@Chaosphere: He did have MD leyline, but only actually got turn zero Leyline a couple times. Those games were the toughest by far. Also, what is their board strategy against us?
Firstly, I apologize for my choice of words. Instead of saying I "find it difficult to believe" I should have instead "I find it difficult to fathom", as I DO believe you but when you said in 10+ games against Wargate Omen you only lost 1, this is difficult to comprehend, as that is a winning percentage of > 90%. While I do believe the matchup can go either way it should not be that lopsided. I find that it almost always comes down to the last turn.
I'm just interested in how these games played out and what version of Wargate Omen you played against. And once again I apologize if I offended, but it is just that your success against Omen piqued my interest :).
What I find difficult is that a Good Omen player will not always try to preordain/ponder to get an omen into their hand, so they can protect against Thoughtseize. 4 Thoughtseize is almost never enough against 4 Omen and 4 Wargate.
This is more like it
Sorry if I misunderstood. Text doesn't always convey true meaning very well.
It was a pretty standard list except he had MD Leyline, piloted by one of the better players in my area. He actually had at least 10 counters. I don't know if that's a lot, little or par for the course. Leak, CC and some # of Negate. I don't think he ever played omen without backup but when you come at them from so many different angles it seemed like he had a hard time dealing with everything, which I guess is kinda Junds' forte. He said my clock was just a little too fast.
General things I noticed:
-I made him pay with combined Blightning and Thoughtseize (sometimes multiples) literally every time I had an opening while putting pressure on with Leech. And that was basically the outline for most of the games.
-Leyline sucked for me, always had to pulse it. Games where he had turn 0 Leyline were where the Raging Ravines came up the biggest if I remember correctly.
-Blightning was the MVP.
-BBE is awesome here obviously (Really, when is he not?).
-Raging Ravine did some serious damage.
-Didn't play any SB'd games, but I think we'd have an advantage post-board. some # of Thought Hemmorhage will probably be in my SB.
I agree with you about the numbers as I was probably the most surprised person after the games. You can't have a 90+ winning % against almost any pile of cards. To get numbers like that you have to get great draws and curse him with bad ones at least some of the time. 1 testing session is not indicative of what the match up is like or how every list will do against the deck. I too believe this is a pretty close match and most of our games were pretty close. He was usually within a turn, maybe 2, of winning when I would, FINISH HIM!!!
P.S. The 1 game I lost was only because I didn't attack with a Raging Ravine. THE only reason. He was dead on board but I just completely missed my ravine just sitting there taunting me under that copperline gorge. Killed me next turn, a microcosm of the match up as a whole.
A lot of the time it is not worth bringing in TOO much hate for the omen valakut plan as their board will most likely be full of creatures (i.e Some combination of the following options; Wurmcoil Engine, Sun Titan, Kitchen Finks, GSS, etc.).
^I've heard of the transformational SB but was under the impression that was kind of an outdated idea. Didn't actually look into it though. Is it really that good of an idea against us? Why is Wurmcoil Engine so good against us? By that time shouldn't we have them low enough to start racing? (Not necessarily just the Wargate match but many others have him SB'd) Is Slave of Bolas shoe-in SB material now?
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If wargate brings in Wurmcoil Engine, they probably have also brought in Kitchen Finks. People are still experimenting with the correct man-plan from Omen sideboard. In 1 extreme case someone who placed well at a PTQ had 4 steppe Lynx and 3 Qasali Pridemade in the Board (plus some other creatures I think). Luckily many people have forgone Wurmcoil and Kitchen Finks (to a lesser degree) in their sideboards in favour of Day of Judgment.
^This sounds much better for us. Why would you want to play a stupid 6/6 deatouch/lifelink walking 2 or 3 for 1? Definitely don't feel as threatened by DoJ (you kids and your newfangled Wrath of Gods and Cranial Extractions and whatnot). I'm still kinda liking SoB (not just for its acronym), grabbing a titan or Wurmcoil and flinging it at your opponents face would be the nuts.
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Flores' SB plan is by far the worst for us, since Bolt is one of the cards we want least in the matchup, depending on how many cards you bring in for them. +4 Great Sable Stag +3 Wurmcoil Engine +3 Kitchen Finks, - Ramp Spells. Valakut/Omens remains intact, but the degree of inevitability, lifegain, speedbumps, and angles of attack they gain is pretty rough beats in my experience thus far.
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The 4 life matters and has mattered A LOT in my experience, depending on the match up. Claim left a bad taste in my mouth and I went away from it, but might consider putting it back.
BTW I liked your articles you linked on the last page. Recommended.
I do, you don't hit it every time because the laws of probability say that is impossible. But I think you should try to have it as much as possible. It's hard to have everything you want when you want it with so many combination's of colors. The Twilight Mires should be a 4-of but I only have access to 2 atm.
