I have been sampling a few of the posts here and was so appalled I felt forced to register and make this thread.
It seems the majority of people seem to think that on the Subterranean_Spirit vs. rancored_elf issue, things are black and white. This is not true.
Everybody makes mistakes. This includes Subterranean_Spirit, but it also includes rancored_elf. In my opinion, rancored_elf has acted very immaturely in this situation. Conducting a leave en masse was fine and a very forceful move, and mature people, such as JeffVondruska, ended it there. However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge, and make angry and insultatory comments about and to Subterranean_Spirit. It is obvious that rancored_elf is very hurt about the way he got treated by his higher-ups, and he has some justification for that; however, repeatedly throwing insults at them does not put his argument is good repute.
rancored_elf: I suggest that you stop coming up with excuses and more libelous comments. If your side is so obviously the right one, as you seem to think, objective statements and facts will speak for themselves.
Most other people: I imagine most people here remember DG, the beloved creator of MTGnews. He had very few enemies. Yet he was constantly away whenever things needed to get done, and he constantly said he would be there and wasn’t. This case is similar. However, there is one crucial difference: DG was respected by the whole staff whereas Subterranean_Spirit isn’t. I advise against deciding on your opinion before you hear the evidence, and blindly jumping on bandwagons simply because a respectable character is at its head. You can find a way to make anything Subterranean_Spirit does demonic, but you can do the same for rancored_elf. You are not right; you are simply agree with the large and loudly-voiced group.
rancored_elf is not God. Subterranean_Spirit is not the Devil. Look at things objectively or look foolish.
Very true. However, S_S is not like DG, because DG let the other admins handle things in his absence, whereas Scott has to have total control, and he overreacts about everything. I think we need new management.
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Well, seems like spoiler chains(And with them my old sig) have been broken by The Man.
The Man is a Jackass and apparently he is also a Communist.
GET OUT OF MY HEAD YOU MODS! MY SIG IS NOT FOR EDITING!:mad:
Currently accepting disciples. Inquire within. ORDER THE CAKE DAMNIT!
The difference between DG and SS being, for one, SS' personality is regarded by most to be much less abrasive than DG's. Plus, even though DG wasn't there, things still got done, albeit not as well as they might have had he been around.
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Sing lustily and with good courage.
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
A very valid point, but I've actually come to the position I'm at not because of the initial burst of things that rancored_elf did, but more because of the absolutely ridiculous and sometimes actually funny things S_S is doing.
I started out thinking it was just a disagreement. However, R_E did not claim to be in the right, and he didn't claim S_S is wrong. He originally merely claimed that he hated the management because he considered himself lied to and disrespected, and left. The reason we've got such a black and white view on it, or in my case, #111111 and #EEEEEE, is S_S's absolutely retarded response to the situation. If he had not tried to censor the community, if he had decided to talk it out like a civilized person, he would have found the situation would not have blown up in his face. However, as it stands, he's gone against just about every single thing that any community could ever want. He's banning people without giving a banned tag. He's censoring absolutely everything on his website that might possibly be against him. He's taking spoilers off of MTG Salvation, removing the credits on the posts taking it over to News, and then posting them on the MTGnews spoiler claiming it was his information. I don't know about you, but I recall one of the key things that everyone complained about on MTGnews was other websites stealing the spoiler and posting it on their site.
And before you even consider that S_S MIGHT have gotten the information on his own, consider the fact that the information typos and stuff in the MTG Salvation spoiler exist on his website. For a clerical or intentional reason, Splinter is listed on our spoiler as an instant. This is not true, and we all know it, because it's a reprint. Splinter is a sorcery. If he had gotten the information on his own, he would have looked up the spoiler for Splinter, copied down the oracle text, and pasted it onto the spoiler. However, instead he copied and pasted off of the MTG Salvation rumor mill, and in doing so, kept that error intact.
Basically, in closing, you're correct at a basic level. There is no black and white in the real world. However, S_S has proven without a doubt that he's either incredibly stupid or a complete ********. You can decide which one you want to believe for yourself.
