I played 16 game ones with a 4 scion list against a pretty stock wargate list with MD leylines, and won 10. Haven't tested that much after boarding yet because sideboards for both decks vary wildly.
Generally I think it is a pretty good matchup since all your threats have flash and they don't have that many ways to deal with the pressure other than trying to combo before they've really sculpted their hand and developed their mana base to try to force through an important spell.
I mean sometimes they have a turn 2 omen on the play and mise a valakut or two, then it gets pretty tough, but you have cryptics and tectonic edges to try to fight through enough.
Also, suprisingly, I was never really that impressed with thoughtseize even when he didn't have a leyline. There is a ton of redundancy and library manipulation that their hands are rarely all-in on one card, though it does happen. I can post respective lists if your interested.
yea harbringer is (and im quating the article) good vs control. wich is already our better matchups. if you read the article he goes to g3 in every round and on 3-4 ocasions in the g3 the oponent got mana screwed. not saying its bad but against aggro on t4 i actually want to be playing something game changing not tutoring for it (against control you have time)
So I was digging the new Sphinx spoiled for Standard, comparing it to its fellow six-drops (Titans and Wurmcoil) and all that fun jazz people do with new cards and it got me brainstorming. Why not Frost Titan as that six-drop coming out of the board instead of Wurmcoil? It's still pretty difficult to remove with that Spell Pierce protection ability and, though it lacks the lifegain, it can effectively block two things if you tap a dude (including Flyers). It can also colorscrew and it's a way to stay ahead of the metagame adapting with Wurm hosers like Deglamer as a response.
It doesn't stop Stag racing, so maybe not, but I thought it was kind of a cool idea...
the reason wurmcoil is even there is because it contributes all three necessary functions vs the current aggro meta. gains life, resilient and blocks stag. the next best thing is grave titan as it sets up a defense
Leave for Atlanta tomorrow. One more night of testing to go. Here's were I stand.
Read on metagame: A week or so ago faeries is announced as best deck in format. The meta has reacted as I hoped it would following my original fright. Players started packing more sideboard hate and continued to lose. Then they started choosing new decks that were better suited to beat faeries. Naya, G/W Trap, and RDW rise in popularity. Two things are now happening that are good for us.
#1 Faeries is still on peoples mind, but in the back of it. Their decks are naturally good against it and it is declining in numbers. Naya players are starting to tweak their decks to beat the mirror and are getting softer against Faeries giving us back the little edge we need to steal games.
#2 U/W Control is gaining more momentum as a foil to Naya and RDW. U/W Control continues to be a good matchup.
This is exactly where I hoped the meta would be leading into Atlanta. This is based off what I'm seeing at local PTQ's, playtesting session, and recent results recorded online. If my read is accurate Faeries is well positioned for this weekend.
Deck: Removal suite increased and tuned to kill the creatures in Naya, not Jund or Faeries. Coincidentally it's the same as Randle's worlds list. Go figure. New sideboarding technique and creature configuration. No longer reliant on Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the Aggro matces. It's clever. I like it. Not sure it's correct.
So the deck is now setup to swap in and out Creature Couplets, Walls and Wurms, Board Sweepers, and Jaces to create an optimal build for games two and three without overly diluting the main strategy of the deck. I had to cut the agony warps for Smothers and Doom Blades because I needed cards that could kill KotR 100% of the time and having Agony Warp, Doom Blade, and Smother just took up too much space.
Two things I have my eye on: I'm having some trouble with all my duals coming into play tapped in the midgame. I've lost more games than I'm comfortable with due to my 4th or 5th (especially after 4th gets Tectonic Edged) land CIPT and not being able to cast my CC/Mistbind. Thinking about fitting a Drowned Catacombs or two in. Probablly over a Creeping Tarpit. Maybe a Tectonic Edge. The other thing is Thoughtseize. Some number have been getting sideboarded out A LOT and I think they are worse in the current metagame then they used to be. Considering cutting one or two of them. Maybe even something like -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Mana Leak, -1 Spellstutter Sprite, + 2 Scion of Oona, +1 Vendilion Clique. Every time I've tried to cut a SSS or a Leak I've added them back in minutes later. Just don't like it.
