Thing is, RE is under no NDA and if the people providing said info are NOT telling him they ARE under NDA, he can not possible be held responsible for the information being "illegal" as he was never informed of it being such before it was given to him.
but was it? is that the exact scenario? Besides... not knowing you commited a crime does not make you not responsible. I assume R_E knew all the troubles he would get into when he posted the cards.
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but was it? is that the exact scenario? Besides... not knowing you commited a crime does not make you not responsible. I assume R_E knew all the troubles he would get into when he posted the cards.
One can hardly claim that RE was aware he was committing a crime if he is not under the impression a source is breaking a legally binding contract.
For all RE knows, someone could be giving him a card they made up in 30 seconds. Unless they mention an NDA or some other proof that they got a real card, RE can only make assumptions and post his assumptions.
Thing is, RE is under no NDA and if the people providing said info are NOT telling him they ARE under NDA, he can not possible be held responsible for the information being "illegal" as he was never informed of it being such before it was given to him.
This is completely possible if we choose to believe R_E is an absolute moron. I don't choose to believe that. There's a very finite number of sources that could possibly give out legitimate info, and most of those would naturally fall under an NDA as they'd be directly connected to or controlled by Wizards. R&D, playtesting, design, the FFL.
Then there'd be the printing companies, which would likely have their own regulations on privacy, no doubt part of any contract they have with Wizards.
The least likely place to have any sort of NDA would be the independent sources that always show up towards the end of a spoiler, who manage to crack multiple packs or even a whole box to reveal what they find, and they don't even go through R_E for the most part. They didn't this time, if I recall correctly.
Where exactly does R_E think his legitimate, trusted sources are getting their info that they wouldn't be subject to some form of an NDA? When someone gives him consistently correct info on set after set, the thought MUST cross his mind at least somewhat.
Wow, that is pretty rediculous. It's not like we are some business trying to find out their next move, and do something to hinder them in the future. Almost everyone on this site is going to be a customer and buy the product, so I see no harm in the full spoiler being released a few days before the pre-release. These are their customers, so I see no reason in screwing the customers.
Screw all this, if Wizards is this upset ABOUT A SET THEY ALREADY HAVE AN OFFICIAL SPOILER ABOUT, we should all boycott and not buy Wizards products. I'm not going to sift through the thread, but has it been mentioned yet that this is about Guildpact being spoilered from foreign sources or while a pre-release was happening? It even mentions Guildpact in specific.
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My Decks:
Artifact-token Destruction
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Sig by [thread=18949]Æther[/thread], go check them out!
Wow, that is pretty rediculous. It's not like we are some business trying to find out their next move, and do something to hinder them in the future. Almost everyone on this site is going to be a customer and buy the product, so I see no harm in the full spoiler being released a few days before the pre-release. These are their customers, so I see no reason in screwing the customers.
it's not rediculous at all. Wizards stands to do nothing but lose out on this practice...it's MUCH better for them to be in control of their information and property.
This is completely possible if we choose to believe R_E is an absolute moron. I don't choose to believe that. There's a very finite number of sources that could possibly give out legitimate info, and most of those would naturally fall under an NDA as they'd be directly connected to or controlled by Wizards. R&D, playtesting, design, the FFL.
Then there'd be the printing companies, which would likely have their own regulations on privacy, no doubt part of any contract they have with Wizards.
The least likely place to have any sort of NDA would be the independent sources that always show up towards the end of a spoiler, who manage to crack multiple packs or even a whole box to reveal what they find, and they don't even go through R_E for the most part. They didn't this time, if I recall correctly.
Where exactly does R_E think his legitimate, trusted sources are getting their info that they wouldn't be subject to some form of an NDA? When someone gives him consistently correct info on set after set, the thought MUST cross his mind at least somewhat.
The possibility can enter his mind, but that by no means gives any sort of PROOF to him.
Assumption that it's likely? Sure. But unless they come out and say "Well, I'm under NDA and gonna give this out anyway" he simply can't be held responsible to KNOW AS A FACT that the source is under NDA.
The possibility can enter his mind, but that by no means gives any sort of PROOF to him.
