove. I personally have always believed that Wizards intentionally releases leaks as sound business practice.
There is no instance where a virtual hemorhage of info would lose the company money. Limited magic is fun, pre-releases are fun and a good deal for the money generally speaking. In the standard format, there are always cards that will be needed for competitive decks regardless of how much a set subjectively sucks over all.
There are usually enough desirable cards in a set to purchase boxes rather than pay for secondary market cards which are available thanks to middlemen purchasing many cases. The last few sets I have made my money back on 2 boxes and retained enough chase rares and uncommons (not to mention a playset of commons) to keep my collection fresh and up to date.
In summary, leaks obviously got out of hand (hence the suit) but I guarantee you a constant flow of leakage was always intended from the first ones we ever saw.
It doesn't matter if Rancored_Elf got the information legally or illegally. If he distributes it without WotC's approval, he is subject to the laws of copyright protection and trade secret protection.
I think you're jumping the gun on whether this is indeed the legal description of trade secrets or copyright infringement. Wizards has no competitor to steal secrets.
Also, I wonder, why now? I mean, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff too much lately, but R_E and others have been doing rumors for what seems like ages to me, I wonder why WotC decided to strike now. *shrug* It's not like they just learned about rumor mills or something...
I'm just guessing here, but it's most likely because some of the rumors R_E's been posting (a mere fraction at this point) detailed sets that weren't due to come out for roughly 8 or 9 months. Considering most spoiler info doesn't come out for a given set until maybe 2-3 months before, that is a huge lead time, and points at some more serious, higher-up folks passing along information, instead of mere playtesters ducking around an NDA.
In other words, it indicated that the leaks, whoever they may be, were getting more serious with the info being passed along, and this pissed someone off. I'd imagine when this blows over, if R_E is still doing the rumor-gathering, things will be very different here.
And honestly, given the amount of time it takes between R_E spoiling a card, and people here deciding whether it is good or bad, the faster a set is spoiled, the sooner people simply decide to buy their stuff via the secondary market instead of buying packs directly, which does hurt Wizards' sales.
Oh, and online petitions are nearly useless and not particularly usable legally, since there's hardly any way to legitimately prove a specific person actually "signed" it, especially since a lot of people signing online petitions don't use their real names.
Random_Moniker: It may not be easy to prove that R_E knew his sources were under an NDA, but it could be easy for Wizards to prove that anyone who has direct access to cards or card info before the product was released was under an NDA, especially the earlier the card popped up in the public domain. Magazine preview cards might not count, but anything that wasn't previewed that way could.
As i do daily since i've heard about this, i'll try to sum up how things goes in my personal point of view:
Most french forums give support
As I mentioned earlier most french speaking forums give interst and moderate support (no call to arms but quietly showing their concerns) with the the noticable exception of mtgfrance where former french and european dci guys launched a flame assault, known as well for his prolevel member as for continuous trash talk contest this forum do his usual job, at least few ten thousand more pages viewed about this issues.
Why keeping the buzz hot ?
Just beacause if it fails it wouldn't have cost anything, if it succeed customers will have shown peacefully their concern about freedom of speeking about product they buy.
How to keep this buzz hot ?
I'm not a guy from marketing, just IT engineer... hey wait! IT is how buzz exist today !
WotC seem to want feedback before going further. Maybe it's because thei are good guys after all... or maybe they are just clever enough to look at customers and see what oposition this suit create. SO you can post about this on their message board here. 99% of readers here knows and read it already, but ask your self if you have spend 1 minut to post a polite support to R_E and MTGS and said that you, as customer, don't like this kind of behaviour. Remember that if WotC was all in on this action this forum wouldn't exist. It stay because they are steal clever enough to hear what their customers want.
Personally I try to spend few time on french speaking forums wich most use rumor mill. I try to convince people that #1 if a website use rumor mills they have to spend few time to support mtgs #2 as mtgs is attacked for spreadings infos, their own rumor mills push them in the same boat.
I know mtgs user are already on other worldwide oriented forums, can somebody try to coordinate things because a lot of guys read only their native language forums... Can anybody sum up the general mood on german, italian, spanish, japanase and so on forums ?