However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge
To be fair, that's not true. Rancored_elf was not the one who posted that information from what I've seen. It was urzaseddatives who posted conversations from the mod lounge, but I suppose that's neither here nor there. I just wanted to straighten that out.
Otherwise, I agree with you that things aren't clearcut black and white, but that doesn't really change much. I don't believe S_S is pure evil, I don't think anyone rational or mature truly does, but he has done a very poor job as an admin. Rancored_elf may have made several comments about his former 'boss', but I never found them to be overly immature. He was still reacting with emotion, especially to S_S' many recent comments about the 'truth of RE's character' and his treatment of RE after New Years.
Subbie may not be a villain and R_Elf may not be innocent and 100% the victim, but I still come down on Rancored_Elf's side of things. Subterrainean Spirit can make as many grandoise claims as he wants, but rancored_elf had my support from the second I read his announcement. I know in my heart that the announcement was biased by rancored's own experiences and anger, but I don't doubt that his account is more truth than not.
And when it comes right down to it, Sub_Spirit hasn't shown me a single thing that makes me want to take his side.
Carpo, give it up. There is no excuse for the things S_S has done, they were not "mistakes" that can be forgiven. Wake up and come to the reality of things, then come join the rest of us. No one ever said it was black and white, quit putting words in our mouths. The facts are there, read them, accept them, and know them. This is really an unnecissary thread. S_S making "mistakes" is a bull**** excuse, to be quite honest. When you make "mistakes" you learn from them, you don't repeat them over, and over, and over for months. But the truth is anyone who can call the things S_S has done "mistakes" has to be pretty damn ignorant. It's pretty clear he's known what he's doing this entire time.
I have been sampling a few of the posts here and was so appalled I felt forced to register and make this thread.
It seems the majority of people seem to think that on the Subterranean_Spirit vs. rancored_elf issue, things are black and white. This is not true.
Everybody makes mistakes. This includes Subterranean_Spirit, but it also includes rancored_elf. In my opinion, rancored_elf has acted very immaturely in this situation. Conducting a leave en masse was fine and a very forceful move, and mature people, such as JeffVondruska, ended it there. However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge, and make angry and insultatory comments about and to Subterranean_Spirit. It is obvious that rancored_elf is very hurt about the way he got treated by his higher-ups, and he has some justification for that; however, repeatedly throwing insults at them does not put his argument is good repute.
rancored_elf: I suggest that you stop coming up with excuses and more libelous comments. If your side is so obviously the right one, as you seem to think, objective statements and facts will speak for themselves.
Most other people: I imagine most people here remember DG, the beloved creator of MTGnews. He had very few enemies. Yet he was constantly away whenever things needed to get done, and he constantly said he would be there and wasn’t. This case is similar. However, there is one crucial difference: DG was respected by the whole staff whereas Subterranean_Spirit isn’t. I advise against deciding on your opinion before you hear the evidence, and blindly jumping on bandwagons simply because a respectable character is at its head. You can find a way to make anything Subterranean_Spirit does demonic, but you can do the same for rancored_elf. You are not right; you are simply agree with the large and loudly-voiced group.
rancored_elf is not God. Subterranean_Spirit is not the Devil. Look at things objectively or look foolish.
I agree. I was actually quite alarmed when I came to this site at seeing the posts that were on here. I admit, the things that S_S has done are not things I agree with, but there's a point where we just have to move on. Some people are just taking it to levels it was never meant to go. There are people who are just mindlessly bashing S_S just because everyone else is doing it, people whom I question were ever part of the MTGNews community in the first place. If we're going to maintain this "one MTGNews community with two URLs" stance, it's going to have to go both ways. You may blame S_S for the divide, and for all I know you could very well be right, but a lot of the things I've seen on this forum will do nothing but perpetuate that divide.
First off, look at my registration date, sir. I was here long before R_E even knew this existed. That said...
Quote from carpo »
However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge, and make angry and insultatory comments about and to Subterranean_Spirit. It is obvious that rancored_elf is very hurt about the way he got treated by his higher-ups, and he has some justification for that; however, repeatedly throwing insults at them does not put his argument is good repute.
If your side is so obviously the right one, as you seem to think, objective statements and facts will speak for themselves.