Assumption that it's likely? Sure. But unless they come out and say "Well, I'm under NDA and gonna give this out anyway" he simply can't be held responsible to KNOW AS A FACT that the source is under NDA.
we can spend all day trying to figure out what happened... but its not going to change anything...
Quote from piroteknix »
Screw all this, if Wizards is this upset ABOUT A SET THEY ALREADY HAVE AN OFFICIAL SPOILER ABOUT, we should all boycott and not buy Wizards products. I'm not going to sift through the thread, but has it been mentioned yet that this is about Guildpact being spoilered from foreign sources or while a pre-release was happening? It even mentions Guildpact in specific.
sigh. Wizards is upset that he shower cards from Snap. I suggest you do sift through this thread.
and once again... boycotting will do nothing. plus i doubt you will actually do it.
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and once again... boycotting will do nothing. plus i doubt you will actually do it.
Please explain this statement. How better to express your disapproval WoTC that no buying their product. In reality this is the only REAL way you can express yourself in a way they truely care about.
Their purpose is to sell their product for money. This is all the game is as far as they are concerned. It is (presumably) the reason they are doing this in the first place (to protect or enhance profits). this is why they print cards people want to buy, and why they have a team of people developing new and interesting cards.
If you don't like something the company does (like printing crappy cards, raising booster prices, or launching overblown law suits at websites that give their products greater visibility), you express your disapproval by not buying their products. If enough customers do this the result is lower or (hopefully) no profits. This forces one of two responses from the company.
1. Do nothing and accept the loss of revenue.
2. Change what the customers don't like (print more balanced cards, drop prices to a more affordable level, be "nicer" or at least create the illusion of being nicer).
Wizards wants to sell boosters. If you continue to buy them, you are passively agreeing with their conduct. You can moan all you like, but until it hits them in the pocket they will not care, why should they?
This is market reality. $ talk far more loudly that emails or moaning to your friends will. It is in fact the only way customers communicate. The only reason companies care about keeping their customers happy is because unhappy customers tend to stop buying. If you keep on buying anyway they can AND WILL easily ignore any amount of moaning.
You don't have to boycott the game, just stop giving your money to Wotc. Buy only the cards you want, from private individuals or shops, don't buy Boosters (especially individual ones) - these generate the most revenue. Net result - less sales/money for Wotc.
Play with friends, unsactioned tournaments, at school/uni or anywhere else that doesn't give Wotc an exterance fee. Only then will they start listening to their customers.
Large organisations will only care what you think and listen to you, if they fear the loss of your business. Otherwise they will do whatever they want.
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I'm old school, about as OLD school as they get. think 4th Edition/Ice Age old school. Unfortunatley in the "Real world" you cant Incinerate your bank manager and sadly now I have joined the ranks of the older population, and my time is taken up by things like reasearching Mortgage Refinance Rates and where to get the best possible mortgage quotes. I have however discovered the joys of Online Forex Trading which at least allows me to keep the bills in check!
I've been playing MTG for 11 years and looking at Rumor mills (lurking more accuratly) for at least 2 - 3 years now. Personally I think that they have a curve ball in store with the increased size third set of this block and they want to keep us totally in the dark on this one. The unfortunate problem with this is that they could be alienating a large section of their communitiy in the process...
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MTG Junky... First packs being a starter of each 4th Edition and Ice Age. Good Grief, I've been playing since 1995? Where does the time go!
Quote from Xcric »
this is mtgs, where occam's razor is so blunt it can't cut jello any more.
This is completely possible if we choose to believe R_E is an absolute moron. I don't choose to believe that. There's a very finite number of sources that could possibly give out legitimate info, and most of those would naturally fall under an NDA as they'd be directly connected to or controlled by Wizards. R&D, playtesting, design, the FFL.
Then there'd be the printing companies, which would likely have their own regulations on privacy, no doubt part of any contract they have with Wizards.
The least likely place to have any sort of NDA would be the independent sources that always show up towards the end of a spoiler, who manage to crack multiple packs or even a whole box to reveal what they find, and they don't even go through R_E for the most part. They didn't this time, if I recall correctly.