Petition, good idea but who is spreading it by now
As a personal opinion i started it as soon as saturday Preview in Dijon, France.
I made a 2 minuts speech with staff support. It was moderate (don't start throwing stones at everybody wearing judges shirts :tongue3: ) and i just told facts:
WotC use a legal weapons to shut down an important comunity site.
If you don't know mtgsalvation, you have to know that it feeds nearly EVERY rumor forums and spoiler list from others . It include YOUR own favorite web site.
WotC is suing MTGS because of spreading info, so if your favorite web site have rumor mills too, you have better to feel conerned.
The point of this action is not a poll for/against rumor mills, nobody is obliged to read. The point of this action is to protect customers. People who buy things have the rigth to coment it and beeing informed without corporate presure.
This is not anti WotC warfare, it's just to show them that consumers can't accept attack against comunity websites.
Here is the kind of paper i used, around 90% of players signed.
It took back up numeric shots of every pages and gave the paper to head judge.
It took less than ten minuts and it was a popular deed, so ask yourself why you wouldn't do the same at your next tournment ?
As you can see through my many language's mistakes, english is not my native language. This is the reason why i don't have already done it. Somebdy who speak perfectly english with formal but smart writing style is required to do that. All i can do is doing my best to try having a front page link on few french mtg websites and spread some links around forums.
Thx for reading and many thx for acting.
Frédéric Pauze, only a long time reader wich now spend few time to protect one of his favourit mtg website.
For those who don't belive in the size of protestation: only subjects I've personally posted on french forum make a sum of 30k read pages in 48h. Just imagine how much viewed pages this event have already created.
He is completely right, we should have already started something VERY SIMILAR. I will study for the rest of my calculus exam, do my normal day to day stuff, and hopefully later tonight I will recieve one or two PM's if not I will PM some people based on what they have written here to help me start one of these up. There is no harm in trying, the petition is free, and your membership and the information we have recieved and appreciated from R_E has been free.
THIS IS THE LEAST WE CAN DO.
We take 30 seconds of our time to put our full name and email address down.
The Goal of this IMO would be to drop the charges (if he still is being charged) or to ask Wizards directly that 1 month before the new set is released on to the shelves, Wizards puts up the spoiler themselves. So that this whole "she-bang" isn't a COMPLETE flop. R_E did a huge favor for US for years if you support him or not. He's done it. The least we can do is show Hasbro that we like magic, but we liked what R_E was doing as well.
I will help formalize and spread out the petition. I need help though. If you want to help PM me.
Disclaimer 1: I'm not a lawyer...but I play one on television.
Disclaimer 2: I only made it through the first 120 or so posts. I didn't have the willpower to push on.
Disclaimer 3: Jesus wept.
Quote from Belgareth »
They may THINK they are protecting their income, but first rule of business is "Keep your customers happy" and guess what ... We like rumours and we like RE.
Do you really believe that the first rule of business really is "keep your customers happy," honestly?
The first rule of business is "protect your shareholder's value." Keep your customer happy is a rule of customer service, at best. Failure to act in a manner that protects their copyrights is tanamount to failing to protect shareholder value.
Quote from Darksaber11 »
Wow, this is disgusting. Why can't Hasbro see how many people it is offending by doing this.
To those of you who who support these actions: Get a life. Seriously, how can you see these actions as justified. I don't really care if they have the legal right to do this, it's still spectacularly assinine.
To those out there who want to get the message across to Hasbro/Wizards: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/info/worldwide
Guess what Spanky? This is the real world and out here in the real world we like to engage in something called "life."
WotC and Hasbro have a moral duty and ethical obligation to protect their intelectual property. Failure to understand that obligation only proves that you live in a fantasy land where "Do as though will" is the whole of the law.
Grow up. Figure out the real world. Trust me, life's a lot better when you do.
