extended is a bunch of mid-range or slower decks, like old standard, where discard ups your win curve significantly. it is also why red is just doing pretty well right now.
i don't know what your secret sauce is, but i don't doubt a finely tuned aggro deck that has since flown under the radar will win or at least do very well in any upcoming major events.
Red is doing pretty well right now because it consistently wins on t5 (fast enough to race Omen) and has a natural edge on Faeries by turning Bitterblossom against them. Jund is doing well, because well... it's Jund and people are lazy. Naya does well, but same story there, it can consistently win on T5 since it's guys all hit like mack trucks. Any good Mythic hand wins on T4; 5 if disrupted.
Long story short, all the best decks are either Fae or can win on T5 with good hands anyway. It's just that when things go badly for decks like Mythic and Naya they have far better cards on average than Steel. Like it isn't even close. Aggro doesn't need to fly under the radar to win in this format, it just has to have a reasonable game against Fae and Jund. Naya and Mythic do (though admittedly Mythic has a rough time vs. Fae post-board, where as Naya just smashes Fae period).
And yes this deck is amazing and yes I have the results to back it up, I live off of Magic I test constantly and not on MWS, these are not just figments of my imagination as you seem to think...
Sure. Post MODO SN and I'll gladly look up what you've done with it. Or a PTQ you've top eighted. Etc. Etc. You know, tangible results.
Red is doing pretty well right now because it consistently wins on t5 (fast enough to race Omen) and has a natural edge on Faeries by turning Bitterblossom against them. Jund is doing well, because well... it's Jund and people are lazy. Naya does well, but same story there, it can consistently win on T5 since it's guys all hit like mack trucks. Any good Mythic hand wins on T4; 5 if disrupted.
Long story short, all the best decks are either Fae or can win on T5 with good hands anyway. It's just that when things go badly for decks like Mythic and Naya they have far better cards on average than Steel. Like it isn't even close. Aggro doesn't need to fly under the radar to win in this format, it just has to have a reasonable game against Fae and Jund. Naya and Mythic do (though admittedly Mythic has a rough time vs. Fae post-board, where as Naya just smashes Fae period).
Sure. Post MODO SN and I'll gladly look up what you've done with it. Or a PTQ you've top eighted. Etc. Etc. You know, tangible results.
I use MODO strictly for drafting and as far as PTQ's go the season just started...ya know like two weeks ago at most. I havent made it to one yet, I would be in Columbus this weekend but I have to get things around business wise for ATL so I wont have any of these results you request until then, again if I decide to play. The point i have been trying to get at that you just refuse to see is that this deck has hardly been turned and frankly in this slow of a meta a deck that can win t3 (granted extrememly lucky hands) but t4 and t5 consistantly with disruption (something mythic and naya lack) should not be dismissed. I agree pound for pound each of thier creatures is better however naya doesnt have any spells like tempered steel that just flat out win the game when cast and Mythics is far more fragile that TS due to being a creature, and that makes this deck dangerous. I dont see where your having inconsistency with this deck...I guess your just testing with a bad list or something because I dont seem to have issues, mana or draw wise.
We are talking about best hands right? Sure Stell Overseer is nice, but smashing face with Tempered Steel online t2 is just what this deck does best.
well how im talkin is you have steel overseer t1 and tempered steel t2 that way you are smashing face for about 6 on turn 2 i think that would make for a great early game tempo.
And another question i would like answered is why no Arcane Sanctum in the land base.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
And another question i would like answered is why no Arcane Sanctum in the land base.
Like stated ETBT is pretty bad here...I play windbrisk heights and that has proven worth it but otherwise I cant think of a reason I would play another ETBT land. The mana is fine I dont really ever seem to have mana issues mox and drum help alot!
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
Like stated ETBT is pretty bad here...I play windbrisk heights and that has proven worth it but otherwise I cant think of a reason I would play another ETBT land. The mana is fine I dont really ever seem to have mana issues mox and drum help alot!
how many Windbrisk Heights do you run im guessing maybe 2?
I'm skeptical about any ETBT lands in this deck, Windbrisk Heights as well. Next time you cast it and find yourself attacking with 3 guys, ask yourself whether or not you'd already be winning the game without Hideaway.
If the answer is "yes," Windbrisk Heights would be more of a win-more card rather than a solid option, and that's with the added liability of entering the battlefield tapped (or even Hideaway missing something useful!).