How can you bash him for posting facts and then tell him that the facts will tell the story?
Most other people: I imagine most people here remember DG, the beloved creator of MTGnews. He had very few enemies. Yet he was constantly away whenever things needed to get done, and he constantly said he would be there and wasn’t. This case is similar. However, there is one crucial difference: DG was respected by the whole staff whereas Subterranean_Spirit isn’t.
You're right, but DG had an excuse AND resigned his position. You see, DG got in a motorcycle accident and managed to do better than Raa, who bought the site in the same condition he is in now, only a year younger. S_S is not respected for the reasons posted here. By storming in without reading anything (which is what it sure as hell looks like you did, despite your claim) you didn't catch that whole aura of S_S not OWNING the site and being an incompetent jackass with a fuse about a micromillimeter long. Respect those who give you respect or you're in a sorry state, so we shoudn't respect S_S.
Personally, I'm kinda shocked how everyone is so appalled that people posted stuff out of the Moderator Forum in the first place? Yes, of course it's a private forum, but that doesn't mean you can say stuff there and not have to account for it.
Whenever I post on the internet, be it on a public forum or a private AIM conversation, I assume that there is the possibility of that message being posted to the public for the entire world to see. After all, there are an incredible amount of ways for a private forum's information to escape, from simple things like a person with access reposting, or someone finding an exploit in the forum code and reading it without access at all.
Hence, I don't see why pasting stuff out of there is such a big deal. If it would embarass you incredibly to see something posted in public under your name, then why are you writing it?
As mikeyG said, I didn't post information from MTGnews's mod lounge. The information that was posted happened to be a couple of posts, one of mine, and one of JeffVondruska's, but it was urzassedatives who revealed them, when he quit. Cateran did post information from the mod lounge (it was one of his own posts).
That said, I support any and all leaks from said mod lounge. If I didn't know that somebody would go through it with a fine tooth comb beforehand and delete/edit/warp the posts contained therein, I'd advocate for somebody to reveal the entire thing to the community. As Mystic implied, conversations held between volunteers and the owner of a website can be deemed "private", but there's nothing wrong with showing those conversations to those they involve, especially after the volunteers no longer "work" for the owner. Especially considering there was never any contract involved. And if there was a contract between owner and volunteers involved, the owner surely violated it multiple times. Sure, he could fire someone who did that, but none of us "work" there any longer.
carpo's claim that I have posted mod lounge information is untrue. His claim that I have made "insultatory" and "libelous" comments to S_S is untrue. As for telling me to stop "making excuses", I can't figure out to what he refers. I haven't made any excuses (for what, anyway?) You ask for facts, but that's all I've given - I don't think you've been following the proceedings, carpo. As for being angry and hurt, you got that part right! I'm quickly getting over it.
And I've never stopped participating in my clan thread, general discussions, or talks in the Forum Control section with other mods on how to improve the site. I've also been working on filling in the partial spoiler.
I'm pretty sure you're simply here to cause more problems. Please don't.
I have been sampling a few of the posts here and was so appalled I felt forced to register and make this thread.
Alright
Quote from Carpo »
It seems the majority of people seem to think that on the Subterranean_Spirit vs. rancored_elf issue, things are black and white. This is not true.
Agreed, most things aren't black and white.
Quote from Carpo »
Everybody makes mistakes. This includes Subterranean_Spirit, but it also includes rancored_elf. In my opinion, rancored_elf has acted very immaturely in this situation. Conducting a leave en masse was fine and a very forceful move, and mature people, such as JeffVondruska, ended it there. However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge, and make angry and insultatory comments about and to Subterranean_Spirit. It is obvious that rancored_elf is very hurt about the way he got treated by his higher-ups, and he has some justification for that; however, repeatedly throwing insults at them does not put his argument is good repute.
I'll have to say I agree both person made mistakes, but I have to argue that it is only by posting the private message are we the mass member understand what is going on from r_e's side. Mean while S_S has not provided us any solid fact. I don't believe r_e conducted a mass leave, it was through other member's choices that they invited many to this site and follows to invite r_e to join, r_e leaving was partly reponsible for the en masse but he was not responsible for conducting it.