Quote from theexistent1 »
First, let me state again I am a third year law student. That means that I am not an attorney, I have not passed the bar in any state or other jurisdiction. Any comment I give is not intended as nor should be construed as legal advice. Regardless, I know nothing substantive about intellectual property law. Additionally, nothing I say is intended as nor should be construed as forming an attorney-client relationship. If you need an attorney, look in the phone book for a legal services referral office or call your local bar association. Sorry for this disclaimer, but I could get into serious trouble (for instance never be able to be an attorney) if it seemed that I was giving legal advice without being an attorney.
Again, I am only a law student, not an attorney, and this is not intended as legal advice.
This guy is bright, he understands obligation, rules, and consequences.
Pay attention to him.
Actuall, don't pay attention to him (he wouldn't want that as it could be construed as legal advice) instead pay attention to what he said, what he didn't say, and how he said it.
Quote from GPM »
Bah... this is retarded... if it was illegal, they should have emailed R_e first instead announcing to world that they're in fact a bunch of douchebags. If it was wrong, they should have first given a warning before announcing the lawsuit.
Why is that exactly?
R_E announced his disregard for the law when he began posting stolen Intelectual Property. Wizards has made it very clear over the years what their policy on this matter is. If R_E continued to ignore that policy and he gets slapped with a lawsuit, it's his own damned fault. WotC isn't being mean, they're actually following their only legal recourse.
Quote from Annorax »
Simple fix: European hosting. If The Pirate Bay can sit on a Swedish webhost, reply to DMCA takedown notices with "kindly go **** yourself with a retractable baton," and not get busted because Swedish copyright laws are not as anal as American laws, surely Hannes can find something in Europe that works the same way.
Wow. You still haven't learned a damned thing, have you?
Quote from rancored_elf »
I wish WotC had contacted either me or MTGS before threatening these lawsuits. I've never been one to act unreasonably and would have definitely responded well to a request, by email, phone, even PM or IM. My information is always publicly displayed in case anyone wants to contact me.
Says the man who has been posting illicitly garnered information for the last four years. No, your actions have been totally reasonable and WotC is just a bad corporation picking on a little guy.
Your protestations of innocence ring somewhat hollow here.
WotC is the violated party, and your actions in regards to WotC have been less than legal, moral, or ethical. They have no obligation to be nice and polite to you when you have failed to act in kind.
Quote from Mark Rosewater »
Lemme just give my opinion on the boycotting: Please avoid this as it will not hurt Wizards nearly as badly as it will hurt the brick and mortar stores that are open for our convenience. Wizards is a large corporation and they make many different games. Boycotting one of these accomplishes... nothing. Except that sooner or later you will no longer have your cardshops as they will have long since died before WOTC feels any sting. This will just make it so you have to be stuck in the basement, donut shop, alleyway, park (wherever you play magic when not in your cardshop) playing Magic again.
This is a reasoned and intelligent post.
Good job.
If you yahoos decide to do something like boycott Wot over this, you only hurt your local card shops. Even with 9k registered members, you're barely a blip on WotC's p/l statements.
Quote from C0LD L0GIC »
That's my feelings on this. I'm pretty sure that Hasbro feels that sales are down, and that they are determined that sales better increase and that leaks are "detrimental" to the game. They don't want people to see stuff like One with Nothing until AFTER they sell the cards. They'd rather Wizards carefully show the seven decent cards in the set like Helix so we can go "Holy crap, that set is broken!"
This is pretty stupid, in my opinion. I also think this has a lot to do with why there have been so many seemingly random employee shifts lately. People before Christmas going "Wait till we get back after the holidays, folks! We have a lot of new plans and this column is going to be so much better!" and then suddenly the column is gone, with someone new going "We decided a long time ago that the column sucked. We are replacing it with the brand new return of this terrible column right here that you never read anyway. This has been planned the entire time. Honest." While others randomly find themselves in a promotion once every two months (it seems). Amazingly, those people are the most outspoken AGAINST any form of leaks and completely supportive of "Why terrible garbage cards HAVE to exist".
Anything else from the land of incoherent conspiracies that you'd like to share?
Quote from dragon »
Wow, this is getting absolutley ridiculous. Wizards really needs Business 101, they're pissing off tons of fans. I guess the playtest cards hit a nerve.