I'm skeptical about any ETBT lands in this deck, Windbrisk Heights as well. Next time you cast it and find yourself attacking with 3 guys, ask yourself whether or not you'd already be winning the game without Hideaway.
If the answer is "yes," Windbrisk Heights would be more of a win-more card rather than a solid option, and that's with the added liability of entering the battlefield tapped (or even Hideaway missing something useful!).
Believe me I agree in most decks but when the creatures your attcking with are 0/2's and 1/1's sometimes Windbrisk is exactly what you need. I havent found it to be win more at all honestly exactly the opposite, it wins the games you shouldnt necessarily win due solely to the card advantage.
EDIT: and run 3, best change I have made to that deck by far. You either play it t1 if you have no other play or else you play it t2 when you get your second mana from a mox or springleaf. I truly dont see it slowing me down hardly ever...certainly way less than it helps me win.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
Windbrisk is awesome. You will consistently have it ACTIVE by turn three, when people were perfectly happy using it on turn four after Procession (the words "best combo ever" come to mind). Already you are a turn ahead of Boatbrew, which did a number on Standard. Then you realize that you can have it active as early as turn two. A more consistent Tempered Steel turn two sounds good. If that's "win-more" then I don't know the meaning of win, considering we need a Lord to win in the first place.
*The chances that you can't find a Lord out of the 12 cards you see (8 drawn, 4 from Hideaway) is slim. Even if you don't get a Lord, you will almost always get a (non-land) permanent out of it.
**There is a 1/5 chance that you will see a Lord normally. With Hideaway you are practically guaranteed a Lord, and a way to cast it regardless of your Lands.
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"If you don't wear your seatbelt, the police will shoot you in the head."
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Everyone knows that good luck and good game are such insincere terms that any man who does not connect his right hook with the offender's jaw on the very utterance of such a phrase is no man I would consider as such.
Windbrisk is awesome. You will consistently have it ACTIVE by turn three, when people were perfectly happy using it on turn four after Procession (the words "best combo ever" come to mind). Already you are a turn ahead of Boatbrew, which did a number on Standard. Then you realize that you can have it active as early as turn two. A more consistent Tempered Steel turn two sounds good. If that's "win-more" then I don't know the meaning of win, considering we need a Lord to win in the first place.
*The chances that you can't find a Lord out of the 12 cards you see (8 drawn, 4 from Hideaway) is slim. Even if you don't get a Lord, you will almost always get a (non-land) permanent out of it.
**There is a 1/5 chance that you will see a Lord normally. With Hideaway you are practically guaranteed a Lord, and a way to cast it regardless of your Lands.
Agreed. Glad someone else is realizing how busted that card is in here. Theres limitless changes that needed to be made to the worlds list (again cut Steel Overseer hes not what you want this deck to do.) but once those changes are made I feel this deck is absolutely in the running for tier 1. I guess we will have to see how it goes in ATL next weekend.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
OK question: How come no one has considered Glaze fiend. It seems to have potential to do really well in a deck of all artifacts. Plus we have the potential to get this card online T1. it it mainly just the mana cost and it's P/T when no artifacts or Tempered steel is on the board?
OK question: How come no one has considered Glaze fiend. It seems to have potential to do really well in a deck of all artifacts. Plus we have the potential to get this card online T1. it it mainly just the mana cost and it's P/T when no artifacts or Tempered steel is on the board?
He was actually in on of my lists with esperzoa and borderposts (max value) even then when you were playing two a turn I felt like I had to concentrate on getting him big enough each turn as opposed to being able to do other things, your two drop spot is tight because this deck usually ramps from 1-3 and skips two all together wasting time playing this guy doesnt help you much and he usually gets bolted or something asap anyway. AT least with sculler you get disruption as well. It still seems great in theory (believe me he was one of the guys I was most excited about with this deck theory) but in the end he just comes up short. If he was a 1 drop and didnt have flying he would be incredible but he just doesnt fit the curve well enough.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
I'll certainly be playing it. and if you doubt the usefulness of this spell.... well, good luck! lol. You'll be on the receiving end of it soon enough, when your Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker gets turned into an elephant.
@ marximus: Probably because the list is tight as is? I had a lot of fun with it in block, but Zealous Persecution isn't what I'd call an auto-include in a deck this explosive. I am, however, surprised by the lack of Painsmith; he seems practically custom-made for this deck.
