well in my personal opinion when Fauna shaman is played its just way to vunirable to everything spell pierce, lighning bolt and so on its just a lil to much of a gamble to me.
@madsage2049
like i said about the cloudthresher im not hard casting him as much as i am evokeing him
you go and get him with fanashaman and you have a tutorable sweeper vs frea that if the game goes long enuff i can hard cast like vs 4cc but i dont have to
@madsage2049
like i said about the cloudthresher im not hard casting him as much as i am evokeing him
you go and get him with fanashaman and you have a tutorable sweeper vs frea that if the game goes long enuff i can hard cast like vs 4cc but i dont have to
I don't think its terrible as a singleton, but what are you replacing the other demigods with?
I really don't see any reason to run Jund Charm over Fallout.
A) Jund Charm is incredible mana intensive, and while it is fairly easy to hit our colors, I don't want to risk stumbling.
B) Jund Charm and Fallout are equally good against Elves!, Tempered Steel, and other weenie styles. However, Fallout is much, much, much better against Faeries.
C) The reason to run Jund Charm is for it's other abilities. However, those other abilities are rarely used. The Tormod's Crypt ability is fairly good, but it is only good against a handful of decks... which we already have a good matchup against. The most popular one would be Necrotic Ooze, and let's face it. We have so much removal they will never assemble the combo (and Jund Charm is really bad against them since they will just color screw us).
If you can play Leech on turn 2 and finks on turn 3, Jund Charm's mana cost will not be a problem. The mana is fine.
This deck already has game against Faeries with zero sweepers, but obv Fallout is better here. Jund Charm's bonuses come against other decks that use Vengevine, Knight of the Reliquary, Ooze, Lark, etc.
I would much rather have a better tool against Vengevine decks, which are a problem for Jund than a slightly better sweeper against Faeries. In my mind the Faerie matchup just comes down to if they have Wurmcoil Engine anyway.
I understand the effectiveness of demigod but by the time i cast him i was way too far behind.
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@hivetyrant: Sygg is kind of my default 2-drop. I try other stuff but when they don't work I go back to 2 Sygg. I would go with Terminate over Doomblade.
I played 10+ games against Wargate today and only lost once. That was even with dead cards like Bitiminous Blast and Terminate coming up in multiples very frequently. Didn't play any sideboarded games so I don't know how that would go but the list I was playing seems to have a pretty good game 1. This was the list I was playing,
Summary:
He had the white Leyline MD'd which hurt on quite a few occasions. It seemed like when I had dead cards in my hand I could beatdown with manlands and leech. Leech was awesome. He was the biggest reason for most of the wins.
Faeries:
I played a couple games against faeries too, all losses. I didn't really draw anything and kept some hands I shouldn't have. My prior experience with fae is good so I'm confident in that match despite a few bad games.
Things I'd change (or not):
-I think the Bit Blasts are going to be Fauna Shaman. Just didn't have any.
-I liked the 5 discard spells. 1st turn discard, 2nd turn leech opening is my favorite opening against most decks. I especially like the 1st turn discard if I don't know what I'm playing against for obvious reasons. The discard was only a liability when he had Leyline, but so are blightning, bolt and mancer.
-Didn't miss another 3-drop creature in this match. Anathemancer wasn't that great as he had basics usually when I'd cast him, I don't think he did more than 4, and 4 only once. Boggart Ram-Gang would probably have been better here.
Question:
WHAT IS THE BEST 3-DROP?!?!?!
Anathemancer would be good against most other decks, but it just seemed OK here. Maybe a MD mix of Ram-gang and Mancer with 4 Finks SB?
I've got a couple of pages of reading in here to catch up with, but I've done a good deal of writing about Jund in the last couple of weeks. I've taken it on as my project for this Extended season provided the field makeups don't change too much by the end.
I'd love it if you all would share your thoughts on these
I see a lot of you all playing Naturalize over Nature's Claim. I know Naturalize doesn't have that funky +4 life clause, but Nature's Claim is a much better option. Being able to cast it for just G means you can fit it into your early-game curve much better (relevant in matchups like Tempered Steel especially, where 1G means you often have to choose casting it or making a blocker).