Where exactly does R_E think his legitimate, trusted sources are getting their info that they wouldn't be subject to some form of an NDA? When someone gives him consistently correct info on set after set, the thought MUST cross his mind at least somewhat.
But that is the best defense R_E has going for him. Unless a source specifically admitted that the cards were illegally obtained ("I just broke my NDA to send you these", "Dude, I totally robbed these from a printing sheet"), then R_E has no knowledge of the background of the card, Im sure he gets twice as many fake cards as real cards. He just fowards the info that seems legitimate to him, but without any concrete information on how the cards were obtained, he has done nothing illegal, especially the way the playtest cards were obtained.
That said, I think Wizards has just gotten out of hand with this whole situation. Keep your employees under wraps and make printers have better security and well have less leaks.
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The above post gets my approval-:spock:
Your Ad Here!
(no seriously, PM me with something good and Ill put it here)
The thing you don't realize is, hasbro doesn’t don't care if a bunch of piss ants from some God forsaken site stop buying there product. You are nobody’s, you lack numbers to boot.
I don't feel like nobody. I think that thousands of registered members count as the "numbers to boot" you referenced.
The only reasonable boycott plan I could imagine having any "impact" ( and I use the term very loosely) is if a large group of people actually decided to convert to the secondary market only and play classic/ legacy. Sure it's expensive, but you can boycott Hasbro and keep playing without really curing your cardboard crack problem. It's not much, but if the boycotters mean what they say.......run with it.
But that is the best defense R_E has going for him. Unless a source specifically admitted that the cards were illegally obtained ("I just broke my NDA to send you these", "Dude, I totally robbed these from a printing sheet"), then R_E has no knowledge of the background of the card, Im sure he gets twice as many fake cards as real cards. He just fowards the info that seems legitimate to him, but without any concrete information on how the cards were obtained, he has done nothing illegal, especially the way the playtest cards were obtained.
That said, I think Wizards has just gotten out of hand with this whole situation. Keep your employees under wraps and make printers have better security and well have less leaks.
The fact is, either R_E knew that it was illegal. Or if he didn't, he could have assumed that it was. Yet he posted them anyway.
Quote from Username »
I don't feel like nobody. I think that thousands of registered members count as the "numbers to boot" you referenced.
Quote from phyrexian »
Sure. all of those things work. but now try to get millions of Magic fans to boycott and it will work. the fact is, I do not think that a few hundred people boycotting will make a difference.
read please
You continue repeating yourself over and over and over, which is approaching spam. Please don't post in this thread again unless you've got something new to say. -Gob
Still, thousands can inspire millions. You forget: forumgoers have non-forumgoer friends. I have 2 Magic-playing friends who aren't on any forums. One has already decided to boycott MTG, and I'm going to tell the other one (who reads spoilers) about this situation. Even 10,000 people boycotting could cause WotC to back off a bit. They aren't unmovable. They depend on us, remember!
The only reasonable boycott plan I could imagine having any "impact" ( and I use the term very loosely) is if a large group of people actually decided to convert to the secondary market only and play classic/ legacy. Sure it's expensive, but you can boycott Hasbro and keep playing without really curing your cardboard crack problem. It's not much, but if the boycotters mean what they say.......run with it.
Interesting, but how would you get enough people to do this? It's not like WotC will even notice a Salvation-load of people not buying cardboard crack anymore.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
goddammit do i have to repeat myself? there is a non disclosure agreement. It says that you cant tell these cards to anyone.
[/size]
Given that I've pointed out the same thing, it would appear some people are posting without reading the entire thread, asking questions that have already been answered. *shrug* Much like most longer discussion threads on most forums.
Quote from ButteBlues18 »
One can hardly claim that RE was aware he was committing a crime if he is not under the impression a source is breaking a legally binding contract.
For all RE knows, someone could be giving him a card they made up in 30 seconds. Unless they mention an NDA or some other proof that they got a real card, RE can only make assumptions and post his assumptions.
I've covered this point already. RE would have to argue that he had reason to believe the source of the information had acquired it via legal channels and was legally allowed to disseminate this information.