Why aren't people playing Zealous Persecution somewhere in the 75 of these decks?
I play three in the board it is great vs elves, mythic and fae all of which can be pretty close matches except fae which is usually in your favor slightly.. ZP vs mythic is probably your best answer from my experience.
As for Painsmith he is a great card, and maybe some evolution of this deck will be able to utilize him the problem I find is you may have one explosive turn with him, similar to glaze fiend but he usually comes down turn 2 which is akward when we usually drop 3 of our artifacts turn 1. This makes him a dead two drop 2/1 half of your draws and unless you see something like ranger of eos its unlikely you will get enough mileage out of him. Hes another one of those guys that seems great on paper but then you play him and realize he actually forces you to slow down. As well theres nothing I would cut for him we are already lowering are artifact count for Certarch, Seize, TS, and Ranger. Adding anything else would make alot of akward draws.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
Whats everyones opinion of Esper charm? EoT Draw two cards in more fuel, during draw step discard two against control is strong, instant speed enchantment removal against valakut and the mirror is really good.
I currently have them in the steel overseer spot.
Also I've been testing windbrisk and I hated getting it as either my first two land drops, makes for a very slow tempered and if I curve out doesn't let me drop a tempered or master turn 2. As my third land drop, it is pretty nice though...but thats fantasy magic more then anything ;P, of course so is curving out.
Whats everyones opinion of Esper charm? EoT Draw two cards in more fuel, during draw step discard two against control is strong, instant speed enchantment removal against valakut and the mirror is really good.
I currently have them in the steel overseer spot.
Also I've been testing windbrisk and I hated getting it as either my first two land drops, makes for a very slow tempered and if I curve out doesn't let me drop a tempered or master turn 2. As my third land drop, it is pretty nice though...but thats fantasy magic more then anything ;P, of course so is curving out.
I have really been looking for a spot for Charm in my 75. It has been slipping in and out with lodestone golem as a two of but I just find Golem better. The only matchup I really want charm vs is wargate and though its helpful lodestone turn 3 is usually a better threat vs almost everything else, specially with the lack of bolt in the format.
As for Windbrisk, I cant say I find myself having the same problems in fact it makes akward hands such as ornithopter memnite court homunulus and a few non creature non TS spells far more keepable knowing you get to dig 4 deeper.
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Quote from mastab3690 »
yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
I think sculler is a great card, i mean, its great against faeries/control/combo, as long as they dont play leyline of sanctity. Still, leyline is getting too popular even as a maindeck card, so maybe discard is not that strong anymore.
I have really been looking for a spot for Charm in my 75. It has been slipping in and out with lodestone golem as a two of but I just find Golem better. The only matchup I really want charm vs is wargate and though its helpful lodestone turn 3 is usually a better threat vs almost everything else, specially with the lack of bolt in the format.
As for Windbrisk, I cant say I find myself having the same problems in fact it makes akward hands such as ornithopter memnite court homunulus and a few non creature non TS spells far more keepable knowing you get to dig 4 deeper.
How many Lodestone Golems do you run? Seems clunky, I can see on the play it making a difference on turn 3.
How many Lodestone Golems do you run? Seems clunky, I can see on the play it making a difference on turn 3.
I only run two, You could replace them with the fourth Ranger and fourth ceratarch and I would if you have a heavy aggro metagame. As far as at a major event though you want him. Hes a beatstick first off survives fallout from the gate and doesnt slow you down much at all if you play properly. It keeps fae of being able to get to that crucial 6 mana to mistbind and have CS backup and can be just what you need in addition with seize and sculler to give yourself that one extra turn to win. He is defiently the first on the chopping block but I have tried card draw, discard, smaller guys and he seems to be the best for the spot. My second choices would be dark tutelage or esper charm if you really dont like him.
Tezz is insane enough said, he will be replacing the Lodestones when the time comes and probably 1 other card though im undecided as to what. He is exactly what this deck needed card draw (reach), more bodies after wrath (he can turn a mox into a 5/5 permanently and it still swing the turn you activate him) and an additional win condition (most of the games I find myself losing my opponent is at 4-6 life making him a must answer card for almost everyone else. I think he single handedly may make this deck not only tier 1 but a consistant t8 at major events.
As for Revoker, he seems fine if theres actually in cards in the format with activated abilities that scare us, I cant really think of much right now but perhaps im missing something?