Do you actually know anything about Business 101? Honestly? Or are you just spouting platitudes based on a knee-jerk emotional reaction?
Quote from Magic Mage »
Just a hunch, though. Could be a grudge or a vendetta to take MTGSalvation down forever.
This is, bar none, one of the funniest (and at the same time saddest) things I have ever read. I'd suggest you look up a career in comedy, but since this was so obviously unintentioanlly funny I doubt you'd have any real success.
Quote from Deathstrike5000 »
I would just like to say that if posting confedential information was illegal than there would not be any tabloids and also that it is distinctly possible that R.E. could be considered a member of the press so therefore be protected by the first ammendment of the constitution
I take back what I previously said. This is one of the funniest things I have ever read.
At least, it would be if it weren't so damned pathetic.
Quote from Zigathon »
Seriously though, this is a bad thing for the community. Regardless on what side of the fence you're on, you should at least be smart enough to understand that.
This community, not the community. There is a difference.
Quote from tank »
Wow,people think they are powerless dont they?
Your not, if you want to make a statement about what wotc or hasbro is doing and dont agree with it dont buy magic.
It will hurt hasbro.
Anything that effects the bottom line hurts them.
Oh sure its to late for guildpact,but the other sets haveint been released yet.
And as far as hurting stores that you frequent,yes it will hurt them to the extent they sell magic.
But how many stores do you know sell just magic?
Now adays stores have to sell comics,vs games,yugo,whatever..
But they will adapt,if sales of magic go down the sales of other games might go up like vs games.
Also this will take time, dont expect wotc or hasbro to respond right away,but no one said such a thing is easy.
And one more thing,Hasbro WILL read any pettion you send them,they just might now respond to it.
Until or if the boycott affects them.
And once again, the uneducated and ignorant speak. In today's economy no local store (even a diversified store) can afford to lose the revenue that Magic brings through the doors. They lose magic sales, and most of them don't last long.
Disclaimer 1: I'm not a lawyer...but I play one on television.
Disclaimer 2: I only made it through the first 120 or so posts. I didn't have the willpower to push on.
Disclaimer 3: Jesus wept.
Do you really believe that the first rule of business really is "keep your customers happy," honestly?
The first rule of business is "protect your shareholder's value." Keep your customer happy is a rule of customer service, at best. Failure to act in a manner that protects their copyrights is tanamount to failing to protect shareholder value.
Guess what Spanky? This is the real world and out here in the real world we like to engage in something called "life."
WotC and Hasbro have a moral duty and ethical obligation to protect their intelectual property. Failure to understand that obligation only proves that you live in a fantasy land where "Do as though will" is the whole of the law.
Grow up. Figure out the real world. Trust me, life's a lot better when you do.
This guy is bright, he understand obligation, rules, and consequences.
Pay attention to him.
Actuall, don't pay attention to him (he wouldn't want that as it could be construed as legal advice) instead pay attention to what he said, what he didn't say, and how he said it.
Why is that exactly?
R_E announced his disregard for the law when he began posting stolen Intelectual Property. Wizards has made it very clear over the years what their policy on this matter is. If R_E continued to ignore that policy and he gets slapped with a lawsuuit, it's his own damned fault. WotC isn't being mean, they're actually following their only legal recourse.
Wow. You still haven't learned a damned thing, have you?
Says the man who has been posting illicitly garnered information for the last four years. No, your actions have been totally reasonable and WotC is just a bad corporation picking on a little guy.
Your protestations of innocence ring somewhat hollow here.
WotC is the violated party, and your actions in regards to WotC have been less than legal, moral, or ethical. They have no obligation to be nice and polite to you when you have failed to act in kind.
This is a reasoned and intelligent post.
Good job.
If you yahoos decide to do something like boycott Wot over this, you only hurt your local card shops. Even with 9k registered members, you're barely a blip on WotC's p/l statements.
Anything else from the land of incoherent conspiracies that you'd like to share?
Do you actually know anything about Business 101? Honestly? Or are you just spouting platitudes based on a knee-jerl emotional reaction?