Well that's all for now. Good luck to anyone playing in a PTQ or the GP this weekend.
go down to 3 creeping tar pit and go to 3 swamps. even a third sunken ruins is better then drowned catacombs.
the list looks solid man. i would cut 1 thoughtsieze and 1 manalaek (not the best on the draw) for the 3rd and 4th scion as they help the turn form control to aggro vs aggro decks so much. its been key in my jund matchups
Im not very sure on faeries, havent been playing this deck for long, but i cant imagine playing it with less than 3 vendilions, 4 mistbinds, 4 Spellstutters. Thats about creatures. Im not very sure on scion... it looks to me a weak card by itself, but it's still playable at instant speed which is always great, so... might be a good call.
the majority of decks are stuggling to keep up with the fast passe of the aggro decks with out scion which is why i think they are being played again. but yea 0 or 4 imho
Didn't Creeping Tar Pits get up'd to 4 because of how good they are in the mirror? And if that's the case, and the mirror should be less common, why not go back down to three?
go down to 3 creeping tar pit and go to 3 swamps. even a third sunken ruins is better then drowned catacombs.
the list looks solid man. i would cut 1 thoughtsieze and 1 manalaek (not the best on the draw) for the 3rd and 4th scion as they help the turn form control to aggro vs aggro decks so much. its been key in my jund matchups
Thanks dark, I tested the -1 TS -1 ML +2 Scion tonight against Naya. Played around 20 games, slightly over half post board. Replaced Scions with +1 TS and +1 Puppeteer Clique in the board. Won almost exactly 50% overall. Maindeck ran well. I think i'm going to keep the changes for Atlanta. Not sure on the Puppeteer Clique. I drew it twice. Once I drew an Infest, Consume the Meek, Sower, and Wurmcoil Engine and Naya didn't draw any vengevines that game anyway. The 2nd time I had no removal spells for his fauna shamans (yea, 2) but I had the line of spellstutter, mistbind, clique, wurmcoil setup but he killed me on turn 4. So idk about him. Infest, Consume the Meek, and Sower were all awesome.
Didn't change the mana base, and the same issue did arise a couple of more times tonight. Not sure what i'm gonna do there. Thanks again.
Is Mimic Vat a viable maindeck option, or is it a jank suggestion? I was thinking with more mirrors and people playing more red based aggro and VCheese maindeck, perhaps Mimic Vat as a 2 of could be a viable way tech the deck without dilluting it. I currently have 2 Baby Jace in my flex slot, but was considering adding Mimic Vat in his place. Is it win more? I keep thinking about the ability to put Faeries that die to removal or due to combat on the Vat.
has anyone tried Pestermite ? Maybe not good on the mirror, but I can see it being valuable against some aggro decks like jund or rdw (turn 3, they tap for ram-gang, ball lightning, or turn 4 elf, etc, before they attack you tap their creature). Specially awesome against hells thunder / ball lightning / hellspark elemental. And it hits 2 the next turn, which is somewhat aggressive. Has anyone actually tried it?
So I scrubbed out in the GP going 3-3. I did however manage to top 8 the almost 300 man PTQ the next day with a tweaked list, deciding to jack a little ChannelFireball tech after seeing them all do so well with it on day one. For the PTQ my list was:
The stolen tech were the Nighthawks. I also adopted the maindeck 3/1 TS/IoK split, 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Grasp of Darkness.
I cut the 2nd Tectonic Edge for a third Sunken Ruins. I felt I needed a third Ruins for the Grasps and just couldn't see playing less than four Tarpits. They just win so many games. Tectonic Edge also wasn't terribly impressive in the GP for me and I had lots of problems with not having enough colored mana so I cut it. I missed it in the PTQ. I think the truth is my draws were just terrible on Saturday and I am going to try to work the 2nd Tectonic Edge back in. Maybe in the board. I didn't mind having three Ruins at all.
LSV posted his list on CFB today. He ran the full 6 colorless lands and only 2 Ruins so maybe its fine. I think I am going to replace the Grasp in the SB with a Doom Blade or Death Mark anyway. I lost in the top eight, game three against Naya because he ripped a Tec Edge of the top after I played my 2nd Nighthawk, taking away my 2nd dual land, stranding a Grasp in my hand. I also had Jace and Sower. My next draws were Wurmcoil, Grasp, and I died with a hand full of Bombs. Sad story. LSV also said he didn't like Consume the Meek because it was too slow and swingy and didn't even mention Infest. I have criticized both in the past, and they are flawed in theory, but in practice every time I've cast each of those spells it's been a huge blowout, for what it's worth.
I will also be going down to one Glen Elendra in the board. Pretty much she's good, but not that good. And I only like her on the play where your more likely to be ahead in the game.
I beat two mirror's on the day. Jace won both games in one of them, and I won some tight, pretty standard games in the other. I lost to the third mirror I play'd mainly because he drew opening hand discard/double Bitterblossom all three games, but he was also packing 4 Peppersmoke 4 Spreading Seas which I found interesting. The seas were just there to win the manland war, and although they did offer me some windows to resolve some topdecked spells, they did indeed shut down me manlands. He had 6 discard effects after board too. I lost a mirror match in the GP because I got blown out by a Sower on my Scion in game three. I wasn't bringing in Sower's against faeries until after that point. I am now.