Quote from Carpo »
rancored_elf: I suggest that you stop coming up with excuses and more libelous comments. If your side is so obviously the right one, as you seem to think, objective statements and facts will speak for themselves.
I believe the messages that r_e has posted from the private forum warrents as facts?
Quote from Carpo »
Most other people: I imagine most people here remember DG, the beloved creator of MTGnews. He had very few enemies. Yet he was constantly away whenever things needed to get done, and he constantly said he would be there and wasn’t. This case is similar. However, there is one crucial difference: DG was respected by the whole staff whereas Subterranean_Spirit isn’t. I advise against deciding on your opinion before you hear the evidence, and blindly jumping on bandwagons simply because a respectable character is at its head. You can find a way to make anything Subterranean_Spirit does demonic, but you can do the same for rancored_elf. You are not right; you are simply agree with the large and loudly-voiced group.
like you said, people do make mistake. But keep in mind, the staff and the entire forum was under longer absense from S_S than DG, where (under impression from r_e's post) DG was gone shorter, got more things done than S_S during the period where he was recovering from the bike accident.
Quote from Carpo »
rancored_elf is not God. Subterranean_Spirit is not the Devil. Look at things objectively or look foolish.
True, but from the look of things right now, S_S is very close being it unless he can provide some facts.
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The happiness of a man in this life does not consist in the absence but in the mastery of his passions. - Lord Alfred Tennyson
I honestly don't think that anyone here is really looking at this in black and white terms, carpo. I think that I understand what you're seeing, though. I think that the majority of people here have simply accepted the situation, and are not worried as much about "fault" so much as saving the community.
In addition to everything that has been said, above, keep in mind that S_S have decided to respond in a manner that guaranteed alienating people in the community. It's really a shame, to be honest, and I think this is what's burning people up.
I also have my issues with some of the things that have happened, on both "sides" of this. Over the years, I've learned to trust and respect 'Elf, however, but I'm not blind in that. He's human, just like the rest of us. But I respect his choices. When he could no longer feel good about the work he was doing for MTG News, he left. I know how hard that was (still haven't quite brought myself to doing it) - and I think that most of us here understand that, whether we have left MTG News or not.
However, I do not respect the choices S_S has made. They do not - in my opinion - make sense in terms of the business, the community, or even humanity. I have not heard reasons for the decisions he's made, even when explanations have been requested, and this troubles me even more.
It's just sad.
'Elf and the other admins didn't ask everyone to come over here. They just left. People came over here in an attempt to salvage the community.
Well thats your view. I'm not going to dissuade you from it. But you have to understand that nobody signed a non-disclosure agreement (at least to my knowledge) about the Mod Lounge. Not only that, but S_S, while he isn't the devil, he certainly doesn't know s*** about running a community and keeping members there. In fact, he's been alienating people.
-tinker
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It seems the majority of people seem to think that on the Subterranean_Spirit vs. rancored_elf issue, things are black and white. This is not true.
Everybody makes mistakes. This includes Subterranean_Spirit, but it also includes rancored_elf. In my opinion, rancored_elf has acted very immaturely in this situation. Conducting a leave en masse was fine and a very forceful move, and mature people, such as JeffVondruska, ended it there. However, rancored_elf decided to post information from the moderators’ lounge, and make angry and insultatory comments about and to Subterranean_Spirit. It is obvious that rancored_elf is very hurt about the way he got treated by his higher-ups, and he has some justification for that; however, repeatedly throwing insults at them does not put his argument is good repute.
rancored_elf: I suggest that you stop coming up with excuses and more libelous comments. If your side is so obviously the right one, as you seem to think, objective statements and facts will speak for themselves.
Most other people: I imagine most people here remember DG, the beloved creator of MTGnews. He had very few enemies. Yet he was constantly away whenever things needed to get done, and he constantly said he would be there and wasn’t. This case is similar. However, there is one crucial difference: DG was respected by the whole staff whereas Subterranean_Spirit isn’t. I advise against deciding on your opinion before you hear the evidence, and blindly jumping on bandwagons simply because a respectable character is at its head. You can find a way to make anything Subterranean_Spirit does demonic, but you can do the same for rancored_elf. You are not right; you are simply agree with the large and loudly-voiced group.
rancored_elf is not God. Subterranean_Spirit is not the Devil. Look at things objectively or look foolish.