I think I'm the only one with no demigods in the list
I thought I was the last holdout on Demigod. I didn't run any in the last MTGO PTQ, and I'm realizing now how big of a mistake that is. As of this afternoon, literally every single Jund deck that has Top-8ed a PTQ this season has had 4x Demigod of Revenge. Every. Single. One.
I think that's a pretty clear consensus Jund in its current configurations and the current field makeup needs 4 Demigod of Revenge.
While I definitely agree that Thoughtseize into Putrid Leech is amazing it wouldn't occur often. Using Skeeter Eater's mana base as a guide, he has 8 lands to cast Thoughtseize first turn. Then assuming you got 1 of those 8 lands and a Thoughtseize, you cast the Thoughtseize. Then 2nd turn there are only 4 lands to follow up your first land drop to enable you to cast Putrid Leech.
In addition, I find it hard to believe that you won so many games against wargate omen. Whilst you have the disruption, you don't seem to have the pressure. You basically have to always have Putrid Leech, and even then there aren't many creatures to follow that up (IMHO not enough 3-drop creatures). I'm not criticizing your experiences, but as a huge advocate of Jund, I've played many games with Jund, but I've had difficulty against Wargate Omen.
I thought I was the last holdout on Demigod. I didn't run any in the last MTGO PTQ, and I'm realizing now how big of a mistake that is. As of this afternoon, literally every single Jund deck that has Top-8ed a PTQ this season has had 4x Demigod of Revenge. Every. Single. One.
I think that's a pretty clear consensus Jund in its current configurations and the current field makeup needs 4 Demigod of Revenge.
Dylan/@dtlerch
Maybe. Perhaps is a matter to view things and the goal of the deck. I really really dont like having 2 demigods opening hand and get beating by fae aggro mode: on. For me Jund is a pressure deck and the start is essential and definitive. For what i tested and dont see the necesity of demigods, I think jund have 4 essential cards: obviusly BloodBraid Elf, LEECH (dont cut them for fauna shamans!) Boggart, and Thoughseize (maindecking 3, thinking about the 4th)
Thoughseize wins the 90% of all matches, I think the best card in the whole extended format.
Concerning the 3 drop slot, I feel the Ramgang and Finks r the way to go. My reasons are as follows:
Vs everything EXCEPT 4/5CC, Ananthemancer is just mediocre. Most builds I have seen are putting in lots of basics for just this reason. Fae does run a fair bit, but, 2 decks are hardly a reason to MD another 3 drop.
Obviously its a meta choice, but as far as all the Online events are concerned I'm not seeing a lot of 4CC, but I am seeing lots of Fae, Jund, Wargate, and some fringe Naya.
what is everyones thoughts of Thoughtseize maindeck vs. sideboard?
i know i was on the cut the leeches bandwagon but after listening to you guys and some testing i was definitely a little hasty. i think that came from my only loss in rounds at my GPT came at the hands of RDW nuking my leeches and beating me 2-1.
Concerning the 3 drop slot, I feel the Ramgang and Finks r the way to go. My reasons are as follows:
Vs everything EXCEPT 4/5CC, Ananthemancer is just mediocre. Most builds I have seen are putting in lots of basics for just this reason. Fae does run a fair bit, but, 2 decks are hardly a reason to MD another 3 drop.
Obviously its a meta choice, but as far as all the Online events are concerned I'm not seeing a lot of 4CC, but I am seeing lots of Fae, Jund, Wargate, and some fringe Naya.
You put it perfectly. Anathemancer (for me) vs jund is great, and so 4/4cc. But then is a mediocre creature, and sometimes like WW or monored is ridiculous, I run 3 MD but I dont know what other 3 drop jund needs, and if you assume that you will face a lot of junds and 4/5cc, seems the perfect candidate to be in the MD.
Is a dificult choice, a metacall if you wish to put it that way. But with blinded eyes and with zero knowleage of metagame; a pure jund deck thinking only in jund; I don't think he deserve a spot in the deck.
So how do people feel about "crossing your fingers and hoping your opponent doesn't cast it," as a valid strategy against Wurmcoil Engine? That seems to be the single scariest card an opponent can cast against us, but every niche answer I try to squeeze into my 75 just seems to further dilute the deck.