Only having two Scions was fine. They were good when I drew them and I never had my hand cluttered with them. I think four is still fine, three might be better, and two was good. I wouldn't play zero at this point, but I don't think there is room for four Scions and 2 Jaces. Maybe if the format leans toward Valakut and away from Naya like decks you can trim some removal for them, but even then more Vendilion/Counterspells is probably better.
Maybe it's just me, I've never had any luck with Scions. At least Stutter without BB can counter cheap spells, like removal and other counters. Chances are you're already winning if you have BB tokens flowing in uninterrupted and Scion is worthless on its own but as another Mistbind champion. Good trump in the mirror but then it gets assed by any removal, including silly Peppersmoke, so that's kinda lame.
I've never minded having three Sunken Ruins either, though. All the writers seem to dog on it but they're just another dual for the most part and they sometimes actually do their job of filtering your basics to the other color. (Swamp into Cryptic, Island into Grasp and some SB removal options.) The only other alternative, Drowned Catacomb, is not particularly more appealing since it'll frequently enter tapped. That's probably liable to screw you as often as Sunken Ruins or Basic land colorscrew... so meh. Vendilion you wouldn't want to play a full playset because it's Legendary, what of more black discard? They're no more limited than Spell Pierce.
No I wouldn't play 4 Vendilions, but im at 2 right now so I would consider adding a third. Vendilion is excellent against Scapeshift.
A sixth discard spell is a good option. If I had to choose now I'd replace the 2nd Glen Elendra with a Deprive. What I want is a Flashfreeze for the R/G Scapeshift match up since they're frequently on the get 6 mana Titan, 7 mana Scapeshift with Mana Leak mana up but its too narrow for me. Deprive isn't great at countering ramp spells like negate and flashfreeze, but it can counter Scapeshift and Primeval Titan at any point in the game, and also gives you an extra hard counter vs other blue decks.
This seems seriously good against Demigod of Revenge, Vengevine, and Necrotic Ooze. I'm sure it has other applications, and does very much for so little. Of course hard to find the space I'm sure, but seems like a fairly good counter to these listed strategies. Happy brewin
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Currently playing:
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House
^Traitor. Leyline is probably the best graveyard hoser of all time. I don't know if fae can dedicate a full 4 spots in the board for that though, most lists are pretty packed already. But the recursion strategies are very good vs fae, one of the few time-tested strategies that have always worked against the little UB fliers, so it does kinda surprise me that most lists have little to no GY hate in the boards. Can anyone enlighten us as to why that is? Purely spacial reasons?
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I might be apt to run Nihil Spellbomb, since it cantrips and doesn't blow chunks if you don't see it opening hand. I'm guessing most people don't pack any GY hate just because GY recursion isn't very common, though. Outside of Demigod in Jund, there ain't anything else scary coming out of the GY since Ooze decks fell off the map. Just as well, I'd rather pack more removal to snuff out early Fauna Shaman pitching Demigods and/or Vengevines to the 'yard and removal has far more general applications anyway.
I think Relic of Progenitus is better than Nihil Spellbomb (it puts in way more work, shrinks KotR, removes Vengevines, Demigods, etc, and it can do the job more than once. And if you need to you can still cantrip it. Faeries doesn't care about its graveyard) and I think Faerie Macabre may be better than Puppeteer Clique. If not, it's at least worth considering. Everyone seems to have forgotten about that card. Puppeteer Clique seems awesome but I had two problems with him. 1) 1 removes creatures from the graveyard at sorcery speed. I found my opponents chaining Vengevines/Demigods at the end of my turn, or returning them after combat more often than I liked. 2)It cost 5 mana. I was already boarding in 2 Wurmcoil Engines, 1 Consume the Meek, 2 Sower of Temptation, and at times a Consuming Vapors. My curve was getting way too high post board, and it was making my mulligans especially rough. Faeries Macabre costs zero, at instant speed, or if the game state calls it for you can cast it for three and attack or block. In the end I decided attacking the graveyard wasn't the way to beat Naya and Jund.
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Special thanks to High~Light Studios for the sig.
My trade thread: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=279327
I played 16 game ones with a 4 scion list against a pretty stock wargate list with MD leylines, and won 10. Haven't tested that much after boarding yet because sideboards for both decks vary wildly.