Given that the cards weren't available to the public, he'd have an incredibly hard time doing that.
Quote from Random_Moniker_Redux »
But that is the best defense R_E has going for him. Unless a source specifically admitted that the cards were illegally obtained ("I just broke my NDA to send you these", "Dude, I totally robbed these from a printing sheet"), then R_E has no knowledge of the background of the card, Im sure he gets twice as many fake cards as real cards. He just fowards the info that seems legitimate to him, but without any concrete information on how the cards were obtained, he has done nothing illegal, especially the way the playtest cards were obtained.
That said, I think Wizards has just gotten out of hand with this whole situation. Keep your employees under wraps and make printers have better security and well have less leaks.
Wrong; all they have to do is prove there is no way "any reasonable person" would believe the information had come from a legal source, and RE's only defense along those lines would be to prove that there is some reason for him not to be considered "any reasonable person" (e.g. by way of insanity or low intelligence, which I seriously doubt is the case).
I've covered this point already. RE would have to argue that he had reason to believe the source of the information had acquired it via legal channels and was legally allowed to disseminate this information.
Given how long WotC has tolerated leaks to the forums, could it be argued that RE had reason to believe that WotC had decided to embrace the Rumor Mill culture and include it in their preview plans? After all, rumors have been posted online for the last ten years or so and they've never taken any action to stop them before now.
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Hey all... I'm retired, not dead. Check out what I'm doing these days (and beg me to come back if you want):
I've covered this point already. RE would have to argue that he had reason to believe the source of the information had acquired it via legal channels and was legally allowed to disseminate this information.
Given that the cards weren't available to the public, he'd have an incredibly hard time doing that.
Wrong; all they have to do is prove there is no way "any reasonable person" would believe the information had come from a legal source, and RE's only defense along those lines would be to prove that there is some reason for him not to be considered "any reasonable person" (e.g. by way of insanity or low intelligence, which I seriously doubt is the case).
Hmm, this is an interesting point. R_E is considered innocent until proven guilty, yes? He is not required to authenticate the rumors he passes on, nor is he required to find out how the source obtained the information they are passing on, or whether they are under a NDA or not.
Surely the burden of proof lies with the accusor, they must prove that R_E knew that the source was bound by and NDA and were breaching it by giving him rumors - not the other way around. Don't forget that most of the rumors that R_E says are likely true are given credibility by the fact that they are reported to him by a number of sources. It seems reasonable to me (and I am - generally - a reasonable person)that if 3 or 4 seperate unrelated people all told that they thought a particular card was going to appear, then that would be grounds enough to give it credit. is this not a defensible argument?
I still say boycott. Hit 'em in the pocket. Play at local stores or any other non sanctioned place you can. R_E is taking a hit for eacha nd every one of us that visits this site to see what's coming up in the next set. Back him up any way you can - he deserves it and so does Hannes.
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I'm old school, about as OLD school as they get. think 4th Edition/Ice Age old school. Unfortunatley in the "Real world" you cant Incinerate your bank manager and sadly now I have joined the ranks of the older population, and my time is taken up by things like reasearching Mortgage Refinance Rates and where to get the best possible mortgage quotes. I have however discovered the joys of Online Forex Trading which at least allows me to keep the bills in check!
here here, we have ways to fight this we wnat our rumors we wnat magic our way hell, i was even getting a magic the gathering tat on my shoulder i love this game so much. then they go and do this.....
I've said it many times... let's get a petition started.
Agreed. I've heard of numerous sites that offer some sort of service like this for free. Can anyone mention an address? We can get a couple mods here to hopefully start it up, and lets sign. Im sure if we hit maybe 10,000 something would be done on behalf of Hasbro.
Agreed. I've heard of numerous sites that offer some sort of service like this for free. Can anyone mention an address? We can get a couple mods here to hopefully start it up, and lets sign. Im sure if we hit maybe 10,000 something would be done on behalf of Hasbro.
Also, I wonder, why now? I mean, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff too much lately, but R_E and others have been doing rumors for what seems like ages to me, I wonder why WotC decided to strike now. *shrug* It's not like they just learned about rumor mills or something...