This is, bar none, one of the funniest (and at the same time saddest) things I have ever read. I'd suggest you look up a career in comedy, but since this was so obviously unintentioanlly funny I doubt you'd have any real success.
I take back what I previously said. This is one of the funniest things I have ever read.
At least, it would be if it weren't so damned pathetic.
This community, not the community. There is a difference.
And once again, the uneducated and ignorant speak. In today's economy no local store (even a diversified store) can afford to lose the revenue that Magic brings through the doors. They lose magic sales, and most of them don't last long.
The purpose of a boycott is many,and I still belive that if people wish to show their displeasure of the way wotc has handeled this situation then they should boycott.
Yes it will hurt the stores,but my point was no store is totaly dependent on magic.
By the way ,trying to insult people doesnt make your opinon right,justs makes you look pathetic.
Please try to keep the discussion civil. I know you are an outspoken guy Dantes and while the points you raise have merit, please raise them in a more civil way. There's no need for insults.
I apologize if I am excessive, but sometimes inflammatory language does serve a purpose. It catches people's attention, and (let's be perfectly honest here) sometimes you'll run across a post where there is no logical recourse other than to heap scorn.
That said, I'll quiet down a little.
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Good chance you could get a few more than that if the site it set-up correctly and the owners of MTG sites are willing to help.
Why? Because the vast community doesn't care about this. You can't mobolize against WotC. You won't get 10,000 signatures. You won't even get 5,000. The new card face petition stalled out at around 5700 signatures.
I actually doubt that you'll get 2,000 signatures.
I'm pretty sure that RE knew that his sources were violating NDAs. After all, why would they want to remain anonomys? To avoid prosecution. RE has been complecent in those peoples crimes.
This is not WotC picking on the little guy. This is WotC taking a man to court who has not only facilitated the public release of their trade secrets and private information, but also someone who has profited from doing so. Rancored_Elf is a pirate. He's not some altruistic Robin Hood giving the people what they want from the big bad evil empire. He is complecent to the stealing of WotC's secrets. And WotC is well within their moral, ethical and legal rights to make him stop. In any way which is legal.
Did the new card face get protests in Europe? O_o
Statute of Limitations probably. RE's been doing this for nearly 5 years now, which is the statute of limitations on this sort of violation.
Considering the fact that there are European members on these boards, I'd say yes. But here's the thing, gauge people's reactions to this by the amount of rancor and flaming on the internet boards. The amount of anger at this is about 1/10th of what it was for the new card face. And if that blew over, so will this. The reason it isn't blowing over on this website is that this website was formed by Rancored_Elf worshipers who are convinced that he can do no wrong.
Please don't double post, and watch that you don't troll, thanks.
quoted for truthery.
A far more pressing problem for wizards is if this 4 expansions per year trend continues. it will drive the cost of playing t2 up alot and more than likely drive many players away.
No, no it won't. It will simply mean there will be 4 expansions per year to buy singles from instead of 3. You still will only need 75 cards per deck and sideboard. I can't imagine that a 4th set in Type 2 will increase the average price of singles.
Uhh, assumptions mean nothing in a trial. Either you have solid facts [R_E was told by his sources how the cards were illegally obtained] or you have no case. You cannot go to a trial and start claiming that any reasonably intelligent person would assume that the cards were illegally obtained. If that was Wizards only argument, they would lose.
It won't. Just like Unhinged, this is one of those "gimmicks" to get new players into, and old players back into, the game.