Loonook = Nothing
Nothing > Jesus
Currently accepting disciples. Inquire within.
ORDER THE CAKE DAMNIT!
Be aware of singing as if you were half dead,
or half asleep:
but lift your voice with strength.
Be no more afraid of your voice now,
nor more ashamed of its being heard,
than when you sang the songs of Satan.
I started out thinking it was just a disagreement. However, R_E did not claim to be in the right, and he didn't claim S_S is wrong. He originally merely claimed that he hated the management because he considered himself lied to and disrespected, and left. The reason we've got such a black and white view on it, or in my case, #111111 and #EEEEEE, is S_S's absolutely retarded response to the situation. If he had not tried to censor the community, if he had decided to talk it out like a civilized person, he would have found the situation would not have blown up in his face. However, as it stands, he's gone against just about every single thing that any community could ever want. He's banning people without giving a banned tag. He's censoring absolutely everything on his website that might possibly be against him. He's taking spoilers off of MTG Salvation, removing the credits on the posts taking it over to News, and then posting them on the MTGnews spoiler claiming it was his information. I don't know about you, but I recall one of the key things that everyone complained about on MTGnews was other websites stealing the spoiler and posting it on their site.
And before you even consider that S_S MIGHT have gotten the information on his own, consider the fact that the information typos and stuff in the MTG Salvation spoiler exist on his website. For a clerical or intentional reason, Splinter is listed on our spoiler as an instant. This is not true, and we all know it, because it's a reprint. Splinter is a sorcery. If he had gotten the information on his own, he would have looked up the spoiler for Splinter, copied down the oracle text, and pasted it onto the spoiler. However, instead he copied and pasted off of the MTG Salvation rumor mill, and in doing so, kept that error intact.
Basically, in closing, you're correct at a basic level. There is no black and white in the real world. However, S_S has proven without a doubt that he's either incredibly stupid or a complete ********. You can decide which one you want to believe for yourself.
Edit: Grammatical error.
To be fair, that's not true. Rancored_elf was not the one who posted that information from what I've seen. It was urzaseddatives who posted conversations from the mod lounge, but I suppose that's neither here nor there. I just wanted to straighten that out.
Otherwise, I agree with you that things aren't clearcut black and white, but that doesn't really change much. I don't believe S_S is pure evil, I don't think anyone rational or mature truly does, but he has done a very poor job as an admin. Rancored_elf may have made several comments about his former 'boss', but I never found them to be overly immature. He was still reacting with emotion, especially to S_S' many recent comments about the 'truth of RE's character' and his treatment of RE after New Years.
Subbie may not be a villain and R_Elf may not be innocent and 100% the victim, but I still come down on Rancored_Elf's side of things. Subterrainean Spirit can make as many grandoise claims as he wants, but rancored_elf had my support from the second I read his announcement. I know in my heart that the announcement was biased by rancored's own experiences and anger, but I don't doubt that his account is more truth than not.
And when it comes right down to it, Sub_Spirit hasn't shown me a single thing that makes me want to take his side.
But I guess your mileage may vary.
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Collision (Set Two of the Fracture Block)
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I agree. I was actually quite alarmed when I came to this site at seeing the posts that were on here. I admit, the things that S_S has done are not things I agree with, but there's a point where we just have to move on. Some people are just taking it to levels it was never meant to go. There are people who are just mindlessly bashing S_S just because everyone else is doing it, people whom I question were ever part of the MTGNews community in the first place. If we're going to maintain this "one MTGNews community with two URLs" stance, it's going to have to go both ways. You may blame S_S for the divide, and for all I know you could very well be right, but a lot of the things I've seen on this forum will do nothing but perpetuate that divide.
How can you bash him for posting facts and then tell him that the facts will tell the story?