EDIT: and as for the poster who mention Vedalken Outlander, hes not worth it fallout shouldnt be to big of an issue for this deck. You have the discard to deal with it an addition to 8 lords that take your guys out of range, sacrificing a 2 drop spot to a grizzly bear is not ideal. I even cut forge tender from the board cause I was finding that fallout just wasnt doing much vs me in the first place.
This has been working great with 3 Mox and 3 Drum. Havent had mana issues outside of the average screw etc since I dropped down to 17 from 19.
EDIT: @TPC yea the guy is honestly the stone cold nuts for this deck, he's everything we could want for a planeswalker and will surely be a 3 of in almost everyones list.
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yes turning of the tide that was a nice, props on breaking the deck
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Red is doing pretty well right now because it consistently wins on t5 (fast enough to race Omen) and has a natural edge on Faeries by turning Bitterblossom against them. Jund is doing well, because well... it's Jund and people are lazy. Naya does well, but same story there, it can consistently win on T5 since it's guys all hit like mack trucks. Any good Mythic hand wins on T4; 5 if disrupted.
Long story short, all the best decks are either Fae or can win on T5 with good hands anyway. It's just that when things go badly for decks like Mythic and Naya they have far better cards on average than Steel. Like it isn't even close. Aggro doesn't need to fly under the radar to win in this format, it just has to have a reasonable game against Fae and Jund. Naya and Mythic do (though admittedly Mythic has a rough time vs. Fae post-board, where as Naya just smashes Fae period).
Sure. Post MODO SN and I'll gladly look up what you've done with it. Or a PTQ you've top eighted. Etc. Etc. You know, tangible results.
I use MODO strictly for drafting and as far as PTQ's go the season just started...ya know like two weeks ago at most. I havent made it to one yet, I would be in Columbus this weekend but I have to get things around business wise for ATL so I wont have any of these results you request until then, again if I decide to play. The point i have been trying to get at that you just refuse to see is that this deck has hardly been turned and frankly in this slow of a meta a deck that can win t3 (granted extrememly lucky hands) but t4 and t5 consistantly with disruption (something mythic and naya lack) should not be dismissed. I agree pound for pound each of thier creatures is better however naya doesnt have any spells like tempered steel that just flat out win the game when cast and Mythics is far more fragile that TS due to being a creature, and that makes this deck dangerous. I dont see where your having inconsistency with this deck...I guess your just testing with a bad list or something because I dont seem to have issues, mana or draw wise.
Any Ideas?
well how im talkin is you have steel overseer t1 and tempered steel t2 that way you are smashing face for about 6 on turn 2 i think that would make for a great early game tempo.
And another question i would like answered is why no Arcane Sanctum in the land base.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Like stated ETBT is pretty bad here...I play windbrisk heights and that has proven worth it but otherwise I cant think of a reason I would play another ETBT land. The mana is fine I dont really ever seem to have mana issues mox and drum help alot!
how many Windbrisk Heights do you run im guessing maybe 2?
If the answer is "yes," Windbrisk Heights would be more of a win-more card rather than a solid option, and that's with the added liability of entering the battlefield tapped (or even Hideaway missing something useful!).
Believe me I agree in most decks but when the creatures your attcking with are 0/2's and 1/1's sometimes Windbrisk is exactly what you need. I havent found it to be win more at all honestly exactly the opposite, it wins the games you shouldnt necessarily win due solely to the card advantage.
EDIT: and run 3, best change I have made to that deck by far. You either play it t1 if you have no other play or else you play it t2 when you get your second mana from a mox or springleaf. I truly dont see it slowing me down hardly ever...certainly way less than it helps me win.
*The chances that you can't find a Lord out of the 12 cards you see (8 drawn, 4 from Hideaway) is slim. Even if you don't get a Lord, you will almost always get a (non-land) permanent out of it.
**There is a 1/5 chance that you will see a Lord normally. With Hideaway you are practically guaranteed a Lord, and a way to cast it regardless of your Lands.
- To my youngest sister when she was 6.
Agreed. Glad someone else is realizing how busted that card is in here. Theres limitless changes that needed to be made to the worlds list (again cut Steel Overseer hes not what you want this deck to do.) but once those changes are made I feel this deck is absolutely in the running for tier 1. I guess we will have to see how it goes in ATL next weekend.