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I don't think R_E was profiting off of this. HE wasn't like say going to one of the sites and making it a premium thing where you have to pay. He was giving us the information for free. This guy isn't necissarly little but I do think they are picking on him too much. This is a sad, sad, day and this should have never happend. From what I heared about other cases of peole releasing info early on products that they could sue him a find him guilty even if he wasnt't stealing the info but getting for other people in the company. That might not be right but hey it could happen. We all know as far back when they had pokemon remeber how they shorted the product in the sense they had the product sold at GameKeepeer stores and they made it hard for the local card store to actually get the product but this was befoere they were bought out by Hasbro. WOTC isn't a bad empire its owned by Hasbro. I could unerstand your evil empire since they own Parker Brothers, Milton Bradely and Wizards so they basically have a huge share in industry of board games and other card games. The evil empire isn't even Hasbro. Its the one that makes Barbie Dolls, Bratz and all those Hot Wheels and Matchbox cars.
see, the SEASON is just as long as it used to be, it's just the card pool gets deeper. You'll still be spending $80 or so to build a deck (significantly less if you trade effectively), but you'll just be dipping into more sets to get the cards. In fact, I can see this causing a spike in sales...in my area, it's not unusual to have people draft every week, or every couple weeks...this slows down a lot when there haven't been any new sets in a while. With Coldsnap, I could see people being a lot more enthusiastic about coming to FNM in the dead time.
Please stay on-topic.
Hasbro's lawyers probably have more evidence against R_E or else they wouldnt file a lawsuit yet. I am not saying that Hasbro based its lawsuit on just that. I dont even think its possible that the could have sued based only on the fact that R_E knew what he was doing is wrong.
first, R_E does profit. MTGS has advertisements here. IF more people come to see the spoilers, more people will be exposed to the ads. Plus R_E has his own website that sells cards. More people who know him, will probably buy off his website. Spoilers are a great way to attract people here.
second, I dont understand why you say Hasbro is evil. I do not think anyone here thinks that. Just that the Lawsuit was uncalled for.
I am not at all convinced that the 4 expansions a year will continue, If it does then I think it will be along the lines of the normal 3 serious expansions with one more silly type of set. Personally I think they should cut back to 2 sets per year. Even 3 seems like too much. I now have to get set up with Guildpact when I feel as though im not even done getting comfy with Ravnica and even Kamigawa block still feels fresh.
It doesn't matter if Rancored_Elf got the information legally or illegally. If he distributes it without WotC's approval, he is subject to the laws of copyright protection and trade secret protection.
There is no instance where a virtual hemorhage of info would lose the company money. Limited magic is fun, pre-releases are fun and a good deal for the money generally speaking. In the standard format, there are always cards that will be needed for competitive decks regardless of how much a set subjectively sucks over all.
There are usually enough desirable cards in a set to purchase boxes rather than pay for secondary market cards which are available thanks to middlemen purchasing many cases. The last few sets I have made my money back on 2 boxes and retained enough chase rares and uncommons (not to mention a playset of commons) to keep my collection fresh and up to date.
In summary, leaks obviously got out of hand (hence the suit) but I guarantee you a constant flow of leakage was always intended from the first ones we ever saw.
I think you're jumping the gun on whether this is indeed the legal description of trade secrets or copyright infringement. Wizards has no competitor to steal secrets.
I'm just guessing here, but it's most likely because some of the rumors R_E's been posting (a mere fraction at this point) detailed sets that weren't due to come out for roughly 8 or 9 months. Considering most spoiler info doesn't come out for a given set until maybe 2-3 months before, that is a huge lead time, and points at some more serious, higher-up folks passing along information, instead of mere playtesters ducking around an NDA.
In other words, it indicated that the leaks, whoever they may be, were getting more serious with the info being passed along, and this pissed someone off. I'd imagine when this blows over, if R_E is still doing the rumor-gathering, things will be very different here.
And honestly, given the amount of time it takes between R_E spoiling a card, and people here deciding whether it is good or bad, the faster a set is spoiled, the sooner people simply decide to buy their stuff via the secondary market instead of buying packs directly, which does hurt Wizards' sales.
Oh, and online petitions are nearly useless and not particularly usable legally, since there's hardly any way to legitimately prove a specific person actually "signed" it, especially since a lot of people signing online petitions don't use their real names.
Random_Moniker: It may not be easy to prove that R_E knew his sources were under an NDA, but it could be easy for Wizards to prove that anyone who has direct access to cards or card info before the product was released was under an NDA, especially the earlier the card popped up in the public domain. Magazine preview cards might not count, but anything that wasn't previewed that way could.