As for Demigod, I have mixed feelings about it. On some board states, it's just piss-poor. On others, it's your only out to victory. I'm not a fan of high-marginal cards, but for now it seems necessary to go over the top of players banking on the ability to win games by tapping out for Wurmcoil with no air defense.
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what is everyones thoughts of Thoughtseize maindeck vs. sideboard?
i know i was on the cut the leeches bandwagon but after listening to you guys and some testing i was definitely a little hasty. i think that came from my only loss in rounds at my GPT came at the hands of RDW nuking my leeches and beating me 2-1.
After seeing Lauren Lee's decklist from Roanoke with 4x Thoughtseize maindeck and 3x Blightning sideboard, I'm sold. I think it's a brilliant compromise for the crowded 3-drop spot.
Also, keep in mind that Thoughtseize is not always the optimal turn 1 play. Saving it until turn 2 or 3 (obviously dependent on the threats you have) may be optimal at times!
Concerning the 3 drop slot, I feel the Ramgang and Finks r the way to go. My reasons are as follows:
Vs everything EXCEPT 4/5CC, Ananthemancer is just mediocre. Most builds I have seen are putting in lots of basics for just this reason. Fae does run a fair bit, but, 2 decks are hardly a reason to MD another 3 drop.
Obviously its a meta choice, but as far as all the Online events are concerned I'm not seeing a lot of 4CC, but I am seeing lots of Fae, Jund, Wargate, and some fringe Naya.
Boggart Ram-Gang is mediocre in an environment full of Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Smother, Doom Blade, etc. Kitchen Finks shrugs off all of those, while providing a dual-role against both Control and Aggro decks. If Path to Exile makes a comeback (or Disfigure gains more ground), I would recommend Ram-Gang.
Until then, Finks it is IMO.
Finks also, obviously, has natural synergy with Putrid Leech and Thoughtseize.
So how do people feel about "crossing your fingers and hoping your opponent doesn't cast it," as a valid strategy against Wurmcoil Engine? That seems to be the single scariest card an opponent can cast against us, but every niche answer I try to squeeze into my 75 just seems to further dilute the deck.
As for Demigod, I have mixed feelings about it. On some board states, it's just piss-poor. On others, it's your only out to victory. I'm not a fan of high-marginal cards, but for now it seems necessary to go over the top of players banking on the ability to win games by tapping out for Wurmcoil with no air defense.
So far, Wurmcoil Engine has only shown up as a 1-of or 2-of, often out of the Sideboard. It's a card though that's going to see much more play as the format evolves, and I'm not really sure the best way for Jund to deal with it.
So how do people feel about "crossing your fingers and hoping your opponent doesn't cast it," as a valid strategy against Wurmcoil Engine? That seems to be the single scariest card an opponent can cast against us, but every niche answer I try to squeeze into my 75 just seems to further dilute the deck.
As for Demigod, I have mixed feelings about it. On some board states, it's just piss-poor. On others, it's your only out to victory. I'm not a fan of high-marginal cards, but for now it seems necessary to go over the top of players banking on the ability to win games by tapping out for Wurmcoil with no air defense.
Well, thhoughseize is put above other discard cards because discards Wurmcoil Engine and Bloodbraid elf and the holy rest of good cards, but is not cross your fingers and hope, is knowning went to use thoughseize well. If you opp topdeck, ok, not your fault, but if you play thoughseize wisely you have and important advantage and yes, is the only solution on wurmcoil engine, that and... cross your fingers
I see a lot of you all playing Naturalize over Nature's Claim. I know Naturalize doesn't have that funky +4 life clause, but Nature's Claim is a much better option. Being able to cast it for just G means you can fit it into your early-game curve much better (relevant in matchups like Tempered Steel especially, where 1G means you often have to choose casting it or making a blocker).
The 4 life matters and has mattered A LOT in my experience, depending on the match up. Claim left a bad taste in my mouth and I went away from it, but might consider putting it back.
BTW I liked your articles you linked on the last page. Recommended.
@ Skeeter: Do u find it hard to consitently play T1 discard and T2 Leech with all those CIPT lands?
I do, you don't hit it every time because the laws of probability say that is impossible. But I think you should try to have it as much as possible. It's hard to have everything you want when you want it with so many combination's of colors. The Twilight Mires should be a 4-of but I only have access to 2 atm.