Firstly, you ARE criticizing my experiences. You're actually straight up calling me a liar (which I take offense to but will try to hold back my anger, for you won't like me when I'm angry:mad: ;)).
Second, why do you find it so hard to believe? All you said was I have the discard (which is almost literally all you need against them, if they can't set up the combo they can't win) but not enough pressure (idk, just simply not true obviously).
I am already on record in the previous thread saying the match up seemed like a coin flip. And that was after only maybe 4 games. Any results I post will be for nothing but the betterment of the deck. Why would somebody who's trying to fine tune their deck lie about test results? How would that help me or anyone in the community? (And yes, I really would like to hear reasonable answers to these questions)
Nobody is saying it's a cakewalk and I never said any of the games were easy (barring triple-blightning type awesomeness), but it is a very winnable match and I'd be glad to help with anything you have trouble with. Blightning, manlands, leeches and TS seemed like the main cards, either directly or retroactively, that lead to wins almost every time if you're wondering. What are you having trouble with in the match up?
Hitting your opponent with a multi-blightning attack will win you games and makes you feel
Not stating that your win percentage against omens isn't high, because a lot of lists aren't built to beat Jund, and focus too much on comboing out. But I know that my list and the recent PTQ omens list both have far easier times against jund and generally view it as a 60-40 matchup.
What is your guy's favorite removal package?
I was thinking:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Terminate
?x Bituminous Blast? (what happened with this card? I thought it was really good because of the insane CA it provided?)
Also, is there a better card to help the RDW matchup, it's been kind of... well... beating me a lot.
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^It says in the quote that I think this is a coin flip.
You run those both MD? As 4-ofs? Either way it would have to depend on the state of the game. Generally I would have to pulse the leyline and thoughtseize/duress/IoK in that situation taking away the omen or power spell (CC, Scapeshift, Wargate). I guess I would take whatever leaves me alive another turn though, whatever that may be lol. Lightning Bolt would be my GSS killer.
I was surprised I was able to rattle off so many games in a row. My next post after that says Leyline is a pain.
[EDIT]: My favorite removal suite is currently:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse (4th in the board)
2 Terminate
2 Bit Blast (love it for being able to kill mistbinds and actually getting to play magic the turns they play mistbind)
I'm thinking some number of Slave of Bolas is going to be in my SB
^It says in the quote that I think this is a coin flip.
You run those both MD? As 4-ofs? Either way it would have to depend on the state of the game. Generally I would have to pulse the leyline and thoughtseize/duress/IoK in that situation taking away the omen or power spell (CC, Scapeshift, Wargate). I guess I would take whatever leaves me alive another turn though, whatever that may be lol. Lightning Bolt would be my GSS killer.
I was surprised I was able to rattle off so many games in a row. My next post after that says Leyline is a pain.
[EDIT]: My favorite removal suite is currently:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse (4th in the board)
2 Terminate
2 Bit Blast (love it for being able to kill mistbinds and actually getting to play magic the turns they play mistbind)
I'm thinking some number of Slave of Bolas is going to be in my SB
Glad to know someone else is loving Bit Blast too It just gives you too much versatility, like against faeries EOT Bit Blast on Ven Clique, Run into Blood Braid -> Anthaemancer. Then next turn drop Demigod, swing for ridiculous. I'm loving the CA it brings.
Also ran into an interesting Jund deck that was running Scattershot Archer MD, saying that it does extremely well against fae. Don't think I'd run it mainboard, but I really like how powerful it is against fae, as it pretty much reads," Target player is immune to faeries." Of course they have a lot of removal for it, but you gain alot from the card, early or late game, and with IoK/Thoughtsieze you are fairly protected. What do you guys think?
And lastly, I run 3 white leylines because I rarely want more then 2, and though I do always want it in my opener don't want to grab it as a dead draw. I do however run GSS md, because he is an extreme beast and online you run into Jund or Faeries or Tokens or Wargate seriously often, and he allows you to stretch across for some serious damage through the span of a game. So, based on online meta atm I do indeed run him 4 of md.
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I do like the idea of the Scattershot Archer in the sideboard but i would keep down to a 3 of cause that is really the only deck it is really usefull against.
not sure if its the best answer to wurmcoil engine but i have been running 3 slave of bolas in my sideboard and its worked pretty well for me against wurmcoil,baneslayer, primeval titans.....especially against wurmcoil engine....its fun to see them tap out for it and then watch you take it smash with it then sac it and put your very own 3/3 tokens on the board...good times for all!
So how do people feel about "crossing your fingers and hoping your opponent doesn't cast it," as a valid strategy against Wurmcoil Engine? That seems to be the single scariest card an opponent can cast against us, but every niche answer I try to squeeze into my 75 just seems to further dilute the deck.