He is completely right, we should have already started something VERY SIMILAR. I will study for the rest of my calculus exam, do my normal day to day stuff, and hopefully later tonight I will recieve one or two PM's if not I will PM some people based on what they have written here to help me start one of these up. There is no harm in trying, the petition is free, and your membership and the information we have recieved and appreciated from R_E has been free.
THIS IS THE LEAST WE CAN DO.
We take 30 seconds of our time to put our full name and email address down.
The Goal of this IMO would be to drop the charges (if he still is being charged) or to ask Wizards directly that 1 month before the new set is released on to the shelves, Wizards puts up the spoiler themselves. So that this whole "she-bang" isn't a COMPLETE flop. R_E did a huge favor for US for years if you support him or not. He's done it. The least we can do is show Hasbro that we like magic, but we liked what R_E was doing as well.
I will help formalize and spread out the petition. I need help though. If you want to help PM me.
That's the most ridiculous analogy I've ever read. Comparing what Hasbro is doing to rape is ludicrous.
Disclaimer 2: I only made it through the first 120 or so posts. I didn't have the willpower to push on.
Disclaimer 3: Jesus wept.
Do you really believe that the first rule of business really is "keep your customers happy," honestly?
The first rule of business is "protect your shareholder's value." Keep your customer happy is a rule of customer service, at best. Failure to act in a manner that protects their copyrights is tanamount to failing to protect shareholder value.
Guess what Spanky? This is the real world and out here in the real world we like to engage in something called "life."
WotC and Hasbro have a moral duty and ethical obligation to protect their intelectual property. Failure to understand that obligation only proves that you live in a fantasy land where "Do as though will" is the whole of the law.
Grow up. Figure out the real world. Trust me, life's a lot better when you do.
This guy is bright, he understands obligation, rules, and consequences.
Pay attention to him.
Actuall, don't pay attention to him (he wouldn't want that as it could be construed as legal advice) instead pay attention to what he said, what he didn't say, and how he said it.
Why is that exactly?
R_E announced his disregard for the law when he began posting stolen Intelectual Property. Wizards has made it very clear over the years what their policy on this matter is. If R_E continued to ignore that policy and he gets slapped with a lawsuit, it's his own damned fault. WotC isn't being mean, they're actually following their only legal recourse.
Wow. You still haven't learned a damned thing, have you?
Says the man who has been posting illicitly garnered information for the last four years. No, your actions have been totally reasonable and WotC is just a bad corporation picking on a little guy.
Your protestations of innocence ring somewhat hollow here.
WotC is the violated party, and your actions in regards to WotC have been less than legal, moral, or ethical. They have no obligation to be nice and polite to you when you have failed to act in kind.
This is a reasoned and intelligent post.
Good job.
If you yahoos decide to do something like boycott Wot over this, you only hurt your local card shops. Even with 9k registered members, you're barely a blip on WotC's p/l statements.
Anything else from the land of incoherent conspiracies that you'd like to share?
Do you actually know anything about Business 101? Honestly? Or are you just spouting platitudes based on a knee-jerk emotional reaction?
This is, bar none, one of the funniest (and at the same time saddest) things I have ever read. I'd suggest you look up a career in comedy, but since this was so obviously unintentioanlly funny I doubt you'd have any real success.
I take back what I previously said. This is one of the funniest things I have ever read.
At least, it would be if it weren't so damned pathetic.
This community, not the community. There is a difference.
And once again, the uneducated and ignorant speak. In today's economy no local store (even a diversified store) can afford to lose the revenue that Magic brings through the doors. They lose magic sales, and most of them don't last long.
The purpose of a boycott is many,and I still belive that if people wish to show their displeasure of the way wotc has handeled this situation then they should boycott.
Yes it will hurt the stores,but my point was no store is totaly dependent on magic.
By the way ,trying to insult people doesnt make your opinon right,justs makes you look pathetic.
I apologize if I am excessive, but sometimes inflammatory language does serve a purpose. It catches people's attention, and (let's be perfectly honest here) sometimes you'll run across a post where there is no logical recourse other than to heap scorn.
That said, I'll quiet down a little.