In addition, I find it hard to believe that you won so many games against wargate omen. Whilst you have the disruption, you don't seem to have the pressure. You basically have to always have Putrid Leech, and even then there aren't many creatures to follow that up (IMHO not enough 3-drop creatures). I'm not criticizing your experiences, but as a huge advocate of Jund, I've played many games with Jund, but I've had difficulty against Wargate Omen.
Firstly, you ARE criticizing my experiences. You're actually straight up calling me a liar (which I take offense to but will try to hold back my anger, for you won't like me when I'm angry:mad: ;)).
Second, why do you find it so hard to believe? All you said was I have the discard (which is almost literally all you need against them, if they can't set up the combo they can't win) but not enough pressure (idk, just simply not true obviously).
I am already on record in the previous thread saying the match up seemed like a coin flip. And that was after only maybe 4 games. Any results I post will be for nothing but the betterment of the deck. Why would somebody who's trying to fine tune their deck lie about test results? How would that help me or anyone in the community? (And yes, I really would like to hear reasonable answers to these questions)
Nobody is saying it's a cakewalk and I never said any of the games were easy (barring triple-blightning type awesomeness), but it is a very winnable match and I'd be glad to help with anything you have trouble with. Blightning, manlands, leeches and TS seemed like the main cards, either directly or retroactively, that lead to wins almost every time if you're wondering. What are you having trouble with in the match up?
Hitting your opponent with a multi-blightning attack will win you games and makes you feel
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Firstly, I apologize for my choice of words. Instead of saying I "find it difficult to believe" I should have instead "I find it difficult to fathom", as I DO believe you but when you said in 10+ games against Wargate Omen you only lost 1, this is difficult to comprehend, as that is a winning percentage of > 90%. While I do believe the matchup can go either way it should not be that lopsided. I find that it almost always comes down to the last turn.
I'm just interested in how these games played out and what version of Wargate Omen you played against. And once again I apologize if I offended, but it is just that your success against Omen piqued my interest :).
What I find difficult is that a Good Omen player will not always try to preordain/ponder to get an omen into their hand, so they can protect against Thoughtseize. 4 Thoughtseize is almost never enough against 4 Omen and 4 Wargate.
It's fine to take Skeeter's word at face-value. He played all G1s. Unless their list is running MD leyine and multiple Scapeshifts/Primeval Titans pre-SB, we are heavily favored. It's the post-SB games that crush us (depending on their board strategy).
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like i said about the cloudthresher im not hard casting him as much as i am evokeing him
you go and get him with fanashaman and you have a tutorable sweeper vs frea that if the game goes long enuff i can hard cast like vs 4cc but i dont have to
I don't think its terrible as a singleton, but what are you replacing the other demigods with?
If you can play Leech on turn 2 and finks on turn 3, Jund Charm's mana cost will not be a problem. The mana is fine.
This deck already has game against Faeries with zero sweepers, but obv Fallout is better here. Jund Charm's bonuses come against other decks that use Vengevine, Knight of the Reliquary, Ooze, Lark, etc.
I would much rather have a better tool against Vengevine decks, which are a problem for Jund than a slightly better sweeper against Faeries. In my mind the Faerie matchup just comes down to if they have Wurmcoil Engine anyway.
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4 putrid leech
4 bloodbraid elf
2 sygg, river cutthroat
4 boggart ram-gang
2 kitchen finks
4 anathemancer
Spells: 14
4 blightning
4 maelstrom pulse
4 lightning bolt
2 bituminous blast
2 mountain
1 forest
1 swamp
2 twilight mire
2 graven cairns
4 raging ravine
1 lavaclaw reach
4 savage lands
3 copperline gorge
3 blackcleave cliffs
2 reflecting pool
4 thoughtseize
2 fulminator mage
2 kitchen finks
4 volcanic fallout
3 doom blade
I understand the effectiveness of demigod but by the time i cast him i was way too far behind.