Generally I think it is a pretty good matchup since all your threats have flash and they don't have that many ways to deal with the pressure other than trying to combo before they've really sculpted their hand and developed their mana base to try to force through an important spell.
I mean sometimes they have a turn 2 omen on the play and mise a valakut or two, then it gets pretty tough, but you have cryptics and tectonic edges to try to fight through enough.
Also, suprisingly, I was never really that impressed with thoughtseize even when he didn't have a leyline. There is a ton of redundancy and library manipulation that their hands are rarely all-in on one card, though it does happen. I can post respective lists if your interested.
http://forum.tcgplayer.com/entry.php?3873-A-Boy-and-His-Harbinger-A-PTQ-Report-*1st*
Faerie Harbinger ftw
It doesn't stop Stag racing, so maybe not, but I thought it was kind of a cool idea...
Leave for Atlanta tomorrow. One more night of testing to go. Here's were I stand.
Read on metagame: A week or so ago faeries is announced as best deck in format. The meta has reacted as I hoped it would following my original fright. Players started packing more sideboard hate and continued to lose. Then they started choosing new decks that were better suited to beat faeries. Naya, G/W Trap, and RDW rise in popularity. Two things are now happening that are good for us.
#1 Faeries is still on peoples mind, but in the back of it. Their decks are naturally good against it and it is declining in numbers. Naya players are starting to tweak their decks to beat the mirror and are getting softer against Faeries giving us back the little edge we need to steal games.
#2 U/W Control is gaining more momentum as a foil to Naya and RDW. U/W Control continues to be a good matchup.
This is exactly where I hoped the meta would be leading into Atlanta. This is based off what I'm seeing at local PTQ's, playtesting session, and recent results recorded online. If my read is accurate Faeries is well positioned for this weekend.
Deck: Removal suite increased and tuned to kill the creatures in Naya, not Jund or Faeries. Coincidentally it's the same as Randle's worlds list. Go figure. New sideboarding technique and creature configuration. No longer reliant on Jace, the Mind Sculptor in the Aggro matces. It's clever. I like it. Not sure it's correct.
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Scion of Oona
4 Mistbind Clique
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4 Thoughtseize
4 Mana Leak
4 Bitterblossom
4 Cryptic Command
3 Disfigure
2 Smother
1 Doom Blade
4 Mutavault
4 Creeping Tarpit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Secluded Glen
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Island
2 Swamp
2 Scion of Oona
2 Sower pf Temptation
2 Glen Elendra Aarchmage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Wall of Tanglecord
2 Jace Beleren
1 Infest
1 Consume the Meek
So the deck is now setup to swap in and out Creature Couplets, Walls and Wurms, Board Sweepers, and Jaces to create an optimal build for games two and three without overly diluting the main strategy of the deck. I had to cut the agony warps for Smothers and Doom Blades because I needed cards that could kill KotR 100% of the time and having Agony Warp, Doom Blade, and Smother just took up too much space.
Two things I have my eye on: I'm having some trouble with all my duals coming into play tapped in the midgame. I've lost more games than I'm comfortable with due to my 4th or 5th (especially after 4th gets Tectonic Edged) land CIPT and not being able to cast my CC/Mistbind. Thinking about fitting a Drowned Catacombs or two in. Probablly over a Creeping Tarpit. Maybe a Tectonic Edge. The other thing is Thoughtseize. Some number have been getting sideboarded out A LOT and I think they are worse in the current metagame then they used to be. Considering cutting one or two of them. Maybe even something like -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Mana Leak, -1 Spellstutter Sprite, + 2 Scion of Oona, +1 Vendilion Clique. Every time I've tried to cut a SSS or a Leak I've added them back in minutes later. Just don't like it.
Well that's all for now. Good luck to anyone playing in a PTQ or the GP this weekend.
the list looks solid man. i would cut 1 thoughtsieze and 1 manalaek (not the best on the draw) for the 3rd and 4th scion as they help the turn form control to aggro vs aggro decks so much. its been key in my jund matchups
Thanks dark, I tested the -1 TS -1 ML +2 Scion tonight against Naya. Played around 20 games, slightly over half post board. Replaced Scions with +1 TS and +1 Puppeteer Clique in the board. Won almost exactly 50% overall. Maindeck ran well. I think i'm going to keep the changes for Atlanta. Not sure on the Puppeteer Clique. I drew it twice. Once I drew an Infest, Consume the Meek, Sower, and Wurmcoil Engine and Naya didn't draw any vengevines that game anyway. The 2nd time I had no removal spells for his fauna shamans (yea, 2) but I had the line of spellstutter, mistbind, clique, wurmcoil setup but he killed me on turn 4. So idk about him. Infest, Consume the Meek, and Sower were all awesome.