As for Demigod, I have mixed feelings about it. On some board states, it's just piss-poor. On others, it's your only out to victory. I'm not a fan of high-marginal cards, but for now it seems necessary to go over the top of players banking on the ability to win games by tapping out for Wurmcoil with no air defense.
What is everyones oppinion about WargateOmen(especially ones with md leyline) matchup? I was wondering, would Tunnel Ignus be sb-card worth a shot?
No i wouldnt use Tunnel Ignus because you would be taking up a sideboard that could be use for something a lil more versitile, and plus jund should beat wargate hands down.
What is everyones oppinion about WargateOmen(especially ones with md leyline) matchup? I was wondering, would Tunnel Ignus be sb-card worth a shot?
Does Ignus even damage them if they have a Leyline in play. I can't figure it out based on the wording of the cards. I feel like it shouldn't but Ignus doesn't target so it might. Anyone know more than me?
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
i agree with this completely, i played against wargate in the gpt and beat it 2-0 he had MD leyline but i just played aggro untill i could pulse then lit him up with lightnings and blightnings......after boarding it was even easier
I just keep the 4 Maelstrom Pulse MD and add 3 Nature's Claim from the sideboard. I found out the key here is enchantment removal, and with us running green is not a problem. Leonin Arbiter, Tunnel Ignus and other lands shaneanigans were not as much effective. Also, go heavy on the discard, keep your blightnings in and add 4 Thoughseize
i agree with this completely, i played against wargate in the gpt and beat it 2-0 he had MD leyline but i just played aggro untill i could pulse then lit him up with lightnings and blightnings......after boarding it was even easier
This was is my gameplan against Omen. Well that and hope they don't have turn 0 Leyline. Although Leyline makes your role in the match very clear (definitely not saying I like when he has leyline), you have to just drop as many guys as possible and wait for an opening to pulse his Leyline. What else can you really do?
@Grim: Did he board in the Wurmcoils, Finks and all that nasty stuff? If so, how did the interactions with those cards go?
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I do like the idea of the Scattershot Archer in the sideboard but i would keep down to a 3 of cause that is really the only deck it is really usefull against.
Problem here IMO is that every single piece of removal that Fae runs (except the awful Peppersmoke) takes out Scattershot Archer and whiffs against most of the rest of the Jund creature base.
not sure if its the best answer to wurmcoil engine but i have been running 3 slave of bolas in my sideboard and its worked pretty well for me against wurmcoil,baneslayer, primeval titans.....especially against wurmcoil engine....its fun to see them tap out for it and then watch you take it smash with it then sac it and put your very own 3/3 tokens on the board...good times for all!
FWIW Slave of Bolas is perhaps the best answer to Wurmcoil Engine that I've seen so far. It's also solid against a few other decks in the format, deals with the occasional (summoning sick) Knight of the Reliquary, random Primeval Titans or Wooly Thoctars, and others.
Agreed. Leyline does not seem to effect me much. I use the same strategy, wait for a pulse and rock him.
Leyline of Sanctity is either a non-factor or a huge thorn for Jund depending on your build and, of course, their draw. Anathemancer, Blightning, Thoughtseize... When playing against someone with maindeck Leyline, or where I know they're coming in postboard, mulliganing aggressively is a must to avoid getting wrecked.
I really want to see Fulminator Mage maindeck, as I feel it can be very backbreaking to my opponents tempo the turn before Bloodbraid Elf. Constructive feedback please.
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This is more like it
Sorry if I misunderstood. Text doesn't always convey true meaning very well.
It was a pretty standard list except he had MD Leyline, piloted by one of the better players in my area. He actually had at least 10 counters. I don't know if that's a lot, little or par for the course. Leak, CC and some # of Negate. I don't think he ever played omen without backup but when you come at them from so many different angles it seemed like he had a hard time dealing with everything, which I guess is kinda Junds' forte. He said my clock was just a little too fast.
General things I noticed:
-I made him pay with combined Blightning and Thoughtseize (sometimes multiples) literally every time I had an opening while putting pressure on with Leech. And that was basically the outline for most of the games.
-Leyline sucked for me, always had to pulse it. Games where he had turn 0 Leyline were where the Raging Ravines came up the biggest if I remember correctly.
-Blightning was the MVP.
-BBE is awesome here obviously (Really, when is he not?).
-Raging Ravine did some serious damage.
-Didn't play any SB'd games, but I think we'd have an advantage post-board. some # of Thought Hemmorhage will probably be in my SB.
I agree with you about the numbers as I was probably the most surprised person after the games. You can't have a 90+ winning % against almost any pile of cards. To get numbers like that you have to get great draws and curse him with bad ones at least some of the time. 1 testing session is not indicative of what the match up is like or how every list will do against the deck. I too believe this is a pretty close match and most of our games were pretty close. He was usually within a turn, maybe 2, of winning when I would,
FINISH HIM!!!