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I played 10+ games against Wargate today and only lost once. That was even with dead cards like Bitiminous Blast and Terminate coming up in multiples very frequently. Didn't play any sideboarded games so I don't know how that would go but the list I was playing seems to have a pretty good game 1. This was the list I was playing,
4 Blackecleave Cliffs
2 Copperline Gorge
4 Raging Ravine
1 Lavaclaw reaches
3 Reflecting Pool
3 Savage Lands
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Twilight Mire
1 Graven Cairns
1 Fire-Lit Thicket
2 Swamp
1 Murmuring Bosk
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Putrid Leech
4 Demigod of Revenge
3 Anathemancer
Other Spells (19)
4 Blightning
3 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
2 Bituminous Blast
2 Terminate
He had the white Leyline MD'd which hurt on quite a few occasions. It seemed like when I had dead cards in my hand I could beatdown with manlands and leech. Leech was awesome. He was the biggest reason for most of the wins.
Faeries:
I played a couple games against faeries too, all losses. I didn't really draw anything and kept some hands I shouldn't have. My prior experience with fae is good so I'm confident in that match despite a few bad games.
Things I'd change (or not):
-I think the Bit Blasts are going to be Fauna Shaman. Just didn't have any.
-I liked the 5 discard spells. 1st turn discard, 2nd turn leech opening is my favorite opening against most decks. I especially like the 1st turn discard if I don't know what I'm playing against for obvious reasons. The discard was only a liability when he had Leyline, but so are blightning, bolt and mancer.
-Didn't miss another 3-drop creature in this match. Anathemancer wasn't that great as he had basics usually when I'd cast him, I don't think he did more than 4, and 4 only once. Boggart Ram-Gang would probably have been better here.
Question:
WHAT IS THE BEST 3-DROP?!?!?!
Anathemancer would be good against most other decks, but it just seemed OK here. Maybe a MD mix of Ram-gang and Mancer with 4 Finks SB?
This is my current sideboard,
I'd love it if you all would share your thoughts on these
Piecing Jund Together
Jund Playtest Files No. 1 (MTGO videos)
Jund Another Bitterblossom Deck, and More Jund Too
Thanks guys. As I get through this thread, I'll have some responses here too
Dylan/@dtlerch
Nature's Claim also hits a turn 0 Leyline of Sanctity before Mana Leak comes online.
In short, Nature's Claim >>> Naturalize.
Dylan/@dtlerch
Dylan/@dtlerch
I thought I was the last holdout on Demigod. I didn't run any in the last MTGO PTQ, and I'm realizing now how big of a mistake that is. As of this afternoon, literally every single Jund deck that has Top-8ed a PTQ this season has had 4x Demigod of Revenge. Every. Single. One.
I think that's a pretty clear consensus Jund in its current configurations and the current field makeup needs 4 Demigod of Revenge.
Dylan/@dtlerch
In addition, I find it hard to believe that you won so many games against wargate omen. Whilst you have the disruption, you don't seem to have the pressure. You basically have to always have Putrid Leech, and even then there aren't many creatures to follow that up (IMHO not enough 3-drop creatures). I'm not criticizing your experiences, but as a huge advocate of Jund, I've played many games with Jund, but I've had difficulty against Wargate Omen.
Maybe. Perhaps is a matter to view things and the goal of the deck. I really really dont like having 2 demigods opening hand and get beating by fae aggro mode: on. For me Jund is a pressure deck and the start is essential and definitive. For what i tested and dont see the necesity of demigods, I think jund have 4 essential cards: obviusly BloodBraid Elf, LEECH (dont cut them for fauna shamans!) Boggart, and Thoughseize (maindecking 3, thinking about the 4th)
Thoughseize wins the 90% of all matches, I think the best card in the whole extended format.
Vs everything EXCEPT 4/5CC, Ananthemancer is just mediocre. Most builds I have seen are putting in lots of basics for just this reason. Fae does run a fair bit, but, 2 decks are hardly a reason to MD another 3 drop.
Obviously its a meta choice, but as far as all the Online events are concerned I'm not seeing a lot of 4CC, but I am seeing lots of Fae, Jund, Wargate, and some fringe Naya.
Kristain also makes a valid point. While I like Demigod, I believe the way to go is: Seize, leech, ramgang, bbe......whatever ur deck gives u.
i know i was on the cut the leeches bandwagon but after listening to you guys and some testing i was definitely a little hasty. i think that came from my only loss in rounds at my GPT came at the hands of RDW nuking my leeches and beating me 2-1.
ok now i have a dillemma....fauna shaman sygg, river cutthroat kitchen finks putrid leech lotus cobra i want all of them what to play and what to cut?