You're right, but DG had an excuse AND resigned his position. You see, DG got in a motorcycle accident and managed to do better than Raa, who bought the site in the same condition he is in now, only a year younger. S_S is not respected for the reasons posted here. By storming in without reading anything (which is what it sure as hell looks like you did, despite your claim) you didn't catch that whole aura of S_S not OWNING the site and being an incompetent jackass with a fuse about a micromillimeter long. Respect those who give you respect or you're in a sorry state, so we shoudn't respect S_S.
I have no extendo-sig. Sorry, I'm just not vain enough to think someone will click on it.
Whenever I post on the internet, be it on a public forum or a private AIM conversation, I assume that there is the possibility of that message being posted to the public for the entire world to see. After all, there are an incredible amount of ways for a private forum's information to escape, from simple things like a person with access reposting, or someone finding an exploit in the forum code and reading it without access at all.
Hence, I don't see why pasting stuff out of there is such a big deal. If it would embarass you incredibly to see something posted in public under your name, then why are you writing it?
As mikeyG said, I didn't post information from MTGnews's mod lounge. The information that was posted happened to be a couple of posts, one of mine, and one of JeffVondruska's, but it was urzassedatives who revealed them, when he quit. Cateran did post information from the mod lounge (it was one of his own posts).
That said, I support any and all leaks from said mod lounge. If I didn't know that somebody would go through it with a fine tooth comb beforehand and delete/edit/warp the posts contained therein, I'd advocate for somebody to reveal the entire thing to the community. As Mystic implied, conversations held between volunteers and the owner of a website can be deemed "private", but there's nothing wrong with showing those conversations to those they involve, especially after the volunteers no longer "work" for the owner. Especially considering there was never any contract involved. And if there was a contract between owner and volunteers involved, the owner surely violated it multiple times. Sure, he could fire someone who did that, but none of us "work" there any longer.
carpo's claim that I have posted mod lounge information is untrue. His claim that I have made "insultatory" and "libelous" comments to S_S is untrue. As for telling me to stop "making excuses", I can't figure out to what he refers. I haven't made any excuses (for what, anyway?) You ask for facts, but that's all I've given - I don't think you've been following the proceedings, carpo. As for being angry and hurt, you got that part right! I'm quickly getting over it.
And I've never stopped participating in my clan thread, general discussions, or talks in the Forum Control section with other mods on how to improve the site. I've also been working on filling in the partial spoiler.
I'm pretty sure you're simply here to cause more problems. Please don't.
.
Alright
Agreed, most things aren't black and white.
I'll have to say I agree both person made mistakes, but I have to argue that it is only by posting the private message are we the mass member understand what is going on from r_e's side. Mean while S_S has not provided us any solid fact. I don't believe r_e conducted a mass leave, it was through other member's choices that they invited many to this site and follows to invite r_e to join, r_e leaving was partly reponsible for the en masse but he was not responsible for conducting it.
I believe the messages that r_e has posted from the private forum warrents as facts?
like you said, people do make mistake. But keep in mind, the staff and the entire forum was under longer absense from S_S than DG, where (under impression from r_e's post) DG was gone shorter, got more things done than S_S during the period where he was recovering from the bike accident.
True, but from the look of things right now, S_S is very close being it unless he can provide some facts.
In addition to everything that has been said, above, keep in mind that S_S have decided to respond in a manner that guaranteed alienating people in the community. It's really a shame, to be honest, and I think this is what's burning people up.
I also have my issues with some of the things that have happened, on both "sides" of this. Over the years, I've learned to trust and respect 'Elf, however, but I'm not blind in that. He's human, just like the rest of us. But I respect his choices. When he could no longer feel good about the work he was doing for MTG News, he left. I know how hard that was (still haven't quite brought myself to doing it) - and I think that most of us here understand that, whether we have left MTG News or not.
However, I do not respect the choices S_S has made. They do not - in my opinion - make sense in terms of the business, the community, or even humanity. I have not heard reasons for the decisions he's made, even when explanations have been requested, and this troubles me even more.
It's just sad.
'Elf and the other admins didn't ask everyone to come over here. They just left. People came over here in an attempt to salvage the community.
So far, it's working.
Rabit
-tinker