P.S. The 1 game I lost was only because I didn't attack with a Raging Ravine. THE only reason. He was dead on board but I just completely missed my ravine just sitting there taunting me under that copperline gorge. Killed me next turn, a microcosm of the match up as a whole.
I run Great Stable Stag, Leyline of Sanctity. Those two cards give me more then pushing room against jund. And before you answer that you Maelstrom Pulse it off the board, then what do you do about omen?
Not stating that your win percentage against omens isn't high, because a lot of lists aren't built to beat Jund, and focus too much on comboing out. But I know that my list and the recent PTQ omens list both have far easier times against jund and generally view it as a 60-40 matchup.
What is your guy's favorite removal package?
I was thinking:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Terminate
?x Bituminous Blast? (what happened with this card? I thought it was really good because of the insane CA it provided?)
Also, is there a better card to help the RDW matchup, it's been kind of... well... beating me a lot.
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House
You run those both MD? As 4-ofs? Either way it would have to depend on the state of the game. Generally I would have to pulse the leyline and thoughtseize/duress/IoK in that situation taking away the omen or power spell (CC, Scapeshift, Wargate). I guess I would take whatever leaves me alive another turn though, whatever that may be lol. Lightning Bolt would be my GSS killer.
I was surprised I was able to rattle off so many games in a row. My next post after that says Leyline is a pain.
[EDIT]: My favorite removal suite is currently:
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Maelstrom Pulse (4th in the board)
2 Terminate
2 Bit Blast (love it for being able to kill mistbinds and actually getting to play magic the turns they play mistbind)
I'm thinking some number of Slave of Bolas is going to be in my SB
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Glad to know someone else is loving Bit Blast too It just gives you too much versatility, like against faeries EOT Bit Blast on Ven Clique, Run into Blood Braid -> Anthaemancer. Then next turn drop Demigod, swing for ridiculous. I'm loving the CA it brings.
Also ran into an interesting Jund deck that was running Scattershot Archer MD, saying that it does extremely well against fae. Don't think I'd run it mainboard, but I really like how powerful it is against fae, as it pretty much reads," Target player is immune to faeries." Of course they have a lot of removal for it, but you gain alot from the card, early or late game, and with IoK/Thoughtsieze you are fairly protected. What do you guys think?
And lastly, I run 3 white leylines because I rarely want more then 2, and though I do always want it in my opener don't want to grab it as a dead draw. I do however run GSS md, because he is an extreme beast and online you run into Jund or Faeries or Tokens or Wargate seriously often, and he allows you to stretch across for some serious damage through the span of a game. So, based on online meta atm I do indeed run him 4 of md.
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House
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I know leonin arbiter literally does nothing, so I have to imagine the ignus is not particularly impressive.
No i wouldnt use Tunnel Ignus because you would be taking up a sideboard that could be use for something a lil more versitile, and plus jund should beat wargate hands down.
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Does Ignus even damage them if they have a Leyline in play. I can't figure it out based on the wording of the cards. I feel like it shouldn't but Ignus doesn't target so it might. Anyone know more than me?
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This was is my gameplan against Omen. Well that and hope they don't have turn 0 Leyline. Although Leyline makes your role in the match very clear (definitely not saying I like when he has leyline), you have to just drop as many guys as possible and wait for an opening to pulse his Leyline. What else can you really do?
@Grim: Did he board in the Wurmcoils, Finks and all that nasty stuff? If so, how did the interactions with those cards go?
Problem here IMO is that every single piece of removal that Fae runs (except the awful Peppersmoke) takes out Scattershot Archer and whiffs against most of the rest of the Jund creature base.
I think it's a poor choice, but a cool idea.
FWIW Slave of Bolas is perhaps the best answer to Wurmcoil Engine that I've seen so far. It's also solid against a few other decks in the format, deals with the occasional (summoning sick) Knight of the Reliquary, random Primeval Titans or Wooly Thoctars, and others.
Leyline of Sanctity is either a non-factor or a huge thorn for Jund depending on your build and, of course, their draw. Anathemancer, Blightning, Thoughtseize... When playing against someone with maindeck Leyline, or where I know they're coming in postboard, mulliganing aggressively is a must to avoid getting wrecked.
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Fulminator Mage
3 Anathemancer
4 Putrid Leech
3 Fauna Shaman
1 Shriekmaw
4 Blightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Savage Lands
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Raging Ravine
4 Twilight Mire
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
1 Graven Cairns
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Thoughtseize
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Nature's Claim
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Terminate
2 Slave of Bolas
I really want to see Fulminator Mage maindeck, as I feel it can be very backbreaking to my opponents tempo the turn before Bloodbraid Elf. Constructive feedback please.