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Agreed. I've heard of numerous sites that offer some sort of service like this for free. Can anyone mention an address? We can get a couple mods here to hopefully start it up, and lets sign. Im sure if we hit maybe 10,000 something would be done on behalf of Hasbro.
Do you really think that 10,000 people's name on a petition will have any effect on Hasbro's business decisions?
When you have 10-15 million customers worldwide that buy your product, you don't even flinch at 10,000 people complaining about something. They lose and gain that many customers in a week.
I'd be willing to bet that 10x that many people complained about the new card faces. Have you seen the old card faces come back into use yet?
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but was it? is that the exact scenario? Besides... not knowing you commited a crime does not make you not responsible. I assume R_E knew all the troubles he would get into when he posted the cards.
One can hardly claim that RE was aware he was committing a crime if he is not under the impression a source is breaking a legally binding contract.
For all RE knows, someone could be giving him a card they made up in 30 seconds. Unless they mention an NDA or some other proof that they got a real card, RE can only make assumptions and post his assumptions.
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This is completely possible if we choose to believe R_E is an absolute moron. I don't choose to believe that. There's a very finite number of sources that could possibly give out legitimate info, and most of those would naturally fall under an NDA as they'd be directly connected to or controlled by Wizards. R&D, playtesting, design, the FFL.
Then there'd be the printing companies, which would likely have their own regulations on privacy, no doubt part of any contract they have with Wizards.
The least likely place to have any sort of NDA would be the independent sources that always show up towards the end of a spoiler, who manage to crack multiple packs or even a whole box to reveal what they find, and they don't even go through R_E for the most part. They didn't this time, if I recall correctly.
Where exactly does R_E think his legitimate, trusted sources are getting their info that they wouldn't be subject to some form of an NDA? When someone gives him consistently correct info on set after set, the thought MUST cross his mind at least somewhat.
Artifact-token Destruction
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Sig by [thread=18949]Æther[/thread], go check them out!
it's not rediculous at all. Wizards stands to do nothing but lose out on this practice...it's MUCH better for them to be in control of their information and property.
The possibility can enter his mind, but that by no means gives any sort of PROOF to him.
Assumption that it's likely? Sure. But unless they come out and say "Well, I'm under NDA and gonna give this out anyway" he simply can't be held responsible to KNOW AS A FACT that the source is under NDA.
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we can spend all day trying to figure out what happened... but its not going to change anything...
sigh. Wizards is upset that he shower cards from Snap. I suggest you do sift through this thread.
and once again... boycotting will do nothing. plus i doubt you will actually do it.
Please explain this statement. How better to express your disapproval WoTC that no buying their product. In reality this is the only REAL way you can express yourself in a way they truely care about.
Their purpose is to sell their product for money. This is all the game is as far as they are concerned. It is (presumably) the reason they are doing this in the first place (to protect or enhance profits). this is why they print cards people want to buy, and why they have a team of people developing new and interesting cards.
If you don't like something the company does (like printing crappy cards, raising booster prices, or launching overblown law suits at websites that give their products greater visibility), you express your disapproval by not buying their products. If enough customers do this the result is lower or (hopefully) no profits. This forces one of two responses from the company.
1. Do nothing and accept the loss of revenue.
2. Change what the customers don't like (print more balanced cards, drop prices to a more affordable level, be "nicer" or at least create the illusion of being nicer).
Wizards wants to sell boosters. If you continue to buy them, you are passively agreeing with their conduct. You can moan all you like, but until it hits them in the pocket they will not care, why should they?
This is market reality. $ talk far more loudly that emails or moaning to your friends will. It is in fact the only way customers communicate. The only reason companies care about keeping their customers happy is because unhappy customers tend to stop buying. If you keep on buying anyway they can AND WILL easily ignore any amount of moaning.
You don't have to boycott the game, just stop giving your money to Wotc. Buy only the cards you want, from private individuals or shops, don't buy Boosters (especially individual ones) - these generate the most revenue. Net result - less sales/money for Wotc.
Play with friends, unsactioned tournaments, at school/uni or anywhere else that doesn't give Wotc an exterance fee. Only then will they start listening to their customers.