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You put it perfectly. Anathemancer (for me) vs jund is great, and so 4/4cc. But then is a mediocre creature, and sometimes like WW or monored is ridiculous, I run 3 MD but I dont know what other 3 drop jund needs, and if you assume that you will face a lot of junds and 4/5cc, seems the perfect candidate to be in the MD.
Is a dificult choice, a metacall if you wish to put it that way. But with blinded eyes and with zero knowleage of metagame; a pure jund deck thinking only in jund; I don't think he deserve a spot in the deck.
As for Demigod, I have mixed feelings about it. On some board states, it's just piss-poor. On others, it's your only out to victory. I'm not a fan of high-marginal cards, but for now it seems necessary to go over the top of players banking on the ability to win games by tapping out for Wurmcoil with no air defense.
After seeing Lauren Lee's decklist from Roanoke with 4x Thoughtseize maindeck and 3x Blightning sideboard, I'm sold. I think it's a brilliant compromise for the crowded 3-drop spot.
Also, keep in mind that Thoughtseize is not always the optimal turn 1 play. Saving it until turn 2 or 3 (obviously dependent on the threats you have) may be optimal at times!
Boggart Ram-Gang is mediocre in an environment full of Lightning Bolt, Terminate, Maelstrom Pulse, Smother, Doom Blade, etc. Kitchen Finks shrugs off all of those, while providing a dual-role against both Control and Aggro decks. If Path to Exile makes a comeback (or Disfigure gains more ground), I would recommend Ram-Gang.
Until then, Finks it is IMO.
Finks also, obviously, has natural synergy with Putrid Leech and Thoughtseize.
So far, Wurmcoil Engine has only shown up as a 1-of or 2-of, often out of the Sideboard. It's a card though that's going to see much more play as the format evolves, and I'm not really sure the best way for Jund to deal with it.
White splash for Path?
Well, thhoughseize is put above other discard cards because discards Wurmcoil Engine and Bloodbraid elf and the holy rest of good cards, but is not cross your fingers and hope, is knowning went to use thoughseize well. If you opp topdeck, ok, not your fault, but if you play thoughseize wisely you have and important advantage and yes, is the only solution on wurmcoil engine, that and... cross your fingers
The 4 life matters and has mattered A LOT in my experience, depending on the match up. Claim left a bad taste in my mouth and I went away from it, but might consider putting it back.
BTW I liked your articles you linked on the last page. Recommended.
I do, you don't hit it every time because the laws of probability say that is impossible. But I think you should try to have it as much as possible. It's hard to have everything you want when you want it with so many combination's of colors. The Twilight Mires should be a 4-of but I only have access to 2 atm.
Firstly, you ARE criticizing my experiences. You're actually straight up calling me a liar (which I take offense to but will try to hold back my anger, for you won't like me when I'm angry:mad: ;)).
Second, why do you find it so hard to believe? All you said was I have the discard (which is almost literally all you need against them, if they can't set up the combo they can't win) but not enough pressure (idk, just simply not true obviously).
I am already on record in the previous thread saying the match up seemed like a coin flip. And that was after only maybe 4 games. Any results I post will be for nothing but the betterment of the deck. Why would somebody who's trying to fine tune their deck lie about test results? How would that help me or anyone in the community? (And yes, I really would like to hear reasonable answers to these questions)
Nobody is saying it's a cakewalk and I never said any of the games were easy (barring triple-blightning type awesomeness), but it is a very winnable match and I'd be glad to help with anything you have trouble with. Blightning, manlands, leeches and TS seemed like the main cards, either directly or retroactively, that lead to wins almost every time if you're wondering. What are you having trouble with in the match up?
Hitting your opponent with a multi-blightning attack will win you games and makes you feel
I'm just interested in how these games played out and what version of Wargate Omen you played against. And once again I apologize if I offended, but it is just that your success against Omen piqued my interest :).
What I find difficult is that a Good Omen player will not always try to preordain/ponder to get an omen into their hand, so they can protect against Thoughtseize. 4 Thoughtseize is almost never enough against 4 Omen and 4 Wargate.