Didn't change the mana base, and the same issue did arise a couple of more times tonight. Not sure what i'm gonna do there. Thanks again.
good luck for the tourny maker, not like you need it you are playing faeries
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Scion of Oona
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
3 Thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Disfigure
1 Grasp of Darkness
1 Smother
1 Agony Warp
4 Creeping Tarpit
4 Darkslick Shores
4 Secluded Glen
3 Sunken Ruins
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Island
2 Swamp
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Wall of Tanglecord
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Sower of Temptation
1 Consume the Meek
1 Infest
1 Grasp of Darkness
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Spell Pierce
1 Thoughtseize
The stolen tech were the Nighthawks. I also adopted the maindeck 3/1 TS/IoK split, 2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and Grasp of Darkness.
I cut the 2nd Tectonic Edge for a third Sunken Ruins. I felt I needed a third Ruins for the Grasps and just couldn't see playing less than four Tarpits. They just win so many games. Tectonic Edge also wasn't terribly impressive in the GP for me and I had lots of problems with not having enough colored mana so I cut it. I missed it in the PTQ. I think the truth is my draws were just terrible on Saturday and I am going to try to work the 2nd Tectonic Edge back in. Maybe in the board. I didn't mind having three Ruins at all.
LSV posted his list on CFB today. He ran the full 6 colorless lands and only 2 Ruins so maybe its fine. I think I am going to replace the Grasp in the SB with a Doom Blade or Death Mark anyway. I lost in the top eight, game three against Naya because he ripped a Tec Edge of the top after I played my 2nd Nighthawk, taking away my 2nd dual land, stranding a Grasp in my hand. I also had Jace and Sower. My next draws were Wurmcoil, Grasp, and I died with a hand full of Bombs. Sad story. LSV also said he didn't like Consume the Meek because it was too slow and swingy and didn't even mention Infest. I have criticized both in the past, and they are flawed in theory, but in practice every time I've cast each of those spells it's been a huge blowout, for what it's worth.
I will also be going down to one Glen Elendra in the board. Pretty much she's good, but not that good. And I only like her on the play where your more likely to be ahead in the game.
I beat two mirror's on the day. Jace won both games in one of them, and I won some tight, pretty standard games in the other. I lost to the third mirror I play'd mainly because he drew opening hand discard/double Bitterblossom all three games, but he was also packing 4 Peppersmoke 4 Spreading Seas which I found interesting. The seas were just there to win the manland war, and although they did offer me some windows to resolve some topdecked spells, they did indeed shut down me manlands. He had 6 discard effects after board too. I lost a mirror match in the GP because I got blown out by a Sower on my Scion in game three. I wasn't bringing in Sower's against faeries until after that point. I am now.
Only having two Scions was fine. They were good when I drew them and I never had my hand cluttered with them. I think four is still fine, three might be better, and two was good. I wouldn't play zero at this point, but I don't think there is room for four Scions and 2 Jaces. Maybe if the format leans toward Valakut and away from Naya like decks you can trim some removal for them, but even then more Vendilion/Counterspells is probably better.
Well that's it for now, cya later.
I've never minded having three Sunken Ruins either, though. All the writers seem to dog on it but they're just another dual for the most part and they sometimes actually do their job of filtering your basics to the other color. (Swamp into Cryptic, Island into Grasp and some SB removal options.) The only other alternative, Drowned Catacomb, is not particularly more appealing since it'll frequently enter tapped. That's probably liable to screw you as often as Sunken Ruins or Basic land colorscrew... so meh. Vendilion you wouldn't want to play a full playset because it's Legendary, what of more black discard? They're no more limited than Spell Pierce.
A sixth discard spell is a good option. If I had to choose now I'd replace the 2nd Glen Elendra with a Deprive. What I want is a Flashfreeze for the R/G Scapeshift match up since they're frequently on the get 6 mana Titan, 7 mana Scapeshift with Mana Leak mana up but its too narrow for me. Deprive isn't great at countering ramp spells like negate and flashfreeze, but it can counter Scapeshift and Primeval Titan at any point in the game, and also gives you an extra hard counter vs other blue decks.
p.s Zombie Outlander vs Jund and Naya?
Leyline of the Void.
This seems seriously good against Demigod of Revenge, Vengevine, and Necrotic Ooze. I'm sure it has other applications, and does very much for so little. Of course hard to find the space I'm sure, but seems like a fairly good counter to these listed strategies. Happy brewin
Venser Control/ Mimic Allies
Valakut Titan Stole My House