Large organisations will only care what you think and listen to you, if they fear the loss of your business. Otherwise they will do whatever they want.
But that is the best defense R_E has going for him. Unless a source specifically admitted that the cards were illegally obtained ("I just broke my NDA to send you these", "Dude, I totally robbed these from a printing sheet"), then R_E has no knowledge of the background of the card, Im sure he gets twice as many fake cards as real cards. He just fowards the info that seems legitimate to him, but without any concrete information on how the cards were obtained, he has done nothing illegal, especially the way the playtest cards were obtained.
That said, I think Wizards has just gotten out of hand with this whole situation. Keep your employees under wraps and make printers have better security and well have less leaks.
I don't feel like nobody. I think that thousands of registered members count as the "numbers to boot" you referenced.
read please
The fact is, either R_E knew that it was illegal. Or if he didn't, he could have assumed that it was. Yet he posted them anyway.
You continue repeating yourself over and over and over, which is approaching spam. Please don't post in this thread again unless you've got something new to say. -Gob
Interesting, but how would you get enough people to do this? It's not like WotC will even notice a Salvation-load of people not buying cardboard crack anymore.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Given that I've pointed out the same thing, it would appear some people are posting without reading the entire thread, asking questions that have already been answered. *shrug* Much like most longer discussion threads on most forums.
I've covered this point already. RE would have to argue that he had reason to believe the source of the information had acquired it via legal channels and was legally allowed to disseminate this information.
Given that the cards weren't available to the public, he'd have an incredibly hard time doing that.
Wrong; all they have to do is prove there is no way "any reasonable person" would believe the information had come from a legal source, and RE's only defense along those lines would be to prove that there is some reason for him not to be considered "any reasonable person" (e.g. by way of insanity or low intelligence, which I seriously doubt is the case).
Given how long WotC has tolerated leaks to the forums, could it be argued that RE had reason to believe that WotC had decided to embrace the Rumor Mill culture and include it in their preview plans? After all, rumors have been posted online for the last ten years or so and they've never taken any action to stop them before now.
https://twitch.tv/annorax10 (classic retro speedruns & occasional MTGO/MTGA screwaround streams)
https://twitch.tv/SwiftorCasino (yes, my team and I run live dealer games for the baldman using his channel points as chips)
Hmm, this is an interesting point. R_E is considered innocent until proven guilty, yes? He is not required to authenticate the rumors he passes on, nor is he required to find out how the source obtained the information they are passing on, or whether they are under a NDA or not.
Surely the burden of proof lies with the accusor, they must prove that R_E knew that the source was bound by and NDA and were breaching it by giving him rumors - not the other way around. Don't forget that most of the rumors that R_E says are likely true are given credibility by the fact that they are reported to him by a number of sources. It seems reasonable to me (and I am - generally - a reasonable person)that if 3 or 4 seperate unrelated people all told that they thought a particular card was going to appear, then that would be grounds enough to give it credit. is this not a defensible argument?
I still say boycott. Hit 'em in the pocket. Play at local stores or any other non sanctioned place you can. R_E is taking a hit for eacha nd every one of us that visits this site to see what's coming up in the next set. Back him up any way you can - he deserves it and so does Hannes.
Agreed. I've heard of numerous sites that offer some sort of service like this for free. Can anyone mention an address? We can get a couple mods here to hopefully start it up, and lets sign. Im sure if we hit maybe 10,000 something would be done on behalf of Hasbro.
A petition site? Like this?
http://www.petitiononline.com/
Also, I wonder, why now? I mean, I haven't been keeping up with this stuff too much lately, but R_E and others have been doing rumors for what seems like ages to me, I wonder why WotC decided to strike now. *shrug* It's not like they just learned about rumor mills or something...
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[thread=43661][/thread]
Do you really think that 10,000 people's name on a petition will have any effect on Hasbro's business decisions?
When you have 10-15 million customers worldwide that buy your product, you don't even flinch at 10,000 people complaining about something. They lose and gain that many customers in a week.
I'd be willing to bet that 10x that many people complained about the new card faces. Have you seen the old card faces come back into use yet?