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He was actually in on of my lists with esperzoa and borderposts (max value) even then when you were playing two a turn I felt like I had to concentrate on getting him big enough each turn as opposed to being able to do other things, your two drop spot is tight because this deck usually ramps from 1-3 and skips two all together wasting time playing this guy doesnt help you much and he usually gets bolted or something asap anyway. AT least with sculler you get disruption as well. It still seems great in theory (believe me he was one of the guys I was most excited about with this deck theory) but in the end he just comes up short. If he was a 1 drop and didnt have flying he would be incredible but he just doesnt fit the curve well enough.
I play three in the board it is great vs elves, mythic and fae all of which can be pretty close matches except fae which is usually in your favor slightly.. ZP vs mythic is probably your best answer from my experience.
As for Painsmith he is a great card, and maybe some evolution of this deck will be able to utilize him the problem I find is you may have one explosive turn with him, similar to glaze fiend but he usually comes down turn 2 which is akward when we usually drop 3 of our artifacts turn 1. This makes him a dead two drop 2/1 half of your draws and unless you see something like ranger of eos its unlikely you will get enough mileage out of him. Hes another one of those guys that seems great on paper but then you play him and realize he actually forces you to slow down. As well theres nothing I would cut for him we are already lowering are artifact count for Certarch, Seize, TS, and Ranger. Adding anything else would make alot of akward draws.
I currently have them in the steel overseer spot.
Also I've been testing windbrisk and I hated getting it as either my first two land drops, makes for a very slow tempered and if I curve out doesn't let me drop a tempered or master turn 2. As my third land drop, it is pretty nice though...but thats fantasy magic more then anything ;P, of course so is curving out.
I have really been looking for a spot for Charm in my 75. It has been slipping in and out with lodestone golem as a two of but I just find Golem better. The only matchup I really want charm vs is wargate and though its helpful lodestone turn 3 is usually a better threat vs almost everything else, specially with the lack of bolt in the format.
As for Windbrisk, I cant say I find myself having the same problems in fact it makes akward hands such as ornithopter memnite court homunulus and a few non creature non TS spells far more keepable knowing you get to dig 4 deeper.
How many Lodestone Golems do you run? Seems clunky, I can see on the play it making a difference on turn 3.
I only run two, You could replace them with the fourth Ranger and fourth ceratarch and I would if you have a heavy aggro metagame. As far as at a major event though you want him. Hes a beatstick first off survives fallout from the gate and doesnt slow you down much at all if you play properly. It keeps fae of being able to get to that crucial 6 mana to mistbind and have CS backup and can be just what you need in addition with seize and sculler to give yourself that one extra turn to win. He is defiently the first on the chopping block but I have tried card draw, discard, smaller guys and he seems to be the best for the spot. My second choices would be dark tutelage or esper charm if you really dont like him.
Tezz is insane enough said, he will be replacing the Lodestones when the time comes and probably 1 other card though im undecided as to what. He is exactly what this deck needed card draw (reach), more bodies after wrath (he can turn a mox into a 5/5 permanently and it still swing the turn you activate him) and an additional win condition (most of the games I find myself losing my opponent is at 4-6 life making him a must answer card for almost everyone else. I think he single handedly may make this deck not only tier 1 but a consistant t8 at major events.
As for Revoker, he seems fine if theres actually in cards in the format with activated abilities that scare us, I cant really think of much right now but perhaps im missing something?
EDIT: and as for the poster who mention Vedalken Outlander, hes not worth it fallout shouldnt be to big of an issue for this deck. You have the discard to deal with it an addition to 8 lords that take your guys out of range, sacrificing a 2 drop spot to a grizzly bear is not ideal. I even cut forge tender from the board cause I was finding that fallout just wasnt doing much vs me in the first place.
Also the original list had 17 which I feel is at least 1 less than it should be.
Then picture dropping him T3, grabbing a card, and using his ultimate T4 with our entire hand on the board.
Yeah.
Modern: U Merfolk (in progress)
Legacy: RBurn
I run 17. My mana base is
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Darkslick Shores
3 Windbrish Heights
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
This has been working great with 3 Mox and 3 Drum. Havent had mana issues outside of the average screw etc since I dropped down to 17 from 19.
EDIT: @TPC yea the guy is honestly the stone cold nuts for this deck, he's everything we could want for a planeswalker and will surely be a 3 of in almost everyones list.